Van Heusen Aviator shirt and epaulets

[OldSalt]

Hi folks,

I just received a short sleeve aviator shirt from Vanguard and also a set of the large CAP grey rank epaulet sleeves and it appears that the shirt epaulets are too long (or the sleeves are too short) for the shirt. With grey sleeves on, the shirt epaulets "puff-up" so it looks like I have half-loops rising off the shoulders rather than lying flat across the shoulders like they should. Vanguard says I have the correct shirt and the correct grey sleeves by part number.

Has anyone else had this problem? Is it a defect in the shirt, or is this just the way it is? Should I try a different brand shirt that has shorter epaulets so I don't look like a fool?

Thanks.

[jimmydeanno]

It tends to happen with smaller sizes.  The bigger your shoulders are, the bigger the epaulets are.  Most of the time, the most affected are women, because they tend to be more petite by nature.

I have seen some people modify the epaulet sleeves by shortening the end that says "CAP" - however, it does tend to make it look a bit awkward, in that the CAP is now really close to the edge.

[davidsinn]

Vanguard does make female sleeves now that appear to be shorter. You might try a pair of those.

[Eclipse]

Are you using epaulet shapers?  These help a lot with this issue.

I could understand if the epaulet was too short for the sleeve how they would puff, but not if the epaulet was too long.

[Al Sayre]

If the epaulettes lay flat without the epaulette sleeves on with your arms at your sides, then try moving the epaulette sleeves in about 1/2 inch or so from the shoulder seam. they should then lay down normally.  If the epaulettes loop up without the sleeves and your arms at your sides, it sounds like a defective shirt. 

[OldSalt]

If the epaulettes lay flat without the epaulette sleeves on with your arms at your sides, then try moving the epaulette sleeves in about 1/2 inch or so from the shoulder seam. they should then lay down normally.  If the epaulettes loop up without the sleeves and your arms at your sides, it sounds like a defective shirt.

Thanks, I'll try it out this evening and see.

[Al Sayre]

Good luck, and welcome to Captalk.

[OldSalt]

Ok, tried the suggestions and it looks like the shirt size may be a little large - the shoulder seam is about 1/4" - 1/2" below my shoulder point, so with the rank sleeve pushed down to the seam, it bows up. If I move it up towards the neck a 1/2" or so, then it flattens out a bit. However, the epaulettes on the shirt still seem a bit too long for the sleeve. The sleeves I got from Vanguard are about 4" long and the shirt epaulettes are at least 6" long.

To get the sleeves and epaulettes to lay flat across the shoulder I have to slide the sleeves up almost 3/4"-1" which doesn't look right. I have an older aviator shirt from Pilotshirts.com and the epaulettes on that shirt are significantly shorter, about 5" total.

So now I have 2 questions, first is what is the normal size for the senior male rank sleeves? It seems in the sample pictures in 39-1 that the sleeves they're wearing are longer than 4" and cover almost the full epaulette.

Second, if the sleeves are the correct size, is it acceptable to use a different brand aviator shirt than the Van Heusen if the overall styling (color, pockets, sleeves, etc.) are essentially the same, but the fabric material may be a little different - all cotton rather than polyester cotton blend? 39-1 doesn't seem to specify a specific brand or fabric type unless I'm mistaken.

Thanks in advance for any assistance or advice.

[AlphaSigOU]

There is no specification for the white shirt, only that it is an 'aviator' shirt with epaulets and pocket flaps. It's no coincidence that Van Heusen makes a shirt called the 'Aviator'.

I personally prefer the shirts made by Pilot House, since the shirt pockets and flaps are similar in style to the ligsht blue AF-style shirt. The 'beefy oxford' cloth looks better than the poplin used on the VH Aviator. Epaulet shapers do help the shoulder marks to lay down better.

[OldSalt]

I personally prefer the shirts made by Pilot House, since the shirt pockets and flaps are similar in style to the ligsht blue AF-style shirt.

Thanks. Yes, I really like the "Beefy Oxford" cloth myself - especially in colder weather. The "older" shirt I was talking about is this one: https://www.pilotshirts.com/prodinfo.asp?number=ROFS and I use it for another organization's uniform, but I was wondering about the pocket pleats. I think the pleats look much more "uniform like" than the plain pockets and do mimic the AF-Style shirts.

Are having the pleats acceptable for the Corporate grays? If so, I think I have my answer.
I do have the epaulette shapers...what gives the best results - wearing them inside the sleeve under the epaulette or over, or does it really matter?

Thanks.

[Eclipse]

I do have the epaulette shapers...what gives the best results - wearing them inside the sleeve under the epaulette or over, or does it really matter?

Under the epaulet at the shoulder and over it at the button (side). This essentially locks the sleeve in place and prevents the shaper from moving or peeking out under the sleeve.

If I can find the thread I posted a photo a while back.

Found the thread, now have to restore the pics...

As mentioned, military epaulet sleeves are significantly smaller than CAP ones, the shapers help keep the
epaulet from being bunched inside (YMMV based on how wide the shirts epaulets actually are).


Below the epaulet sleeves are the two different types of shapers I have. I prefer the ones on the left, as the ones on the right
came with little white vinyl ends that always get lost quickly (never found it matters).  I believe the type on the right came from MCSS, no idea on the left (I have 2-3 pairs of each type, including some on my service coat, sweater, and jacket that rarely come out).  Yes it would be very easy to make these out of a hanger or similar, however that could be dangerous to the shirt(s), as I am assuming that these are either stainless steel or something at least corrosion resistant, most hangers aren't - the last thing you want are rust stains on your shirt or insignia.  Also, I generally stretch them wider as I put them on to insure full "spring".

The below shows how you're supposed to thread them on the epaulet, then the how the sleeve goes over, and how it looks properly placed.  As shown, if any metal is showing, its because the epaulet sleeve is not positioned correctly.  Yes, I have seen members not wearing them correctly (i.e. inside the sleeve but over the epaulet), and the metal shows - you correct the member quickly and privately and the problem never appears again.

Note that when used properly, the shaper not only keeps the epaulet sleeve stretched open, but also works to hold the epaulet sleeve in place at the end of the epaulet.  You will rarely see anyone with an epaulet sleeve creeping up the epaulet towards the neck if they are wearing shapers.



Here is an example of shaper vs. no shaper, with the shaper on the left (nametag side).  The difference is subtle but obvious, especially for members who also wear shirt garters, (so that the front of the shirt is being pulled down at the same time your shoulder may be raised).  I see a very pronounced curve most often on heavier members wearing short-sleeved shirts while seated.


BTW - another pet peeve of mine is people who wear a notebook bag, backpack, purse, or anything else that hangs on the epaulet sleeve.  Looks terrible and ruins the insignia.

There we go...

[OldSalt]

Great post, thanks! Now I can see how the shapers would help keep the epaulettes laying flatter. Initially I thought the shapers were just to keep the sleeves from bunching up. I'll try it tonight.

By the way, this info is something that should be included within the next edition of 39-1 IMHO.

[peter rabbit]

Did anyone determine for sure whether the large or small shapers work best with this shirt? There was a discussion in another thread about the location of the buttons and that the small shapers might work better than the large ones.