Cadets viewing files

[CAPC/officer125]

What is the reg on if a cadet can view their file? Can a cadet, with senior member approval and supervision, take a look at their file, say to see what test they need to take or to make sure things are up to date? If there is not a reg, is there a standard procedure? This would not mean that they have editing power over their file, just that they can see everything is in order.

[Eclipse]

Members may request access to their files at any time - there is no delineation between senior or cadet.

The records must remain in the possession of the unit, they cannot be removed.

This is spelled out specifically by reg, which I can't find at the momenet - someone else will post the verbiage.

[Spike]

CAPC/officer125   I suggest you also keep a copy of your file for yourself.  Ask if you can make a copy if what is in the file now, and make it known that you want a second copy of all future material placed in your file. 

[lordmonar]

Members may request access to their files at any time - there is no delineation between senior or cadet.

The records must remain in the possession of the unit, they cannot be removed.

This is spelled out specifically by reg, which I can't find at the momenet - someone else will post the verbiage.

Unless you are transfering or quiting....in which case you take your records and the unit keeps a copy.

[Eclipse]

If you're leaving the unit (for whatever reason), there's no reason for the unit to retain the records and having them would probably violate retention regs.

[FlyTiger77]

I am not aware of any regulation precluding a member, either cadet or senior, from viewing his/her own record.

If you're leaving the unit (for whatever reason), there's no reason for the unit to retain the records and having them would probably violate retention regs.

Eclipse, that is not quite right. A unit MUST , at a minimum , SHOULD retain for 5 years either the record or a copy of the record of members who leave the unit through transfer or termination, whether voluntarily or involuntarily. See below for specific guidance.

CAPR 39-2, para 1-8 states: "Members who transfer, resign, retire, or fail to renew may request their membership records from the unit. The unit should keep a copy of the former member's personnel record in the inactive file. Members whose membership is not renewed or terminated may request a copy of their membership records from the unit; however, the unit will retain the official records. Records not requested by former members will be removed from the unit's active file and arranged alphabetically in an inactive file. The unit is required to maintain records of former members for 5 years unless otherwise directed by Membership Services (NHQ CAP/DP). If not requested after the 5th year, records will be destroyed. "

[FlyTiger77]

The edit function and I are not getting along.

The second-to-the-last sentence in the regulation I cite immediately above should read (NHQ CAP/LMM) vice (NHQ CAP/DP).

v/r

[Eclipse]

Non-concur, first as you say its says "should" which in CAP regulatory parlance means optional.

Retention requirements are only applicable for situations where the respective unit is the last unit of record for the respective member. 

Cadet Smith transfers from HI002 to HI003 - HI002 gives the records to the cadet, wishes him well, and never thinks about him again.
No copies are retained by HI002.

Cadet smith drops to patron - HI002 retains the records as his unit of record.

Cadet Smith quits CAP - HI002 retains his records for 5 years as per regulations.

Cadet Smith is pushed to 000 - HI002 sends his records to wing, never to think of them again.
(one of the points of 000 is to relieve the local unit(s) of the administrivia required for empty shirts.)

Otherwise, we'd have copies of unit records all over the place for no reason, and in violation of retention regulations, since they don't match any retention category.  Members who are upwardly mobile, or move around a lot for legitimate reasons would leave a trail of paper poop in their wake.  For example, my region has term limits on Commanders.  Its possible and even likely for a member to move Unit cc to a Group CC, and then to wing staff , within 5 years, which would leave 3 different copies of my jacket for no reason.

I can't think of any good reason that the ex-unit would need to retain a copy, and I would certainly tick it as an SUI finding if any of my units were keeping copies of personnel record "just because". 

[lordmonar]

Eclipse you are splitting hairs.

Bottom line.....units should and/or will keep a copy for 5 years in the inactive file.

If a member transferes....it may or may not be required...but it is a good idea.

It will not be a SUI finding because the reg says "should"....that means NHQ (who drives the SUI) wants you to retain the records.

Jeezze....it's not rocket science.

[Pingree1492]

Here's your reg cite (though as a C/Maj, hopefully you've combed through this regulation thoroughly before... if not, you'll need to for your Spaatz exam)

Inspecting & Transmitting Cadet Records. Cadets, and their parents, may inspect their files at any time. It will be freely given to the gaining unit commander if the cadet transfers units. During a transfer, the old and new commanders must ensure the cadet's records are complete and up-to-date. Commanders must ensure all records are treated in accordance with CAPR 10-2, Files Maintenance and Records Disposition, and CAPR 39-2, Civil Air Patrol Membership.

[lordmonar]

And to the point that we get an SUI hit for holding old records

31 Dec Note: cut off when membership expires or transfers and destroy after 5 years

So you are supposed to keep them until Dec 31 five years agter they transfer or expire.  (so if they transfer Jan 1 2010 you hold the record until Dec 31, 1015).

[Eclipse]

And to the point that we get an SUI hit for holding old records

31 Dec Note: cut off when membership expires or transfers and destroy after 5 years

So you are supposed to keep them until Dec 31 five years agter they transfer or expire.  (so if they transfer Jan 1 2010 you hold the record until Dec 31, 1015).

No, you may keep them. There is no requirement to do so.  "Should" vs. "will" is not splitting hairs, it makes the item optional.  If you've ever seen the nightmare of "history" that some units have in their file cabinets you'd know why keeping records of ex-members is a big deal and a bad idea, especially for an extended period of time (i.e. 5 years).

Also, there is a difference in the requirements between expirations and transfers.  Transfers is a option, expired members is a 5-year mandatory retention.

[FlyTiger77]

....first as you say its says "should" which in CAP regulatory parlance means optional.

Retention requirements are only applicable for situations where the respective unit is the last unit of record for the respective member....

Eclipse, just because you like to argue (and misquoted me--I said "...at a minimum should...") doesn't make me wrong. You can non-concur all you want, but your original comment is are still wrong.

If you reread carefully what I wrote, you will notice that we said the same thing, both of which contradicted your original comment that implied that units should NOT retain records. The only difference is that I said it much more concisely and then quoted verbatim the pertinent regulation. Units CAN maintain copies of records of transferees and MUST maintain the original records of those who terminate for 5 years.

v/r

[Eclipse]

OK - to be clear, in my opinion, units should not retain copies of records for members who transfer.  They serve no purpose but to clutter the file cabinets and cause more administrative work for the respective officer.

Since the retention regulation allows for the option, it is at the discretion of the local commander as to whether they are kept.

Further to my note on SUI's, since its an option, making it a finding would be inappropriate, however it could certainly be an observation.

[FlyTiger77]

And, in the opinion of the regulation writers and ratifiers at NHQ, units SHOULD (denoting the preferred, but by no means mandatory, course of action) maintain a copy of all departing member's records and MUST maintain a copy of all terminating member's records, which was the point of my original post.

v/r

[lordmonar]

CAPR 10-2 says you will retain the records for 5 years following a member's expiration or transfer.

I even provided the Table and Rule.

39-2 says

"The unit is required to maintain records of former members for 5 years unless otherwise directed by Membership Services (NHQ CAP/DP). If not requested after the 5th year, records will be destroyed"

The operative word in this sentence is REQUIRED!

If some SUI inspector gives you a hard time because you have 4 year old copies of transferred members.....send them to me and I'll school them on records management!

[lordmonar]

OK - to be clear, in my opinion, units should not retain copies of records for members who transfer.  They serve no purpose but to clutter the file cabinets and cause more administrative work for the respective officer.

Since the retention regulation allows for the option, it is at the discretion of the local commander as to whether they are kept.

Further to my note on SUI's, since its an option, making it a finding would be inappropriate, however it could certainly be an observation.

The regulations opinion is that you should keep them.  As for my opinion......some times people records get lost in transit.  By moving all ex member's records for 5 years you keep it easy to keep it straight between a transfered and an expired member.  The whole purpose of keeping the records it to be able recreate them after a break in service.

The SUI should not show it as a finding or an observation as both 10-2 and 39-2 says that you are required to retain the records.

[ßτε]

OK - to be clear, in my opinion, units should not retain copies of records for members who transfer.  They serve no purpose but to clutter the file cabinets and cause more administrative work for the respective officer.

Since the retention regulation allows for the option, it is at the discretion of the local commander as to whether they are kept.

Further to my note on SUI's, since its an option, making it a finding would be inappropriate, however it could certainly be an observation.

Really, an observation?

Observation--A minor deficiency documented to place emphasis on the need for resolution before it develops into a more serious problem, to provide crossfeed to other units or to act as an indicator of overall unit health.

How can you justify giving even an observation for doing something the regulations state the unit should do?

[Eclipse]

Observation--A minor deficiency documented to place emphasis on the need for resolution before it develops into a more serious problem, to provide crossfeed to other units or to act as an indicator of overall unit health.

How can you justify giving even an observation for doing something the regulations state the unit should do?

That's what observations are for -  to provide guidance or comment in area that are optional.  Observations do no require remediation
unless the commander deems them important (oh, forgot, that's me, too).

Another example would be that a Safety officer should not be the Commander.  Since its a should, not a will, it can be the CC, but its not a good idea.  Therefore, units with Commanders would get an observation that this is not a good idea, however making a change is also not required.

[Eclipse]

CAPR 10-2 says you will retain the records for 5 years following a member's expiration or transfer.

I even provided the Table and Rule.

39-2 says

"The unit is required to maintain records of former members for 5 years unless otherwise directed by Membership Services (NHQ CAP/DP). If not requested after the 5th year, records will be destroyed"

The operative word in this sentence is REQUIRED!

No, the operative phrase is "former members".  Transferees are not "former members".  The last unit of record is required to retain them when they quit, not every unit they touch.

The SUI should not show it as a finding or an observation as both 10-2 and 39-2 says that you are required to retain the records.

Neither 10-2, nor 39-1 requires retention of transferees.