What would you want to do with CAP uniforms?

[SarDragon]

Drop all corporate uniforms and have all members wear AF-style uniforms regardless of their weight.  The CG Aux only wears CG-style uniforms and has no specific weight requirements (a general requirement to present a military appearance is generally ignored).  So, an occassional Auxie is very obese and doesn't look good in the uniform -- the CG Aux has still ended up with a much closer relationship with the CG than CAP ever has had with the AF. 

Overall, I think CAP (and the AF's image) is hurt much worse by having 20 different uniforms on display at every CAP event than it would be by having everyone in the same uniform even if it included overweight people. 

That covers the heavy folks. What about those of us with facial hair?

I say we dye you orange.  Hey, it's just an idea.   

Well, it used to be red, so orange isn't that far away. Biggest problem is that they don't make beard dye in anything but shades of brown, and black.

But, changing the color doesn't change the basic issue - what uniform do I get to wear to make my contribution to CAP?

[shorning]

Drop all corporate uniforms and have all members wear AF-style uniforms regardless of their weight.  The CG Aux only wears CG-style uniforms and has no specific weight requirements (a general requirement to present a military appearance is generally ignored).  So, an occassional Auxie is very obese and doesn't look good in the uniform -- the CG Aux has still ended up with a much closer relationship with the CG than CAP ever has had with the AF. 

Overall, I think CAP (and the AF's image) is hurt much worse by having 20 different uniforms on display at every CAP event than it would be by having everyone in the same uniform even if it included overweight people. 

That covers the heavy folks. What about those of us with facial hair?

I say we dye you orange.  Hey, it's just an idea.   

Well, it used to be red, so orange isn't that far away. Biggest problem is that they don't make beard dye in anything but shades of brown, and black.

But, changing the color doesn't change the basic issue - what uniform do I get to wear to make my contribution to CAP?

Sorry, I meant you not your beard.  Sorry for the confusion.

[Major Carrales]

In a few years I may open the Major Joe Ely Carrales, CAP Gallery of Obsolete CAP uniforms.


Honestly, we make too much of all this.

[Hawk200]

In a few years I may open the Major Joe Ely Carrales, CAP Gallery of Obsolete CAP uniforms.


Honestly, we make too much of all this.

That'll cost a dollar or two.....

[SarDragon]

Sorry, I meant you not your beard.  Sorry for the confusion.

No dye necessary, I have more than enough orange clothing to cover myself from head to toe, with the exception of an orange ski mask. Never managed to find one of those.

Enough of the off-topic stuff.

I ask again - if we ditch the corporates and let the heavy guys wear AF-style uni's, what uniform do I get to wear to make my contribution to CAP?

[MIKE]

I ask again - if we ditch the corporates and let the heavy guys wear AF-style uni's, what uniform do I get to wear to make my contribution to CAP?

I assume RiverAux's plan would let you keep your wiskers... As long as they are well groomed.

[PhotogPilot]

Sorry, I meant you not your beard.  Sorry for the confusion.

No dye necessary, I have more than enough orange clothing to cover myself from head to toe, with the exception of an orange ski mask. Never managed to find one of those.

Enough of the off-topic stuff.

I ask again - if we ditch the corporates and let the heavy guys wear AF-style uni's, what uniform do I get to wear to make my contribution to CAP?

I don't know, but with all that orange, we can strap you to the roof of GT vehicles, just make a triangle with your arms!

[Pylon]

I don't know, but with all that orange, we can strap you to the roof of GT vehicles, just make a triangle with your arms!

:clap:

Hahaha!

[Hawk200]

The list is up: http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=1076.new#new

[DNall]

add embroidered version of ALL metal spec badges worn in the same places.

[LtCol White]

USAF will NEVER approve dropping the weight and grooming standards to allow all to wear the USAF uniform so you can completely forget about this idea. It will NEVER happen. NEVER I can assure you. Did i forget to mention NEVER?

[AlphaSigOU]

USAF will NEVER approve dropping the weight and grooming standards to allow all to wear the USAF uniform so you can completely forget about this idea. It will NEVER happen. NEVER I can assure you. Did i forget to mention NEVER?

In other words... it'll be a cold day with blizzard conditions in hell before Mother Blue ever relaxes the weight and grooming standards for CAP.

[lordmonar]

USAF will NEVER approve dropping the weight and grooming standards to allow all to wear the USAF uniform so you can completely forget about this idea. It will NEVER happen. NEVER I can assure you. Did i forget to mention NEVER?

In other words... it'll be a cold day with blizzard conditions in hell before Mother Blue ever relaxes the weight and grooming standards for CAP.

Ergo...we drop the USAF uniforms go straight corporates and finally be uniformed!

[DNall]

Except that takes us further from the life-blood of the AF. You take us out of AF-style uniforms & in 5-10 years the majority of members will not think of the AF as our parent org, and the members that join to assist the AF won't be here, just the flying club that doesn't mind doing good things while practicing their hobby, as if that's a professional resuce expert staandard that people should stake the lives of their family on. It goes both ways too, don't underestimate the symboligy exploited to reinforce the traditional culture of us being part of the AF family. You take those uniforms away & you'll get the AF looking at us like any ohter contractor. That means we're dead in the first short budget year, not to mention we might die before that when they see us unable to deliver quality or return on the investment.

The degree to which CAP looks like the AF IS a measure of OUR desire to be on their team & THEIR willingness to admit they know us. The gravity of that relationship, moreso than mission performance, determines funding. If that relationship fails, CAP will be dissolved & our assets liquidated one way or another. IF CAP plays too many games, that's the fate. If CAP doesn't get its act together & evolve for the future, lead the way, demand accountability, etc that's the fate. At some point Congress needs to fix some things too, but in the meantime we need to be busting our butts to avoid that fate. Some folks want to argue uniform discussions are stupid & we should dedicate that energy to I guess running missions better or something. I'll argue that the form of the uniform in itself isn't such a big deal, but using the symbol to influence psychology both explicitly & implicitly is a very valid avenue to effect change. It's the reason AF uniforms look the way they do today, the reason for every uniform ever in time.

So NO, w're not dumping AF uniforms to get everyone in the same corporate style uniforms. Doing so means no more CAP & works counter to everything we need to be doing.

[LtCol White]

lordmonar why is it you are so opposed to the USAF uniform and want to dump it in favor of total corporates? All throughout the numerous threads here, you have seen us talk about how important it is to rebuild our relationship with USAF and move closer into the USAF family. Everything you propose does completely the opposite. Why exactly did you join CAP? If you have a problem with the USAF affiliation then I suggest you go join the boyscouts.

[DNall]

Actually, I understand where he's coming from. He thinks it'd be more militarily professional to have us all in the same uniforms at the same time regardless fo what those may be. I understand that logic, but I say at what cost then determine the loss of symbolic brotherhood that drives our relationship would be deadly, so no. I do think though that UOD rules should be tightened up so there will always be a designated uniform clearly stated for everything, and you must be in it or not participate. That in conjunction with a nice littel chart to show what corporate-STYLE uniform corresponds to what AF style, and keep that on a straight 1-to-1 basis, cut the rest. It's either that or cut all members that can't meet the ht/wt/grooming standards, and that isn't going to work out so well. I respect what he's saying, I just disagree with it & try to point out the potential consequences to be avoided.

[Hawk200]

Actually, I understand where he's coming from. He thinks it'd be more militarily professional to have us all in the same uniforms at the same time regardless fo what those may be. I understand that logic, but I say at what cost then determine the loss of symbolic brotherhood that drives our relationship would be deadly, so no. I do think though that UOD rules should be tightened up so there will always be a designated uniform clearly stated for everything, and you must be in it or not participate. That in conjunction with a nice littel chart to show what corporate-STYLE uniform corresponds to what AF style, and keep that on a straight 1-to-1 basis, cut the rest. It's either that or cut all members that can't meet the ht/wt/grooming standards, and that isn't going to work out so well. I respect what he's saying, I just disagree with it & try to point out the potential consequences to be avoided.

To be straightforward, I really don't think that this only blues, or only corporates is the end all answer to "uniformity". Non CAP members could say that if one person is wearing blues, another wearing a flightsuit, with a third in BDU's, that would be an example of "non uniform". You can try to argue that, but to outsiders, anything other than the exact same thing is not "uniform."

Considering how many people out there in public don't know the difference between a deputy sherrif and a highway patrolman, I don't think consolidating to one uniform is really going to help at all.

And as far as a little chart showing which corporates correspond to the AF combinations, there already is one.

[BillB]

It would seem to me that most members wear the same UOD as far as the Air Force uniform side is considered. The problem comes with the multitude of corporate uniforms. A members shouldn't wear the flight suit to a regular meeting since no flying is involved, therefore he would be in blues or BDUs which ever the uniform of the day. But when you add the golf shirt, blazer, or any of the other authorized corporate uniforms worn on a members whim, you have the core of the problem of uniformity. Another of the problems is a Commander that doesn't enforce the unifom of the day and just lets members wear what style unifom they want from the flight suit, even if not authorized by regulation,  to service coat. (class A to you old fogies)

[Major Carrales]

If it were up to me, the standard non-airport or Mil Base meeting should be attended in short sleeve blues or the corporate equivalent with flight cap.  Maybe, if the weather was a bit nippy, the long sleeve version.  With or without ribbons (suit yourself).

This combination is not "too much to ask for."  It is also based on the minimum standard dress for CAP.

Many people wear BDUs Woodland Camo to meetings...logically, that could be considered crazy unless your unit meets in a wooded area.  Still, I have no peoblem with BDUs for regular meetings.

Many of my units aviators wear their flight suits to meetings...being that they have aircrew ratings, I too have no problem with that.

Truth is...I am just happy they are there.  That they took some time from their busy lives to give to their CAP unit.  UOD is precarious considering there are so many combos out there (and not everyone owns them all) that it might exclude them.

Now...which of you has a solution to these problems?

[DNall]

Yes there is a chart, but that's not my point. The AF-style uniforms are set with only one valid possibility being appropriate for given situations. Say that's short sleeve blues & that's what the opplan says. Say you got a handgul of members over here who don't meet the ht/wt/grooming requirements, do they wear white aviator w/gray slides & gray pants no hat, OR white shirt w/ blue slides & blue pants (whatever the hat rule is this week), OR do they wear a golf shirt w/ gray pants?

EVERYTHING that happens in CAP should require a UOD & you should not be allowed in the door unless you meet that requirement, & that means wearing the items correctly as well. There should NEVER be a choice of what to wear. The UOD should be stated & you should wear EXCATLY what you are required to wear w/ no thought involved at all. I lean a little bit toward requiring those that can wear the AF-style to do so, because corporate-style is NOT allowed to be worn in any less degree of perfection than the AF version (the 300lbs guy in a white aviator should be wearing garters). I favor programs that encourage people to meet the AF standards & promote health, fitness, & safety at least to the degree necessary to do our job in the field - that's a side issue though.

UOD is just mess dress (formal events), service dress (business events), SS/LS (depending on month/weather), or Utility. You don't get a choice. You don't get a choice. If UOD is utilities for your regular meeting, then you wear BDU/BBDU unless you are active flight crew (on your 101) and will be flying to/from/at that event in which case you should wear green/blue flt suit. It is true that you can buy both the AF-style & the corporate-style version of one UOD & then confuse yourself with an extra choice, but that is HIGHLY discouraged.

Maj, the standard UOD is SS (LS w/ tie if conditions warrant). Officers are discouraged from wearing ribbons except for formal occasions - you're not supposed to show subordinates how little experience you have as a junior officer or show them up when you have more of a stack. It's optional, but it's considered rude. If the working or environmental conditions warrant utilities then that is standard. Otherwise, most offices have a casual friday when they wear utilities (active flight crew wear flight suits unless conditions warrant BDUs). None of this should be problematic. The conditions should automatically determine the appropriate UOD in planning, and the member should have no choice to make in selecting what uiform to wear. Is it expensive to have a set of blues (LS/tie & SS) and a set of BDUs, sure but every CAP member will have that or the aviator & BBDU alternative within the first year. It costs a lot to be in CAP, I can't do anything abou thtat.