What would you want to do with CAP uniforms?

[Hawk200]

I've seen loads of threads on the complaints from the various forums for CAP, and I'm a bit curious as to what most people might actually want to do with the CAP uniforms.

So, what would you do? For this thread, I would only have one suggestion: The Air Force blues and  BDU's must remain. Those do belong to our mother service, and they would probably be offended (to put it mildly) if we wished to do away with the uniforms they allow us to wear.

Every thing else is fair game: suggest a badge or a patch, or do away with certain ones. Eliminate uniforms; propose one; or suggest one to replace another. What ideas would make things look better, or make them more practical for missions? What insignia could we wear to make our uniforms more appealing? The idea is to look at ideas in a similar manner as the Air Force uniform board would.

I'm doing this out of curiousity, pretty much seeing what people might want. I'll compile it into a numbered list (which won't necessarily be prioritized), and put it back up for all to see.

[Psicorp]

Hmm...some changes that come to mind are:

1)  Create distinctive CAP SM Enlisted grade insignia and a progression chart comperable to the existing CAP SM Officer chart, with the same provisions for initial "appointments" based on the Active Duty pay grade for current or prior service.  Allow for those who wish to be Enlisted rather than Officers to do so, regardless of whether they have prior service or not.

2) Choose one of the white aviator shirt combos and ditch the other. My personal preference is for the blue pants/white shirt combo to be "the" Blues aternate uniform.

3) Allow SM Officers to wear the ultramarine cloth grade insignia on BDU caps.

[CAP428]

NOTHING!  except place a moratorium on all further changes. Yes, you may clap now. :clap:

No, I'm kidding...kind of.  I'm a cadet so I don't have to deal with as many changes as Seniors [sorry, Officers] do but just hearing that there is a new policy change to a uniform makes my head hurt!

[lordmonar]

If we stay with just the USAF uniforms...then why change anything.

I would support a move to corporate uniforms only.

It gets us "uniformed" and we will not have to deal with any changes the USAF makes later on (BDUs to ABU).

As far as the USAF being offended?  I don't think that would really happen.  90% of the rank of file of the USAF barely know we exist.

We really need to ask what CAP needs to get CAP's mission done in the best and most efficient manner.

I see all the different uniforms at a mission base as a problem for our organization.  By going to one uniform for all members....we make ourselves into a more professional unit.

[sjtrupp]

I would just want to simply things. 

Why do Cadet Airman have rank on both sides of the their collars for the BDUs, but continue to wear rank on side and CAP cutouts on the other for the Blues?

Why are Officers limited to 2 badges on the Aviator shirt with Gray pants, but can have 4 with Blue pants or the Blues uniform.

Why do we have two different Recruiter's ribbons?

Why can't we have a simple standardized PT uniform?

Lots of questions and I know the answers to most of them, but that doesn't make it right.  The rules should be simple and easy to implement.  Currently, there are just too many "buts" and "ors" to allow everyone to know exactly what needs to be done.  Changes to previous changes that still haven't been added to the manual.

On things that don't have to deal with simplifying things; I would like to see a standardized color for Scholastic Honor Cadets.  Then each Wing could decide whether they wanted to implement the cord.

[Pylon]

What would I want to do with CAP uniforms?

Not change them for a couple of years.



Despite all of the random issues there are with the way things are now, and things that may need correcting, I really think it would force National to think things all the way through if uniforms could only be changed once every few years - policy letters included.

[DNall]

Holy crap, who opened the can-o-worms? There's some good suggestions there. I have some views, & I'll try to be short & sweet about them, though there's several, give it a quick read though. I'll try to put up some pix.

1) SM w/o Grade - It's unacceptable that this grade should look EXACTLY the same as C/AB. I have a 17yo C/AB & an 18yo SM, how does someone else tell who the adult is in that picture for legal purposes? I'd like to chang SMWOG to Officer Candidate, and have a blank CAP slide (avail now from Vanguard) to mark it. Plus, poking holes in blues/aviator ruins the collar. We don't care about that when people transition to C/officer cause it's a couple years down the road & they'll grow out of the shirt in that time. Back to the sewn on CAP cutouts on both collars of BDU/BBDU - they'll be there for 6 months, that's adequate to do the sewing & longer than some of the FO grades that must be sewn now.

2) Badges. We had a proposal on the portal that was all done but the write up. I still need to get that taken care of & may have time now. The basis was professional appearance & wear standards following the AF, and recognition of key skills for retention & motivation purposes. It's a pretty good piece of work that just needs to be slammed together for formal presentation. It added a couple badges for unrecognized areas (IC, GBD/OSC/PSC); it changed the definitions of scanner & observer to account for the new tech systems & approach, creating aircrew/scanner & navigator/observer ratings; The senior rate for all wings stayed hour related, but the master rating became the badge for AOBD; all the wings were given a slick new look (aircrew/scanner added), and astronaut wings were added for NASA rated civilians in a specific AE plan that actually made lots of sense & was well received. Anyway, tweak badges according to that combined effort we put in over there.

3) Grade slides. Gray isn't so terrible, but black like that used by AFROTC would look a lot better - still w/ the CAP embroidered on it, and go to a blue nametag w/ that, either standardized w/ cadets or the standard one line AF version. That saves bucks. Obviously metal grade w/ CAP cutout on outterwear (service coat) would be most desirable along w/ this, but get the black slides first & go from there. I've also seen talk of an AFROTC-style shoulderboard for use w/ this, and I'm okay with that also.
NOTE: I do think the closeness of CAP uniforms to AF uniforms is one meassuring stick against which the quality of CAP personnel is in the AF view is indicated. According to that scale, I think we deserve gray right now, and I'd like to get on a professionalization track that deserves slightly harder to distinguish black slides in the future.

4) dump ultramarine blue on everything in favor of dark blue to match the shade of BBDUs. That'd look MUCH sharper. I'd recommend this transition occur w/ the move to ABUs out in the future.

5) Agree on a temp moratorium right now. Then add a reg for proposals direct from the field to a Wg uniform board, and from there OR the NEC to a BoG uniform board that will be equally staffed by AF officers – approval there will equal AF approval (AU/AETC/CSAF each appoint an officer to review & vote on their behalf [why are major AF general officers spending time on CAP uniform items anyway], NB, NEC, & NatCC each appoint an officer, CAP-USAF JA also a member, board elects their own internal officers to run mtgs). BoG uniform board can approve a change first for wear testing like the AF does, including a comment period, and THEN on the second time around can approve the change. Changes then are locked in for 5 years unless extenuating (legal) circumstances require a change sooner. Every effort will be made to keep CAP uniforms updated to the example provided by the AF.

6) Agree on ditch the two white aviator versions. Transition out the grays or get rid of the new style all together. I don't like the AF uniform w/ white shirt at all though, so maybe keep the gray slides/name w/ blue pants & corporate service coat as is.

7) Agree on 2 recruiter ribbons being stupid. You can have one ribbon w/ a standard for award to seniors & a standard for award to cadets. That would also allow you to carry over the ribbon from cadet to senior & earn new clasps by the adult standard. I'd like to take the other one & make it an recruiting assistance ribbon. When you join the military, you can get an extra stripe by referring a couple friends that go ahead & sign up. We could get a system where military recruiters could credit a CAP member by the same standards used there for referrals that ship, and a couple of those could equal a ribbon. It sets the foundation for a nice relationship.

Agree on full color grade on hat. May require "CAP" under/over it like you see w/ ranger tabs. This is a serious issue, cause when you de-blouse they can't have real mil enlisted troops thinking you can give them legal orders. Worth a look consideration in color.

9) Proceed w/ sewn on color grade for green flight suit, and possibly embroidered flight name patches.

[ELTHunter]

OOK, I'm sure some of these suggestions will be controversial to the you purests, but you asked:

Approve a khaki or light gray BDU uniform for summer.

Approve light gray BDU or six pocket pants for wear with the blue golf shirt.  It makes for a much cooler flight uniform in the summer months.

I actually kinda like the ultra marine background on embroidered tapes and rank insignia, but it doesn't go with the BBDU, so I'd change to a dark blue background.

Cloth name/aviation badge patch on flight suit.

Here's one for ya - a dark blue/black gore tex parka with both the BBDU and camo BDU.  In violation of the regs, I wear my dark blue w/black Cabela's gore-tex parka with my camo BDU's in rainy weather.  I really don't see the need in spending money on a camo gore-tex parka that I'm only going to wear a few times a year any way.  And seeing how they aren't in regs any way, I may as well wear the blue.  It actually doesn't look bad at all.

Approve black fleece for wear over BDU's like the Army does.

Adopt the no shine brown boots that are now allowed with the ABU.

And lastly.....approve the brown leather A-2 with the blue AF uniform as long as it has a CAP distinctive name patch on it.  I mean, come on, what's so sacred about the brown A-2?

[Chris Jacobs]

OOK, I'm sure some of these suggestions will be controversial to the you purests, but you asked:

Approve a khaki or light gray BDU uniform for summer.

Approve light gray BDU or six pocket pants for wear with the blue golf shirt.  It makes for a much cooler flight uniform in the summer months.

I actually kinda like the ultra marine background on embroidered tapes and rank insignia, but it doesn't go with the BBDU, so I'd change to a dark blue background.

Cloth name/aviation badge patch on flight suit.

Here's one for ya - a dark blue/black gore tex parka with both the BBDU and camo BDU.  In violation of the regs, I wear my dark blue w/black Cabela's gore-tex parka with my camo BDU's in rainy weather.  I really don't see the need in spending money on a camo gore-tex parka that I'm only going to wear a few times a year any way.  And seeing how they aren't in regs any way, I may as well wear the blue.  It actually doesn't look bad at all.

Approve black fleece for wear over BDU's like the Army does.

Adopt the no shine brown boots that are now allowed with the ABU.

And lastly.....approve the brown leather A-2 with the blue AF uniform as long as it has a CAP distinctive name patch on it.  I mean, come on, what's so sacred about the brown A-2?

If we go to a dark blue back ground on the name tapes on the BBDU we would look like the coast guard.  They may not appreciate that.

I have a yellow Columbia jacket that looks very professional with the BDU's and it is much more visable than the camo or black options. 

I do like the idea of approving some gray BDU pants with the golf shirt.  It would be practical and good looking.

[ELTHunter]

I do like the idea of approving some gray BDU pants with the golf shirt.  It would be practical and good looking.

I see a lot of aircrew guys wearing them, but according to our Wing LG, she called NHQ and they said they were not considered slacks, so they were not approved CAP uniforms...so wear them at your own risk of no insurance coverage in the event of an accident.

[DNall]

a LOT of wings require nomex for flying & that could very well be standardized nationally soon. I think the gray combo w/ aviator should be cut now that the alternate blue version is here, and that means going to blue slacks w/ the golf shirt, which means BBDU pants could be worn in the scenerio you're proposing.

I guess I am a purest in the sense you're saying, and I certainly disapprove of kahki BDUs for summer. They have summer & winter weight BDU & BBDUs. Wear the right one. This isn't a SAR organizaiton. It is an AF assistance organization that happens for the time being to be assigned a SaR mission, among other things, in assistance to the AF. That by no means says we'll always do that or that it will remain our primary focus. We exist to serve the AF first & foremost. Our uniforms should indicate that. And, the AF should act in the uniforms they control & the influence they have over corporate-styles to reinforce that organic relationship lest CAP continue drifting off into space.

I think dark blue tapes on BDU & BBDU would be fine, screw what the CG thinks, I don't work for them & niether do the AF people doing the approving.

We did have a goretex thread over at the portal at one point. It did recommend the CG-style blue goretex setup as optional for use w/ BBDU & other corporate combinations. It does look slick, but I wouldn't use it w/ BDUs, that looks dumb.

[Major_Chuck]

Hmm...some changes that come to mind are:

1)  Create distinctive CAP SM Enlisted grade insignia and a progression chart comperable to the existing CAP SM Officer chart, with the same provisions for initial "appointments" based on the Active Duty pay grade for current or prior service.  Allow for those who wish to be Enlisted rather than Officers to do so, regardless of whether they have prior service or not.

2) Choose one of the white aviator shirt combos and ditch the other. My personal preference is for the blue pants/white shirt combo to be "the" Blues aternate uniform.

3) Allow SM Officers to wear the ultramarine cloth grade insignia on BDU caps.

I second this.

[Major_Chuck]

Shakos.  I suggested these over on the Portal a while back.  Blaze orange shako for the field uniform.

Definitely shakos.

[ELTHunter]

a LOT of wings require nomex for flying & that could very well be standardized nationally soon.

If they're going to make that a requirement, they should re-think the restriction on green flight suits for out-of-reg members, and go back to letting them (I say them, because I am in reg's, so it doesn't apply to me) wear them without rank, and possibly a different patch combo or some other feature that would help set them apart, and cut some loose from DRMO for us.  I can't remember the last time I saw our Wing get flight suits from Dr. Moe.  I wouldn't be in favor of making any member pay the prices that they charge for nomex flight suits.

I certainly disapprove of khaki BDUs for summer. They have summer & winter weight BDU & BBDUs. Wear the right one.

Most hot weather precautions include wearing light colors, as I'm sure you're aware.  Woodland camo and dark blue are, well, dark colors.  If we're going to approve Corporate uniforms, then I don't see the problem.

This isn't a SAR organization. It is an AF assistance organization that happens for the time being to be assigned a SaR mission, among other things, in assistance to the AF. That by no means says we'll always do that or that it will remain our primary focus. We exist to serve the AF first & foremost. Our uniforms should indicate that. And, the AF should act in the uniforms they control & the influence they have over corporate-styles to reinforce that organic relationship lest CAP continue drifting off into space.

I think dark blue tapes on BDU & BBDU would be fine, screw what the CG thinks, I don't work for them & neither do the AF people doing the approving.

The BBDU isn't an AF style uniform, so if you don't have a problem with it, why the problem with the khaki?  At least there is a basis (safety and comfort in hot weather) for it?  I don't see any basis for the BBDU other than it can't be mistaken for the AF.

[Major_Chuck]

We've got way too many uniform combinations.  This is a problem but one we brought on ourselves by having a duel identity crisis and the need to have a complete set of uniforms for those who meet height/weight standards for "AF Style" and those who choose not to wear the AF Style Uniforms or choose not to meet those height weight standards.

I would stream line the uniform mix down to something reasonable.   Flight suits would be an example.  Everyone would wear sage green.  If you did not meet the height/weight grooming standards then you would wear the uniform with only the CAP Majcom patch.  Same thing with BDU's. 

There was nothing wrong with the Aviator Uniform.  The TPU wasn't necessary.   If the sole reason for the TPU was to wear pin on rank you could have achieved that with the  Aviator uniform and still had a distinct uniform.

Wear tests.  There should be a wear test of any new uniform item and it should not be limited to those who work out of NHQ.

Berets.  A heather grey beret should be an optional uniform item with the blue BDU and Aviator Uniform when worn in Garrison.

Blue Patrol Cap.  Worn with Blue BDU's when in the field.

[ZigZag911]

Shakos.  I suggested these over on the Portal a while back.  Blaze orange shako for the field uniform.

Definitely shakos.

With or without plume?

[DNall]

I'm quite aware of hot weather conditions, we mow the lawn here on Christmas & it's 500% humidity all the time. Kahki wouldn't help me at all. I don't really like the BBDU personally. The AF has big problem w/ putting anyone out of ht/wt/grooming in anything that looks like a military uniform, and they've voived that concern within the limits they're allowed.

Gray berets? What's the weather like over there?

[MIKE]

1) SM w/o Grade - It's unacceptable that this grade should look EXACTLY the same as C/AB. I have a 17yo C/AB & an 18yo SM, how does someone else tell who the adult is in that picture for legal purposes? I'd like to chang SMWOG to Officer Candidate, and have a blank CAP slide (avail now from Vanguard) to mark it. Plus, poking holes in blues/aviator ruins the collar. We don't care about that when people transition to C/officer cause it's a couple years down the road & they'll grow out of the shirt in that time. Back to the sewn on CAP cutouts on both collars of BDU/BBDU - they'll be there for 6 months, that's adequate to do the sewing & longer than some of the FO grades that must be sewn now.

I had an idea a while back I posted on CS that takes the other side of this issue... Grade insignia for C/AB.... Basically the shield that is on the existing chevrons. 

My thinking now is we shouldn't be screwing with the current uniform... We should wait for something new, or at least change the way we change things and the phase in process.

[Hawk200]

I'm seeing what I was looking for, the basic ideas.

Overall, I see some ideas I like, and some I might not be so hot about, but whether I like it or not, I'm still gonna compile it all. I won't be censoring anything based on personal opinion (unless someone suggests pink tutu's, ideas like that will NOT be compiled for obvious reasons  )

Keep 'em coming.

[Hawk200]

I would just want to simply things. 

Why do Cadet Airman have rank on both sides of the their collars for the BDUs, but continue to wear rank on side and CAP cutouts on the other for the Blues?

Why are Officers limited to 2 badges on the Aviator shirt with Gray pants, but can have 4 with Blue pants or the Blues uniform.

Why do we have two different Recruiter's ribbons?

Why can't we have a simple standardized PT uniform?

Lots of questions and I know the answers to most of them, but that doesn't make it right.  The rules should be simple and easy to implement.  Currently, there are just too many "buts" and "ors" to allow everyone to know exactly what needs to be done.  Changes to previous changes that still haven't been added to the manual.

On things that don't have to deal with simplifying things; I would like to see a standardized color for Scholastic Honor Cadets.  Then each Wing could decide whether they wanted to implement the cord.

I pretty much was asking what people would want to see, so I'm addressing your questions for my personal clarification:

1.Why do Cadet Airman have rank on both sides of the their collars for the BDUs, but continue to wear rank on side and CAP cutouts on the other for the Blues?

What would you like to see? I might guess that you would like to see rank on both sides for all uniform variations. Am I right?

2. Why are Officers limited to 2 badges on the Aviator shirt with Gray pants, but can have 4 with Blue pants or the Blues uniform.

From what I found on page 76 of 39-1, the same badges are authorized on the white/grays as on the blues. The last line is the one that says only 2 badges may be worn (and seems to contradict the previous portions of the page). I'm assuming that you would like to see the same badges authorized on the aviator combo as on blues.

3. Why do we have two different Recruiter's ribbons?

Good question. Once again I'm assuming, but I imagine that you would like to see only one.

4. Why can't we have a simple standardized PT uniform?

Standardize the PT uniform. Check

5. On things that don't have to deal with simplifying things; I would like to see a standardized color for Scholastic Honor Cadets.  Then each Wing could decide whether they wanted to implement the cord.

That is simplifying things, and that's the kind of idea I'm looking for. I imagine in 'officialese' we would say something like this: "Scholastic Honor Cadets will wear a cord of {insert color here}. Wing commanders will be the final authority for permission to wear."