Is there _any_ reason for us to be under UCMJ?

NO.

I have never heard of a case of wrongdoing that couldn't be handled by either CAP administrative procedures or Federal/State/Local law.

Barring that, this just becomes a late night dorm room discussion:

"Dude, what if we were under UCMJ?  They'd have to take us seriously then!"

"Whoa, maybe we'd get metal insignia and they's salute us!"

"(she-dog)'n Camaro, baby!"

Give it a rest...

Agreed with most everything said here. CAP is not military, therefore has no reason to be held under the UCMJ. 
In regards to bringing up SDFs, you are correct we are held under state UCMJ at all times because we are State Soldiers. 
I may do a lot of the same things as a CAP member that I do a State Guardsman, but at the end of the day on paper it says one is military and one is not, clear and simple.
Now CAP getting reemployment protection, thats a whole different conversation...

Quote from: lordmonar on March 20, 2007, 09:57:57 PM
The limited circumstances where civilians come under the UCMJ is where they are in the field with a combatant unit.

Acting as part of a paramilitary/irregular force on orders from competent military authority is the same as if they were there with you directing your activity. It doesn't matter if you are in a combat environment or in your underwear telecommuting from your home computer. Basically, it's the same legal status as an SDF would be afforded, but their officers would be treated as officers & ours would not. It is dicey to be sure, but that's the technical interpretation.

Again though, I'm not arguing to have CAP covered by UCMJ. As I said, I would have no interest in having our cases wasting the time of the military justice system. Not to mention nothing from that process could turn out especially good for CAP.

What I would argue for is a CAP code of justice (or whatever you want to call it) which mimics UCMJ & other ethics laws/regs within a fair & impartial CAP disciplinary system. CAP members do need to be held acountable 24/7 & to very similiar standards to the military, and we should take full advantage of criminal/civil law to follow up disciplinary actions, that shouldn't even be optional. The rest of my view has to do with governance.

Quote from: DNall on March 21, 2007, 04:17:27 AMAgain though, I'm not arguing to have CAP covered by UCMJ. As I said, I would have no interest in having our cases wasting the time of the military justice system. Not to mention nothing from that process could turn out especially good for CAP.

What I would argue for is a CAP code of justice (or whatever you want to call it) which mimics UCMJ & other ethics laws/regs within a fair & impartial CAP disciplinary system. CAP members do need to be held acountable 24/7 & to very similiar standards to the military, and we should take full advantage of criminal/civil law to follow up disciplinary actions, that shouldn't even be optional. The rest of my view has to do with governance.

Okay....how much is going to cost?

How many FLIRS can we buy instead?

Just 2b them instead!

Sure, but 2b gets abused, and can you 2b someone for a DUID outisde of CAP? It wouldn't come up to prevent them from joining. You don't think we need some ethics rules, a 24/7 standard, and no one above the rules from top to bottom? I think that'd change a lot of things about CAP, that would in turn result in the kind of people retaining in the org & rising to command that would go out & get everything else we need. Core values have to be number one. No amount of gear, missions, or anything else can come in front of that.

Quote from: DNall on March 21, 2007, 04:30:44 AM
Sure, but 2b gets abused, and can you 2b someone for a DUID outside of CAP? It wouldn't come up to prevent them from joining. You don't think we need some ethics rules, a 24/7 standard, and no one above the rules from top to bottom? I think that'd change a lot of things about CAP, that would in turn result in the kind of people retaining in the org & rising to command that would go out & get everything else we need. Core values have to be number one. No amount of gear, missions, or anything else can come in front of that.

It is a lot easier and cheaper to change the CAPR to allow you to 2b someone for Non-CAP activities then it is to create a CAPCMJ and run a pseudo Court System.

As far as a 24/7 ethics code...not I don't think we need one of those because I am not CAP 24/7 and I certainly don't want to be the public morality Nazi for my squadron.

We have core values and they are number one....if you have looked over the CAP Foundations Training you would see that they are covered extensively.

And believe me....if I were a squadron commander again and I had someone who I thought was a liability to the program he would not last long.

I can alway demote him, 2b him, pull his certifications, reassign him to head floor sweeper.  There are lots of way that already exist to discipline a bad member.

I didn't say court system with trials & crap. I do however mean a disciplinary system independent of the chain of command (again with the ethics & abuse of power isssues). Too often our current lack of a system is abused, and clearly it doesn't apply universally. That's what needs to be changed. Liberty & justice for all or something along those lines... no one above the rules & everyone trusts they'll get a fair shake.

Just say NO!

I left the UCMJ completely behind in 1999. I don't want or need it any more.

Quote from: DNall on March 21, 2007, 07:43:29 AM
I didn't say court system with trials & crap. I do however mean a disciplinary system independent of the chain of command (again with the ethics & abuse of power isssues). Too often our current lack of a system is abused, and clearly it doesn't apply universally. That's what needs to be changed. Liberty & justice for all or something along those lines... no one above the rules & everyone trusts they'll get a fair shake.

Sounds like a court system to me.

As a Police Officer, I'm held to a very high moral standard, Both on duty and off duty. I can't just decide to go cheat on my wife or drive drunk or go act a fool at a bar with my friends and get drunk and stupid. Those are all activities that any civilian job you work at probably would say "Well, as long as it's on your time" Me and every other Police Officer can not go do those things without facing possible disciplinary actions. That holds true both for us full time officers and the non paid volunteer reserve officers in the department. there is one standard and we all live with it.

  Cap needs to be much the same way, As Officers we should be held to the same standards. As members and Officers of the Civil Air patrol we represent the United States Air Force and the Federal Govt. We need to let our personal lives reflect that. I personally don't think there's a place in our organization for someone with questionable morals. Cheating on your spouse, doing drugs, financial irresponsibility and drinking to excess in a public place are all examples of poor moral and character values. As Officers we should reflect the highest character values, both in and out of uniform. You never know who sees you and recognises you.

   How you live your personal life, reflects more on your character and values then how you act when you attend CAP meetings and activities. We need to be held accountable for such actions.

Quote from: DrJbdm on March 21, 2007, 05:39:39 PM
As a Police Officer, I'm held to a very high moral standard, Both on duty and off duty. I can't just decide to go cheat on my wife or drive drunk or go act a fool at a bar with my friends and get drunk and stupid. Those are all activities that any civilian job you work at probably would say "Well, as long as it's on your time" Me and every other Police Officer can not go do those things without facing possible disciplinary actions. That holds true both for us full time officers and the non paid volunteer reserve officers in the department. there is one standard and we all live with it.

  Cap needs to be much the same way, As Officers we should be held to the same standards. As members and Officers of the Civil Air patrol we represent the United States Air Force and the Federal Govt. We need to let our personal lives reflect that. I personally don't think there's a place in our organization for someone with questionable morals. Cheating on your spouse, doing drugs, financial irresponsibility and drinking to excess in a public place are all examples of poor moral and character values. As Officers we should reflect the highest character values, both in and out of uniform. You never know who sees you and recognises you.

   How you live your personal life, reflects more on your character and values then how you act when you attend CAP meetings and activities. We need to be held accountable for such actions.

And I agree with this....and we can acheive that with a minor rewrite of the existing CAP regulations.  We don't need to reinvent a UCMJ like system.

Quote from: DrJbdm on March 21, 2007, 05:39:39 PM
As a Police Officer, I'm held to a very high moral standard, Both on duty and off duty. I can't just decide to go cheat on my wife or drive drunk or go act a fool at a bar with my friends and get drunk and stupid. Those are all activities that any civilian job you work at probably would say "Well, as long as it's on your time" Me and every other Police Officer can not go do those things without facing possible disciplinary actions. That holds true both for us full time officers and the non paid volunteer reserve officers in the department. there is one standard and we all live with it.

  Cap needs to be much the same way, As Officers we should be held to the same standards. As members and Officers of the Civil Air patrol we represent the United States Air Force and the Federal Govt. We need to let our personal lives reflect that. I personally don't think there's a place in our organization for someone with questionable morals. Cheating on your spouse, doing drugs, financial irresponsibility and drinking to excess in a public place are all examples of poor moral and character values. As Officers we should reflect the highest character values, both in and out of uniform. You never know who sees you and recognises you.
   How you live your personal life, reflects more on your character and values then how you act when you attend CAP meetings and activities. We need to be held accountable for such actions.

Actually, sir, if I get a DUI outside of work I can actually be fired since driving a company vehicle in the course of my duties is required.   

As far as CAP, if a member gets a DUI at the very least (perhaps at most) the member's CAP driver's license and flying privileges should be suspended.   This can be a National, Wing, Group, or Unit policy. The same goes for any other violation of what is considered to be the proper conduct of an Officer.   Being in a volunteer organization and participating in activities is a carrot.   Sometimes a stick is needed; but for the vast majority of the time, the carrot is sufficient to keep people on the straight and narrow.

Applying UCMJ to a civilian volunteer seems a bit too much of a stretch.  As  Lordmonar said, our regulations/policies should be enough.   As long as we maintain integrity and apply our own stick when needed, there is no reason we should subject our members to the bigger, more complicated, and often quite harsh stick of the UCMJ.

HECK NO! 

Im sorry...if youve served a day in the military it would be very clear that this would not work. CAP has plenty of avenues to deal with discipline as well as applicable state laws for that wing.

Quote from: Flying Pig on March 21, 2007, 10:57:26 PM
HECK NO! 

Im sorry...if youve served a day in the military it would be very clear that this would not work. CAP has plenty of avenues to deal with discipline as well as applicable state laws for that wing.

Not really. There's a 2b or whatever you can creatively come up with, not much else. That needs to be better defined & laid out so the punishment meets the crime, not that it is abused to push people out of the way so others can take over units or move roadblocks to their advancement. Plus our leadership are not held to the same standards. They are literally above the law, and because of that a lot of things happen all out in the open that are clearly unethical, or at least appear that way. Equal justice, due process, etc. It's not that much to ask of a govt affiliated org.

I would agree with a system similiar to LE, and there is quite a lot of UCMJ that is similiar & could be looked to for guidance, that doesn't mean we're creating our own version of their jsutice system. There's no reason our IG system should not be independent of the chain of command & report up thru the BoG, and that AF should not have greater authority to investigate & pursue action when they see fit.

Quote from: DNall on March 21, 2007, 07:43:29 AM
I didn't say court system with trials & crap. I do however mean a disciplinary system independent of the chain of command (again with the ethics & abuse of power isssues). Too often our current lack of a system is abused, and clearly it doesn't apply universally. That's what needs to be changed. Liberty & justice for all or something along those lines... no one above the rules & everyone trusts they'll get a fair shake.

Equal justice under law??

Works for me!!

Dnall,

What sort of punishment are we talking about?  Fines, demotions, extra duty, jail time?  I mean what more do you want.  If a guy screws the pooch you can do all the counseling stuff.  You can demote him.  If that does not work you kick him out.  What more do you want to do? 

"Say you got a DUI last week....well CAP does not like that sort of thing...so we are going to take $200 from you or you can't come to meetings any more."

What part of volunteer organization don't you understand?  I, when I was a commander, did not need anything more than the power to demote and expel a member.  I did not want or need more.

Name one discipline problem in CAP that can't be solved with a good talking to, a demotion, a 2b or a call to the local cops?

Quote from: lordmonar on March 23, 2007, 05:14:48 AM
Name one discipline problem in CAP that can't be solved with a good talking to, a demotion, a 2b or a call to the local cops?

That'd be pretty numerous. Part of the problem is the informality of the system. One guy gets a DUI & CC's discression he gets a 2b, another guy gets one & his CC says don't do that again & it doesn't even effect his cAP driver's license. You'd get a big argument with a lot of people if you told them CAP has any say over theri behavior away from the organization, when that's a fundamental part of being in the military or any other trusted profession.

CAP is indeed a volunteer organization. You volunteer full on knowing the rules & obligations (or are quickly instructed), and after that you are obligated to duty & everything that comes with it, and if you don't liek that then you have every right to leave. The only dif in the military is you get paid for not having the choice to leave or refuse duty.

What I'm envisioning would:
1) state violations of criminal/civil law tied to penalties in CAP (ie certain things will get you kicked out, you should be suspended while awaiting trial, some lesser things may require counselling, repeated minor offenses [pattern of behavior] may get you kicked, etc).
2) state things you do wrong in CAP that may br grounds for civil/criminal charge & REQUIRE official referal for prosecution.
3) Lesser offenses in CAP tied to punishments, still with a margin of discression but with enough teeth that the punishment fits the crime.
4) an independent system for a certain level of disciplinary action that is beyond command influence (if that requires trials then so be it, if not then all the better).
5) everyone bound by the same rules all the time no matter what with no exceptions & & a dump truck to drop on your head if you try covering things up.
6) greater capability for AF to investigate & take action as they see fit to clean up the system & maintain their standards in their auxiliary - cause you're the same person on a mission as you are off it.

Quote from: DNall on March 23, 2007, 06:27:05 AM
Part of the problem is the informality of the system. One guy gets a DUI & CC's discression he gets a 2b, another guy gets one & his CC says don't do that again & it doesn't even effect his CAP driver's license.

If you actually go by the regulations, what you said was incorrect:

Quote from: CAPR 77-1, Paragraph 5
c. <snip>
1) DUI/DWI.
2) Three or more moving violations.
3) Six or more non-moving violations.
4) Reckless driving resulting in injury or property damage.
5) Vehicle felony (hit and run, negligent homicide, theft, assault with a motor vehicle)
<snip>
d. Commission of any of the driving offenses above will be reported to the wing commander immediately and will result in the revocation of the member's CAPF 75 and suspension of all CAP driving privileges. The wing commander will determine the length of suspension. Permanent revocation of CAP driving privileges will be considered.

CAP is a volunteer organization and with all volunteer organizations, they count on people doing the right thing.  If they screw up..you boot them.  If its illegal, call the cops.  If your in a rift with your Sq Com, change units.  If its civil, CAP can sue them on the Peoples Court.
Other than removing someone from the program, CAP has no enforcement arm to impose or carry out sentences.  Its a volunteer program, nobody can MAKE me do anything!   Thats why leadership is so important.  None of have to be here.  Talk about a leadership challenge. 

Why would CAP or its members even want this hassle?  You think dues are expensive now?! If CAP ever got to the point where we needed this, Id say we scrap CAP all together because it failed.  I say we create a CAP Secret Service Specialty Track.

Nall, what you "envision" would be a bureaucratic and paperwork nightmare! Trials?  You mean here I "volunteer" to show up?  Who's going to make me come to a trial?  Is there going to be a CAP warrant system?  The difference with the military isn't that you get paid for not having a choice, its that they have the authority to throw you in the slammer and take everything away from you.  Believe me, Ive seen guys refuse duty.  And they get shipped to brig.

That gets us back to the word volunteer.  Any punishment CAP imposes, other than whats already in place, I would have to volunteer for. 
As far as any actions requiring an official referral?  Referral to who?  The District Attorney?  Whos going to do the DA paperwork and write the warrant.  Thats what a referral is.  You write an arrest warrant for a judge to ultimately sign if He/She and the DA determine there is Probable Cause for an arrest.  At least thats how its done in Ca.  And last I checked, your unit admin officer can't swear to an arrrest warrant affidavit.  You need to be a sworn and employed law enforcement officer acting in the course and scope of your duty.  Not in the course and scope of Civil Air Patrol.  We already have a list of things that are grounds for civil and criminal charges.  They are called laws.  And we already have an enforcement arm.  The police.

As far as the military investigating further.  Ummmm...I'm a civilian, unless I commit some crime against the US or on a military base, they can't investigate me unless it was a violation of Federal Law.  Then it would fall to FBI.  And they sure aren't going to investigate me for a violation against CAP.  What if my Squadron isn't on a military base?  Then what?  One guy gets nailed federally because his unit is on a base, the other guy gets a citation for a misdemeanor from the local PD because he meets in High School classroom?

The CAP way isnt perfect.  But C'mon.  Your asking to give CAP members law enforcement authority? So now were going to need an independent Internal Affairs Division.  Do they answer to the National Commander?  The Secretary of the Air Force? The Attorney General maybe? 

So your problem with CAP disciplin is that it is not uniform across the squadrons...and you feel that if national spelled out exactly what THEY feel are 2bing offenses should be applied to every squadron....thereby taking any chance of mitigation or local conditions and tying the hands of the local commander.

Just to clue you in onto something.  Even with the UCMJ....we have the same exact problem on AD.  The Article 15 punishments are completely at the descretion of the squadron commander.  So we are always dealing with one DUI getting a suspended sentance and another DUI loosing 2 stripes and a butt load of money.  But....the point is....it is a tool to allow local commanders to maintain good order and disciplin.  If punishments were dictated by National (in the form of a regulation or policy letter) then you lose ability to control the situation at the local level.

Consistancy comes from oversight by higher levels of command.  We already know that this does not exist (I use uniform conformity as an example).

You may not like the idea that I keep a DUI guy in my squadron....but you have no idea how that may impact the squadron or the member.....you just feel they should be gone.  A guy screws up off CAP time you allow commanders to make the decision of what to do about it.  Group/wing commanders should be monitoring their squadron commanders and step in (as it allowed in the regs) when necessary.  If a squadron (or any level of commander) can't follow higher HQ's wishes...then you fire the commander.

As far as an independant disciplanry process....again....is that not some sort of court system?  And ultimately what can they do to a member?  Demote him, suspend him or kick him out.  Again....we have that power now why reinvent the wheel?

As far as USAF investigations.....well we are not in the military.  Unless that fundimental fact changes there is no use in doing anything along this lines.  What we really need is a BoG to stand up and take the powers that they already have.  The IG should be answering to them and they should be taking a more active role in developing policy and coordinating with the USAF.