CAP Talk

At the confence in D. C. this past week, a new corporate uniform was introduced.  The unfiform consists of the Air Force Pants, the Air Force Necktie, the Air Force Belt and Buckle and the Air Force Officer Epaulets (BLUE, exaclty like the AF).  The only difference is the shirt is not blue, it is white and the addition of a blue nameplate that says "Civil Air Patrol" and your last name.  This should make alot of people happy and alot of people mad at the same time.  No more candy-stripped ties!



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Quote from: mikeylikey on March 07, 2006, 09:22:30 PM
No more candy-stripped ties!

This newly introduced uniform is not replacing either the USAF-style Service Dress uniform nor the CAP Distinctive Aviator uniform... at least, not yet.  At this time, it is simply an additional uniform to the already swelling mix of CAP uniforms. 
You can still wear your aviator shirt and grey pants, with the striped regimental tie.

Of course, this whole situation in and of itself negates the basic concept of "uniform," but that's a whole different subject.   ;)

I'd be interested to see a photograph of this new CAP "distinctive" uniform at some point.

Quote from: mikeylikey on March 07, 2006, 09:22:30 PM
At the confence in D. C. this past week, a new corporate uniform was introduced.  The unfiform consists of the Air Force Pants, the Air Force Necktie, the Air Force Belt and Buckle and the Air Force Officer Epaulets (BLUE, exaclty like the AF).  The only difference is the shirt is not blue, it is white and the addition of a blue nameplate that says "Civil Air Patrol" and your last name.  This should make alot of people happy and alot of people mad at the same time.  No more candy-stripped ties!

Is it the white Aviator Shirt like what's currently worn?
(http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c116/JDRecco/aviator.jpg)

Or, is it a white version off the Air Force Blues shirt?:
(http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c116/JDRecco/pilot.jpg)

Unpleated pockets - same shirt as for the white and greys.

Quote from: ddelaney103 on March 08, 2006, 01:14:30 AM
Unpleated pockets - same shirt as for the white and greys.

In the near future, will they do away with the White and Greys?

Quote from: mikeylikey on March 07, 2006, 09:22:30 PM
No more candy-stripped ties!

Actually, you didn't even have to wear the candy-striped tie with the current Aviator Shirt Combo.

QuoteCAPM 39-1, Table 4-3
USAF blue tie or CAP blue floppy bow must be worn with long sleeved
version, optional with short-sleeved version. Any other style or color
tie/floppy bow (including Regimental and ties with CAP Crest) is not
authorized. CAP blue floppy bow is available only from CAPMart.

Mod Edit: Removed Bill's Kielochesque newbie identifier tag.  Welcome, Bill!  :)    --MK

I appologize for the improper formatting in the previous post, but for the life of me, I can't figure out why my entire post is coming up as a quote...

Must be some kind of Kielochesque newbie identifier tag.

Quote from: Viper on March 08, 2006, 02:05:06 AM

Quote from: ddelaney103 on March 08, 2006, 01:14:30 AM
Unpleated pockets - same shirt as for the white and greys.

In the near future, will they do away with the White and Greys?

Dunno... but I wouldn't be surprised if that happens.

From a confrence call I had with national this will replace the grey pants and aviator shirt as soon as a memo is drafted.  It also means the end for the Regimental Tie.  From what I heard on the call a few more changes are in the works.  The black leather jacket will be allowed with the new corporate, and the flight cap will be authorized for it as well.  This sure is a change in Air Force policy that has for years not allowed many changes to the CAP uniform. 

This is a corporate uniform, not an AF. The AF has pretty much taken a hands-off attitude to toward our corporate uniforms.

If it will replace the greys, I wonder when they'll approve a 'service' coat for it.

Quote from: mikeylikey on March 08, 2006, 08:42:36 PM
From a confrence call I had with national this will replace the grey pants and aviator shirt as soon as a memo is drafted.  It also means the end for the Regimental Tie.  From what I heard on the call a few more changes are in the works.  The black leather jacket will be allowed with the new corporate, and the flight cap will be authorized for it as well.  This sure is a change in Air Force policy that has for years not allowed many changes to the CAP uniform. 

So, this uniform is almost exactly like the Air Force's, and now the Flight Cap can be worn with it?  How about jackets?  Is the Leather Jacket the only one that can be worn, or can the Lightweight Blues Jacket, and the others be worn?  If so, are the greay Epaulets worn, or will it be the metal pin-on insignia?

Quote from: mikeylikey on March 08, 2006, 08:42:36 PMFrom a confrence call I had with national this will replace the grey pants and aviator shirt as soon as a memo is drafted.

And I just bought new grey pants!  Blast, I can't win in this organization!

Quote from: justin_bailey on March 08, 2006, 09:41:11 PM

Quote from: mikeylikey on March 08, 2006, 08:42:36 PMFrom a confrence call I had with national this will replace the grey pants and aviator shirt as soon as a memo is drafted.

And I just bought new grey pants!  Blast, I can't win in this organization!

Perhaps the grey pants may still be worn with the golf shirts.

Quote from: mikeylikey on March 08, 2006, 08:42:36 PM
and the flight cap will be authorized for it as well. 

This was brought up and voted on, but IIRC it failed.

Quote from: MIKE on March 08, 2006, 10:02:55 PM

Quote from: mikeylikey on March 08, 2006, 08:42:36 PM
and the flight cap will be authorized for it as well. 

This was brought up and voted on, but IIRC it failed.

That's what I thought too...
The premise being that it was mixing AF and CAP distinctive uniforms. 
I guess the AF trousers, belt and Actual USAF epaulet slides don't count.   ;D ::)

Quote from: tedda on March 08, 2006, 10:12:11 PM

Quote from: MIKE on March 08, 2006, 10:02:55 PM

Quote from: mikeylikey on March 08, 2006, 08:42:36 PM
and the flight cap will be authorized for it as well. 

This was brought up and voted on, but IIRC it failed.

That's what I thought too...
The premise being that it was mixing AF and CAP distinctive uniforms. 
I guess the AF trousers, belt and Actual USAF epaulet slides don't count.   ;D ::)

My thoughts exactly... I dunno how the CAP-USAF/CC can just sit there and let this go forward. 

Saves Money.... >:(

Quote from: MIKE on March 08, 2006, 10:26:19 PM
My thoughts exactly... I dunno how the CAP-USAF/CC can just sit there and let this go forward. 

Politically speaking, if Col H knows that the Air Staff will shoot this down like a Zeppelin over London, it doesn't cost him anything to sit there and let it go forward.

Speaking of Colonel H, might want to slide over to CAPBlog to post some Q&A questions for the CAP-USAF/CC.

Quote from: NIN on March 09, 2006, 11:18:36 AM

Quote from: MIKE on March 08, 2006, 10:26:19 PM
My thoughts exactly... I dunno how the CAP-USAF/CC can just sit there and let this go forward. 

Politically speaking, if Col H knows that the Air Staff will shoot this down like a Zeppelin over London, it doesn't cost him anything to sit there and let it go forward.

Speaking of Colonel H, might want to slide over to CAPBlog to post some Q&A questions for the CAP-USAF/CC.

Looks like the question has been asked already. 

No No No No NO!

I just received my Vanguard order with Candy Strip Tie!  Not to mention grey epaulets ....

I was hoping they would authorize a nice pair of grey walking shorts for wear with the golf shirt, for those hot summer days in the cockpit. Definitely would be more comfortable. Plus, you could shut down, post flight, close out the paperwork, and still hit the links for a quick 9 on your way home. I guess there is always hope.... :P

Quote from: smj58501 on March 09, 2006, 06:36:39 PM
[...] still hit the links for a quick 9 on your way home. I guess there is always hope.... :P

On the inverse... there is always Golden Tee on the computer in the nice, relaxing air conditioning  ;)

Okay.  New Uniform

1.  Headgear:  Grey Pith Helmt (see Postal Office Issue)

2.  Yellow Scarf w/CAP shield.

3. White Aviator Shirt

4.  Blue Shorts

5.  Black Knee High Socks

6.  Black (plain - no design) low quarters

With all due respect Maj Cranford, if this new uniform of yours doesn't include a sash for all my mini-medals and patches, then I'm just not interested in hearing about it...

Quote from: justin_bailey on March 09, 2006, 08:55:05 PM
With all due respect Maj Cranford, if this new uniform of yours doesn't include a sash for all my mini-medals and patches, then I'm just not interested in hearing about it...

And I'd like to see a powderhorn with shoulder strap, because everybody knows powderhorns rock.


No... make that really rock.

Powerhorns are not authorized.  Maybe they will go back to Sam Browne belts so seniors can wear their swords

Research shows that uniforms for men that involve shorts of any kind do not work.

(http://img71.imageshack.us/img71/1578/dangle9rg.png)

:-X

What are they going to do about Flight Officers wearing this uniform?

Silly goose, nobody cares about Flight Officers!  Onward with the willy-nilly uniform changes, I say!

Quote from: justin_bailey on March 09, 2006, 08:55:05 PM
With all due respect Maj Cranford, if this new uniform of yours doesn't include a sash for all my mini-medals and patches, then I'm just not interested in hearing about it...

Mini-medal and doo-dad sash was approved by committee vote with a show of fingers.  Above uniform combination is for field.  Sash approved for after dinner wear and parades.

Quote from: Pylon on March 09, 2006, 09:43:44 PM
Research shows that uniforms for men that involve shorts of any kind do not work.

(http://img71.imageshack.us/img71/1578/dangle9rg.png)

:-X

Arrrrrggghhhhhhh........NO SHORTS!  Please, I beg for forgiveness on this one.

Hey don't forget a pocket protector for the uniform with shorts.

I don't understand the tie issue.

The regimental tie (red/blue stripe) has not been authorized for wear with the Aviator whites for over two years - they went out with the black name tags.

Has this really not gotten out to the 4-corners or am I missing something?

Quote from: Eclipse on March 10, 2006, 08:31:47 AMThe regimental tie (red/blue stripe) has not been authorized for wear with the Aviator whites for over two years - they went out with the black name tags.

You're thinking of the tie with the logo embroidered on it, and only one stripe.  That wasn't called the regimental tie, it was something else (and the name escapes me at the moment).

The candy stripe tie has been authorized all along.  You can see it in the most recent uniform manual (Figure 4-1 on page 74, and Table 4-1 on page 80)

(edited: looking at my 1997 uniform manual, it says: "Navy blue, maroon, or regimental CAP tie".  The maroon one had a blue stripe and some type of logo embroidered on it, and it's gone now.)

No, I had it correct.  The regimental tie is the blue / red stripe.  There were also maroon and blues ties, respectively, which featured an embroidered logo in the center. 

I see where the confusion lies.

The "Blazer" uniform is not the same as the "Aviator Shirt with Epaulets".

The regimental tie is still authorized with the blazer uniform as you indicate.

However, 39-1 clearly indicates that the Aviator whites are a seperate combination, through photos and tables.

Page 74 features a photo of the whites, and indicates:

"3. Tie/Tab: USAF blue tie (males) or CAP blue ties/floppy bow are authorized. Mandatory with long
sleeve shirt..."

Page 83, Figure 4-3 indicates:

"USAF blue tie or CAP blue floppy bow must be worn with long sleeved
version, optional with short-sleeved version. Any other style or color
tie/floppy bow (including Regimental and ties with CAP Crest) is not
authorized. CAP blue floppy bow is available only from CAPMart..."

For quick ref, 39-1 is here:
http://level2.cap.gov/documents/u_082203102943.pdf

You are correct, sir!  That's odd, I wonder why they wrote it that way.

.

Personally I don't think a shirt is enough of a distinction.  I know my fellow airmen won't understand that a white shirt indicates the USAF auxiliary.  Instead what you'll get is, "Why is that [insert officer grade here] wearing a white shirt?" or "Why does that [insert officer grade here] wearing the white shirt have a beard?"  I'm sure there will be other, more derogatory comments that I'm not going to address here.

So what's wrong with the corporate uniform we have now?  Does the new one really bring us that closer to the AF?  Why not just throw everyone back into blues?  I mean if we want to "play" Air Force, let's play it all the way.  Our "distinctive" item can be our skivvies.  Do we really think this will make the AF take us more seriously?  Or is that something we are telling ourselves to stroke out egos? 

Additionally, if you want to be a real stickler for the regulations, this new uniform will force our AF members out of corporate uniforms.  You see, my uniform regulation (AFI36-2903 (http://www.e-publishing.af.mil/pubfiles/af/36/afi36-2903/afi36-2903.pdf)) says that I won't mix military and civilian items (or at least AFI36-2903 (http://www.e-publishing.af.mil/pubfiles/af/36/afi36-2903/afi36-2903.pdf), Table 1.3).  Everything about this new combo is military except the shirt.  It doesn't matter that CAP says it's okay.

All the recent uniform changes make me question the judgment of those chosen to lead our organization.  Aren't there more pressing issues to worry about?  Perhaps if "they" (the NEC/NB) would take the time to explain their logic to the general membership we'd have a better understanding of why this is such an important issue.  Silly me, I was focusing on other things.  I think they are looking for solutions to problems that don't exist. 

Perhaps it's time to hang up the spurs.  We'll see...

Let's take a slightly different tack on this:
Presuming the high mucky-mucks in the AF have approved (or at least not disapproved) this combination, it could be a possibility that the AF is willing to let CAP move closer to the family, while keeping some distance due to the physique of some of our members. I'll be the first to admit I don't know the AF uniforms regs, I am somewhat familiar with the CAP regs (some say I'm a-retentive about it ;D).

As for the future service dress coat, it will be hard to get one that is more like a business suit than the AF's three button suit coat with epaulets. About the only differences between a suit coat and the AF service dress coat is the lower pockets and epaulets. Personally, I would like to see a CAP service dress coat based on the old AF four pocket service dress coat (similar to the US Army's and many fire/police class A's) or a fire/police six button coat with service cap. I'll probably put this whole thing in writing sooner or later complete with pictures and graphics. One thing I won't change is the current specialty track badges - not that I think they are the greatest design around.

Quote from: shorningAll the recent uniform changes make me question the judgment of those chosen to lead our organization.  Aren't there more pressing issues to worry about?  Perhaps if "they" (the NEC/NB) would take the time to explain their logic to the general membership we'd have a better understanding of why this is such an important issue.  Silly me, I was focusing on other things.  I think they are looking for solutions to problems that don't exist.

I also think we have far more pressing things to worry about as a organization than what clothes we wear, such as the general perception that CAP "doesn't play well with others."

I really don't know about this new uniform combination.  I like the current aviator uniform.  I like the grey epaulets (especially since I have been around long enough to remember the ugly maroon ones).

I have to agree with the comment about mixing military and civilian uniform parts as well as someone on active duty not knowing a thing about CAP and then seeing one of our officers wearing this new 'CAP Distinctive' blue/white uniform.

I am hoping that someone on the AF side of the house will see the confusion and future complaints headed their way and be proactive now and put the breaks on it. 

What would be wrong with the blue epaulet sleeves on the white shirt with grey slacks? 

Okay, something positive:  Removing wing patches from the Air Force style uniform.  YES! 

Here's what I'm waiting for to happen in/with the new uniform:

Some SM [whatever rank] to let the epelauts go to his head and buy a Lightweight Blues Jacket, put [whatever rank] on it, and get into an arguement with some Military Person about not wearing  hat while outdoors in uniform.  I'm sure there will be stranger incidents, though.

Thankfully the Air Force doesn't make velcro epaulet sleeves like CAP does.  Said SM would have to use pin-on rank which (right now) is a no-go on any uniform.  Doesn't mean someone won't try it, unfortunately.

You know what I think.  I think someone at NHQ allowed retired USAF General Merrill McPeak into the building and asked his opinion on the uniforms.  He thought about it for a moment or two, recalling his attempt to make everyone in the Air Force look like civilian airline pilots.

"Gentlemen, I have your answer..." Merrill announced.

"What!  Oh please do tell General..."  they exclaimed in unison, "Please tell..."

"TSA Screeners.  That is what you should look like."

The Board Members looked at one another and nodded.  "This is good for we need yet another uniform combination."  It was said.

Then The Board Members all stood and pulled out their pledge cards and recited the Pledge of Silliness.  When the pledge was done the Master of Ceremonies announced.  "So Let it Be Written...So Let it Be Done..."

Quote from: Major_Chuck on March 16, 2006, 05:12:45 AM
You know what I think.  I think someone at NHQ allowed retired USAF General Merrill McPeak into the building and asked his opinion on the uniforms.  He thought about it for a moment or two, recalling his attempt to make everyone in the Air Force look like civilian airline pilots.

"Gentlemen, I have your answer..." Merrill announced.

"What!  Oh please do tell General..."  they exclaimed in unison, "Please tell..."

"TSA Screeners.  That is what you should look like."

The Board Members looked at one another and nodded.  "This is good for we need yet another uniform combination."  It was said.

Then The Board Members all stood and pulled out their pledge cards and recited the Pledge of Silliness.  When the pledge was done the Master of Ceremonies announced.  "So Let it Be Written...So Let it Be Done..."

I think you might be on to something Chuck... :D

And those with many zeroes exclaimed, "Silver medals of vacuousness for all!"

Then they ate Sir Robin's Minstrels and there was much rejoicing.

And then they pulled out the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch

Quote from: Major_Chuck on March 16, 2006, 05:11:17 PM
And then they pulled out the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch

......which would have caused MUCH more damage had the Lords of Silliness not been wearing their shiny new Cooper A-2's. Alas, it was just a flesh wound...... ;D

Quote from: RvrPk01 on March 17, 2006, 05:45:45 AM

Quote from: Major_Chuck on March 16, 2006, 05:11:17 PM
And then they pulled out the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch

......which would have caused MUCH more damage had the Lords of Silliness not been wearing their shiny new Cooper A-2's. Alas, it was just a flesh wound...... ;D

The Lords of Silliness heard comotion from outside to which the MC cried out "Runaway!  Runaway!"

Quote from: RvrPk01 on March 17, 2006, 05:45:45 AM

Quote from: Major_Chuck on March 16, 2006, 05:11:17 PM
And then they pulled out the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch

......which would have caused MUCH more damage had the Lords of Silliness not been wearing their shiny new Cooper A-2's. Alas, it was just a flesh wound...... ;D

[Holding the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch]
King Arthur: How does it... um... how does it work?
Sir Lancelot: I know not, my liege.
King Arthur: Consult the Book of Armaments.
Brother Maynard: Armaments, chapter two, verses nine through twenty-one.
Cleric: [reading] And Saint Attila raised the hand grenade up on high, saying, "O Lord, bless this thy hand grenade, that with it thou mayst blow thine enemies to tiny bits, in thy mercy." And the Lord did grin. And the people did feast upon the lambs and sloths, and carp and anchovies, and orangutans and breakfast cereals, and fruit-bats and large chu...
Brother Maynard: Skip a bit, Brother...
Cleric: And the Lord spake, saying, "First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin. Then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it.
Brother Maynard: Amen.
All: Amen.

Quote from: Major_Chuck on March 17, 2006, 06:20:18 AM

Quote from: RvrPk01 on March 17, 2006, 05:45:45 AM

Quote from: Major_Chuck on March 16, 2006, 05:11:17 PM
And then they pulled out the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch

......which would have caused MUCH more damage had the Lords of Silliness not been wearing their shiny new Cooper A-2's. Alas, it was just a flesh wound...... ;D

[Holding the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch]
King Arthur: How does it... um... how does it work?
Sir Lancelot: I know not, my liege.
King Arthur: Consult the Book of Armaments.
Brother Maynard: Armaments, chapter two, verses nine through twenty-one.
Cleric: [reading] And Saint Attila raised the hand grenade up on high, saying, "O Lord, bless this thy hand grenade, that with it thou mayst blow thine enemies to tiny bits, in thy mercy." And the Lord did grin. And the people did feast upon the lambs and sloths, and carp and anchovies, and orangutans and breakfast cereals, and fruit-bats and large chu...
Brother Maynard: Skip a bit, Brother...
Cleric: And the Lord spake, saying, "First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin. Then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it.
Brother Maynard: Amen.
All: Amen.

........well, I always wondered how business was done at the NB's........I'm surprised they didn't feel compelled to re-write the Book of Armaments.... ::)

Quote from: RvrPk01 on March 17, 2006, 06:35:55 AM

Quote from: Major_Chuck on March 17, 2006, 06:20:18 AM

Quote from: RvrPk01 on March 17, 2006, 05:45:45 AM

Quote from: Major_Chuck on March 16, 2006, 05:11:17 PM
And then they pulled out the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch

......which would have caused MUCH more damage had the Lords of Silliness not been wearing their shiny new Cooper A-2's. Alas, it was just a flesh wound...... ;D

[Holding the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch]
King Arthur: How does it... um... how does it work?
Sir Lancelot: I know not, my liege.
King Arthur: Consult the Book of Armaments.
Brother Maynard: Armaments, chapter two, verses nine through twenty-one.
Cleric: [reading] And Saint Attila raised the hand grenade up on high, saying, "O Lord, bless this thy hand grenade, that with it thou mayst blow thine enemies to tiny bits, in thy mercy." And the Lord did grin. And the people did feast upon the lambs and sloths, and carp and anchovies, and orangutans and breakfast cereals, and fruit-bats and large chu...
Brother Maynard: Skip a bit, Brother...
Cleric: And the Lord spake, saying, "First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin. Then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it.
Brother Maynard: Amen.
All: Amen.

........well, I always wondered how business was done at the NB's........I'm surprised they didn't feel compelled to re-write the Book of Armaments.... ::)

Hmmm...something for the Uniform Manual Committee to do for about seven years.

Is that the First Book of Armaments or the Second Book of Armaments?

Not book one or two,  read Book of Armaments 39-1 for the information Make sure it's the Sept 1248 AD reversion.

Got it!

Quote from: Major_Chuck on March 12, 2006, 08:04:14 PM
Okay, something positive:  Removing wing patches from the Air Force style uniform.  YES! 

Yeah, except I JUST finished sewing the wing patch on my new shirt!  Arrgh!

Chris Moore, 2d Lt, CAP
Sacramento Composite Sqadron 14

Quote from: cmoore on March 20, 2006, 05:16:14 AM

Quote from: Major_Chuck on March 12, 2006, 08:04:14 PM
Okay, something positive:  Removing wing patches from the Air Force style uniform.  YES! 

Yeah, except I JUST finished sewing the wing patch on my new shirt!  Arrgh!

Chris Moore, 2d Lt, CAP
Sacramento Composite Sqadron 14

I feel your pain -- well, almost, CA has a weird-butt wing patch, but as for sewing... just did 2 sets of BDU's... >:(  Really wish Nat'l could make up its mind!

For those that just sewed wing patches on...

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD DONT IRON IT!!!!!!!!!!!

Every wing patch I removed left a little glue stain from where the end thread of the patch was glued to the back.  When you iron the patch, the glue transfers to the uniform, and when it does it ain't coming out...ever.

On that note, if anyone knows a surefire way of removing ironed-in glue from uniforms, please let me know.

Quote from: dcpacemaker on March 20, 2006, 02:23:32 PM
On that note, if anyone knows a surefire way of removing ironed-in glue from uniforms, please let me know.

Buy a new shirt.  Guaranteed to work every time!  ;)

You might try putting the shirt in the freezer for a while, let the glue get brittle,and then use a stiff brush to remove it.  Acetone might also work, but try it on the tucked in parts first incase it changes the color. Worst that can happen is you still have to buy a new shirt...

Quote from: shorning on March 20, 2006, 02:44:55 PM

Quote from: dcpacemaker on March 20, 2006, 02:23:32 PM
On that note, if anyone knows a surefire way of removing ironed-in glue from uniforms, please let me know.

Buy a new shirt.  Guaranteed to work every time!  ;)

I did for my ss blue shirt, but that leaves 4 BDU tops, 1 BBDU top, and 1 ls blue shirt. :(

Quote from: Al Sayre on March 20, 2006, 02:58:06 PM
You might try putting the shirt in the freezer for a while, let the glue get brittle,and then use a stiff brush to remove it.  Acetone might also work, but try it on the tucked in parts first incase it changes the color. Worst that can happen is you still have to buy a new shirt...

Thanks, I'll try that.

Let me know how it works, I had just finished sewing mine on, so they came right off without any problems.

Quote from: dcpacemaker on March 20, 2006, 02:59:22 PM
I did for my ss blue shirt, but that leaves 4 BDU tops, 1 BBDU top, and 1 ls blue shirt. :(

I feel your pain.  Happens to me every three years when I move to a new wing.   Both on the CAP side and the AF side.  Fortunately, I've been good a timing my AF uniform purchase to coincide with PCS's.

Quote from: shorning on March 20, 2006, 02:44:55 PM
Buy a new shirt.  Guaranteed to work every time!  ;)

That's what I ended up having to do.  I start to remove the patch from one shirt... got a glue stain mark... threw the shirt away.  Removed the patch from another shirt... same thing... threw that one away.  Did that for 3 shirts... then I went to clothing sales, bought a new one, opened the package, ironed it, and put it on.  I was very happy.

Quote from: shorning on March 20, 2006, 03:08:49 PM
I feel your pain.  Happens to me every three years when I move to a new wing.   Both on the CAP side and the AF side.  Fortunately, I've been good a timing my AF uniform purchase to coincide with PCS's.

At least the AF got witty and made (most) of the MAJCOM patches the same size.  Worked for me when I moved from AMC to AETC -- the new patch snuggles just perfect in the crease of the old patch.  Of course, for y'all that have to wear wing/squadron patches... sucks to be you. :)

Quote from: mclarty on March 22, 2006, 01:31:24 AM
Of course, for y'all that have to wear wing/squadron patches... sucks to be you. :)

Hmmmm...I do wear a patch, but I don't have a MAJCOM patch or a wing/squadron patch on my BDUs.   I still had to buy new BDUs when I PCS'd here.


On a side note to the tangent...anyone have a source better than Vanguard for the field uniform?  I'm finally fed up that they can not get me my order.  I'm looking around and have found a few places, but I wondering what others have found.  Of course, I could just go to clothing sales and buy some woodlands...

".....That's what I ended up having to do.  I start to remove the patch from one shirt... got a glue stain mark... threw the shirt away...."

That's what I thought I'd have to do when I removed the wing patches and found the glue mark. But as the last resort after trying a few "home remedies", I went to the local dry cleaners showed them the shirts, and they said they would see what they could do. I told them that if it they messed the shirts not to worry as I would have to throw them away anyway.
But hey! to my surprise they took care of them - no marks and no evidence that a patch had even been there - I asked how they did it, but the lady couldn't tell me, it was one of the other staff that got the glue mark off. Didn't even fade the shirts or anything like that. Charged me $4 a shirt to do that and dry clean them as well - way better than having to buy new ones.

Quote from: shorning on March 22, 2006, 01:54:39 AM
On a side note to the tangent...anyone have a source better than Vanguard for the field uniform?  I'm finally fed up that they can not get me my order.  I'm looking around and have found a few places, but I wondering what others have found.  Of course, I could just go to clothing sales and buy some woodlands...

Try Galls, www.galls.com (http://www.galls.com) or just about any police uniform shop.

Quote from: mclarty on March 22, 2006, 01:31:24 AM

At least the AF got witty and made (most) of the MAJCOM patches the same size. 

I thought all of the Air Force's MAJCOM Patches were the same size.  Whch ones are different?

Quote from: shorning on March 22, 2006, 01:54:39 AM
On a side note to the tangent...anyone have a source better than Vanguard for the field uniform?  I'm finally fed up that they can not get me my order.  I'm looking around and have found a few places, but I wondering what others have found.  Of course, I could just go to clothing sales and buy some woodlands...

US Calalry [http://www.uscav.com (http://www.uscav.com)] has them.  I just looked at my book.  Quartermaster [http://www.qmuniforms.com (http://www.qmuniforms.com)] also has them, as does Brigade Quartermasters [http://www.actiongear.com (http://www.actiongear.com)].  I saw it posted earlier, but I just looked, and Galls [http://www.galls.com (http://www.galls.com)] has them also.  Good luck in finding them, sir!

Quote from: Viper on March 22, 2006, 04:41:58 AM
I thought all of the Air Force's MAJCOM Patches were the same size.  Whch ones are different?

If you buy one through some commercial vendors, they might be slightly awkwardly sized... if you are assigned to a COCOM and wear the seal patch instead of a shield, the crease will have a different shape... and some DRU's patches are a little whacked (I know AFPC's used to be, I'm not sure if they have fixed that).  Just as some examples.

Quote from: Lamh Dearg on March 22, 2006, 02:16:14 AM
".....That's what I ended up having to do.  I start to remove the patch from one shirt... got a glue stain mark... threw the shirt away...."

That's what I thought I'd have to do when I removed the wing patches and found the glue mark. But as the last resort after trying a few "home remedies", I went to the local dry cleaners showed them the shirts, and they said they would see what they could do. I told them that if it they messed the shirts not to worry as I would have to throw them away anyway.
But hey! to my surprise they took care of them - no marks and no evidence that a patch had even been there - I asked how they did it, but the lady couldn't tell me, it was one of the other staff that got the glue mark off. Didn't even fade the shirts or anything like that. Charged me $4 a shirt to do that and dry clean them as well - way better than having to buy new ones.

Yeah, for the natural sticky stuff that's on the back of the patch, you're right... but my shirts were tailor made at the local uniform shop, and they sewed the patches on for me and used a small little dab of super-adhesive something to hold the patch in place while they sewed it on... and that's what was left when the patch was removed, a small little 1/4" dark blue dot on the shirt.  Almost looked like a stain, but it was identical on all three shirts.

Quote from: dcpacemaker on March 20, 2006, 02:23:32 PMOn that note, if anyone knows a surefire way of removing ironed-in glue from uniforms, please let me know.

As has been suggested, acetone. Another favorite of mine is aliphatic naphtha, available in little cans labelled lighter fluid (Ronsonol or Zippo brands are most common). In terms of flammability, it's actually better than acetone, and not much worse than rubbing alcohol.

If you don't like that idea, there's an even less flammable alternative that is orange oil based called Goo Gone.

As recommended, always check on a tuck-in part of the shirt to test for compatability.

If that doesn't work, PM me and I'll give a couple of more suggestions.

One little trick is to also take some tracing/ tissue paper and put it behind the patch.  This will keep anything from bleeding onto the cloth.

Also try  Brigade Quartermasters for BDU's etc.. they have a great selection and they are up on things in terms of speed.

Quote from: Pit Bull on March 22, 2006, 01:55:44 PM
Also try  Brigade Quartermasters for BDU's etc.. they have a great selection and they are up on things in terms of speed.

There is no such thing as "speed" when shipping to Hawaii.  It's either 2-day air, or boat... >:(

Quote from: shorning on March 22, 2006, 09:00:56 PM

Quote from: Pit Bull on March 22, 2006, 01:55:44 PM
Also try  Brigade Quartermasters for BDU's etc.. they have a great selection and they are up on things in terms of speed.

There is no such thing as "speed" when shipping to Hawaii.  It's either 2-day air, or boat... >:(

What are you talking about?  I used to watch Magnum P.I.  They never had any problems getting stuff from the mainland.  Maybe back in the day of Danno and McGarret.

Quote from: Major_Chuck on March 22, 2006, 09:25:55 PM

Quote from: shorning on March 22, 2006, 09:00:56 PM

Quote from: Pit Bull on March 22, 2006, 01:55:44 PM
Also try  Brigade Quartermasters for BDU's etc.. they have a great selection and they are up on things in terms of speed.

There is no such thing as "speed" when shipping to Hawaii.  It's either 2-day air, or boat... >:(

What are you talking about?  I used to watch Magnum P.I.  They never had any problems getting stuff from the mainland.  Maybe back in the day of Danno and McGarret.

It's not about getting things.  It's about getting them quickly.  Everything I've ordered 2nd-day air still takes at least a week for me to get it at a lot more cost. >:(   Although, I recently ordered some books for school and chose "standard" UPS ground.  I was surprised that it actually worked.  It was cheaper and I got the books in the same time I would have if I had selected 2nd-day air. ???

I talked to Vanguard yesterday. They have the name plates and epaulet slides in stock. The pants they haven't received yet. The ones listed are CAPMart's old stock of AF uniforms.

A thought, (I know, bad habit ;D)
For the sake of commonality on this board, how calling the new corporate uniform "corporate blues" and the old aviator shirt uniform "corporate greys"?

Quote from: shorning on March 22, 2006, 01:54:39 AM

On a side note to the tangent...anyone have a source better than Vanguard for the field uniform?  I'm finally fed up that they can not get me my order.  I'm looking around and have found a few places, but I wondering what others have found.  Of course, I could just go to clothing sales and buy some woodlands...

Just a thought:  Is there a Goast Guard Uniform place near you?  IIRC, it's the same uniform as the CAP DBFU.

Quote from: Viper on March 23, 2006, 09:39:19 PM

Quote from: shorning on March 22, 2006, 01:54:39 AM

On a side note to the tangent...anyone have a source better than Vanguard for the field uniform?  I'm finally fed up that they can not get me my order.  I'm looking around and have found a few places, but I wondering what others have found.  Of course, I could just go to clothing sales and buy some woodlands...

Just a thought:  Is there a Goast Guard Uniform place near you?  IIRC, it's the same uniform as the CAP DBFU.

The Operational Dress Uniform (ODU) is definitely NOT the same uniform as the CAP Field Uniform.

Quote from: Viper on March 23, 2006, 09:39:19 PM

Quote from: shorning on March 22, 2006, 01:54:39 AM

On a side note to the tangent...anyone have a source better than Vanguard for the field uniform?  I'm finally fed up that they can not get me my order.  I'm looking around and have found a few places, but I wondering what others have found.  Of course, I could just go to clothing sales and buy some woodlands...

Just a thought:  Is there a Goast Guard Uniform place near you?  IIRC, it's the same uniform as the CAP DBFU.

The only thing that the CG wears that CAP can wear is trops, even those are a bit different (fabric, etc.) ODUs don't look like BBDUs... I don't know what DBFUs are...

Quote from: MIKE on March 23, 2006, 09:50:35 PM

Quote from: Viper on March 23, 2006, 09:39:19 PM

Quote from: shorning on March 22, 2006, 01:54:39 AM

On a side note to the tangent...anyone have a source better than Vanguard for the field uniform?  I'm finally fed up that they can not get me my order.  I'm looking around and have found a few places, but I wondering what others have found.  Of course, I could just go to clothing sales and buy some woodlands...

Just a thought:  Is there a Goast Guard Uniform place near you?  IIRC, it's the same uniform as the CAP DBFU.

The Operational Dress Uniform (ODU) is definitely NOT the same uniform as the CAP Field Uniform.

At least not until CAP decides we should tuck in our shirts.  Hey...they've made sillier changes.

Quote from: shorning on March 23, 2006, 09:57:16 PM

Quote from: MIKE on March 23, 2006, 09:50:35 PM

Quote from: Viper on March 23, 2006, 09:39:19 PM

Quote from: shorning on March 22, 2006, 01:54:39 AM

On a side note to the tangent...anyone have a source better than Vanguard for the field uniform?  I'm finally fed up that they can not get me my order.  I'm looking around and have found a few places, but I wondering what others have found.  Of course, I could just go to clothing sales and buy some woodlands...

Just a thought:  Is there a Goast Guard Uniform place near you?  IIRC, it's the same uniform as the CAP DBFU.

The Operational Dress Uniform (ODU) is definitely NOT the same uniform as the CAP Field Uniform.

At least not until CAP decides we should tuck in our shirts.  Hey...they've made sillier changes.

Hah, I'm hoping that the CG will do away with that. I understand the reason is that we don't want to get sucked into machinery while underway, but it makes us look like car mechanics and most people deblouse underway anyways...

Quote from: merlin0085 on March 23, 2006, 09:53:38 PM
The only thing that the CG wears that CAP can wear is trops, even those are a bit different (fabric, etc.) ODUs don't look like BBDUs... I don't know what DBFUs are...

UDC says the S/S and L/S light blue shirts are same material and color as the Air Force light blue shirts.  Go look at one of yours for Trops and SDB Bravo and see if it even has the USAF certification on it.  I was gonna have my shirts pull double duty once I cut the wing patches off 'em.

Other stuff that is common to USAF and USCG are the pullover and cardigan sweaters and the male lightweight blue jacket.

Quote from: MIKE on March 23, 2006, 10:17:21 PM

Quote from: merlin0085 on March 23, 2006, 09:53:38 PM
The only thing that the CG wears that CAP can wear is trops, even those are a bit different (fabric, etc.) ODUs don't look like BBDUs... I don't know what DBFUs are...

UDC says the S/S and L/S light blue shirts are same material and color as the Air Force light blue shirts.  Go look at one of yours for Trops and SDB Bravo and see if it even has the USAF certification on it.  I was gonna have my shirts pull double duty once I cut the wing patches off 'em.

Other stuff that is common to USAF and USCG are the pullover and cardigan sweaters and the male lightweight blue jacket.

I thought the trousers/slacks, dress belt, and garrison cap were the same as AF too?

Quote from: mclarty on March 24, 2006, 01:25:25 AM
I thought the trousers/slacks, dress belt, and garrison cap were the same as AF too?

Nope... Different shade of blue... I think the back pockets on the trousers have a different sort of button closure on 'em also.  For a time USAF trousers were authorized as a temporary thing though IIRC... Also USCG belts are black with brass hardware... CGAux belts are black with silver/chrome hardware... And I think the garrison cap is a somewhat different style than the USAF one, aside from being a different shade.

Quote from: MIKE on March 23, 2006, 09:50:35 PM

Quote from: Viper on March 23, 2006, 09:39:19 PM

Quote from: shorning on March 22, 2006, 01:54:39 AM

On a side note to the tangent...anyone have a source better than Vanguard for the field uniform?  I'm finally fed up that they can not get me my order.  I'm looking around and have found a few places, but I wondering what others have found.  Of course, I could just go to clothing sales and buy some woodlands...

Just a thought:  Is there a Goast Guard Uniform place near you?  IIRC, it's the same uniform as the CAP DBFU.

The Operational Dress Uniform (ODU) is definitely NOT the same uniform as the CAP Field Uniform.

Sorry, I thought it was.  At least that's how it looks on TV.

Quote from: MIKE on March 23, 2006, 10:17:21 PM

Quote from: merlin0085 on March 23, 2006, 09:53:38 PM
The only thing that the CG wears that CAP can wear is trops, even those are a bit different (fabric, etc.) ODUs don't look like BBDUs... I don't know what DBFUs are...

UDC says the S/S and L/S light blue shirts are same material and color as the Air Force light blue shirts.  Go look at one of yours for Trops and SDB Bravo and see if it even has the USAF certification on it.  I was gonna have my shirts pull double duty once I cut the wing patches off 'em.

Other stuff that is common to USAF and USCG are the pullover and cardigan sweaters and the male lightweight blue jacket.

I saw a Coast Guarsdman in the AAFES MCSS on Andrews AFB checking out the Lightweight Blues Jacket, and I thought then that he could wear them.

Quote from: Viper on March 24, 2006, 02:53:28 AM

Quote from: MIKE on March 23, 2006, 09:50:35 PM

Quote from: Viper on March 23, 2006, 09:39:19 PM

Quote from: shorning on March 22, 2006, 01:54:39 AM

On a side note to the tangent...anyone have a source better than Vanguard for the field uniform?  I'm finally fed up that they can not get me my order.  I'm looking around and have found a few places, but I wondering what others have found.  Of course, I could just go to clothing sales and buy some woodlands...

Just a thought:  Is there a Coast Guard Uniform place near you?  IIRC, it's the same uniform as the CAP DBFU.

The Operational Dress Uniform (ODU) is definitely NOT the same uniform as the CAP Field Uniform.

Sorry, I thought it was.  At least that's how it looks on TV.

Quote from: MIKE on March 23, 2006, 10:17:21 PM

Quote from: merlin0085 on March 23, 2006, 09:53:38 PM
The only thing that the CG wears that CAP can wear is trops, even those are a bit different (fabric, etc.) ODUs don't look like BBDUs... I don't know what DBFUs are...

UDC says the S/S and L/S light blue shirts are same material and color as the Air Force light blue shirts.  Go look at one of yours for Trops and SDB Bravo and see if it even has the USAF certification on it.  I was gonna have my shirts pull double duty once I cut the wing patches off 'em.

Other stuff that is common to USAF and USCG are the pullover and cardigan sweaters and the male lightweight blue jacket.

I saw a Coast Guarsdman in the AAFES MCSS on Andrews AFB checking out the Lightweight Blues Jacket, and I thought then that he could wear them.

OK, maybe I overgeneralized a tad bit. The blue shirts are the same. Mike was right about that, they do have AF certification on them. The garrisons, trou, SDB jackets, etc are different. I couldn't find anything AF certified on my lightweight blues jacket, but as far as I can tell it's the same thing the AF uses... maybe just a slightly different shade of blue. Thanks for catching that.

The CG Aux can wear USAF blue pants and jacket. The flight cap is the same as the enlisted air force. With the lack of supplies, they have allowed these minor exceptions. I am in the Aux and use my CAP/AF pants with my shirt for the Aux. When you start to look at the different uniforms like the winter dress blues, and the service dress they are a different shade of blue.

The Aux has many different uniforms as well. However, there is only one civilian uniform and it resembles the blue golf shirt with grey slacks. All of the other uniforms are military. Since there is no weigth requirements they perfer that you wear the CG uniform. The only condition is to wear it with pride. What each person brings to the table means more to the Aux than I think it does to CAP. They don't harp on you with uniform standards( the uniform must be clean and serviceable).

With the drop in membership, due to the security clearance requirement, they are happy to be able to perform their misson and look good while doing so.

What Auxies do and what the AUXMAN says is often vastly different... Especially concerning uniforms.  I learned this rather quickly upon joining.

Quote from: AUXILIARY MANUAL COMDTINST M16790.1FG.9.a. Trousers Trousers shall be the same as those prescribed for Service Dress Blue uniform.

Quote from: AUXILIARY MANUAL COMDTINST M16790.1FG.3.b. Trousers The trousers shall be of conventional plain design with no cuff and of the same
material and color as the coat. Air Force trousers will not be worn with the Coast
Guard Auxiliary uniform.

If anyone gets a chance or feels willing to have their photograph taken in our new uniform please do and post it.  I would be interested to see what it looked like not against a dark background.

Broke down and ordered the AF style epaulets.  Now to go and order the name badge.  Might as well get a new shirt while I am at it.

Quote from: Major_Chuck on March 28, 2006, 04:47:41 AM
If anyone gets a chance or feels willing to have their photograph taken in our new uniform please do and post it.  I would be interested to see what it looked like not against a dark background.

Broke down and ordered the AF style epaulets.  Now to go and order the name badge.  Might as well get a new shirt while I am at it.

I'll probably have a picture for you by the end of the week or so.  I already have the USAF shouldermarks, and the nameplate is on order.  Hopefully I won't be the only one posting "wear-test" photos, though.  ;)

Quote from: Pylon on March 28, 2006, 05:13:41 PM
I'll probably have a picture for you by the end of the week or so.  I already have the USAF shouldermarks, and the nameplate is on order.  Hopefully I won't be the only one posting "wear-test" photos, though.  ;)

Aw Mike, if you're shy about being the only one showing off the new geddup, I'll go buy a pair of AF epaulets, dig out my old cadet nameplate, and throw the uniform together for a picture.  It won't be 100% within reg (3-line instead of 2-line nameplate), but pretty farkin' close for picture effect.

Quote from: Pylon on March 28, 2006, 05:13:41 PM

Quote from: Major_Chuck on March 28, 2006, 04:47:41 AM
If anyone gets a chance or feels willing to have their photograph taken in our new uniform please do and post it.  I would be interested to see what it looked like not against a dark background.

Broke down and ordered the AF style epaulets.  Now to go and order the name badge.  Might as well get a new shirt while I am at it.

I'll probably have a picture for you by the end of the week or so.  I already have the USAF shouldermarks, and the nameplate is on order.  Hopefully I won't be the only one posting "wear-test" photos, though.  ;)

Tell you what, since it was my suggestion I'll post my photo when my stuff comes in.  The shoulder marks are supposed to be being shipped from Vanguard and I just ordered the name badge.

-chuck

So we can expect to see you around...Memorial Day? ;D

Quote from: arajca on March 30, 2006, 05:43:32 AM
So we can expect to see you around...Memorial Day? ;D

Of 2007...

Quote from: shorning on March 30, 2006, 06:11:34 AM

Quote from: arajca on March 30, 2006, 05:43:32 AM
So we can expect to see you around...Memorial Day? ;D

Of 2007...

Oh I have a little more confidence in Vanguard now....I would say you're going to see me around Presidents Day 2007.   ;D

1800nametapes got me the nametag in 1 day, I found the epaulets on ebay and recieved the in two - both via USPS.

So no excuses on long-turn around, and no specific reason to use Vanguard.

Quote from: Eclipse on March 30, 2006, 04:30:06 PM
1800nametapes got me the nametag in 1 day...

Did you pay for expedited shipping?  I ordered mine earlier this week and hasn't seen hide nor tail or it yet.  Not that I expected overnight turnaround, but it just surprised me that yours came so quickly.

I ordered them on a whim.  Our "big" meeting is the first of the month, and I was hoping to have them for next Tuesday.

I asked the eBay guy to bust a move, but just pushed the nameplate through the website.  No one is more shocked than me on the quick turn-around.

Okay, okay... the moment you've all been waiting for (and the one that I've been trying to avoid)...

The new CAP Corporate Uniform as modeled by some goof.

[attachment deleted by admin- older than one year]

You just don't seemed excited about the new duds.

My Vanguard order arrived with the epaulets today (AF Style) and I'm just waiting for the name tag.  As promised, I too will place myself up for public ridicle.

Here's my new uniform shirt... I'll be sporting it tomorrow night at the cadet meeting. Full photos of the uniform when I put 'em on tomorrow. Don't expect 'Glamour Shots'.  ;D
(http://mysite.verizon.net/txokmason/Chuck_New_CAP_Shirt.jpg)

Today must be "Wear the Type 2 Aviator Uniform" Day....or April Fools Day.

Taught a CPPT/Level 1 and figured, "why not?"

See attached.

[attachment deleted by admin- older than one year]

I don't know if I'm speaking for myself here, or not.  I for one, like the new uniform.  It gives members who do not meet the weight, or grooming requirements a chance to look more USAF, and less Corprate Pilot.  I for one, am glad I do not have to wear gray pants.  :)   
I look much better in blue anyway. ;D

Quote from: AlphaSigOU on April 01, 2006, 06:33:45 PM
Here's my new uniform shirt... I'll be sporting it tomorrow night at the cadet meeting. Full photos of the uniform when I put 'em on tomorrow. Don't expect 'Glamour Shots'.  ;D

No encampment ribbon Lt ?

I'm a little confused by that rack myself, though as a Senior you're only supposed to wear the encampment ribbon if you were on staff.

Seems a little light for a Cadet Major, who's now a 1lt.

Quote from: SFox167 on April 02, 2006, 01:47:07 AM
I don't know if I'm speaking for myself here, or not.  I for one, like the new uniform.  It gives members who do not meet the weight, or grooming requirements a chance to look more USAF, and less Corprate Pilot.  I for one, am glad I do not have to wear gray pants.  :)   
I look much better in blue anyway. ;D

Based on the pic above, I think it is safe to say that I don't mind the uniform at all.  I tend to wear all the uniforms (yes, the beard comes off and on on whims) and this one isn't bad.

I'd really appreciate it if we had the requirement to wear the 1990s-era blue rank insignia with the embroidered "CAP" on it...I for one like the distinctive look that says, "I'm CAP...an auxiliary of the USAF: not the USAF."

And I'm a proud USAF vet so, don't think me anti-USAF.

-msmjr2003

PS - And by the way, there's proof above that even a few of us field-grade senior members can run 4 miles a day and keep the "dunlap" disease in check (at least it's working for me, thus far!)  Nothing wrong with being overweight if that is one's druthers but...far too many folks think the CAP distinctive uniforms are only for those seniors that can't meet the standards.  Some of us can meet the standards as quick as a shave!

Quote from: MIKE on April 02, 2006, 01:52:44 AM

Quote from: AlphaSigOU on April 01, 2006, 06:33:45 PM
Here's my new uniform shirt... I'll be sporting it tomorrow night at the cadet meeting. Full photos of the uniform when I put 'em on tomorrow. Don't expect 'Glamour Shots'.  ;D

No encampment ribbon Lt ?

Had one with a bronze clasp first time around when I was a senior from 1985-88 (carried over from WIWAC), but unfortunately my old records went -POOF!- after a 17-year break in membership. So I gotta start over (unless Georgia Wing keeps cadet encampment records that far back). :(

Quote from: msmjr2003 on April 02, 2006, 02:00:23 AM
I'd really appreciate it if we had the requirement to wear the 1990s-era blue rank insignia with the embroidered "CAP" on it...I for one like the distinctive look that says, "I'm CAP...an auxiliary of the USAF: not the USAF."

I wouldn't be surprised if USAF makes us go back to those old blue epaulets with CAP on them, once the general USAF population finishes having their conniption fit of titanic proportions.

Quote from: Eclipse on April 02, 2006, 01:58:25 AM
I'm a little confused by that rack myself, though as a Senior you're only supposed to wear the encampment ribbon if you were on staff.

Seems a little light for a Cadet Major, who's now a 1lt.

A 17-year break in membership will do that to you...  ;D Once had SLS and CLC, as well as a tech rating, unfortunately my records were lost. No proof, no pudding.  ;D

I meant no offense to anyone that is overweight, or that is perfectly fit.  I'm just stating that I like the newer  style.  8)

OFF TOPIC - SM Fox - sorry to call you out on this, but you may want to change your sig to IL Wing (not 61st Wing), & Fox Valley Composite Squadron (not 274th)

Quote from: AlphaSigOU on April 02, 2006, 02:06:24 AM

Quote from: msmjr2003 on April 02, 2006, 02:00:23 AM
I'd really appreciate it if we had the requirement to wear the 1990s-era blue rank insignia with the embroidered "CAP" on it...I for one like the distinctive look that says, "I'm CAP...an auxiliary of the USAF: not the USAF."

I wouldn't be surprised if USAF makes us go back to those old blue epaulets with CAP on them, once the general USAF population finishes having their conniption fit of titanic proportions.

If they do, it'll still be an improvement.

Quote from: Lamh Dearg on April 02, 2006, 04:59:49 AM
OFF TOPIC - SM Fox - sorry to call you out on this, but you may want to change your sig to IL Wing (not 61st Wing), & Fox Valley Composite Squadron (not 274th)

Not to gang up on you further, but likewise, you should change 'U.S. Air Force Auxiliary' to 'CAP' or 'Civil Air Patrol'. While we are the U.S. Air Force's Auxiliary, the Air Force and CAP brass prefers that we use our corporate name. (Not too long ago, the Texas wing king put out a policy letter cracking down on more than a few who put 'USAF Aux' instead of 'CAP' in their signature lines on official correspondence.)

OFF TOPIC- Thank you for the useful info.  I'm new at this being a SM since Feb. of this year.  Last time I was in CAP was from 96-98.  I will make the changes, and will keep in mind if I ever need to send letters on CAP business.  Thank's Again   :D

(http://group22.net/files/other/new_distinctive.jpg)

In the new duds, note lighter color of nametag...

Quote from: msmjr2003 on April 02, 2006, 12:34:54 AM
Today must be "Wear the Type 2 Aviator Uniform" Day....or April Fools Day.

Taught a CPPT/Level 1 and figured, "why not?"

See attached.

Major, aren't you supposed to wear a v-neck with an open collar?  I only noticed it when I was zooming to see your nametag.

Quote from: Eclipse on April 05, 2006, 06:06:16 AM

Quote from: msmjr2003 on April 02, 2006, 12:34:54 AM
Today must be "Wear the Type 2 Aviator Uniform" Day....or April Fools Day.

Taught a CPPT/Level 1 and figured, "why not?"

See attached.

Major, aren't you supposed to wear a v-neck with an open collar?  I only noticed it when I was zooming to see your nametag.

Certainly in the service uniform...but methinks not so in the aviator styles.

Have a peek and if I'm mistaken, I'll eat crow.  Otherwise, you can have my slice!  :)

Take care,
-msmjr2003

Quote from: msmjr2003 on April 05, 2006, 06:53:32 AM

Quote from: Eclipse on April 05, 2006, 06:06:16 AM

Quote from: msmjr2003 on April 02, 2006, 12:34:54 AM
Today must be "Wear the Type 2 Aviator Uniform" Day....or April Fools Day.

Taught a CPPT/Level 1 and figured, "why not?"

See attached.

Major, aren't you supposed to wear a v-neck with an open collar?  I only noticed it when I was zooming to see your nametag.

Certainly in the Service Uniform...but methinks not so in the aviator.  Have a peek and if I'm mistaken, I'll eat crow.  Otherwise, we're all the wiser.

Actually, I'm under the same impression.  I haven't seen it specified for corporate uniforms, but then I really haven't looked recently. 

On the other hand, I really don't like the new uniform.  It's that image that makes me reconsider my membership.  YMMV...

Eh, not specified except for:

"8 Undergarments Appropriate undergarments will be worn." (Page 34 CAPM 39-1)

I'd read interperate that as meaning we should match the USAF Blues, but that's just one interperatation.

Frankly, you can't win.  I think the visible shirt collar under a dress shirt is unsightly,
but I really don't think exposed chest hair is any better (as under the blues), and I've got some guys in my unit(s) that look like they are hiding a cat in their shirt.   :D

So I'll split the slice with you...

Quote from: shorning on April 05, 2006, 06:58:08 AM
On the other hand, I really don't like the new uniform.  It's that image that makes me reconsider my membership.  YMMV...

Yeah, I know... I'm that much closer to dropping a letter to go into CAPRAP with all this uniform garbage.

Quote from: Eclipse on April 05, 2006, 07:12:13 AM
Eh, not specified except for:

"8 Undergarments Appropriate undergarments will be worn." (Page 34 CAPM 39-1)
I'd read interperate that as meaning we should match the USAF Blues, but that's just one interperatation.

A great point you highlight here is the fact that perception is relavant (in surely all things.)

I feel that this is one of the aspects that makes the aviator combo(s) an attractive alternative option because...Johnny Salami/Joannie Baloney will see me and think, "the USAF doesn't wear a crew-neck whereas this guy in CAP does...he must not be USAF."

One could logically conclude: "that's distinct."  Reckon that's a good name to call this puppy....a CAP distinctive uniform!  :)

Quote from: Eclipse on April 05, 2006, 07:12:13 AMFrankly, you can't win.  I think the visible shirt collar under a dress shirt is unsightly,
but I really don't think exposed chest hair is any better (as under the blues), and I've got some guys in my unit(s) that look like they are hiding a cat in their shirt.   :D

"You" as in the second person "you" our "you" as in me directly (you can't win?)  Lightheartedly, neither of us had anything to lose so I'm guessing you imply the former.

But YES....the "Jack Tripper" look is an interesting thing to see....  Just don't be drinking a cup of coffee when one suddenly meets a "Jack Tripper."  Coffee all over!    :)

Quote from: Eclipse on April 05, 2006, 07:12:13 AMSo I'll split the slice with you...

And how to keep my "girlish figure" with crow in the gullet?  :)

Take care,
-msmjr2003

So I wore the new corporate uniform to the squadron meeting last night. Good reviews, lot of questions asked. Of course, I had to gently correct some members misguided notions ("do we wear the new epaulets on the grays?" (No, only on the new combination.) "do we wear the blue epaulets on blues?" (Not only no, but HELL NO! Wanna torque off the RealAirForce?) Does this replace the grays? (No.)).

I'm waiting for some guidance on what the standard is for the new nametag: is it the Vanguard-style with all caps or the upper/lower case?

I think tha CAP has toooo many uniforms thus causing non uniformity

I can tell you from past experience as Squadron Commander and later as Group Commander,uniforms for CC Call was one of my biggest challange, althought I kept it simple, many of my Staff and squadron CC use to show up any way theu could.

Alll we need is three basic uniforms

SM:
Flight suits for the flyers
BDU for our Ground Team
other than that the rest is all cooprate stuff, the white shirt or the blue polo shirt and be done.
Cadets:

this is completly diffrent program:

Give them  all of the Air Force's Uniforms

So, we're supposed to wear aviator shirt, AF trousers, special blue nametag, AF blue epaulets and AF belt.   Have I got it right so far?  Now the big question - what color socks?
   

Quote from: Camas on May 05, 2006, 01:18:34 AM
So, we're supposed to wear aviator shirt, AF trousers, special blue nametag, AF blue epaulets and AF belt.   Have I got it right so far?  Now the big question - what color socks?
   

I want so much to wear my red and orange Argyles.  8)

 

QuoteI want so much to wear my red and orange Argyles

It's interesting that you mentioned that; I remember a 2d Lt some years ago who wore argyles with his blues.  He should have known better as he was ex-Air Force.  I wasn't his commander so I just kept quiet.  He's no longer with CAP.

Quote from: SER Safety on April 05, 2006, 03:51:07 PM
I think tha CAP has toooo many uniforms thus causing non uniformity

I can tell you from past experience as Squadron Commander and later as Group Commander,uniforms for CC Call was one of my biggest challange, althought I kept it simple, many of my Staff and squadron CC use to show up any way theu could.

Alll we need is three basic uniforms

SM:
Flight suits for the flyers
BDU for our Ground Team
other than that the rest is all cooprate stuff, the white shirt or the blue polo shirt and be done.
Cadets:

this is completly diffrent program:

Give them  all of the Air Force's Uniforms

It is said that the mark of a truly intelligent person is how closely that individual agrees with you....you, sir, are REALLY intelligent!

I have felt the same way for several years, and many seniors seem to agree....let's simplify the senior uniforms, cut down on confusion, cost, and needless conflict with our parent service.

Here's my own take on it.  HQ has been wanting to get rid of the gray epaulets for quite some time. (There is a story behind how we lost the blue ones to start with--but I'll leave that alone ;)  )  The corporate uniform is just a way to get the foot in the door.  You know, kinda get the USAF bigwigs used to seeing them on the corp. stuff.  Then at a good time when CAP has done some really neato thing for USAF, "Oh BTW, could we change over to the blue on all uniforms?"  That "easing in via the back door" has been done before.

How many remember the burgandy epaulets? ;D  People in my Wing quit in a huff over that!  LOL!


Jerry

Just picked this up on Cadet Stuff:



The NEC Just voted on a new service dress for SM's.

This new corporate service uniform consists of:

Service Cap or Flight Cap
White Shirt
USAF Blue Tie
Blue Double Breasted Coat w/sliver or white braid on cuff
USAF Blue trousers
Plain Black Shoes and socks.

1. Members must meet grooming standards to wear this uniform. Weight standard does not apply.

2. Headgear is now required for this uniform. members have 2 choices. Service Cap is USAF with addition of silver braid instead of black chinstrap. Flight Cap is worn with Rank on the right and no CAP device. Flight cap is worn as per USAF Uniform. (NCO's blue braid, oficers blue/sliver and generals silver.) Service cap is worn as USAF.

3. Metal name tag is worn with CAP badges, ribbons and US cut outs. No military devices. Hard metal rank is worn.

4. Cadets over 18 who do not meet weight standards can wear this uniform with the cadet nametag.


Thanks to
Al Pabon, Captain, CAP
MN Wing PAO and Recruiting Officer

Where is the hard metal rank worn?  are there epaulets?  Where do Flight Officers get their metal rank? 

Mostly because I think I'll be switching over to this uniform now

I wonder what the future holds for those of us that can't wear this uniform.

Quote from: thefischNX01 on May 12, 2006, 08:28:39 PM
Where is the hard metal rank worn?  are there epaulets?  Where do Flight Officers get their metal rank? 

Mostly because I think I'll be switching over to this uniform now

Ranks is worn on the epaulets.

That's a good question for FO's. I would assume that Vanguard will need to churn out FO Metal Rank to meet this need.

Quote from: thefischNX01 on May 12, 2006, 08:28:39 PM
Where is the hard metal rank worn?  are there epaulets?  Where do Flight Officers get their metal rank? 

Mostly because I think I'll be switching over to this uniform now

I still have my metal TFO rank.  Wow...that was a few years ago!   ;D

Can't wait to see pictures!

The rank will be worn on the epaulet sleeves/shoulder marks, not the actual epaulet on the shirt or coat. Let's try to keep our terminology straight here.

Quote from: SarDragon on May 12, 2006, 09:50:59 PM
The rank will be worn on the epaulet sleeves/shoulder marks, not the actual epaulet on the shirt or coat. Let's try to keep our terminology straight here.

OK - well, it's "Grade", not "rank".   ;D

To get serious for a minute - I spend a fair amount of time up at Naval Station Great Lakes, and I have decided that despite the fact that I like this new uniform, I won't ever wear it on an active base.

Why?  No headgear.

The uniform itself is plenty military-looking to get salutes and respect, but then
it will also get stares as to why I don't have a hat on!?!?!?

There is also the issue of outerwear. What will people think when our members take off some bizarre bright green ski parka and underneath reveal an "Air Force Officer"?

Just not worth the "cool points" we'll lose.

I'd rather wear the golf shirt than this combo.

Wait...there are epaulets on a double-breasted coat?  I guess my next question is it a Navy-style double breasted coat, or a Coast Guard style double breasted coat?  the navy-style has buttons on both sides, whereas the coast guard is like the old Air Force Service dress

(http://www.mncap.org/pa/cadet_stuff/corporateuni%5B1%5D.jpg)

No idea the source for this Cadetstuff thread,
http://forums.cadetstuff.org/viewtopic.php?t=5522&highlight (http://forums.cadetstuff.org/viewtopic.php?t=5522&highlight)
but frankly I like the look.  Very RAF.

Actually, I kinda like it....distinctive, yet military.   :clap:


Now...where to get the coat?

Quote from: thefischNX01 on May 13, 2006, 04:21:31 AM
Actually, I kinda like it....distinctive, yet military.   :clap:


Now...where to get the coat?

Nearest commercial airport... Just ask nicely of any Midwest Express or Continental Pilot!

... I'm thinking that it will in the distant future be stocked at Vanguard, however, I think Tom at the Hock will probably have it a bit sooner than later.

Quote from: Eclipse on May 13, 2006, 02:40:36 AM

Quote from: SarDragon on May 12, 2006, 09:50:59 PM
The rank will be worn on the epaulet sleeves/shoulder marks, not the actual epaulet on the shirt or coat. Let's try to keep our terminology straight here.

OK - well, it's "Grade", not "rank".   ;D

I was merely echoing previous posts, and not causing or continuing any confusion. There is, however, a necessary distinction between epaulets and what's worn on them.

Quote from: Eclipse on May 13, 2006, 04:01:24 AM
(http://www.mncap.org/pa/cadet_stuff/corporateuni%5B1%5D.jpg)

No idea the source for this Cadetstuff thread,
http://forums.cadetstuff.org/viewtopic.php?t=5522&highlight (http://forums.cadetstuff.org/viewtopic.php?t=5522&highlight)
but frankly I like the look.  Very RAF.

I like the uniform too.

By the way Bob, you get Randy Gross and his son squared away.

You said they came by the meeting.

Later,

Jerry

Are the buttons the Hap Arnold set or what?  Can't wait to see the cost of the jacket at vanguard.  I bet they triple the shipping cost too!

Although I very much like this uniform, and IF it were to me (which --thankfully-- for everyone involved it isn't nor ever will be) CAP SM's (at least) would switch to a corporate uniform in order to be UNIFORM.  It seems pointless to call something(s) "uniforms" when virtually anytime CAP gathers, even in the smallest groups, there is a vast assortment of so-called "uniforms." To my mind the only thing CAP's uniforms aren't, ultimately, is uniform. As most of you know militaries use uniforms for reasons of operational efficiency. If we are not uniform, we are not military regardless of the style of the clothing. They may be military, but without actual uniformity, the organization is not.

My vote is for the SMs to go to a corporate uniform that everyone can wear (let the cadets wear the USAF "blue suit" as it seemingly supports its mission) as long as USAF will not allow all SMs (and even over 18 cadets) to wear their "suit" lest they meet arbitrary H/W standards. Those SMs who absolutely, positively want/need to wear the USAF uniforms, can join the USAF/ANG.

That having been said, my one real concern (echoing Mikeylikey) has to do with Vanguard and their inevitable mark-up and absurd shipping costs. It may not be worth buying when that's figured in. To my mind, the shift from the Bookstore/CAPMart to Vanguard was an enormous change for the worse. I recently purchased two (2) of the new blue two-line nametags for the corporate uniform. Each was $3.00 as I recall BUT the shipping was a ludicrous $7.00 more.

CAP needs uniformity, but it also needs a uniform supplier that realizes that our members don't print the money.

NHQ needs to "fix" Vanguard or replace it and ASAP.

What I want to know is why are all these uniform changes just suddenly appearing, completely prepared to go, but the first time the membership gets to see them is when its up for vote by the NB or NEC?

What's wrong with demoing the uniform ideas ahead of time with the membership?  Seeking feedback?  Maybe even a short wear-test period to see if that's what we really want to do?

It seems like somebody up at NHQ is simply drafting a plan together, and when the small group of them decide they've got something good, they hide it from the membership until the NB or NEC approves it.  Bam - we're stuck with it.  No chance to give input on what we'll be wearing for the next 10 years, no opportunity to suggest changes, modifications, or accomodations for all of us.  It doesn't seem right at all.

Why should our view and comment period, and the unveiling of the concept to the membership, be after it's already approved as-is?  Do our opinions not matter one bit?

I would not doubt that someone at national has $$ in vanguard.  I would not also put it past some of them to have $$ in the manufacturer that will be providing this new coat.  Lets face it, they don't want to show the new uniforms, because the members at large may kill the design.  They need to begin being more open about this and a few more things, because it only makes them look like idiots in the end.

I agree that some increased "transparency" and membership participation would be helpful and useful when considering new uniforms. I would recommend "stealing" a page from the USAF's own playbook and create a uniform review/recommendation board to deal with corporate uniform issues, plans, designs, etc.

That having been said, IMHO the real challenge will be obtaining any sort of consensus regarding designs. Although even a "board" makes a recommendation, it still may be unpopular with the broader membership.

The good thing about shifting --at least the SMs-- to all-corporate uniforms is that a uniform board would actually be able to address all of the uniforms our members wear. As it is, we have no say about the USAF/CAP uniforms.

Furthermore, it appears that we are not even at the mercy of the USAF Uniform Board regarding the USAF/CAP combinations but rather the whiles, opinions, and perhaps petty tyranies of one general officer, the AETC Commander. Taking back CAP's uniforms into CAP "hands" would eliminate such tyranny or arbitrariness in the hands of one individual -- an individual completely EXTERNAL to CAP.

Let's be proud to be CAP, stop trying to "play Air Force," and stop a lone general officer or two from playing enlightened (at best) despot with/to us.

Does anyone know where I can pick up the Black Windbreaker for the Corp. Uniform?

It looks like the one the US Navy uses, but then again I have not seen that in awhile.

Any information would be great.

Quote from: SFox167 on July 13, 2006, 10:24:05 PM
Does anyone know where I can pick up the Black Windbreaker for the Corp. Uniform?

It looks like the one the US Navy uses, but then again I have not seen that in awhile.

Any information would be great.

Should be available at an Army MCSS near you, unless you want to wait til Vanguard gets 'em in stock.

Quote from: AlphaSigOU on July 14, 2006, 12:13:15 AM
Should be available at an Army MCSS near you, unless you want to wait til Vanguard gets 'em in stock.

Yeah... the officers version of the Army black windbreaker has the knit collar.  Try Ebay.

Quote from: MIKE on July 14, 2006, 12:56:43 AM

Quote from: AlphaSigOU on July 14, 2006, 12:13:15 AM
Should be available at an Army MCSS near you, unless you want to wait til Vanguard gets 'em in stock.

Yeah... the officers version of the Army black windbreaker has the knit collar.  Try Ebay.

So, we go to a Navy-style uniform with an Army Jacket?  Makes sense...

Quote from: mikeylikey on May 18, 2006, 01:02:59 PM
Are the buttons the Hap Arnold set or what?  Can't wait to see the cost of the jacket at vanguard.  I bet they triple the shipping cost too!

The buttons are supposedly highly polished CAP buttons. I'm not sure if they're resurrecting the old CAP crest buttons or even going further back in time to use the old prop and triangle buttons. The demo jacket used Hap Arnold AF buttons since the CAP ones weren't ready.

$160.00 at Vanguard, cash, check or plastic. Not to mention the shipping charge.

Someone mentioned the lack of uniformity wherever CAP meets?  one should look at the "real" military at the present time.  Our encampment was at Ft. Benning, Georgia.  "Real" military platoons marched by with some soldiers in woodland camo, some in desert tan camo, some were in digital camo and a few were in the urban? blue camo.  Talk about a lack of uniformity.  I know they are switching uniforms, but it looked, sort of, you know, ununiform.  (probably not even a word)  Anyhow, in this time of short term deployment and mixing units from different reserve/national guard/active duty units, it leads to some strange bedfellows to say the least.  I think we are as uniform as the rest, at least at this point in time.  I have no idea as to what the future will bring for CAP or the military.  I do know that the lines between services are closing.  The Air Force has been asked to become more involved in Army Medevac, to the point of supplying Air Force personnel to act as medics on Air Force helicopters assigned to retrieve the wounded from the battlefield.  This may not seem like much, but it does show that the forces are working together more and perhaps may someday fall under one command..(Starfleet Command???)  Stranger and stranger we move forward.

Are we allowed to wear other Air Force uniform components such as pullover or cardigan sweaters with this new corporate uniform - or the AF lightweight jacket?  If so, would we wear the Air Force style insignia of grade?

Quote from: Camas on July 14, 2006, 03:34:58 PM
Are we allowed to wear other Air Force uniform components such as pullover or cardigan sweaters with this new corporate uniform - or the AF lightweight jacket?  If so, would we wear the Air Force style insignia of grade?

No & no.

Quote from: Camas on July 14, 2006, 03:34:58 PM
Are we allowed to wear other Air Force uniform components such as pullover or cardigan sweaters with this new corporate uniform - or the AF lightweight jacket?  If so, would we wear the Air Force style insignia of grade?

Lest you wish to have some highly indignant RealAirForce® brass come after us with chains and knives...  ;D

Quote from: Camas on July 14, 2006, 03:34:58 PM
Are we allowed to wear other Air Force uniform components such as pullover or cardigan sweaters with this new corporate uniform - or the AF lightweight jacket?  If so, would we wear the Air Force style insignia of grade?

We not is allowed be having the mixing of USAF uniforms and corporate uniforms (being classified as civilian clothes by USAF).

Unlike the other CAP distinctive uniforms... I haven't seen anything that says you can wear any kind of civilian outerwear with these uniforms... Seems to me that it's the black windbreaker and maybe the black A-2 (If I read it right.) or nothing.

MIKE's correct. Only outerwear authorized for the TPU so far is the black windbreaker and the black A-2. I don't think any other silly-vilian outerwear is authorized.

Quote from: AlphaSigOU on July 15, 2006, 02:42:27 AM
MIKE's correct. Only outerwear authorized for the TPU so far is the black windbreaker and the black A-2. I don't think any other silly-vilian outerwear is authorized.

I guess a black raincoat or All-weather coat is the next logical step since you can't really wear the windbreaker or A-2 over that service coat.  Not that people won't do it anyway.

silly-vilian  :D   

Black A-2 on blue or gray CAP distinctives... no problem.
Plain brown A-2 on gray CAP distinctives... no problem.
Brown A-2 with doohickeys on AF-style... prepare to incur the wrath of the USAF Aircrew Mafia!  ;D

Has there been any Air Force reaction to this uniform?? It is so close to several mulitary uniforms, including USAF, it's hard to imagine there has been no response.

Quote from: ZigZag911 on July 15, 2006, 05:01:21 PM
Has there been any Air Force reaction to this uniform?? It is so close to several mulitary uniforms, including USAF, it's hard to imagine there has been no response.

The commander of CAP-USAF, Col Hodgkins had no problem with it when it was unveiled at the NEC meeting.  However, once you see the new TPU in widespread use there's probably going to be more than a few heads-a-turnin' and a few colonels and generals giving birth to kittens sideways.

While it mimics the AF-style uniform, the uniform appears distinctive enough that it shouldn't pose a major problem for the RealAirForce. Ya never know, but they might not appreciate the end run Gen. Pineda did to the AF brass.

There may be some minor changes to uniform items sometime down the road, and perhaps if more senior members wear this uniform combination properly, the AF brass may relent a leetle and give us back pin-on grade insignia and distinctive blue epaulets like the olden days... but don't hold your breath.

Quote from: ZigZag911 on May 05, 2006, 04:33:48 PM

I have felt the same way for several years, and many seniors seem to agree....let's simplify the senior uniforms, cut down on confusion, cost, and needless conflict with our parent service.

I'm not sure about the "cut down on cost" part.  Since I've joined I wear the blues whenever the occasion warrants, and in that time the uniform hasn't changed.  But the Corporate uniform has changed half a dozen times.  I can't afford to go out and buy a new shirt and pants, not to mention all the CAP distinctive hardware from Vanguard, every few months.

Chris

Wel, USAF is getting ready to change uniform designs again, for about the 3rd time in the past 10 to 15 years.....eventually that filters down to us, and becomes mandatory for seniors LONG before the cadets....anyway the point is to have a single senior uniform and keep it that way long term.

Of more concern to me is the apparent mixing of civilian items (shirt, slacks) with military items (hats, belts) in the new corporate uniform....WIWAC back in the dark ages we had it drummed into us that this was simply not done!

Quote from: ZigZag911 on July 15, 2006, 05:01:21 PM
Has there been any Air Force reaction to this uniform?? It is so close to several mulitary uniforms, including USAF, it's hard to imagine there has been no response.

I'm not sure but I thought the AirForce approved of this uniform already and that is why it is allowed in CAP.

Quote from: williamcabot link=topic=651.msg10334#msg10334
I'm not sure but I thought the AirForce approved of this uniform already and that is why it is allowed in CAP.

"Air Force"...two words...

Quote from: williamcabot on August 16, 2006, 11:31:38 PM

Quote from: ZigZag911 on July 15, 2006, 05:01:21 PM
Has there been any Air Force reaction to this uniform?? It is so close to several mulitary uniforms, including USAF, it's hard to imagine there has been no response.

I'm not sure but I thought the AirForce approved of this uniform already and that is why it is allowed in CAP.

I believe the reaction of the CAP-USAF commander was essentially "no comment"....hardly a ringing endorsement!

well I guess if the Air Force didn't like the new uniform they would have said something to stop it being issued, hopefully it will stay in because I like this new uniform.

I've heard that there has been some negative comments about the TPU in the Pentagon and that one general officer has already expressed his dislike for the corporate service uniform.

Quote from: williamcabot on August 17, 2006, 08:36:50 PM
well I guess if the Air Force didn't like the new uniform they would have said something to stop it being issued, hopefully it will stay in because I like this new uniform.

Not necessarily.  The AF doesn't control corporate uniforms.  However, as stated:

Quote from: Major_Chuck on September 01, 2006, 12:03:41 AM
I've heard that there has been some negative comments about the TPU in the Pentagon and that one general officer has already expressed his dislike for the corporate service uniform.

I've heard the same scuttlebutt.  Rumor has it a nice LtGen saw it and almost blew his lid.  Because CAP Corporate Uniforms CANNOT be mixed with USAF uniform items without prior approval... one because well, it's the AF and that's just how it is and two, because it's common courtesy...

Quote from: Matt on September 01, 2006, 01:48:36 AM

Quote from: williamcabot on August 17, 2006, 08:36:50 PM
well I guess if the Air Force didn't like the new uniform they would have said something to stop it being issued, hopefully it will stay in because I like this new uniform.

Not necessarily.  The AF doesn't control corporate uniforms.  However, as stated:

Quote from: Major_Chuck on September 01, 2006, 12:03:41 AM
I've heard that there has been some negative comments about the TPU in the Pentagon and that one general officer has already expressed his dislike for the corporate service uniform.

I've heard the same scuttlebutt.  Rumor has it a nice LtGen saw it and almost blew his lid.  Because CAP Corporate Uniforms CANNOT be mixed with USAF uniform items without prior approval... one because well, it's the AF and that's just how it is and two, because it's common courtesy...

Doesn't surprise me at all.  As Maj Bowles stated: after a while, there will be enough of an outcry from angry Air Force Field Grade and General Officers that the CAP corpoate service dress uniform will be done away with.  Like he said, their heads will turn and they'll be giving birth to kittens sideways (I'm going to use that one in the future, by the way!) :)

I've been told that this new uniform is in violation of both the articles of the UCMJ and the codes of the USC.  And it's all because of the mixing of Air Force insignia and civilian articles of clothing.  If CAP decided to make the grey shoulder marks a part of the uniform instead of the blue Air Force shoulder marks, the uniform would be legal to wear.  They avoided the nametag problem by creating a distinctive blue one for the shirt.     

Like the Navy-style service dress coat with officer sleeve grade insignia instituted by Air Force Gen Merril McPeak, I don't think the TPU is going to last.  I think Maj Bowles' prediction will prove to be true.  One Lt Gen at the Pentagon may be all it takes to get rid of the TPU.       

We still could use a CAP distinctive uniform in a military style (i.e., with a service hacket of some description.

On another thread some months ago i suggested khaki, as a nod to CAP's historical roots in the Army Air Force, and to the summer uniform of the USAF in its early years.

I'm not sure how much the Navy still uses khaki, but I would imagine differences in insignia ought to overcome any problems or objections from them.

If the mixing of military insignia and civilian clothing is an issue to the military, why haven't they gone after security guards, police officers, ACA, or the plethora of non-military organizations and companies that use them? How about the soldier who works part time as a security guard? CAP does have a history of using military insignia on our uniforms - look at the NCO grades.

If you pull the "Well, they don't look like military uniforms", it won't cut it for the ACA and other similar orgaizations. I have yet to see anyone who would confuse the CAP service dress with a military uniform.

The only change I see coming down is the change from US cutouts to CAP. Which should have been done at the beginning.

Quote from: arajca on September 01, 2006, 04:37:36 AM
If the mixing of military insignia and civilian clothing is an issue to the military, why haven't they gone after security guards, police officers, ACA, or the plethora of non-military organizations and companies that use them? How about the soldier who works part time as a security guard? CAP does have a history of using military insignia on our uniforms - look at the NCO grades.

If you pull the "Well, they don't look like military uniforms", it won't cut it for the ACA and other similar orgaizations. I have yet to see anyone who would confuse the CAP service dress with a military uniform.

The only change I see coming down is the change from US cutouts to CAP. Which should have been done at the beginning.

I think there is a slight disconnect here. CAP has USAF uniforms, like the camo BDUs, and the service dress that you mentioned. These uniforms have to be, and are, approved by the Air Force. The problem here is the corporate, or CAP Distinctive uniforms. These are uniforms that are not based on the USAF uniforms, like our service dress is. These uniforms do not have to be approved by the Air Force.

Forgive me if I misunderstand what you said, but there is no issue with military insignia on the service dress. That is a military uniform that we are authorized by the Air Force to wear.

Smitty - you quoted and made reference to the wrong major, I believe it's Major_Chuck you were thinking of.

As for prior references to buying new uniforms, from what I can see, they haven't gotten rid of any existing uniforms (yet), so the polo shirt with grey slacks, and the aviator shirt with grey slacks are still valid uniforms. I certainly hope so, because I'm not allowed to wear the new combination(s).

I am wondering if there's a problem with anyone else besides me who can't afford to keep changing uniforms.  I don't have the money to do this.  Most of my squadron members get part of their uniform items from the DRMO.

If we choose to get rid of the AF-style blues uniform (which I heard rumored for a while now-thus the purpose for the change) what are we supposed to do?  I understand that only the shirt will change for the most part (which I already have) but are we going to wear our military decorations on it in the future as well?

I pay so much money on dues and attending CAP activities they should be issuing us Senior Members uniform vouchers like the cadets!

There are many questions that need answered on this issue and not with the short-notice we get from our superiors.  This uniform has already changed so many times in the last 7 months, I'm scared to get one!  Nameplates, headwear, grooming standards, Jackets, etc.  when will it end?

Got a bunch of stuff here, let me do my best to break it down for you.

Quote from: caphornbuckle on September 01, 2006, 06:41:52 AM
I am wondering if there's a problem with anyone else besides me who can't afford to keep changing uniforms.  I don't have the money to do this.  Most of my squadron members get part of their uniform items from the DRMO.

The answer for this is to not get anything new for the moment. In all of these recent changes, not a single uniform combination has been retired, IIRC. They just keep making new ones. That means that the old ones, like the white aviator shirt, are still regulation, and you can still wear them.

Part way through when I was a cadet, they came out with the new style service coat, but I did not go out and get one. The cadets were, and still are, being allowed to wear the old style, so I didn't cough up the money for a new uniform. In fact, I only got the new style service coat right before I went senior member, because at that point I needed a new coat anyways, and as I senior member, I could no longer wear the old style.

Same solution here. If money is a problem, don't get the new stuff until they tell you that you can't wear the old stuff.

Quote from: caphornbuckle on September 01, 2006, 06:41:52 AM
If we choose to get rid of the AF-style blues uniform (which I heard rumored for a while now-thus the purpose for the change) what are we supposed to do?  I understand that only the shirt will change for the most part (which I already have) but are we going to wear our military decorations on it in the future as well?

I believe a lot of those decorations (at least the ribbons), you can wear on the white aviator shirt. As for retiring the AF-style blues uniform, I doubt they will do that. They may modify what we wear, but I doubt they will get rid of it flat out.

Quote from: caphornbuckle on September 01, 2006, 06:41:52 AM
I pay so much money on dues and attending CAP activities they should be issuing us Senior Members uniform vouchers like the cadets!

12 year old kids don't usually have jobs. Senior members usually do. We want to provide an environment where cadets of all incomes and backgrounds can have access to youth leadership, AE, and drug demand reduction, and the rest of the cadet program. It's not the same deal with senior members.

In addition, there are already more senior members than cadets in CAP (IIRC), and often not enough money for the uniform vouchers for the brand new cadets. If they run out of money for the cadets, how much do you think it will cost for senior members?

I hope I have helped a little.

Quote from: Cobra1597 on September 01, 2006, 05:00:50 AM

Quote from: arajca on September 01, 2006, 04:37:36 AM
If the mixing of military insignia and civilian clothing is an issue to the military, why haven't they gone after security guards, police officers, ACA, or the plethora of non-military organizations and companies that use them? How about the soldier who works part time as a security guard? CAP does have a history of using military insignia on our uniforms - look at the NCO grades.

If you pull the "Well, they don't look like military uniforms", it won't cut it for the ACA and other similar orgaizations. I have yet to see anyone who would confuse the CAP service dress with a military uniform.

The only change I see coming down is the change from US cutouts to CAP. Which should have been done at the beginning.

I think there is a slight disconnect here. CAP has USAF uniforms, like the camo BDUs, and the service dress that you mentioned. These uniforms have to be, and are, approved by the Air Force. The problem here is the corporate, or CAP Distinctive uniforms. These are uniforms that are not based on the USAF uniforms, like our service dress is. These uniforms do not have to be approved by the Air Force.

I mentioned the CAP service dress, which is a CAP distintive uniform, not the AF service dress. Since it is not a military uniform, why would someone get more trouble than someone who is working as a part time securtiy sergeant or lt? Or what about the National Guardsman who is also a police sergeant? There are many police agencies that use miltary grade insignia.

At the NB, I saw many members wearing the corporate blues. Even looking from the opposite end of the hall, the white shirt stands out significantly as different from the AF blue shirt.

If someone's AF blue shirt is so faded that it appears white, the shirt is obviously not in good repair and shoud be replaced.

OK, I got confused, because there is no CAP Distinctive called "Service Dress". There is an AF uniform called Service Dress, and a distinctive Corporate Service Coat for the Corporate Uniform. I am guessing now that you are talking about the latter.

Quote from: SarDragon on September 01, 2006, 05:35:01 AMSmitty - you quoted and made reference to the wrong major, I believe it's Major_Chuck you were thinking of.

Okay sir, thanks for clearing that up.  Whoever said it, it's great and I'm using it!  Giving birth to kittens sideways... now that's a creative attention-getter! :clap:

Quote from: SarDragon on September 01, 2006, 05:35:01 AMAs for prior references to buying new uniforms, from what I can see, they haven't gotten rid of any existing uniforms (yet), so the polo shirt with grey slacks, and the aviator shirt with grey slacks are still valid uniforms. I certainly hope so, because I'm not allowed to wear the new combination(s).

Thank goodness... I'm one of those people who believes that there's nothing wrong with the existing corporate uniforms and that they exist so the new "corporate uniform with service dress coat" does not have to.  When you think about it, the grey and white/grey and white with blazer/polo shirt uniform combinations fulfill the purpose of distinctive, alternative uniforms for members who cannot wear AF uniforms for whatever reason. 

Why spend more $$$ on a uniform that is not needed?  Especially when one uniform already exists for the same purpose, and fulfills that purpose.  My brain is unable to understand this kind of logic. 

Well, it seems as though someone's been listening.   I totally agree with the CAP "cutouts" versus the U.S. insignia, but I rather liked the grade insignia on the flight cap.   Ah well, I've always been more partial to the service cap anyway. *grin*  It still makes us look like CAPAirlines.     I recieved the below in an email from the Wing CC this evening.



"MEMORANDUM FOR ALL UNIT COMMANDERS
FROM: CAP/CC
SUBJECT: Civil Air Patrol Corporate Service Coat
1. The recent National Board meeting in Reno was a tremendous success. I was quite pleased to see so many members wearing the new Corporate uniform. This uniform allows our members to present a professional image and to be easily identified as members of Civil Air Patrol. Many members had suggestions on how to improve this uniform and after careful consideration I have decided to implement several of these changes. Effective immediately, the U.S. insignia placed on the lapels of the Corporate Service coat will be replaced by the highly polished C.A.P. device. This device will also be added to the epaulet of the black windbreaker, worn centered between the grade
insignia and the end of the epaulet. Additionally, the flight cap will no longer be worn with the grade insignia on the right side of the cap and the flight cap device will return to its original placement centered on left side of the cap 1 ½ inches from the front edge. The National Executive Committee will meet in November to finalize these and any other changes deemed necessary."

Quote from: Psicorp on September 06, 2006, 01:54:55 AM
Well, it seems as though someone's been listening.   I totally agree with the CAP "cutouts" versus the U.S. insignia, but I rather liked the grade insignia on the flight cap.   Ah well, I've always been more partial to the service cap anyway. *grin*  It still makes us look like CAPAirlines.     I received the below in an email from the Wing CC this evening.



"MEMORANDUM FOR ALL UNIT COMMANDERS
FROM: CAP/CC
SUBJECT: Civil Air Patrol Corporate Service Coat
1. The recent National Board meeting in Reno was a tremendous success. I was quite pleased to see so many members wearing the new Corporate uniform. This uniform allows our members to present a professional image and to be easily identified as members of Civil Air Patrol. Many members had suggestions on how to improve this uniform and after careful consideration I have decided to implement several of these changes. Effective immediately, the U.S. insignia placed on the lapels of the Corporate Service coat will be replaced by the highly polished C.A.P. device. This device will also be added to the epaulet of the black windbreaker, worn centered between the grade
insignia and the end of the epaulet. Additionally, the flight cap will no longer be worn with the grade insignia on the right side of the cap and the flight cap device will return to its original placement centered on left side of the cap 1 ½ inches from the front edge. The National Executive Committee will meet in November to finalize these and any other changes deemed necessary."

WHAT!  E-NUFF!!  Who made these suggestions?  What is the problem with leaving well enough alone.  The Air Force had no problem with the new TPU and the metal rank, and US Insignia.  This is one more step to becoming completely CORPORATE.  Look in the mirror and practice saying "I am a Corporate TOOL, I was once part of the Air Force Auxiliary, now I perform aerial photography missions for the highest bidder, and will shake hands with any political person as long as they give the CORPORATION money". 
  Seriously though......who cares about uniforms when we just learned that we have a "million dollar windfall" for missions and mission training.  Lets reorganize NHQ, cut X number of programs and jobs and then see we actually don't use all of the money we were given.  Call your Wing Commanders and DEMAND to be put in an Aircraft!  Do it now, while we have the money available, but do it quick, as Tony has only given us 2 weeks to use it all up! 

Wow.....CAP Crap can make a person a little upset sometimes!

Have any additions/subtractions/stupid changes been made to the corporate uniform since Sept?
  I also agree with Mikeylikey that the higher ups are becoming too concerned with "CORPORATE" and not concerned enough with USAF-Aux. and activities that matter.
Now Im not trying to play AF and in a way I am: one previous post said "stick with a corporate uniform, if you want to wear blues, join the ANG".  Well, I was AFROTC in college and was deemed "noncommisionable"after several years and later tried to join the guard and was rejected (a result of childhood asthma)
I will  grant I joined CAP as a cadet so ROTC hadnt even happened.  HOWEVER, I take PRIDE in wearing blues. (with CAP gray epulets)
For the record, Ive never tried to pass myself off as anything Im not.

Quote from: Cobra1597 on September 01, 2006, 07:02:30 AM
12 year old kids don't usually have jobs. Senior members usually do. We want to provide an environment where cadets of all incomes and backgrounds can have access to youth leadership, AE, and drug demand reduction, and the rest of the cadet program. It's not the same deal with senior members.

In addition, there are already more senior members than cadets in CAP (IIRC), and often not enough money for the uniform vouchers for the brand new cadets. If they run out of money for the cadets, how much do you think it will cost for senior members?

Actually there has never been more adults than cadets. Quite the opposite actually. Cadets outnumebr adult ssignificantly. Then if you go to the active participation numbers versus the BS number on the MML, then you're talking about a 2-3 to 1 advantage of cadets to seniors, which is how it always has been if you're interested.

I actually think it'd be great to provide a wider range of adults the opportunity to contribute to homeland defense, SaR, disaster relief... oh & those cadets don't get crap but for the adults that deliver it. It costs me a couple grand a year to be in CAP, sometimes a lot more. YMMV. That's not exactly being open to the quality people form diverse socioeconomic backgrounds. Now how you gonna pay for uniform vouchers & deployed per diem?.. well, I'd start w/ you don't get teh voucher till you been in a couple years then it's a $25 certificate every 3-5 years, and the per diem can be moderate, enough to remotely approach what the average person sacrifices to be there. That does nothing to explain how you pay for it, but it's where we'd liek to be. I'd even go for a couple bucks out of yearly dues to an acct to help finance such endeavors, but you still need more & there ain't enough to go around.

QuoteAfter all the "just a pilot" or "just the testing officer because my kid's a cadet" kind of member really doesn't need it. (And regardless of their rank, they really acting as officers)

Dnall, I am ashamed of you for making such a mistake!

2005 annual report:
Seniors: 33,618
Cadets: 23,270 

Only 4 wings have more cadets than seniors: DC, CT, NM, PR.  Even your own Wing has about 300 more seniors than cadets. 

That's incredibly suprising to me, and not the historical situation I'm used to. I can tell you for my wing, there's no chance in remotest parts of frozen hell that there's actually more adults active in the program than cadets.

Way to call me though, good work!

As far as I know it has been that way for a long time. 

Quote from: DNall on January 05, 2007, 05:14:55 AM
That's incredibly suprising to me, and not the historical situation I'm used to. I can tell you for my wing, there's no chance in remotest parts of frozen hell that there's actually more adults active in the program than cadets.

Way to call me though, good work!

The key word is "active"

Since CAP doesn't have a mechanism for seperating "coming to meetings" members from "just paying dues" members, the national stats don't have a lot of validity.

I'd agree that there are a heck of a lot more active cadets.  Primarily because "inactive" cadets don't have money to pay dues for no good reason....

 I think we would all be VERY surprised at the actual (real) numbers of active members if there was a way to realistically track it. We are not anywhere close to the numbers that National puts out.

Okay now we've drifted way far off "New Corp Uniform"... Anyway, would you guys agree on a recommendation to NHQ to add input of mtg attendance to eServices (quick check boxes & submit 30sec operation)? A standard for "active vs inactive" can be set after the fact & we can then determine who fits in what category... from that we can then tell legit unit sizes & judge their performance on what they're doing w/ 4 people rather than the 50 on the books, take a fresh look at where we're putting planes, trains radios, & automobiles. Etc, etc... just a mgmt tool. What do yall think?

Not in this thread please... Take it to another one.