One of our cadets is 18 and does not meet height and weight standards. Some of our senior members believe he should be wearing the corporate uniform because of this, but our interim commander says that it's up to the discretion of our squadron commander, which is him for now. Is this true? Is the squadron commander allowed to determine whether or not the cadet should or should not wear the uniform the regs have for when you do not meet height and weight standards? I wanted to ask someone outside of our squadron, but I don't think I'm allowed to email wing or national. Thank you!!!
Quote from: alanacranford on March 08, 2017, 05:38:42 PM
but our interim commander says that it's up to the discretion of our squadron commander, which is him for now. Is this true?
It's true, your interim commander is using his "discretion" to avoid a hard conversation.
CAPM 39-1, Page 119 (122 in PDF: https://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/M391_E6F33EAAEC28A.pdf)
Quote1. Members who are aged 18 and older must meet CAP weight standards in order to wear the USAFstyle uniform.
also- CAPM 39-1 on page 6, 1.2.2 read with 1.2.3.2.
Quote from: CAPM 39-1
3.1. Personal Grooming Standards. This chapter outlines personal grooming while wearing the USAFstyle or Corporate-style uniforms. Commander's discretion may be used to determine if individual's personal grooming is within standards of this manual. Commanders do not have authority to waive grooming and appearance standards except as identified in this manual.
I'd say unless a weigh-in is conducted it actually is the up to commander's descretion even if their judgement seems poor.
Quote from: alanacranford on March 08, 2017, 05:38:42 PM...our interim commander says that it's up to the discretion of our squadron commander, which is him for now. Is this true?
No.
Quote from: alanacranford on March 08, 2017, 05:38:42 PM
Is the squadron commander allowed to determine whether or not the cadet should or should not wear the uniform the regs have for when you do not meet height and weight standards?
No.
Quote from: alanacranford on March 08, 2017, 05:38:42 PM
I wanted to ask someone outside of our squadron, but I don't think I'm allowed to email wing or national. Thank you!!!
You are always allowed to consult the CAP knowledgebase for questions like this, however any "reporting" would be at the next echelon
at best, and while your CC is violating the regulations, not frankly worth the hassle other then perhaps a discrete comment to the next higher
HQ and leave it to them.
Considering you have an "interim" CC, your unit likely has bigger fish to fry.
With that said, outside activities like encampments would be well within their rights and authority to make an issue of it, at which point
your CC is going to be embarrassed and lose any "discretion he thinks he may have in this regard.
Quote from: vorteks on March 08, 2017, 05:55:09 PM
Quote from: CAPM 39-1
3.1. Personal Grooming Standards. This chapter outlines personal grooming while wearing the USAFstyle or Corporate-style uniforms. Commander's discretion may be used to determine if individual's personal grooming is within standards of this manual. Commanders do not have authority to waive grooming and appearance standards except as identified in this manual.
I'd say unless a weigh-in is conducted it actually is the up to commander's descretion even if their judgement seems poor.
This isn't "grooming" this is weight, and the OP indicates the cadet does not comply. There is no "discretion" in this matter, other then "discretion" should be used in re-mediating the situation.
What if the Cadet is under 18, I have seen a few that to be honest there was no way it would be in height weight standards. Then I have to wonder about the PT requirements, I think we are getting too many "waivers ", but if an MD signs it, we have to accept it.
edit, to be clear I am not bashing cadets with weight issues, I wear grey and white my self, nuf sed.
Quote from: CAPDCCMOM on March 08, 2017, 06:21:32 PM
What if the Cadet is under 18, I have seen a few that to be honest there was no way it would be in height weight standards.
Under 18 there are no weight standards.
Quote from: Eclipse on March 08, 2017, 06:03:26 PM
Quote from: vorteks on March 08, 2017, 05:55:09 PM
Quote from: CAPM 39-1
3.1. Personal Grooming Standards. This chapter outlines personal grooming while wearing the USAFstyle or Corporate-style uniforms. Commander's discretion may be used to determine if individual's personal grooming is within standards of this manual. Commanders do not have authority to waive grooming and appearance standards except as identified in this manual.
I'd say unless a weigh-in is conducted it actually is the up to commander's descretion even if their judgement seems poor.
This isn't "grooming" this is weight, and the OP indicates the cadet does not comply. There is no "discretion" in this matter, other then "discretion" should be used in re-mediating the situation.
Well it falls under the GROOMING AND
APPEARANCE STANDARDS chapter, but OK I stand corrected. Without stepping on a scale all you have to go on is appearance and we all know how that flies when it comes to this subject.
Quote from: vorteks on March 08, 2017, 06:30:39 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on March 08, 2017, 06:03:26 PM
Quote from: vorteks on March 08, 2017, 05:55:09 PM
Quote from: CAPM 39-1
3.1. Personal Grooming Standards. This chapter outlines personal grooming while wearing the USAFstyle or Corporate-style uniforms. Commander's discretion may be used to determine if individual's personal grooming is within standards of this manual. Commanders do not have authority to waive grooming and appearance standards except as identified in this manual.
I'd say unless a weigh-in is conducted it actually is the up to commander's descretion even if their judgement seems poor.
This isn't "grooming" this is weight, and the OP indicates the cadet does not comply. There is no "discretion" in this matter, other then "discretion" should be used in re-mediating the situation.
Well it falls under the GROOMING AND APPEARANCE STANDARDS chapter, but OK I stand corrected. Without stepping on a scale all you have to go on is appearance and we all know how that flies when it comes to this subject.
But your own bolded section talks about grooming standards, not appearance, or weight specifically. I don't know this particular case, but I can tell you that it's pretty easy to tell when someone is pushing the limits. I could pull of wearing USAF style, but I know I've got another 25lbs to go, and ultimately you CAN tell when someone is pushing the line. Now, if I ever see a 5'6", 230lb SM with a 10% BF composition? Then we'll talk about appearances, and not just raw numbers.
You might also try to have a meeting, along with your Deputy Commander of Cadets, and politely point out the relevant sections of CAPM 39-1.. I would also likely ask where his discretion comes from.
I would also think twice before going to the Group 3/CC
Also, are you in charge over said Cadet? If so, you also have some authority in this situation, unless you have already tried to deal with it, then you are left with the above advice.
Quote from: alanacranford on March 08, 2017, 05:38:42 PM
One of our cadets is 18 and does not meet height and weight standards. Some of our senior members believe .....
Good grief. I predict this Cadet will not be in CAP much longer.