CAP Talk

My squadron just had a long time member (started as cadet) make LT Col. What is the percentage of Seniors who make LT Col.?

Are you talking about all LTCs, or just the folks who went all the way up through the ranks?

The percentage of the latter is probably decreasing, since it's harder to do now. As for a real percentage, it probably isn't easily determined.

In general sir. either from Cadet or from 2LT

Dunno the percentage, but lemme tell ya, its not as fun as you might think. I hit Lt Col at age 29, and "topped out early"...

It does seem to me (subjectively, no actual data) that there are far fewer field grades now in CAP than there were in the 1980s.

V/R
Spam

From my understanding there are no official numbers kept for those Senior Members reaching to the grade of Lt Col.  There is not even an official list of those members that have achieved Level V--Wilson Award as there is with the Gen Carl A. Spaatz Award. 

Published in 2014, NHQ released the percentages of SMs at each grade:
SM:  15%
2d Lt:  16%
1st Lt:  17%
Capt:  22%
Maj:  15%
Lt Col:  13%

My wing is relatively similar with Lt Col at 10%.

That might be a realistic overall percentage, but how many of those people got direct promotion on entry, based on military service? I know more of those than I do folks who worked their way up in CAP. We have 3 prior military LTCs in my unit.

Quote from: LSThiker on January 30, 2016, 04:49:41 AM
From my understanding there are no official numbers kept for those Senior Members reaching to the grade of Lt Col.  There is not even an official list of those members that have achieved Level V--Wilson Award as there is with the Gen Carl A. Spaatz Award. 

Published in 2014, NHQ released the percentages of SMs at each grade:
SM:  15%
2d Lt:  16%
1st Lt:  17%
Capt:  22%
Maj:  15%
Lt Col:  13%

My wing is relatively similar with Lt Col at 10%.

That's of the current membership......of all people who join CAP as a Senior Member the number is probably a lot lower.
And it does not factor in how many of them came in as Lt Cols (ex military types).

And will get lower still as V Level is now required.

Interesting...if I had access to the National CAPWATCH file I could figure it out for you.

From a recent MER CAPWATCH download:

3,290 members with member type of "SENIOR" and status of "ACTIVE"
446 of those have a rank of "Lt Col"

So, about 13.6%. Stands to reason it'd be similar in other Regions; there's nothing unique about MER in this regard (lots of awesome things about MER in general, of course).

Those are stats for current members. The percentage of total people who join CAP and go on to become Lt Col? I'd put that in the low single digits, if not < 1%. We lose a lot of folks through attrition.

Kudos to your squadron colleague who earned the award. It's a great accomplishment.

Quote from: SarDragon on January 30, 2016, 04:59:51 AM
That might be a realistic overall percentage, but how many of those people got direct promotion on entry, based on military service? I know more of those than I do folks who worked their way up in CAP. We have 3 prior military LTCs in my unit.

Quote from: lordmonar on January 30, 2016, 05:20:48 AM
That's of the current membership......of all people who join CAP as a Senior Member the number is probably a lot lower.
And it does not factor in how many of them came in as Lt Cols (ex military types).

And will get lower still as V Level is now required.

Thank you.  I am well aware of the difference between all personnel that have achieved Lt Col and those that were sitting at that grade in 2014 and that it does not indicate those immediately promoted to Lt Col.  Otherwise, my comment would have contradicted itself.  Nevertheless, those figures, while not representing all personnel over the last 74 years, do give a general indication that that achievement is relatively low.  In addition, that CAP is not walking around with the majority of SMs at the grade of Lt Col. 

I agree that total number of personnel that have achieved Lt Col is probably <1% similar to that of the Spaatz.  In addition, those personnel that were once cadets and became SMs to achieve Lt Col is extremely low.  After all, I would be curious what percentage of SMs were once cadets in general, Phase 3 cadets, and Phase 4 cadets.  I am sure that exact figure does not exist, but would be willing to bet it is <0.5%.  Of course, that percentage will only become lower in the future.

Just as an aside, former CAP/CC Brig Gen Anderson lives just down the road from us and comes to our Tuesday nights from time to time to present cadet awards and so forth. He likes to point out that he started as a cadet and rose to CAP/CC...as did Maj Gen Vasquez, I think???

^ Yessir. Maj Gen Vazquez is also a former cadet.

HWSNBN actually visited our unit, long before I joined. Spam wants the squadron patch and t-shirt we gave him back. He's even considering a special forces takedown.

Also, I see your former NatCC and raise you an astronaut. Eric Boe was a GAWG cadet in the 80s, rival units. We spent one joint meeting beating the you know what out of each other with pugil sticks. He's supposed to be semi-active out in Colorado or something, waiting for another chance to go up.

I understand about professional appointments due to degrees can toss numbers off balance.  This is my 3rd time in CAP, 3rd time as 2LT. My Commander at the time(3rd time) gave me 2LT as soon as I finished Level One. We was my commander the first time through. I was close to Captain the first time, (when I left to raise my family and work issues) never got higher then 2LT second time, but my current Commander is making me wait until time in grade for 1LT. I don't think I should have had to wait. Even through regs say he can promote me without going higher then him but Group will approve Captain. Oh well I've play this game before. I have completed everything for 1LT and working on requirements for Captain, and TIME IN GRADE....

Quote from: LSThiker on January 30, 2016, 08:32:58 PM

Quote from: SarDragon on January 30, 2016, 04:59:51 AM
That might be a realistic overall percentage, but how many of those people got direct promotion on entry, based on military service? I know more of those than I do folks who worked their way up in CAP. We have 3 prior military LTCs in my unit.

Quote from: lordmonar on January 30, 2016, 05:20:48 AM
That's of the current membership......of all people who join CAP as a Senior Member the number is probably a lot lower.
And it does not factor in how many of them came in as Lt Cols (ex military types).

And will get lower still as V Level is now required.

Thank you.  I am well aware of the difference between all personnel that have achieved Lt Col and those that were sitting at that grade in 2014 and that it does not indicate those immediately promoted to Lt Col.  Otherwise, my comment would have contradicted itself.  Nevertheless, those figures, while not representing all personnel over the last 74 years, do give a general indication that that achievement is relatively low.  In addition, that CAP is not walking around with the majority of SMs at the grade of Lt Col. 

I agree that total number of personnel that have achieved Lt Col is probably <1% similar to that of the Spaatz.  In addition, those personnel that were once cadets and became SMs to achieve Lt Col is extremely low.  After all, I would be curious what percentage of SMs were once cadets in general, Phase 3 cadets, and Phase 4 cadets.  I am sure that exact figure does not exist, but would be willing to bet it is <0.5%.  Of course, that percentage will only become lower in the future.

I was a Mitchell cadet in the late 70's.  Did 20 years in the Army and retired as a Captain (OCS as E6) so I came into the senior side of things with that rank, however I am now up for Major via the regular system as I fulfilled the regular promotion requirements.  In my unit we have a retired Navy Commander who also has the Wilson award.  He went through the entire PD system without ever getting promoted by it at all.

I'll have to have some kind of party when I make Major - my date of rank as a Captain is 15 May 1986......

I started off as a cadink in Georgia Wing in December 1977, remained a cadet earning the Mitchell (2375) and Earhart (1257) (note: this is the current numbering sequence for the awards, which began in January 1979). Topped off at cadet major before other interests (my senior year of high school and my first - failed - year of college) took over and I let my cadet membership lapse at the end of 1984. Rejoined as a senior member briefly from October 1985 to October 1988 when another set of interests (competition model rocketry) took over. After a 17-year hiatus from CAP I rejoined in October 2005 and am still active.

Reinstated as a 1st Lt in January 1986 (from my previous stint as a senior member) then promoted at the regular intervals under the old-style promotion requirements in professional development and time-in-grade; Captain in July 2007, Major in July 2010 and Lt Col in July 2014. (Lt Col made permanent in July 2015.)

Gill Robb Wilson awards started with a new numbering system when it became the Level V PD award in July 1978. (Previously, it was the Level IV PD award.) I earned award number 2901 in December 2011. I think the award numbers are in the low 3000s these days.

This would be an interesting research project. Find the number of milestone cadets who went on to become milestone SMs, number of Spaatz cadets who became Wilsons, number of members who held every possible grade in the program....I see a lot of pie charts and graphs here...and statistics and spreadsheets....

Quote from: THRAWN on February 01, 2016, 02:45:24 PM
This would be an interesting research project. Find the number of milestone cadets who went on to become milestone SMs, number of Spaatz cadets who became Wilsons, number of members who held every possible grade in the program....I see a lot of pie charts and graphs here...and statistics and spreadsheets....

I am trying that for my wing.  Needless to say, it has been more difficult than I predicted.  In fact, that is why I know there is no official list of Wilson Awards.  Currently for my wing:

1 Spaatz and Wilson Award awardee from Wing
1 Spaatz cadet from my wing with a Wilson Award from another Wing
1 CoP cadet from my wing to earn the Wilson Award but she was at Region at the time
1 or 2 Spaatz cadets that earned Level IV from our wing
1 or 2 Spaatz cadets that earned Spaatz in another Wing to complete the Level IV in our Wing

Quote from: AlphaSigOU on February 01, 2016, 09:01:35 AM
Gill Robb Wilson awards started with a new numbering system when it became the Level V PD award in July 1978. (Previously, it was the Level IV PD award.) I earned award number 2901 in December 2011. I think the award numbers are in the low 3000s these days.

From talking with NHQ along with some others, the Wilson Award has been renumbered 3 times.  The first time was when it was a Level IV award (pre-1978).  When it became a Level V award, the numbering was restarted.  Then a year or so later it was restarted.  The current numbering system is that last renumbering.  This is why NHQ does not keep an official list of Wilson Awardees.

Would the legislative folks fall into the statistics? From what I understand, they are given Lt Col right away. Example: If you look up the governor of my state, he's a Lt Col

Quote from: SamuelRosinsky on February 01, 2016, 05:19:25 PM
Would the legislative folks fall into the statistics? From what I understand, they are given Lt Col right away. Example: If you look up the governor of my state, he's a Lt Col

State legislative are given Major, federal reps get Lt Col.  The Commander of the Legislative Squadron gets Lt Col.

I served as a cadet from 1984-1986 in both NY and FL Wings. In that time I made it up to c/TSgt before I let my membership lapse my junior year due to my extensive involvement in NJROTC at my high school.

I came back into the program in 1990 as a 19 y.o. senior member and worked my through the Flight Officer grades before being appointed as a squadron commander and promoted to Captain in 1992 at age 21. I got a duty performance promotion to Lieutenant Colonel in 2000 and earned the Wilson Award (2169) in 2002.

While I was never a cadet, I did progress through the Senior Member ranks as fast as possible -

Joined at 23 (1981) and made 2d Lt ...
Promoted to 1st Lt one year later (1982) ...
Had Captain eighteen months after that (1984) ...
Major three years later (1987) ...
And in 1991 I got the silver oak leaves.

I left CAP in 1997 and didn't come back until 2009.  My Squadron CC got the Lt Col grade reinstated, and I've been there ever since.

And there I remain.  Forever.

Jack

I would love to read the results of this if it is ever completed.

Eaker (2005)
Capt (2005 - mission related skill)
Maj (2008 - duty perf)
Lt Col (2015 - duty perf)
Have Level IV. Just need NSC for Level V.

Cadet 1982 - 1986
Mitchell (Feb 1984)
Earhart (Nov 1984)
Equivalent of Eaker (Spring 1986) (finished phase IV)

Rejoined as senior March 2002
1st Lt (Oct 2002 special appointment - Earhart)
Capt (Dec 2004 - duty performance)
Maj (Dec 2007 - duty performance)
Lt Col (Dec 2011 - duty performance)
Level V (2014)

So I've held every grade except C/Col, 2nd Lt , Col or flag rank. (including C/WO)

Quote from: Phil Hirons, Jr. on February 01, 2016, 08:16:34 PM
Cadet 1982 - 1986
Mitchell (Feb 1984)
Earhart (Nov 1984)
Equivalent of Eaker (Spring 1986) (finished phase IV)

Rejoined as senior March 2002
1st Lt (Oct 2002 special appointment - Earhart)
Capt (Dec 2004 - duty performance)
Maj (Dec 2007 - duty performance)
Lt Col (Dec 2011 - duty performance)
Level V (2014)

So I've held every grade except C/Col, 2nd Lt , Col or flag rank. (including C/WO)

Or Flight Officer...

Correction...

2007 - SM
2007 - Capt (professional)
2010 - Maj (duty performance)
2010 - Wilson #2807
2014 - Lt Col (duty performance)

Correction to my promotion history:

April 1981 - Mitchell (2375)
May 1982 - Earhart (1257)
October 1985 - TFO
Feb 1986 - 1st Lt (former cadet - Earhart)
Oct 2005 - SMWOG
Jan 2006 - 1st Lt (grade reinstatement - Earhart)
Jul 2007 - Captain (duty performance)
Jul 2010 - Major (duty performance)
Dec 2011 - Gill Robb Wilson (2901)
Jul 2014 - Lt Col (duty performance - made permanent Jul 2015)

Quote from: ColonelJack on February 01, 2016, 07:10:49 PM
While I was never a cadet, I did progress through the Senior Member ranks as fast as possible -

Joined at 23 (1981) and made 2d Lt ...
Promoted to 1st Lt one year later (1982) ...
Had Captain eighteen months after that (1984) ...
Major three years later (1987) ...
And in 1991 I got the silver oak leaves.

I left CAP in 1997 and didn't come back until 2009.  My Squadron CC got the Lt Col grade reinstated, and I've been there ever since.

And there I remain.  Forever.

Jack

I too shall amend my earlier CV to add ...

Wilson (#1366) - 1991

Jack

I received my Wilson in 2012 - #2931.

According to CAPWATCH, VAWG has 97 active Lt Cols, of which 58 have Level 4 and 35 have Level 5. There's overlap: all those who have Level 5 have Level 4, so those figures aren't additive. The query gets complicated when you try to figure out how many of those Level 4s occurred when it was the prerequisite for Lt Col. Maybe JeffDG has the SQL statement for that. Also, CAPWATCH doesn't (that I can see) track the type of promotion.

I personally know at least one Lt Col who was promoted based on military grade and subsequently completed PD through Level 5, so there's some overlap between duty performance Lt Cols and others.

There are 755 total active senior members (seniors and patrons) in Virginia, so 12.8% are Lt Cols.

In my former squadron we had a retired Navy Commander (helicopter flight instructor, had flown most of the Navy's rotary-wing aircraft).

A nice fellow, I got on with him quite well.

He got Lt Col straight out of the box.  I don't think I have ever seen that before in all my prior years in CAP.

A real go-getter, wanted to do a lot for the unit.

He came to a few meetings after that...never saw him again; I asked the CC once what happened to him, answer was "I don't know.  Maybe I should call him."

Quote from: CyBorg on February 02, 2016, 05:04:13 PM
In my former squadron we had a retired Navy Commander (helicopter flight instructor, had flown most of the Navy's rotary-wing aircraft).

A nice fellow, I got on with him quite well.

He got Lt Col straight out of the box.  I don't think I have ever seen that before in all my prior years in CAP.

A real go-getter, wanted to do a lot for the unit.

He came to a few meetings after that...never saw him again; I asked the CC once what happened to him, answer was "I don't know.  Maybe I should call him."

Gotta love that retention strategy.....

Lt Col 13 Aug 2003  SPECIAL APPOINTMENT

Maj 26 Jun 2001  PROFESSIONAL     GRW - #2095  12/31/01

Capt 27 May 1998  PROFESSIONAL

1st Lt 31 Oct 1996  SPECIAL APPOINTMENT


LV1 30 Sep 1996 
LV2 30 Nov 1998 
LV3 31 Jan 2000 
LV4 31 May 2000 
LV5 31 Dec 2001 

How, exactly, do military promotions work?
If one is an Air Force or Reserve Captain and, concurrently, a CAP member of the same grade ...
When they get promoted to MAJ, does CAP extend the same promotion to MAJ?
Anyone know?

Quote from: USACAP on February 17, 2016, 04:37:17 AM
How, exactly, do military promotions work?
If one is an Air Force or Reserve Captain and, concurrently, a CAP member of the same grade ...
When they get promoted to MAJ, does CAP extend the same promotion to MAJ?
Anyone know?

Yes they do.

35-5

Quote3-4. Regular and Reserve Officers of the Armed Forces.
Regular, Reserve and National Guard Officers of the Armed Forces or Coast Guard of the United States, active, retired or resigned, may be advanced to a CAP grade equivalent to their grade in the Armed Forces (but not to exceed lieutenant colonel), in recognition of their military knowledge and experience.  Such promotions are neither automatic nor mandatory, but are at the discretion of the promoting authority outlined in paragraph 1-5.  Additionally, individuals who obtained the grade of warrant officer may be promoted to the CAP grade shown in figure 3 below. NOTE: The unit commander will initiate initial promotion to officer grade based on prior military service only where proper documentation for that grade exists (a copy of DD Form 214, military identification card or promotion order showing the grade requested is considered sufficient).

So....CAP/USAF Capt gets promoted to Major in the USAF....he just brings a copy of his promotion orders, or his new ID card and fills out a CAPF 2 and send it off to NHQ and it is done.

Hey, Colonel Jack, when was it that we got our Admiralships from the great State of Nebraska?  I can't find my certificate...

Quote from: CyBorg on February 02, 2016, 05:04:13 PM
In my former squadron we had a retired Navy Commander (helicopter flight instructor, had flown most of the Navy's rotary-wing aircraft).

A nice fellow, I got on with him quite well.

He got Lt Col straight out of the box.  I don't think I have ever seen that before in all my prior years in CAP.

A real go-getter, wanted to do a lot for the unit.

He came to a few meetings after that...never saw him again; I asked the CC once what happened to him, answer was "I don't know.  Maybe I should call him."

Really?  I could name probably 10 people I know who got CAP Lt Col upon joining based on military rank.

Quote from: Flying Pig on February 17, 2016, 09:32:31 PM

Quote from: CyBorg on February 02, 2016, 05:04:13 PM
In my former squadron we had a retired Navy Commander (helicopter flight instructor, had flown most of the Navy's rotary-wing aircraft).

A nice fellow, I got on with him quite well.

He got Lt Col straight out of the box.  I don't think I have ever seen that before in all my prior years in CAP.

A real go-getter, wanted to do a lot for the unit.

He came to a few meetings after that...never saw him again; I asked the CC once what happened to him, answer was "I don't know.  Maybe I should call him."

Really?  I could name probably 10 people I know who got CAP Lt Col upon joining based on military rank.

I have three in my own squadron, and have seen several others in other units.

^^
I didn't say it never happened; I just said I'd never seen it.

Quote from: lordmonar on February 17, 2016, 05:05:44 AM

Quote from: USACAP on February 17, 2016, 04:37:17 AM
How, exactly, do military promotions work?
If one is an Air Force or Reserve Captain and, concurrently, a CAP member of the same grade ...
When they get promoted to MAJ, does CAP extend the same promotion to MAJ?
Anyone know?

Yes they do.

35-5

Quote3-4. Regular and Reserve Officers of the Armed Forces.
Regular, Reserve and National Guard Officers of the Armed Forces or Coast Guard of the United States, active, retired or resigned, may be advanced to a CAP grade equivalent to their grade in the Armed Forces (but not to exceed lieutenant colonel), in recognition of their military knowledge and experience.  Such promotions are neither automatic nor mandatory, but are at the discretion of the promoting authority outlined in paragraph 1-5.  Additionally, individuals who obtained the grade of warrant officer may be promoted to the CAP grade shown in figure 3 below. NOTE: The unit commander will initiate initial promotion to officer grade based on prior military service only where proper documentation for that grade exists (a copy of DD Form 214, military identification card or promotion order showing the grade requested is considered sufficient).

So....CAP/USAF Capt gets promoted to Major in the USAF....he just brings a copy of his promotion orders, or his new ID card and fills out a CAPF 2 and send it off to NHQ and it is done.

Not quite.  The member still goes through the promotion board process.  Like it says in the reg that you quoted, the promotion is not automatic or mandatory.

Quote from: SarDragon on February 17, 2016, 09:37:48 PM

Quote from: Flying Pig on February 17, 2016, 09:32:31 PM

Quote from: CyBorg on February 02, 2016, 05:04:13 PM
In my former squadron we had a retired Navy Commander (helicopter flight instructor, had flown most of the Navy's rotary-wing aircraft).

A nice fellow, I got on with him quite well.

He got Lt Col straight out of the box.  I don't think I have ever seen that before in all my prior years in CAP.

A real go-getter, wanted to do a lot for the unit.

He came to a few meetings after that...never saw him again; I asked the CC once what happened to him, answer was "I don't know.  Maybe I should call him."

Really?  I could name probably 10 people I know who got CAP Lt Col upon joining based on military rank.

I have three in my own squadron, and have seen several others in other units.

Just saw it occur in the Chaplain Corps.  Retired USAF Lt Col joins as a Chaplain....initial rank in May of 2014 at appointment was Capt.    Mid-January became Lt Col.  Know of two other retired officers in the Chaplain Corps that this has happened with in the last 5-6 years.

Under what circumstances would the temporary period be extended for more than a year?

Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on August 18, 2016, 01:10:15 AM
Under what circumstances would the temporary period be extended for more than a year?

Failure to perform at the level of a Lt Col in the eyes of the approver.

Deciding to resign from a wing or other staff job, return to a squadron and never show up again,
major mishaps or disciplinary infractions, poor inspection in a section he's responsible for, inappropriate
military intensity with cadets, negligently bend an aircraft, lose or damage property, to name a few as possibilities.

Interesting.

Regulation shows no criteria by which a temporary promotion must be left temporary. Is it possible we have people walking around as light colonels with 10 years on temporary status? And if so, why?

Regulation says the first year is temporary and then the Wing Commander decides to make it permanent or not.
There is no provision to extend the temporary period. It's just an up or down decision by the Wing Commander.
And I can not recall ever seeing anybody not getting permanent award of Lieutenant Colonel.
Not saying it hasn't happened, but I've never seen it. And I've been in CAP for 39 years...

Region CC approves of Lt Colonel for Regions and subordinate units, and must approve permanency.

The regulation regarding action for permanency is only in effect for those promoted since Oct 2009, so at most you could have
temporary Lt Cols being held up for the last 7 years. As PHall says, I've never seen it either other then a few months
due more to in attention then overtly being held back.  I can't imagine anyone sitting temporary for more the a second year without
some sort of complaint, either official or unofficial, not to mention that would cross CC's after 3-4 years by design, so likely to get
punched then.

CAPR 35-5 Page 5:
"d. Lieutenant Colonel. The region commander is the promoting authority for
promotions to the grade of lieutenant colonel for all members assigned to the region headquarters
and subordinate units within the region. This authority will not be delegated. All lieutenant
colonel promotions are temporary for 1 year. Individuals promoted to the grade of lieutenant
colonel after 1 October 2009 will require specific action by the approving authority to authorize
the permanent grade of lieutenant colonel. One year after the initial promotion to lieutenant
colonel, the individual member's name will appear in the approving authority's Commander's
Corner application. Commanders may confirm the individual's permanent promotion to the
grade of lieutenant colonel, extend the temporary grade of lieutenant colonel for an additional
year or have the individual revert to the previous grade held prior to promotion to lieutenant
colonel."

The  temporary year as Lt Col was in the regs well prior to 2009, but CAP didn't have a formal process for identifying or tracking LT Cols in that status prior to 2009.

I know of one who's gone more than four years as temporary, without any justification. It's baffling.

Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on August 19, 2016, 03:08:49 AM
I know of one who's gone more than four years as temporary, without any justification. It's baffling.

That's just begging for for an IG Complaint. Hope all of the Wing Commanders involved documented everything.

Quote from: PHall on August 19, 2016, 06:13:08 AM

Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on August 19, 2016, 03:08:49 AM
I know of one who's gone more than four years as temporary, without any justification. It's baffling.

That's just begging for for an IG Complaint. Hope all of the Wing Commanders involved documented everything.

If a commander can make a decision without the guidance of regulation (and there is no prescribed rationale in CAPR 35-5), does there need to be documentation?

Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on August 24, 2016, 01:03:33 AM

Quote from: PHall on August 19, 2016, 06:13:08 AM

Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on August 19, 2016, 03:08:49 AM
I know of one who's gone more than four years as temporary, without any justification. It's baffling.

That's just begging for for an IG Complaint. Hope all of the Wing Commanders involved documented everything.

If a commander can make a decision without the guidance of regulation (and there is no prescribed rationale in CAPR 35-5), does there need to be documentation?

It helps when they get interviewed in the course of resolving the IG Complaint.

Quote from: Eclipse on August 18, 2016, 03:54:42 AM
Region CC approves of Lt Colonel for Regions and subordinate units, and must approve permanency.

The regulation regarding action for permanency is only in effect for those promoted since Oct 2009, so at most you could have
temporary Lt Cols being held up for the last 7 years. As PHall says, I've never seen it either other then a few months
due more to in attention then overtly being held back.  I can't imagine anyone sitting temporary for more the a second year without
some sort of complaint, either official or unofficial, not to mention that would cross CC's after 3-4 years by design, so likely to get
punched then.

CAPR 35-5 Page 5:
"d. Lieutenant Colonel. The region commander is the promoting authority for
promotions to the grade of lieutenant colonel for all members assigned to the region headquarters
and subordinate units within the region. This authority will not be delegated. All lieutenant
colonel promotions are temporary for 1 year. Individuals promoted to the grade of lieutenant
colonel after 1 October 2009 will require specific action by the approving authority to authorize
the permanent grade of lieutenant colonel. One year after the initial promotion to lieutenant
colonel, the individual member's name will appear in the approving authority's Commander's
Corner application. Commanders may confirm the individual's permanent promotion to the
grade of lieutenant colonel, extend the temporary grade of lieutenant colonel for an additional
year or have the individual revert to the previous grade held prior to promotion to lieutenant
colonel."

So I have mainly been a lurker on this site for years with very few posts but this caught my attention and I would open to any advice you can provide on this topic.  Here's the summary.
I have a member in my unit who is currently a CAP Major and a retired 06 in the Air Force.  He has been a CAP member (both as a cadet and senior for 40+ years) although He has not been active in CAP all these 40 years due to his military commitment. Since coming into my squadron, he's been somewhat active but his commercial flying has kept him busy. He had a long distinguished military career in the AF and even served directly under our previous Chief of Staff, Gen. Welsh! He's flown multiple combat aircraft and is working on getting his CAP pilot rating back.  He is extremely personable and a huge asset to the squadron and the wing in terms of his leadership and mentoring skills.  When he is able to come to meetings or exercises, he is very involved.  He received his CAP promotion to Major back when he was a Major in the Air Force.  This was a long time ago and he was not part of my squadron when this occurred. 

Shortly after transferring to my squadron, I submitted his promotion paperwork to Wing.  I felt that his longevity in CAP and his distinguished career in the AF warranted his promotion to Lt. Col. in the CAP and I cited the above regulation.  It was denied on the basis that the this form of promotion could only be used once and he already received a promotion to Major this way.

I fought it because I could not find anything in the regulations stating this could only be done once!  It was denied again by the Wing Commander.  This time he stated that this member was not doing enough in the Squadron or the Wing to warrant that promotion. 

My argument to this is that the language for promotions to Lt. Col. specifically states "The region commander is the promoting authority for promotions to the grade of lieutenant colonel for all members assigned to the region headquarters and subordinate units within the region. This authority will not be delegated."  I interpret this as while the Wing Commander may not approve of the Promotion to Lt. Col., doesn't he at least have to forward along the request (with any comments he might have) to the Region Commander.  The Wing Commander stopped it at his level and I'm of the impression that he does not have the authority to do that.

Thoughts or advice? 

Yes, you are correct that the Region Commander is the Promoting Authority for Lt Col, and that there is no limits as to how many times a member may be promoted under military grade equivalency. 

However, it further states that it is neither automatic or mandatory.  It is further required that a member pass through each echelon's promotion review board.  Thus, it can stop at Group or Wing, and never see the Region Commander's desk.  The Wing Commander is well within his/her purview to say that the participation level is not up to the level that warrants Lt Col.  You and I may well disagree with that determination, and I would agree with your assessment, but the Wing Commander has the Birds and the responsibilities that go along with them, to include getting a hand slapped if the Region CC finds out about it, and disagrees.

Quote from: Hoodsie on August 24, 2016, 04:53:40 PM
My argument to this is that the language for promotions to Lt. Col. specifically states "The region commander is the promoting authority for promotions to the grade of lieutenant colonel for all members assigned to the region headquarters and subordinate units within the region. This authority will not be delegated."  I interpret this as while the Wing Commander may not approve of the Promotion to Lt. Col., doesn't he at least have to forward along the request (with any comments he might have) to the Region Commander. 

You interpret it incorrectly.  The Region CC is the final authority, however under normal circumstances the entire chain
must approve the promotion. 

Quote from: Hoodsie on August 24, 2016, 04:53:40 PM
The Wing Commander stopped it at his level and I'm of the impression that he does not have the authority to do that.

He not only has the authority, he has the duty.

Hopping the chain for a promotion circumvents the authority and responsibility of every commander whose opinion is
ignored.  The Region CC could certainly initiate his own promotion action if he felt it warranted, but there is really no
justification for that in the case you cited.

Your situation is no different then a unit member who isn't being promoted to Captain hopping up until he gets
an answer he likes.  How would that effect good order and discipline? When a promotion is denied, regardless of
level, that's where it ends, and the next higher HQ is never even aware of it.

To address the specifics of this case...

He's assigned to a unit, has sporadic participation, and was already granted one promotion for military equivalence.
Unless he's assigned as a liaison to the USAF, the fact that he worked with Gen Walsh, or flew exciting airplanes,
is really irrelevant to CAP service, especially for a pilot who isn't currently flying for CAP.

"Longevity" in and of itself is not justification for a promotion to that level.

Okay.  Thanks for setting me straight.  As in most cases, it's how you interpret the regulations.  I appreciate the quick feedback.

The temporary or probationary period for promotion to Lt. Col. is 100%, USDA grade A choice, bovine excrement, in my opinion.  It was ill conceived in 2009 and is poorly administered today. It is all subjective. It does more harm than good and conflates several issues into one. First and frankly, I believe any region commander who doesn't make the promotion permanent is weak of character unless they provide the member a road map to success. Second, there is no other promotion that is second guessed a year later! What do you do about a Lt.Col.(Brevet) that transfers because of work and it takes him or her awhile to get settled in? Extend the probation because he neglected his volunteer job. What if he was in a motorcycle accident and took 6 months to recover? "Congratulations on the new job, welcome to town and by the way you're not a LtCol anymore Major, I'm pretty sure this setback won't impact what your new squadron mates think of you. Thank you for volunteering. Keep up the good work."

If promotion to LtCol was so magical and special then there would be provisions for Wing Commanders that never achieved the rank to serve as LtCols for at least a year much like if the National Commander gets the job as a Colonel and has to serve a year as a one star.

As for it being poorly administers there are several problems with it. If there is an extension there is no way of knowing you have been given more probation time. There is no way for a squadron commander to know this information either. It is a built in adverse membership action that has no recourse. If one region commander promotes the guy to LtCol and there are no adverse reports because he is doing his job and a new region commander comes along, the new region commander gets to second guess the original promoting authority. Seems like an corporate integrity issue when one region commander second guesses another?

Shoot take case of the National Commander who was convicted of domestic violence; that happened back when he was a Major being promoted to LtCol. He kept his silver oak leafs. Using that example, you would have to do something very heinous to revert back to Major, like posting and reading opinions and conjecture on CAPTalk.

I don't have a strong opinion on this, but...

Quote from: Robert Hartigan on August 24, 2016, 10:16:07 PMWhat do you do about a Lt.Col.(Brevet) that transfers because of work and it takes him or her awhile to get settled in? Extend the probation because he neglected his volunteer job.

That is exactly what happened to me, actually. Promoted to Lt Col in 2011, relocated by my employer to a different Region in 2012, and Lt Col wasn't made permanent until 2013. It was done by my new Region Commander.

I didn't actually know the probation had been extended. I assumed it was permanent. I only knew in 2013 because I got an auto-generated email from eServices telling me I was permanent.

------

The language about Lt Col being probationary for a year has been in the regulations longer than 2009. What happened in 2009 is that they made an eServices module for it.

And oh BTW, Colonel is also probationary for a year. If you are relieved as Wing CC before one year, you're gonna be a Lt Col again (or whatever you were before).

Quote from: Robert Hartigan on August 24, 2016, 10:16:07 PMWhat do you do about a Lt.Col.(Brevet) that transfers because of work and it takes him or her awhile to get settled in? Extend the probation because he neglected his volunteer job.

Brevet really isn't an appropriate term, as those promotions, while temporary, were generally based on meritorious service.

A member assigned to a squadron isn't serving at the level of Lt Col to start with, so whether he qualifies at all
is questionable, the fact that CAP unevenly applies this expectation not withstanding.  As is repeated often,
promotions aren't supposed to be rewards for work done, they are supposed to be expectations of increased responsibility.

It's rough because CAP doesn't stress this enough, if at all, at the unit level, but by the time you're looking at FGO
grade you should know and understand that, if you don't, frankly, it's questionable >if< you are ready for it. If no one has
been training you properly and holding the expectations properly, then it feels like the rules changed, when in fact they
weren't being applied right early on.

Also, by the time you get to that level, if you don't understand that personality conflicts and "making the boss happy" are part of the package, then again, you probably don't understand enough about the system to be an effective officer
(whether or not this is an effective and proper way to deal with volunteers is a separate and different conversation, irrelevant to the reality of the way things are today).

Promotions are different then PD levels, specialty tracks, and even ES quals, where those have objective expectations
with no subjective variable at the end.  If you did it, you get it, but even then the "did it" has to be to someone's satisfaction who has the pen or the click.

Quote from: dwb on August 24, 2016, 11:39:47 PM
...Colonel is also probationary for a year. If you are relieved as Wing CC before one year, you're gonna be a Lt Col again (or whatever you were before).

It is no longer a defined "year", as there is no longer a probationary year for Wing Commanders.
https://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/R020_001_73F1BA70FD9EB.pdf

CAPR 35-5 Page 12:
https://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/R035_005_489E25C089E93.pdf
"b. Wing Commander. Promotion to the temporary grade of colonel is concurrent with
appointment as wing commander. The permanent grade of colonel is contingent upon the
satisfactory completion of assignment, recommendation of the region commander and approval
of the National Commander."

All Wing Commanders serving a probationary period were all released according to an ICL dated 15 Nov 2015. If the guy is a screw up and fails to complete the assignment he loses his birds. It is funny that a Colonel only needs to satisfactorily complete his assignment to keep his promotion, but the rest of us have to perform in an exemplary manner to get or keep a promotion. If a wing commander doesn't complete 4 years or fails to meet the level of satisfactory performance then I think he should be terminated because it is too critical of a job. If he can't do the job as a wing commander what makes you think he is going to be a stellar LtCol afterwards?

Quote from: Robert Hartigan on August 24, 2016, 11:57:15 PMIf he can't do the job as a wing commander what makes you think he is going to be a stellar LtCol afterwards?

Well...there's a lot of subjective there.

I know a lot of people who are good at their jobs at a high level who would make terrible wing CC's, but might get
roped into a Wing King job, especially when you consider how narrow the field can be these days.

A lot of very effective operations people who have held the flight ops side of the house together for years have never
had a command slot, and are horrible at the politics needed to be a Wing CC.

Maybe they don't get to keep the eagles, but terminating them for taking a job few want and is very hard to
accomplish even for the good ones?

So if a member is in probationary status for multiple years and is then demoted, is THAT then not an adverse action — regardless of the member's actions?

Under the regulation directing the MARP, would that be considered "retribution" by its tortured definition?

Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on August 25, 2016, 01:34:29 AM
So if a member is in probationary status for multiple years and is then demoted, is THAT then not an adverse action — regardless of the member's actions?

No, at least not as defined by the regulations.

Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on August 25, 2016, 01:34:29 AM
Under the regulation directing the MARP, would that be considered "retribution" by its tortured definition?

No.  Not being qualified is not the same as retribution.  For retribution you'd have to show an action and a reaction.

"You move away and stopped playing CAP..." is a legitimate reason not to make the promotion permanent. People
want to believe the "why" of them not being around "divorce, job change, lack of free time, moving" is somehow relevent
to this kind of discussion.  It's not, because the clock still ticks and the work still has to be done...by someone else now,
maybe as a second or third job.

Again, how it's construed by the membership, or whether this is a best practice for volunteers is separate from what
is currently in the regs.

Eclipse, I looked through the MARP's blotter and saw where at least three lieutenant colonels were either extended or demoted, then appealed through the MARP process. The MARP said it had no jursidiction, which made sense to me.

And I thought the "retribution" definition could be further twisted to mean things that aren't retributive (the language was written by someone in Alabama, obviously).

Your explanation makes perfect sense, and I readily accept it. That said, why can't the 35-3 offer clear guidance? Why was it written vaguely (or vacuously, as the case may be)? Of course, those are rhetorical questions, but they're valid and someone with authority should lay out at least some general guidelines. I know as a lieutenant colonel of several years, I'd want to know WHY I stand where I stand if I was still temporary... or that I was even in an extended probationary period to begin with.

I dunno - I've argued for years that the language of all the regs needs to be much more specific, laymen-accessible,
and hold people accountable, but here we are.

This gets back to the "how you treat volunteers" aspect of the discussion.  Its takes 10-15 years, at least, of fair
activity to get to Lt Col.  I don't understand how leaders can believe that people with that level of initiative are going to
stick around if they feel they have been treated unfairly.  And as part of that, how CAP can afford to lose the investment of
time, training, and yes, money, that has been expended in those members over some insignia they don't even supply, and that
confers no authority or compensation.  It takes ten years to grow these people.

We're not talking about careers here.  This isn't a "cash the check and suck it up" situation. We're talking about
how people spend their valuable free time, and usually are paying to do it at that.

The real question is how is anyone >not< qualified even put up to start with?  Why aren't the expectations set properly
when they are Lts?  When you join the military, there is no specific expectation that you, or anyone else, will
retire as an O-5 or a Chief, but in CAP, the insinuation is on the table from day-1 that if you make the effort,
and follow the rules, everyone can be a Lt Colonel someday.

Check the boxes, write the checks, show up regularly. Boom goes the dynamite. Stay at the squadron, do your staff
job, thank you for your time.

But then as members move up to the FGs, there starts to be whispers and discussions about "standards" and
"expectations", even though none of these exist anywhere in a practical sense.

A big part of this is CCs who don't want to have uncomfottable conversations, so they click people through regardless
of their actual abilities, in the same way some school systems pass students on to the next grade because it's easier then
dealing with the fallout.  This is a disserve to everyone, and many times these people become the fodder of hallway whispers
"How the heck did he ever make Major?"  "Why do people put up with him, he's clueless."

But no one tells >him< he's clueless.  He's not doing much, doesn't get corrected when he's wrong (easier just to
ignore him), and his section of the SUI or CI is something no one wants to do, and can be completed with two reports, so
he somehow gets an outstanding even though he's really not done anything but file paper.

He does that for 10 years, then when it's promo time, he's told "You're not ready..." What?

Most would say it's reasonable that Majs and Lt Cols should be moving out of squadrons and up to Groups, Wings, and Region,
but because CAP is as much a social situation as a service, people just want to stay at the squadron their whole
careers and hang with the people they know.   In my case, I mentioned the other day that I had a clock over my shoulder
and needed to start talking about my replacement and where I'd look next, and I got a couple of "Why would you want to leave?"
looks.

Technically you can't even be eligible for an FGO promotion if you haven't served at a wing level because most specialties
require that tenure for Master levels, but with CAP being so short-handed, we have members doing ADY jobs all over the place,
which sets up both circular reporting relationships as well as "breaking" the need to transfer to higher HQ for promotions.

If the expectation will be such 10 years down the line, then CAP should make it clear from day one that members who
choose to serve locally only will top out at Captain under normal circumstances, and that includes the CCs.  That's a proper
grade for a "company", thus the term "company grade".  The "back down to the squadron" mentality has to stop, and in the
rare case an FGO has to assume squadron command, it's temporary by reg, and only until the new CC is found.

Lt Cols should not be squadron CCs, nor should Majors.  Not if you want the grade to have weight and make sense.  By that level
your scope should be much larger, and if you don't want the scope, you don't get the grade.

But until we ramp up by 50+%, and stop this "you can do everything and anything in CAP" underlying thread, this is not going to
change.

Quote from: Eclipse on August 25, 2016, 03:17:42 AMLt Cols should not be squadron CCs, nor should Majors.  Not if you want the grade to have weight and make sense.  By that level your scope should be much larger, and if you don't want the scope, you don't get the grade.

Eh, that would be true if we had some kind of "up or out" rule, but we don't.

Really long-serving members are going to move up the echelons, that's true, but they're also likely to move back down then back up again. And people serve at multiple echelons concurrently.

With the exception of Col+ and special promotions, rank is divorced from duty assignment because that's what serves the culture of the organization. Someone can serve at Wing or Region, then their kid decides to join the program so they go back to the squadron level to help out. We don't take rank away from those people, nor should we.

I was a squadron commander 10+ years ago, as a Capt. I may be a squadron commander again in the future (lord help me if I am). I've got a lot of years left, it's silly to take the black-and-white view that "Lt Cols shouldn't be squadron commanders".

Quote from: Eclipse on August 25, 2016, 03:17:42 AMThe "back down to the squadron" mentality has to stop

Many reasonable minds would disagree with this sentiment. With people serving 50+ years, you'd be foolish to tell them they're not allowed to change their level of involvement to suit their availability as they move through life.

Quote from: dwb on August 25, 2016, 02:39:14 PM

Quote from: Eclipse on August 25, 2016, 03:17:42 AMLt Cols should not be squadron CCs, nor should Majors.  Not if you want the grade to have weight and make sense.  By that level your scope should be much larger, and if you don't want the scope, you don't get the grade.

Eh, that would be true if we had some kind of "up or out" rule, but we don't.

Really long-serving members are going to move up the echelons, that's true, but they're also likely to move back down then back up again. And people serve at multiple echelons concurrently.

With the exception of Col+ and special promotions, rank is divorced from duty assignment because that's what serves the culture of the organization. Someone can serve at Wing or Region, then their kid decides to join the program so they go back to the squadron level to help out. We don't take rank away from those people, nor should we.

I was a squadron commander 10+ years ago, as a Capt. I may be a squadron commander again in the future (lord help me if I am). I've got a lot of years left, it's silly to take the black-and-white view that "Lt Cols shouldn't be squadron commanders".

Quote from: Eclipse on August 25, 2016, 03:17:42 AMThe "back down to the squadron" mentality has to stop

Many reasonable minds would disagree with this sentiment. With people serving 50+ years, you'd be foolish to tell them they're not allowed to change their level of involvement to suit their availability as they move through life.

While the military has the "up and out" mentality/culture, that is not part of the CAP corporation culture - nor should it be.   We are a group of volunteers committing to serve our local communities and our country.  Yes, it is true that often as one advances in the Professional Development there are greater places of responsibility that come with the rank on the shoulder.  From my personal experience and observations, I have noticed that there are some that aspire to higher levels of responsibility -- and pursuing the PD program equips them for that.  On the other hand, I have noticed that there are others who pursue the PD program...receive the rank that goes with fulfilling the requirements -- yet do not aspire or want to serve at higher levels.   It's a matter of personal choice.   In my case, I have been a Lt Col for several years now and have been privileged to serve at Wing, Region and National levels.   There have been a couple of times that there was a time frame between serving at one of the higher levels and the next.   Guess where I served...back at the local squadron (notice I did not say "back DOWN").   If fact, when the time permits, you will find me at the local squadron.   Regardless of the rank earned or bestowed, there are needs in CAP that need to be met....and we should be willing to serve in a capacity that meets that need.  If the local squadron has a chaplain (of CDI) assigned, I will be there to assist and mentor...but in most situations there isn't a chaplain or CDI assigned.  And that's where this Lt Col will be :)  It is not a "demotion" rather it is an opportunity to serve.

An organizaiton without an "up or out" culture, should not have "up or out grade", which the military model is.

That, or stop pretending that promotions imply increased responsibility.

Last time  I looked, we don't have up or out grade. If someone wants to stop promoting at a specific grade, there is no mechanism in place to dissuade it. I am stuck at Major, and no one local to me seems to mind. I have reached my "level of incompetence," and see no need to overreach my skill set.

Sent from my phone.

Quote from: SarDragon on August 25, 2016, 10:10:56 PM
Last time  I looked, we don't have up or out grade.

No, we don't - that's the problem.

The military model CAP emulates, the one we project to the world, and the one which is randomly applied as requiring
"more responsibility for advancement" is, an "up and model", and that's why CAP's grade has always been broken,
and the inconsistent way its applied cause issues.

Part of any "fix", including trying in add an enlisted corps, has to address this inconsistency in the grade expectations
vs. real-world application.

Quote from: Eclipse on August 25, 2016, 10:16:44 PM

Quote from: SarDragon on August 25, 2016, 10:10:56 PM
Last time  I looked, we don't have up or out grade.

No, we don't - that's the problem.

The military model CAP emulates, the one we project to the world, and the one which is randomly applied as requiring
"more responsibility for advancement" is, an "up and model", and that's why CAP's grade has always been broken,
and the inconsistent way its applied cause issues.

Part of any "fix", including trying in add an enlisted corps, has to address this inconsistency in the grade expectations
vs. real-world application.

And I don't see that we need up or out.

The military is billet driven, to a great extent, and there are end strength limitations. There are many instances where someone in a small community has to retire or die for a promotion billet to open up. There is also high year tenure, so you can hang around so long, and then you're out. That happened to My Sweetie - she reached 24 years in, and hadn't made E-8. She was not allowed to continue, and retired. Had I not retired when I did, I would have been pushed out at 23, as an E-6. That's where up or out comes into play.

CAP is not like this. You can have as many, or few, of any grade as happen to promote, and it has little effect on things overall. I doubt that we will ever be in a position where we have too many people, so up or out won't be needed.

Quote from: SarDragon on August 26, 2016, 01:34:07 AM
And I don't see that we need up or out.

I'm not either, and if that's the case, CAP needs to either:

Discontinue placing inconsistent expectations of "more responsibility" on members when they go to promote to field grades,
and simply treat them as indicators of accomplishment and time.

Or

Set a requirement that if you want to be promoted to FG, then you have to accept "up or out" permanently.

At its current state of manning, and considering membership trends, the organization would collapse at the local level
if it moved to an "up or out" philosophy. So accepting that, the leadership should address the issues of alienation and
discontent caused when members who have held up their corner for a decade are suddenly inexplicably unqualified to
write a check to VG for new insignia, based purely on the subjective "not ready" or "stepping back" as is often the case.

I have seen a number of highly qualified members who spent their time serving others and ignoring their own PD.
I've said before that this is a bad idea as it sets a poor example and also comes with a fair amount of risk, but it is
still allowed to continue.

So they go on their happy way running units and activities, and don't feel they have the time to document their
own work to get the credit.  It's only after a successful tour and between assignments that they take some time for
themselves to document and get credit for all the hard work.

They put in the PD, it's all signed and delivered, and then they are told because they haven't (yet) accepted a new
CAP job of increased scope, they don't qualify for the next grade.

Now you have a highly qualified member who deserves the recognition of the next grade, sitting back saying,
"if this how they treat me?"  Maybe I have better things to do.

And too many find something else, and leave.

Whether one has no grade, or wears two stars on their shoulders, an active adult member in CAP is "just" a senior member.  Grade serves no function in CAP any longer. Commanders, and staff officers have badges to wear showing their expertise and/or authority.  National Staff, Command Council, and CSAG members have more bling today than ever before. It all looks good, and Vanguard is very happy.

At this point, I think CAP grade would be relevant only if it indicates level of PD achievement; Col, and Flag Grades reserved for appropriate command level.   

Quote from: Eclipse on August 26, 2016, 01:42:25 AM

Quote from: SarDragon on August 26, 2016, 01:34:07 AM
And I don't see that we need up or out.

I'm not either, and if that's the case, CAP needs to either:

Discontinue placing inconsistent expectations of "more responsibility" on members when they go to promote to field grades,
and simply treat them as indicators of accomplishment and time.

Or

Set a requirement that if you want to be promoted to FG, then you have to accept "up or out" permanently.

At its current state of manning, and considering membership trends, the organization would collapse at the local level
if it moved to an "up or out" philosophy. So accepting that, the leadership should address the issues of alienation and
discontent caused when members who have held up their corner for a decade are suddenly inexplicably unqualified to
write a check to VG for new insignia, based purely on the subjective "not ready" or "stepping back" as is often the case.

I have seen a number of highly qualified members who spent their time serving others and ignoring their own PD.
I've said before that this is a bad idea as it sets a poor example and also comes with a fair amount of risk, but it is
still allowed to continue.

So they go on their happy way running units and activities, and don't feel they have the time to document their
own work to get the credit.  It's only after a successful tour and between assignments that they take some time for
themselves to document and get credit for all the hard work.

They put in the PD, it's all signed and delivered, and then they are told because they haven't (yet) accepted a new
CAP job of increased scope, they don't qualify for the next grade.

Now you have a highly qualified member who deserves the recognition of the next grade, sitting back saying,
"if this how they treat me?"  Maybe I have better things to do.

And too many find something else, and leave.

The problem with the "up or out permanently" philosophy is what do you do with them when their term is done.  Example:  All Wing Staff are appointed at the discretion of the Wing Commander.  At the beginning of the new Wing Commander's term Captain Doe is assigned Chief of Staff and since he is qualified promoted to Major.  4 years go by, a new Wing Commander comes in, and does not want Major Doe in a staff position.  Do we kick him out of the organization?  Demote him though he did his job?  Until and unless we become a military organization with a set number of billets, and there are fewer ways to get grade, I think we need to stop getting wrapped around the axle on this

I think we absolutely do get wrapped around the axle on this. In my personal instance, I made LTC at age 29, while in a Squadron commanders billet in MDWG; the then-Chief of Staff, with an Army officers background, apparently disapproved of promoting someone so young into that grade, and when the opposition didn't work, made that displeasure clear. He walked down the aisle at a commanders call and literally dropped the paperwork in my lap and walked off - no "congrats", no ceremony, no recognition at all - which somewhat incensed my brother COs.  I could see that he had had problems reconciling his (professional) officers mental model of what a silver leaf wearer should be, versus my status at the time, so I chose not to take all this personally. Someone told me that they thought he would have had grounds to deny it, had I not had the additional "Baraka" of serving as a unit/CC (in a 20-1 billet "authorized" for LTC).


I question a business model for a volunteer organization that tinkers with our "pay" (recognition, praise, rewarding further assignments, etc.) in such ways.  We then wonder why we have issues retaining leaders and are stuck with the same old guys decade after decade?


V/R
Spam

Quote from: Alaric on August 26, 2016, 01:19:54 PMUntil and unless we become a military organization with a set number of billets, and there are fewer ways to get grade, I think we need to stop getting wrapped around the axle on this

I don't disagree with this, in which case CAP needs to remove the subjective from the promotion requirements and stop playing "gotcha" games.
It's not fair to benefit from someone's time and treasure for 10-15 years and then say "hmm, wish you hdd done more, we'll get back to you..."

Promotions should be "assumed approved unless otherwise indicated", with the "otherwise indicated" being so rare as to never happen.

Also, better adherence to the rules and regs at lower levels would also help negate issues at the higher ones. 
Many times the disapproval or "slow downs" are because "he just checked the boxes".  Fair enough.  Make checking those boxes
actually take consistent effort, with the side benefit being a much stronger and better educated cadre of staff.

The amount of time, effort, and member initiative wasted on the entire promotion system is just a shame, especially since it
literally serve none of the missions, but often becomes a detriment.

And while you can say "well, if you don't like it, don't participate", that's fine on an individual basis, but as a whole, clearly the
collective membership wants to play.

Even as we speak, you have a contingent saying "let's move away from grade or just have it as an
indicator of time and PD" while another group is trying to create a whole 'nother tier with supposed "weight".

This is akin to the similar issue where one 5 members show up to a meeting in a golf shirt and 5 show up in service dress
and they are both "right".

Schizophrenia just makes everyone in the room nervous, even when you're alone.

Yep.

Quote from: Eclipse on August 26, 2016, 02:25:24 PM
Promotions should be "assumed approved unless otherwise indicated", with the "otherwise indicated" being so rare as to never happen.

Also, better adherence to the rules and regs at lower levels would also help negate issues at the higher ones. 
Many times the disapproval or "slow downs" are because "he just checked the boxes".  Fair enough.  Make checking those boxes
actually take consistent effort, with the side benefit being a much stronger and better educated cadre of staff.

The amount of time, effort, and member initiative wasted on the entire promotion system is just a shame, especially since it
literally serve none of the missions, but often becomes a detriment.

Quote from: Garibaldi on January 31, 2016, 01:50:06 AM
...He's supposed to be semi-active out in Colorado or something, waiting for another chance to go up.

He's in Houston, and very active. Should be going up in the next couple of years.

Quote from: BHartman007 on September 18, 2016, 10:34:33 PM

Quote from: Garibaldi on January 31, 2016, 01:50:06 AM
...He's supposed to be semi-active out in Colorado or something, waiting for another chance to go up.

He's in Houston, and very active. Should be going up in the next couple of years.

Yeah, good guy, remembered fondly here in ATL. He participated in the KSC/CCAFS cadet special activity this summer - he had s'mores on the beach Friday night with the cadets.  My oldest son was one of the cadet participants - he is jazzed about following me into a career in aerospace, returned to school with a vengeance, and was inducted into NHS today. Imagine, if you were a science/technology minded cadet, if a former cadet now turned astronaut showed up to have snacks on the beach with you after a week of motivation to study hard, stay on school, challenge the science and math, and be a productive citizen and taxpayer.

Nice, huh?

I honestly believe that former cadets have an inherent mission to give something back to those younger brothers and sisters behind us; COL Boe is right up there doing that. Semper Vigilans.


V/R
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Quote from: Spam on September 19, 2016, 12:53:37 AM


I honestly believe that former cadets have an inherent mission to give something back to those younger brothers and sisters behind us; COL Boe is right up there doing that. Semper Vigilans.


V/R
Spam

This one hits home. There's only a few other SMs of my vintage who were cadets with me. I'm glad to have them onboard, but sorely miss the input of others. It's just hard to get 20-30somethings back to CAP for some reason. Personally, my main goal was to give back at least a little bit of what I got out of the program. At least at the start.

Addendum:

Oddly, in my work in the aerospace and defense sector I keep running across former cadet officers who are now pretty senior military or engineering types, who would easily qualify as a CAP Lt Col.  I was in one meeting a few years ago at a western base where someone made a reference to CAP, laughter ensued, and at the coffee break chat it turned out that we had four current or former CAP Squadron CO's present. We also had several field grades and two O-6s there who were former cadets. I've had that happen recently at Navy and Army meetings as well (one program manager O-5 made an unsolicited comment during a ride across base that he started his tactical aviation career as a cadet).

Point: there is an indeterminate gold mine of talent out there who could be recruited if challenged, integrated and folded into our org properly, and trusted to take charge and move out (and if we don't hamper and hinder and discourage them with needless crap and wickets to jump).  Current or former E whatever, O whatever... should be so easy to promote with no questions.

V/R
Spam

Quote from: Капитан Хаткевич on September 19, 2016, 01:01:49 AM

Quote from: Spam on September 19, 2016, 12:53:37 AM


I honestly believe that former cadets have an inherent mission to give something back to those younger brothers and sisters behind us; COL Boe is right up there doing that. Semper Vigilans.

V/R
Spam

This one hits home. There's only a few other SMs of my vintage who were cadets with me. I'm glad to have them onboard, but sorely miss the input of others. It's just hard to get 20-30somethings back to CAP for some reason. Personally, my main goal was to give back at least a little bit of what I got out of the program. At least at the start.

My "home unit" has a tradition, spurred on by LTC Brian Berry, our Balsam award winning Historian, of having "CAP Veteran" parties and contact lists. While we don't expect that all these former CAP types will return to active service, enough actually do that we are enriched beyond measure by their contributions. If nothing else, having the occasional drive-by observation and comment from the sidelines has brought us up short to correct something that just wasn't right.


That unofficial "CAP Vet" program isn't directly linked to the Patron status. Its as simple as an email list, and as low-commitment as keeping in touch with a Christmas party invite (which LTC Berry sends out annually). It is as emotionally compelling as an online, shared, multi unit "family photo" album that contains legacy photos from decades past with photos from many many units from all over our Wing. Such experiences help weld together a support base and a tradition of excellence that nourishes and motivates our current volunteer set.


Stay in touch!  Keep connected! As members mature and their situations change, you never know. They might return with cadet dependents of their own in a decade or so - to a tradition that you've kept alive and vital.

Cheers,
Spam

Quote from: Spam on September 19, 2016, 01:03:30 AM
Point: there is an indeterminate gold mine of talent out there who could be recruited if challenged, integrated and folded into our org properly, and trusted to take charge and move out (and if we don't hamper and hinder and discourage them with needless crap and wickets to jump).  Current or former E whatever, O whatever... should be so easy to promote with no questions.

Trusted to take charge and move out?

So random people in the military who may have been cadets for a couple of years are suddenly experts on dealing with volunteers?
Or even have a clue about CAP ops?

This post is literally the definition of the problem.  This idea that those in the military, by means of that affiliation alone,
have some sort of superpower in regards to an organizaiton like CAP.

My personal experience, which has always included significant deference to, not to mention hope for the above says otherwise.

For most cases, ex-military members are no more, or less, qualified to hold leadership positions in CAP then anyone else,
however they may bring preconceived notions or bias which actually makes them less effective overall.

I agree on the macro that former members, especially cadets, could be a significant resource - the problem is that CAP breaks
them at precisely the time they should be forging a life-long bond.

12-year olds are inclined to "go with the flow", and as long as they get to play on a regular basis and get some cool pins,
they will tolerate dad dropping them off every week for some marching.

But by the time they are in their teens, they are inclined to look for everything and anything "behind the curtain" to make
excuse to shed their childhood mantles and rebel, and CAP obliges them with plenty behind the curtain, so they get a look and
never come back.

CAP needs to clean out the wizard's storeroom if it ever wants to mine those former members.

Eclipse, I will admit that my sample set here is a bit biased... I work with people who have gone on to achieve in aerospace/defense (vice serve out four years and get out), and my experiences may not be typical. On that basis, I admit that I might need to walk back (read: RETRACT!) a couple of statements like, "promote with no questions". That, obviously, is inapprops... no one should be above questions and reviews - from the most private citizen to our highest offices.

That said, every unit I've served in has been centered near an active military/aerospace defense presence. With my biased sample set of test pilots, engineers and program managers, why - YES, I do believe that they would perform better (and have, in my experience) than even long service members without the professional experience of managing complex flying and military organizations. Within my experience, that is. I admit that a guy who gets out after four years might not be any better a CAP member than any civilian.

And yet...

Ex military members have demonstrated their willingness to put their lives before societal needs. Not that I'd be simplistic enough to accept someone as the savior of a CAP Wing only on the basis of DoD service, but in an organization where we're one third a homeowners association, one third a JROTC unit, and one third a VFW local, I'm willing to bend in favor of trusting the VFW guys over the homeowners association guys.

Also perhaps because I'm a Heinlein fan, but I admit my bias on behalf of those who serve. I cherish them, although I've not accepted all former military applicants (denied a general discharge NCO, once).

V/R
Spam

Quote from: Spam on September 19, 2016, 03:08:27 AM
Eclipse, I will admit that my sample set here is a bit biased

As is mine, but a large number of former military I've dealt with have been some of our biggest goobers. They spend all their time attempting to impress you with their military record, all while completely screwing up the staff job or command they were given.

I've worked with some solid vets to be sure, but the majority have been absolutely nothing special in the context of CAP.

Recently, we had the exact same discussion during an SLS held by our Group. Two of the instructors were ex-USAF who came in to CAP for various reasons. Both of them stated emphatically that they did NOT accept their USAF rank right away and were very glad that they did not because it allowed them the time to see how CAP differs from USAF. One of our students is a new SM (all of two months) who retired from the Air Force after 30 years, finishing as a Colonel. During the interactive sessions he was constantly asking very good questions and commented on the fact that his Air Force career (which included a few stints as a Wing and Squadron Commander) and experiences were so very different than what CAP does that he wonders how we manage to accomplish all that we do?

Bottom line - It's much better to come in as an SM and work you way up - at least for the first year or two - before asking / receiving the advanced grade that you are eligible for.

You are correct.
It's not odd at all.
In my SAMS cohort more than 50% of us were former CAP cadets with at least a Mitchell award.
CAP is NOT terribly approachable for former/current military types who don't understand CAP.
I do not know what the solution is...

Quote from: Spam on September 19, 2016, 01:03:30 AM
Addendum:

Oddly, in my work in the aerospace and defense sector I keep running across former cadet officers who are now pretty senior military or engineering types, who would easily qualify as a CAP Lt Col.  I was in one meeting a few years ago at a western base where someone made a reference to CAP, laughter ensued, and at the coffee break chat it turned out that we had four current or former CAP Squadron CO's present. We also had several field grades and two O-6s there who were former cadets. I've had that happen recently at Navy and Army meetings as well (one program manager O-5 made an unsolicited comment during a ride across base that he started his tactical aviation career as a cadet).

Point: there is an indeterminate gold mine of talent out there who could be recruited if challenged, integrated and folded into our org properly, and trusted to take charge and move out (and if we don't hamper and hinder and discourage them with needless crap and wickets to jump).  Current or former E whatever, O whatever... should be so easy to promote with no questions.

V/R
Spam

It's not rocket science dude.
A former O6 could very easily take over multiple CAP programs @ the SQN or Group level and run them.
CAP regs and pams are pretty thin.
Teaching cadet stuff, to a field grade officer, should be very very very simple and a light lift.
A War College grad should be able, with minimal front-load, to do SQN-level professional development for seniors too.

Quote from: MacGruff on September 19, 2016, 08:11:55 PM
Recently, we had the exact same discussion during an SLS held by our Group. Two of the instructors were ex-USAF who came in to CAP for various reasons. Both of them stated emphatically that they did NOT accept their USAF rank right away and were very glad that they did not because it allowed them the time to see how CAP differs from USAF. One of our students is a new SM (all of two months) who retired from the Air Force after 30 years, finishing as a Colonel. During the interactive sessions he was constantly asking very good questions and commented on the fact that his Air Force career (which included a few stints as a Wing and Squadron Commander) and experiences were so very different than what CAP does that he wonders how we manage to accomplish all that we do?

Bottom line - It's much better to come in as an SM and work you way up - at least for the first year or two - before asking / receiving the advanced grade that you are eligible for.

After a crap-ton of years of membership in CAP, and watching former military folks join CAP, both officer and enlisted, I have found that very few of them are ready to:

QuoteA former O6 could very easily take over multiple CAP programs @ the SQN or Group level and run them.
CAP regs and pams are pretty thin.
Teaching cadet stuff, to a field grade officer, should be very very very simple and a light lift.
A War College grad should be able, with minimal front-load, to do SQN-level professional development for seniors too.

right out of the chute. Most people need about six months to assimilate the CAP culture, and differentiate between the paid, captive audience of the military, and the volunteer nature of CAP.

Quote from: SarDragon on September 23, 2016, 05:44:24 AM
After a crap-ton of years of membership in CAP, and watching former military folks join CAP, both officer and enlisted, I have found that very few of them are ready to:

QuoteA former O6 could very easily take over multiple CAP programs @ the SQN or Group level and run them.
CAP regs and pams are pretty thin.
Teaching cadet stuff, to a field grade officer, should be very very very simple and a light lift.
A War College grad should be able, with minimal front-load, to do SQN-level professional development for seniors too.

right out of the chute. Most people need about six months to assimilate the CAP culture, and differentiate between the paid, captive audience of the military, and the volunteer nature of CAP.

Kinda the same deal when someone transitions from Active Duty to the Guard or Reserve. Totally different world that usually requires about a six month or so transition period.

The learning of CAP culture and adapting to it is the primary reason that the Chaplain Corps did away with promotions via the "Special Recognition Program" back in the early-mid '00s.  To promote to Lt Col was just a matter of reading/testing on 2 pamphlets and breathing for a number of years.   Now there is an initial appointment at a grade commensurate with their academic training/professional standing -- and all other promotions take place as the requirements in the Senior Member Professional Development Training Program are met.  A specialty track was approved in 2011 that includes participation in all the missions for the 221 ratings.   It is a transition for most civilian members of the clergy to make from local ministry assignments to CAP. 

I would agree it takes at least 6 months for anyone to become accustomed to a new job, office culture, and
the ancillary issues involved.

6 full-time months is 960 work hours.

At 3 hours a week, being benevolent for the typical CAP unit meeting, that's 6 years.

Even cutting that by 2/rds for the harder core, that's still 2+ years, which in my experience
is about how long it takes for people who are motivated to become contributing, independently-able CAP members,
military, Ph d, MD, or other.

There are always edge cases in either way, but this is the average.

For those inclined to disagree, what, specifically, beyond uniform wear and courtesies, maybe drill, do those with military
experience bring to the table that the average reasonably-educated adult professional doesn't also bring that makes them uniquely
qualified as the "saviors of CAP" they are purported to be?

Quote from: Eclipse on September 23, 2016, 05:36:50 PMFor those inclined to disagree, what, specifically, beyond uniform wear and courtesies, maybe drill, do those with military
experience bring to the table that the average reasonably-educated adult professional doesn't also bring that makes them uniquely
qualified as the "saviors of CAP" they are purported to be?

Not necessarily disagreeing, since I'm on the "not so fast" bandwagon, I'll answer the basic Q.

These former military folks have varying levels of experience at:
The military hierarchy style in general, including chain-of-command.
Leading and managing people and resources according to that style.

I didn't see nearly as much of that when I was in a civilian job, even when 2/3 of the company was staffed with ex-military people.

The problem is, I can't just force my AEO to keep his job if he doesn't want to anymore.

Quote from: SarDragon on September 23, 2016, 08:19:03 PM

Quote from: Eclipse on September 23, 2016, 05:36:50 PMFor those inclined to disagree, what, specifically, beyond uniform wear and courtesies, maybe drill, do those with military
experience bring to the table that the average reasonably-educated adult professional doesn't also bring that makes them uniquely
qualified as the "saviors of CAP" they are purported to be?

Not necessarily disagreeing, since I'm on the "not so fast" bandwagon, I'll answer the basic Q.

These former military folks have varying levels of experience at:
The military hierarchy style in general, including chain-of-command.
Leading and managing people and resources according to that style.

I didn't see nearly as much of that when I was in a civilian job, even when 2/3 of the company was staffed with ex-military people.

I would say that's the general idea, but in response to that, we all know CAP ignores the chain probably twice
as much as it adheres to it, and these days everybody feels "empowered" and "equal", and that's where some
of the challenges come in for those expecting CAP to semi-replicate their military experience.

No ability to compel.

Rarely are there ramifications for failure to perform, failure to participate, or even negligence.

Little to no input or management from higher HQ (unless there's poop to run down the hill).

And everyone is self-motivated and self-actualized.

As I've said a million times, the single biggest problem is the utter lack of baseline training and expectations.
Sure, there are lax units in the military, people in the same office group ignore courtesies, yada, yada, but
ultimately, on the mean, everyone doing a given job has had the same BMT, Tech Schools, or advanced training,
so everyone has a baseline to fallback on.

That's obviously not the case in CAP, even a little.  Heck, CAP doesn't even require Level 1 to fly an airplane,
and the "level" of "1" varies from "did you watch the video" to "seniors learning drill".

Some Maj with a career comes in, sees a bunch of guys in blue and thinks "well, we all have something in common"..
then...well CAP happens.

Separate but related thought.

My buddy was a Loadmaster out of ORD back in the '90s.  His day-to-day experience as a
reservist sounded very much like the day-to-day life of a CAP member.

Though he was enlisted, the rest of the crew were officers and grade wasn't really a "thing"
anyone cared about - everyone had their jobs, did them, and then at night you hit a bar.
People's "real" jobs were anything from cops to warehouse workers and in between - just because
someone pins an oak on your shoulder on the weekends doesn't mean you aren't asking if people
"want fries with that" on Monday.

They lived in flight suits, and like so many others in the USAF, so rarely wore anything but
that or BDUs they usually didn't even have a set of blues that fit.

Etc., etc...

But...

It took him 18 months of BMT, Tech schools & SERE, not to mention months of flying as a trainee
and a couple of deployments before he got to that level, and of course he was always one mishap, one
bad OPR, or one base closure form getting RIF'ed.

He also, of course, signed the check that the POTUS can cash at any time, changing his life, or
possibly ending it for the cause.

In CAP we hand people the keys to the kingdom before they are even background-checked, and appoint unit CCs
with zero leadership experience or any prior anything related, and the only check people write is the literal
one at membership time each year.  Commitment? "Dude, there's on game on Sunday. I'll swing by if it's not into OT..."

It's a wonder anyone with prior service even comes back for the second meeting.

Quote from: EclipseHeck, CAP doesn't even require Level 1 to fly an airplane, and the "level" of "1" varies from "did you watch the video" to "seniors learning drill".

Well, this is kind of obscure, but...

Quote from: CAPR 52-17CHAPTER 3 - LEVEL I, ORIENTATION
3-1. Participation. CAP requires senior members to complete Level I training prior to receiving any assigned duty position in the unit, directly supervising cadets on their own, being allowed to wear the Air Force-style CAP uniform, becoming eligible for promotion, or enrolling in AU A4/6 courses.

It isn't much, and seems incomplete, but it looks like the basic intent is for all SMs to complete Level I prior to participating in anything else.

Quote from: SarDragon on September 23, 2016, 11:55:15 PM

Quote from: CAPR 52-17CHAPTER 3 - LEVEL I, ORIENTATION
3-1. Participation. CAP requires senior members to complete Level I training prior to receiving any assigned duty position in the unit, directly supervising cadets on their own, being allowed to wear the Air Force-style CAP uniform, becoming eligible for promotion, or enrolling in AU A4/6 courses.

It isn't much, and seems incomplete, but it looks like the basic intent is for all SMs to complete Level I prior to participating in anything else.

I agree, however NHQ and the Ops Directorate do not.

I also made the point that it was physically impossible to be the POC of an aircraft with cadets on board and not be "directly supervising cadets on their own",
but was told that to encourage pilot retention, the situation would remain as is.

Quote from: Eclipse on September 23, 2016, 10:32:52 PM
Separate but related thought.

My buddy was a Loadmaster out of ORD back in the '90s.  His day-to-day experience as a
reservist sounded very much like the day-to-day life of a CAP member.

Though he was enlisted, the rest of the crew were officers and grade wasn't really a "thing"
anyone cared about - everyone had their jobs, did them, and then at night you hit a bar.
People's "real" jobs were anything from cops to warehouse workers and in between - just because
someone pins an oak on your shoulder on the weekends doesn't mean you aren't asking if people
"want fries with that" on Monday.

They lived in flight suits, and like so many others in the USAF, so rarely wore anything but
that or BDUs they usually didn't even have a set of blues that fit.

Etc., etc...

But...

It took him 18 months of BMT, Tech schools & SERE, not to mention months of flying as a trainee
and a couple of deployments before he got to that level, and of course he was always one mishap, one
bad OPR, or one base closure form getting RIF'ed.

He also, of course, signed the check that the POTUS can cash at any time, changing his life, or
possibly ending it for the cause.

In CAP we hand people the keys to the kingdom before they are even background-checked, and appoint unit CCs
with zero leadership experience or any prior anything related, and the only check people write is the literal
one at membership time each year.  Commitment? "Dude, there's on game on Sunday. I'll swing by if it's not into OT..."

It's a wonder anyone with prior service even comes back for the second meeting.

That's strong, Eclipse. Strong.

But it's also true. We indeed hand units to new commanders with bupkus for leadership or management ability. They're just ambulatory and willing, many times.

We don't train and cultivate adult leaders. Many times, we just develop political hacks who can schmooze and make the numbers look decent.

I took Squadron Officer School instead of RSC because I knew darned well I'd learn something at SOS. After nine years as a cadet and (at the time) almost 20 as a s'member, there was nothing new CAP could teach me about leadership. And after taking SOS, I tell anyone who'll listen that the things you get in SOS will mean more than you'd ever get in a week of RSC. Many of the lessons you get in SOS should be given as part of CAP's Level I, and the rest should be in the first part of Level II.

A butterbar shouldn't be issued just because someone passed an FBI background check and cleared Level I, which is a cakewalk for all but the eunuchs among us, and we probably help the eunuchs too much. Heck, the other day, I realized a mouthbreather somehow made major here in the Tampa Bay area, and I once saw the guy with my own two eyes FAIL AN OPEN-BOOK ICS 400 TEST. You heard me — THIS GUY COULDN'T PASS AN OPEN-BOOK TEST AND SOMEHOW WAS PROMOTED TO MAJOR IN FLORIDA WING!

So how do people get promoted, again?

Quote from: Spam on September 19, 2016, 12:53:37 AM

Quote from: BHartman007 on September 18, 2016, 10:34:33 PM

Quote from: Garibaldi on January 31, 2016, 01:50:06 AM
...He's supposed to be semi-active out in Colorado or something, waiting for another chance to go up.

He's in Houston, and very active. Should be going up in the next couple of years.

Yeah, good guy, remembered fondly here in ATL. He participated in the KSC/CCAFS cadet special activity this summer - he had s'mores on the beach Friday night with the cadets.  My oldest son was one of the cadet participants - he is jazzed about following me into a career in aerospace, returned to school with a vengeance, and was inducted into NHS today. Imagine, if you were a science/technology minded cadet, if a former cadet now turned astronaut showed up to have snacks on the beach with you after a week of motivation to study hard, stay on school, challenge the science and math, and be a productive citizen and taxpayer.

Nice, huh?

I honestly believe that former cadets have an inherent mission to give something back to those younger brothers and sisters behind us; COL Boe is right up there doing that. Semper Vigilans.


V/R
Spam

I didn't know he did that, pretty cool. He has some amazing stories. Giving back to the program is the whole reason he's still in. Neither of his kids are active anymore (only one is even a member), but he's still there every week that he's not out NASAing somewhere. I still can't get him to take me up in a jet, though. For some reason he doesn't think NASA will see joyriding as a good use of a T38. I say if he's going to fly anyway, and the back seat will just be empty...

Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on September 25, 2016, 02:16:08 AM

Quote from: Eclipse on September 23, 2016, 10:32:52 PM
Separate but related thought.

My buddy was a Loadmaster out of ORD back in the '90s.  His day-to-day experience as a
reservist sounded very much like the day-to-day life of a CAP member.

Though he was enlisted, the rest of the crew were officers and grade wasn't really a "thing"
anyone cared about - everyone had their jobs, did them, and then at night you hit a bar.
People's "real" jobs were anything from cops to warehouse workers and in between - just because
someone pins an oak on your shoulder on the weekends doesn't mean you aren't asking if people
"want fries with that" on Monday.

They lived in flight suits, and like so many others in the USAF, so rarely wore anything but
that or BDUs they usually didn't even have a set of blues that fit.

Etc., etc...

But...

It took him 18 months of BMT, Tech schools & SERE, not to mention months of flying as a trainee
and a couple of deployments before he got to that level, and of course he was always one mishap, one
bad OPR, or one base closure form getting RIF'ed.

He also, of course, signed the check that the POTUS can cash at any time, changing his life, or
possibly ending it for the cause.

In CAP we hand people the keys to the kingdom before they are even background-checked, and appoint unit CCs
with zero leadership experience or any prior anything related, and the only check people write is the literal
one at membership time each year.  Commitment? "Dude, there's on game on Sunday. I'll swing by if it's not into OT..."

It's a wonder anyone with prior service even comes back for the second meeting.

That's strong, Eclipse. Strong.

But it's also true. We indeed hand units to new commanders with bupkus for leadership or management ability. They're just ambulatory and willing, many times.

We don't train and cultivate adult leaders. Many times, we just develop political hacks who can schmooze and make the numbers look decent.

I took Squadron Officer School instead of RSC because I knew darned well I'd learn something at SOS. After nine years as a cadet and (at the time) almost 20 as a s'member, there was nothing new CAP could teach me about leadership. And after taking SOS, I tell anyone who'll listen that the things you get in SOS will mean more than you'd ever get in a week of RSC. Many of the lessons you get in SOS should be given as part of CAP's Level I, and the rest should be in the first part of Level II.

A butterbar shouldn't be issued just because someone passed an FBI background check and cleared Level I, which is a cakewalk for all but the eunuchs among us, and we probably help the eunuchs too much. Heck, the other day, I realized a mouthbreather somehow made major here in the Tampa Bay area, and I once saw the guy with my own two eyes FAIL AN OPEN-BOOK ICS 400 TEST. You heard me — THIS GUY COULDN'T PASS AN OPEN-BOOK TEST AND SOMEHOW WAS PROMOTED TO MAJOR IN FLORIDA WING!

So how do people get promoted, again?

If you are using the ability to pass an open book test as a measure of intelligence, I feel for you.  I am a licensed customs broker, which means that I am allowed to sign on behalf of another on the import of goods into the US.  Its a license issued by the Department of Homeland Security, it is an open book test but on average the pass rate is between 5 and 15%.

Quote from: Alaric on September 26, 2016, 01:21:22 PM

Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on September 25, 2016, 02:16:08 AM
A butterbar shouldn't be issued just because someone passed an FBI background check and cleared Level I, which is a cakewalk for all but the eunuchs among us, and we probably help the eunuchs too much. Heck, the other day, I realized a mouthbreather somehow made major here in the Tampa Bay area, and I once saw the guy with my own two eyes FAIL AN OPEN-BOOK ICS 400 TEST. You heard me — THIS GUY COULDN'T PASS AN OPEN-BOOK TEST AND SOMEHOW WAS PROMOTED TO MAJOR IN FLORIDA WING!

So how do people get promoted, again?

If you are using the ability to pass an open book test as a measure of intelligence, I feel for you.  I am a licensed customs broker, which means that I am allowed to sign on behalf of another on the import of goods into the US.  Its a license issued by the Department of Homeland Security, it is an open book test but on average the pass rate is between 5 and 15%.

Though I'm sure that because of customs laws and the ins and outs of bureaucracy, that test is necessarily difficult. ICS 400, I'd venture, is a cakewalk by comparison, though certainly more difficult than an SLS to finish.