I know there's been talk of officers and cadets not being able to receive coverage if they are out of uniform. Does anyone know the regulations on this? I've never seen any regs regarding this issue, but would like to know if there are any for future reference.
Quote from: 12211985 on April 03, 2007, 09:07:53 PM
I know there's been talk of officers and cadets not being able to receive coverage if they are out of uniform. Does anyone know the regulations on this? I've never seen any regs regarding this issue, but would like to know if there are any for future reference.
Start with the 60- series that define our ES operations. You will notice in most cases that "proper uniform" is generally one of the first pieces of "equipment" listed, although in some cases, such as the orange vest for ground ops, the vest is now a uniform part as well (new 39-1).
The rest is conjecture, implication, or projection.
Scuttle here and other places indicates that no one in CAP has ever been sued successfully based on the fact that they were in not in a uniform, or their uniform was incorrect.
I, for one, do not intend to be a test case...
Bob:
There was a case in Indiana where a CAP member dispatched a CAP airplane for a "Proficiency flight" and while making low, high-bank turns over his house, stalled and crashed. He was wearing, according to the autopsy report, a flannel shirt and blue jeans.
It is my understanding that his death benefit was NOT paid to the family, but neither was his estate sued for the loss of the airplane.
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on April 03, 2007, 09:45:07 PM
Bob:
There was a case in Indiana where a CAP member dispatched a CAP airplane for a "Proficiency flight" and while making low, high-bank turns over his house, stalled and crashed. He was wearing, according to the autopsy report, a flannel shirt and blue jeans.
It is my understanding that his death benefit was NOT paid to the family, but neither was his estate sued for the loss of the airplane.
I can't imagine CAP going after someone's estate unless regs were seriously violated, such as not getting a flight release or not having had a CAPF 5 check ride.
Quote from: Eclipse on April 03, 2007, 09:26:51 PM
Quote from: 12211985 on April 03, 2007, 09:07:53 PM
I know there's been talk of officers and cadets not being able to receive coverage if they are out of uniform. Does anyone know the regulations on this? I've never seen any regs regarding this issue, but would like to know if there are any for future reference.
Start with the 60- series that define our ES operations. You will notice in most cases that "proper uniform" is generally one of the first pieces of "equipment" listed, although in some cases, such as the orange vest for ground ops, the vest is now a uniform part as well (new 39-1).
The rest is conjecture, implication, or projection.
Scuttle here and other places indicates that no one in CAP has ever been sued successfully based on the fact that they were in not in a uniform, or their uniform was incorrect.
I, for one, do not intend to be a test case...
I remember a note sent to me as the cadet squadron commander stating that CAP Legal had said they would not sign off on any insurance claim where the member was not wearing a CAP uniform. So this is policy as far as I know....I have not heard of anyone not being convered...but I don't think we have ever had a major accident in the last couple of years where it has come up.
Quote from: Eclipse on April 03, 2007, 09:26:51 PMScuttle here and other places indicates that no one in CAP has ever been sued successfully based on the fact that they were in not in a uniform, or their uniform was incorrect.
Why would anyone want to sue a CAP member for either being in the wrong uniform, or being in the wrong uniform altogether? That would seem to be a little ridiculous (and extreme). What would be the basis for a lawsuit?
Failure to follow procedures.
I think it is an option kept in reserve so when CAP tells the family "Sorry, no death benefits because they were not in uniform", CAP has it for the lawyers the family might hire to get the death benefits.
Quote from: arajca on April 04, 2007, 02:16:25 AM
Failure to follow procedures.
I think it is an option kept in reserve so when CAP tells the family "Sorry, no death benefits because they were not in uniform", CAP has it for the lawyers the family might hire to get the death benefits.
All liability insurance policies are priced according to what exposure is anticipated while operating under the rules. For instance, if you allow memebrs to carry firearms, the policy may cost a 100k, but if you make a reg that says no guns then it costs 75k. It is standard policy for all insurance providers on such policies to require that the individual(s) be in full compliance with ALL regulations. While being in uniform or not certainly SHOULD not bear on teh car you just ran into, it is an out the company can take to avoid having to pay. And ultimately that's what insurance companies are about is charging more than they have to pay out. They can & will deny coverage in any and cases they can get away with it, no matter how technical or weaslly the method. Under federal liability protection (AFAM) they are a little nicer, but not much.
IIRC...the policy on non payment of insurance only applied to flight activities. If you are going to fly you must be in uniform or you run the risk of not getting paid death benifits. I recall this because they had to make special allowance for the "glider uniform" (shorts and a t-shirt) around the same time. If you are at a CAP meeting in civilian cloths and the building explodes....I don't think the uniform policy applies.
I may be wrong.
Quote from: lordmonar on April 04, 2007, 05:13:23 AM
IIRC...the policy on non payment of insurance only applied to flight activities. If you are going to fly you must be in uniform or you run the risk of not getting paid death benifits. I recall this because they had to make special allowance for the "glider uniform" (shorts and a t-shirt) around the same time. If you are at a CAP meeting in civilian cloths and the building explodes....I don't think the uniform policy applies.
I may be wrong.
They make a big deal out of flight activity because that's obviously the greatest exposure & actual number of claims, but it does apply all the time including at meetings.
Now if you were at a meeting in civilian cloths & the bldg exploded, you'd be covered same as my homeowners policy would pay if you slipped on ice in my driveway. CAP is responsible for the facility & therefor what happens to people in it. NOTE: Just trying to use a clear example, if someone else is responsible for your meeting area/bldg then it'll get dicey with both sides trying to make the other pay.
What happens is when YOU are violating ANY rules then they can deny coverage for YOUR actions regardless of those being right or wrong. Not wearing a uniform when the rules say you are supposed to is to the company the same thing as if you knowingly take a plane w/ an expired fm5 & no flight release then break flight rules & rip the wings off. It's just how they weasle out of paying what they should, and it puts it back on members to live & die by the rules (pardon the pun).
This may seem like an odd question, but if a CAP member - in uniform - is killed on an AFAM, does that member recieve a "military" burial or a "veterans plaque" at the gravesite?
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on April 04, 2007, 10:56:10 AM
This may seem like an odd question, but if a CAP member - in uniform - is killed on an AFAM, does that member recieve a "military" burial or a "veterans plaque" at the gravesite?
Only if they've performed prior service in the Armed Forces or are currently serving. CAP members do not get VA bennies.
Quote from: AlphaSigOU on April 04, 2007, 11:39:15 AM
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on April 04, 2007, 10:56:10 AM
This may seem like an odd question, but if a CAP member - in uniform - is killed on an AFAM, does that member recieve a "military" burial or a "veterans plaque" at the gravesite?
Only if they've performed prior service in the Armed Forces or are currently serving. CAP members do not get VA bennies.
Too bad, as we would be Air Force Aux on those Missions.
Quote from: RogueLeader on April 04, 2007, 05:19:39 PM
Quote from: AlphaSigOU on April 04, 2007, 11:39:15 AM
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on April 04, 2007, 10:56:10 AM
This may seem like an odd question, but if a CAP member - in uniform - is killed on an AFAM, does that member recieve a "military" burial or a "veterans plaque" at the gravesite?
Only if they've performed prior service in the Armed Forces or are currently serving. CAP members do not get VA bennies.
Too bad, as we would be Air Force Aux on those Missions.
Being the USAF-AUX does not make you a "Veteran". If you die on a AFAM you get all the USAF death benifits (at something like a Lt Col's Pay Grade!) but you don't get any VA benifits. "Military funerals" are a benifit of the service...so you certainly have a CAP funeral.
Is it LtCol level? I thought it was just GS6 or 9 something like that, which is entry level (and civilian employee). Far as mil funerals, you don't have a right to that, and the mil won't pay for it. They have volunteer orgs running around doing that stuff cause they can't provide full honors to every vetran now. However, a CAP cadet honor guard or the state air guard could be arranged here if the family wanted it.
Quote from: lordmonar on April 04, 2007, 06:10:55 PM
(at something like a Lt Col's Pay Grade!)
Wow, I figured it would be the equivalent of your CAP grade
Quote from: RogueLeader on April 04, 2007, 06:47:21 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on April 04, 2007, 06:10:55 PM
(at something like a Lt Col's Pay Grade!)
Wow, I figured it would be the equivalent of your CAP grade
A CAP Funeral?
What's that?
A box, a flag, and an e-tool?
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on April 04, 2007, 07:21:11 PM
Quote from: RogueLeader on April 04, 2007, 06:47:21 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on April 04, 2007, 06:10:55 PM
(at something like a Lt Col's Pay Grade!)
Wow, I figured it would be the equivalent of your CAP grade
A CAP Funeral?
What's that?
A box, a flag, and an e-tool?
That would be great, IF it went along with the Death benifits.
Hell Heck, even without the DB, it'd still get your money's worth from Dues.
Keep in mind that CAP senior members are only required to wear uniforms in certain situations and if you happened to get killed in a situation where no uniform was required, it wouldn't be an issue.
Still a little curious as to what a "CAP Funeral" is.
A funeral where a bunch of CAP members show up in uniform? Or maybe with a CAP honor guard rendering military honors. There is no such thing as a CAP funeral.
I've been to a CAP Funeral. In it the pallbearers were all CAP senior members, the service was performed by a CAP Chaplain, and a Cadet Honor Guard performed. Taps was played by a cadet from a high school band. While there is no such thing as an "official" CAP Funeral. Squadrons can perform what would be the equivlant of a military funeral with the relatives approval or request on a voluntary basis. No CAP regulation authorizes a CAP funeral or prohibits it.