This morning I saw the Marine Detail on Marine 1 saluting the first lady......Is this correct? Question 2: The President returns ( sometimes) the salutes of military personnel. which in my opinion as COC, he is entitled to do ( although we need to detail a Cadet to him to teach him how to do it properly) So why does he (now, but not in the past, when he just stood around ) place his hand over his heart during the National Anthem and presentation of the Colors? Is he fish or fowl? Does the new law allow the rendering of the military hand salute by veterans and AD members of the RM out of uniform apply to the POTUS?
Major Lord
Since Mrs Obama is not in the Chain of Command or an officer of any branch, she shouldn't be receiving a salute.
Her Protocol Officer should acquaint her with the seriousness of trolling for salutes on an Air Force Base! >:D
Saluting as required by normal customs and courtesies (ex: saluting your superiors) is not the same as saluting standards as according to flag code.
Example, when I was in NROTC, we were fully expected to salute our Skipper whenever we saw him, no matter if he was in uniform or not. To which he would return a salute. But I have no doubt in my mind that if he went to a ball game out of uniform, and they played the national anthem, his hand would be over his heart, just as mine would be if I was in civvies.
The major difference between the two is that while there is an established method of honoring the flag in civilian attire, there isn't one in day to day customs and courtesies.
As per saluting Mrs. Obama?
-No idea, the Marines on that detail may have standing orders of their own, to which only they will be able to answer satisfactorily.
As for her being outside of the chain of command? One could argue that she's really at the top ;), or compare it to saluting foreign officers, dignitaries.
A salute is always correct.
NOT saluteing when you are required to by law, regulation or custom is where the problem is.
We don't mind if we get saluted and we are civilians.
There is nothing at all that requires the President to render or return salutes. Ronald Reagan was the first President to return a salute as Commander in Chief. I have seen all of the Presidents since Reagan do it. There are also many times when the havn't returned them.
Why they are saluting Michelle, I have no idea. They never saluted any of the other first ladies.
Was Michelle getting on (or) off Marine 1 by herself alone? I didnt think it was ever used to just transport the spouse around. If the President wasnt on then it wasnt Marine 1. It was just a Marine Helicopter >:D In that case, I can think of a lot smaller helo's HMX has at its disposal for VIP flights other than an H3 Sea King.
Quote from: Flying Pig on June 11, 2011, 03:40:27 PM
If the President wasnt on then it wasnt Marine 1. It was just a Marine Helicopter >:D In that case, I can think of a lot smaller helo's HMX has at its disposal for VIP flights other than an H3 Sea King.
Actually it wouldn't just be a Marine helicopter. If memory serves, the designation EXEC F1 is used for an aircraft carrying the First Lady.
Quote from: Flying Pig on June 11, 2011, 03:40:27 PM
Why they are saluting Michelle, I have no idea. They never saluted any of the other first ladies.
IF I remember correctly both the President's & Vice President's spouses have taken a keen interest in the welfare of military families. Perhaps it's a sign of respect for her role.
See this link for further information: http://www.whitehouse.gov/joiningforces
RM
Well, maybe, except they didnt salute Laura Bush or Barbara Bush. Both wives of wartime Presidents. Laura Bush was always visiting military families. Then again, maybe the Marine just got confused and whipped one out by mistake! ;D
Quote from: Flying Pig on June 11, 2011, 04:11:18 PM
Well, maybe, except they didnt salute Laura Bush or Barbara Bush. Both wives of wartime Presidents. Laura Bush was always visiting military families. Then again, maybe the Marine just got confused and whipped one out by mistake! ;D
I would hope that this doesn't become political with some of you. The website is there and you can evaluate for yourself the good that they are trying to do.
RM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on June 11, 2011, 04:44:03 PM
I would hope that this doesn't become political with some of you. The website is there and you can evaluate for yourself the good that they are trying to do.
RM
Agreed on that one.
There is absolutely nothing amiss with saluting Mrs Obama.
I don't believe that military personnel, except for ARNG/ANG and SDF's, are required to salute State Governors, but it wouldn't be amiss to do so.
Saluting varies from country to country. Canadian troops do not salute the Prime Minister; that is reserved for the Queen, other members of the Royal Family and the Governor-General. However, when the President visits Ottawa, they salute him.
Quote from: CyBorg on June 11, 2011, 05:47:57 PM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on June 11, 2011, 04:44:03 PM
I would hope that this doesn't become political with some of you. The website is there and you can evaluate for yourself the good that they are trying to do.
RM
Agreed on that one.
There is absolutely nothing amiss with saluting Mrs Obama.
I don't believe that military personnel, except for ARNG/ANG and SDF's, are required to salute State Governors, but it wouldn't be amiss to do so.
Saluting varies from country to country. Canadian troops do not salute the Prime Minister; that is reserved for the Queen, other members of the Royal Family and the Governor-General. However, when the President visits Ottawa, they salute him.
That's because the Prime Minister is NOT the Head of Government in Canada. The Queen is.
The Governor-General is the Queen's personal representative to the Government of Canada.
You have confused the Head of the Government, who is the Prime Minister, with the Head of State, who is the Queen and represented by the Governor General.
Quote from: KT on June 11, 2011, 02:48:00 PM
We don't mind if we get saluted and we are civilians.
:clap:
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on June 11, 2011, 04:44:03 PM
Quote from: Flying Pig on June 11, 2011, 04:11:18 PM
Well, maybe, except they didnt salute Laura Bush or Barbara Bush. Both wives of wartime Presidents. Laura Bush was always visiting military families. Then again, maybe the Marine just got confused and whipped one out by mistake! ;D
I would hope that this doesn't become political with some of you. The website is there and you can evaluate for yourself the good that they are trying to do.
RM
How is my statement political? Your the one who brought up the fact that a wartime first lady may be saluted out of respect. Im stating that has not been the case in the past. Heck, you can even throw Hillary in the mix. Bill launched a few missiles into the desert, and she never got saluted either.
By Cyborg
There is absolutely nothing amiss with saluting Mrs Obama.Well, there is something "amiss" because first ladies arent saluted. Nothing political. Just curious at why it is now the case.
As far as I am concerned, saluting Mrs. Obama is the same as saluting just anyone you see at, say, the store. She is not in the chain of command, and therefore should not have received a salute. If there is anyone who has evidence to suggest I am wrong, I would love to see it- I myself am rather confused about this too.
A salute is a greeting, no more, no less. It is a bit more formal that other greetings, but still just a greeting. I can easily equate with tipping one's hat, if I were wearing a hat. I frequently use a saluting type gesture with friends, particularly if they've been in the military, and "get it".
As for saluting a First Lady, I see nothing wrong with it. Does she "deserve" one? In a strict military context, no. Is it hurting any thing/body to do it? No. Is it disrespecting anyone? No.
YMMV.
Quote from: SarDragon on June 11, 2011, 09:18:00 PM
A salute is a greeting, no more, no less. It is a bit more formal that other greetings, but still just a greeting. I can easily equate with tipping one's hat, if I were wearing a hat. I frequently use a saluting type gesture with friends, particularly if they've been in the military, and "get it".
As for saluting a First Lady, I see nothing wrong with it. Does she "deserve" one? In a strict military context, no. Is it hurting any thing/body to do it? No. Is it disrespecting anyone? No.
YMMV.
Besides, which one of you heroes wants to tell those Marines that they screwed up by saluting the First Lady? :o
Quote from: SarDragon on June 11, 2011, 09:18:00 PM
A salute is a greeting, no more, no less. It is a bit more formal that other greetings, but still just a greeting. I can easily equate with tipping one's hat, if I were wearing a hat. I frequently use a saluting type gesture with friends, particularly if they've been in the military, and "get it".
As for saluting a First Lady, I see nothing wrong with it. Does she "deserve" one? In a strict military context, no. Is it hurting any thing/body to do it? No. Is it disrespecting anyone? No.
YMMV.
I could not disagree more. A military style salute is not the same as cheerleader wave or a peppy thumbs-up. It is an exchange of courtesy reserved by tradition for those in the profession or arms, and extended to a select few outside that group ( CAP, BSA, Etc.) Its a privilege paid for in blood, not a "high 5" for your home boys. As to whether or not its appropriate to salute the commander in chiefs' spouse, that is a separate question. I personally would not. ( Even one of the good ones, like Laura Bush, or Pat Nixon) This is not to say that I would not treat treat any of the First Ladies ( And we might have a "First Man" the next time around, you never know) with the utmost courtesy.
Major Lord
Quote from: PHall on June 11, 2011, 10:39:36 PM
Quote from: SarDragon on June 11, 2011, 09:18:00 PM
A salute is a greeting, no more, no less. It is a bit more formal that other greetings, but still just a greeting. I can easily equate with tipping one's hat, if I were wearing a hat. I frequently use a saluting type gesture with friends, particularly if they've been in the military, and "get it".
As for saluting a First Lady, I see nothing wrong with it. Does she "deserve" one? In a strict military context, no. Is it hurting any thing/body to do it? No. Is it disrespecting anyone? No.
YMMV.
Besides, which one of you heroes wants to tell those Marines that they screwed up by saluting the First Lady? :o
They were probably ordered to....
Major Lord
You need to cut back on the Kool-Aid, Alan.
QuoteIt is an exchange of courtesy reserved by tradition for those in the profession or arms, and extended to a select few outside that group ( CAP, BSA, Etc.)
Reserved? Really? Where does it say that? Tradition frequently blurs practicality and reality.
QuoteIts a privilege paid for in blood, not a "high 5" for your home boys.
Privilege? How are you, or anyone else, going to revoke it, if I decide to render a salute to someone you don't approve of?
My first formal education to saluting was as a CAP cadet, in 1964, from the then current Phase 1 materials. It was described as a gesture made by armored knight - raising the visor with the right (weapon) hand - to show the knight's face, and friendliness by not reaching for a weapon. Later, it became more formal, and evolved into what we have today.
In the military (21 yrs, USN) and CAP, I salute(d) because the rules require it. I have no problem with that, and usually do so willingly. (There has been a small number of officers that I have so little respect for as individuals that I saluted only because of the rules.)
Out of uniform, I offer a salute because I want to, as the greeting and show of respect that it is. It might be exactly as snappy as I would render in uniform, but there's no mistaking what it is and why I did it.
I guess we see things differently.
It looks like this whole thing is a hoax cooked up by the VRWC. :o
The conservative (and other extreme) discussion boards have been discussing this topic with varying degrees of horror for days.
This one, Rebellion University WTF First Lady Now In Chain Of Command (http://rebeluniv.blogspot.com/2011/06/wtf-first-lady-now-in-chain-of-command.html), is very typical of the hoax, including the misleading picture that started it all. Notice the blogger updated his post with this comment:
QuoteUPDATE: This is indeed a file picture and the President of the USA is ahead of Mrs O, just out of the frame.
He had to do that when one of the replies linked to this picture (http://mrs-o.org/newdata/2011/5/26/leaving-london.html).
So how does it feel to have been 'had' (again).
Quote from: PHall on June 11, 2011, 10:39:36 PM
Quote from: SarDragon on June 11, 2011, 09:18:00 PM
A salute is a greeting, no more, no less. It is a bit more formal that other greetings, but still just a greeting. I can easily equate with tipping one's hat, if I were wearing a hat. I frequently use a saluting type gesture with friends, particularly if they've been in the military, and "get it".
As for saluting a First Lady, I see nothing wrong with it. Does she "deserve" one? In a strict military context, no. Is it hurting any thing/body to do it? No. Is it disrespecting anyone? No.
YMMV.
Besides, which one of you heroes wants to tell those Marines that they screwed up by saluting the First Lady? :o
I would tell them. I used to tell Marines they were screwing up all the time >:D By the way....is there a photo or video clip regarding what we are actually discussing?
Point for point.
There is no REQUIRMENT either in the regulations or by tradition to salute the First Lady.
But there is also no BAR to do so in either regulation or tradition.
If fact right here on the board we have heard many a time "If in doubt, whip it out."
I was taught that POTUS is the only civilian who gets a salute....but I have seem many people salute SECDEF and the SECAF.
I my self have salute people who have not rated it....on purpose!
I guess we are all going to hell!
Pat - once again, you "get it".
Quote from: RRLE on June 11, 2011, 07:31:53 PM
You have confused the Head of the Government, who is the Prime Minister, with the Head of State, who is the Queen and represented by the Governor General.
Correct.
The situation is the same in Australia, New Zealand, Jamaica, Tuvalu, Papua New Guinea, Antigua and Barbuda, The Bahamas, Barbados, Belize, Grenada, Saint Kitts and Nevis, Saint Lucia, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, and the Solomon Islands.
It's slightly different in Britain itself, since there is no vice-regal representative.
When one of the Royals visit here, it is usually in their capacity as the Royal Family of Canada.
Prince Charles holds the rank of Lieutenant-General in the Canadian Army:
(http://www3.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Prince+Wales+Duchess+Cornwall+Visit+Canada+NtjooJ6SkHel.jpg)
Therefore, we would salute him not as Royalty, but as a general officer in an allied military.
There would be nothing more wrong with that than the Marine saluting Mrs Obama.
Would any of you disputing this be so churlish as to tell the First Lady "I don't have to salute you and I'm not going to?"
Quote from: CyBorg on June 12, 2011, 02:46:27 AM
Therefore, we would salute him not as Royalty, but as a general officer in an allied military.
There would be nothing more wrong with that than the Marine saluting Mrs Obama.
Would any of you disputing this be so churlish as to tell the First Lady "I don't have to salute you and I'm not going to?"
Yes I would if she were to demand one. A Marine is required to salute a senior ranking allied officer though...
Quote from: davidsinn on June 12, 2011, 02:52:36 AMYes I would if she were to demand one. A Marine is required to salute a senior ranking allied officer though...
I'd be willing to wager that some protocol person has filled in Mrs. Obama on salutes.
And how many of you will say that this is wrong?
(http://iconicphotos.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/amex3yearoldjfkjrsalutes.jpg?w=700&h=467)
That's
exactly what salutes are all about!
Quote from: SarDragon on June 12, 2011, 03:12:59 AM
Quote from: davidsinn on June 12, 2011, 02:52:36 AMYes I would if she were to demand one. A Marine is required to salute a senior ranking allied officer though...
I'd be willing to wager that some protocol person has filled in Mrs. Obama on salutes.
Would that be the same protocol person that instructs you on the proper way to toast the queen?
Quote
And how many of you will say that this is wrong?
(http://iconicphotos.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/amex3yearoldjfkjrsalutes.jpg?w=700&h=467)
That's exactly what salutes are all about!
Only thing wrong in that pic is Mrs. Kennedy's choice of attire for junior...
I don't see any pants...
Quote from: lordmonar on June 12, 2011, 01:16:09 AM
I my self have salute people who have not rated it....on purpose!
I guess we are all going to hell!
I do the goofy 2-fingered salute to my friends all the time, every once in a while I'll do a full-on salute. I'm going to hell for violating the non-existing regulation I guess... ::)
Quote from: davidsinn on June 12, 2011, 03:23:17 AM
Would that be the same protocol person that instructs you on the proper way to toast the queen?
Sadly, probably yes.
Regarding the apparel, he's in shorts.
Quote from: SarDragon on June 12, 2011, 03:41:44 AM
Quote from: davidsinn on June 12, 2011, 03:23:17 AM
Would that be the same protocol person that instructs you on the proper way to toast the queen?
Sadly, probably yes.
Regarding the apparel, he's in shorts.
I don't think so because it's the same outfit Caroline is wearing...
Mr Sinn, how old are you?
I was 14 years old, and watched all of this stuff live on TV, as it happened. He was wearing shorts.
Not to mention let's have a little respect for the dead, shall we. They're not around to defend themselves.
Quote from: SarDragon on June 12, 2011, 05:52:04 AM
Mr Sinn, how old are you?
I was 14 years old, and watched all of this stuff live on TV, as it happened. He was wearing shorts.
26. I'm just calling it like I see it. I remember being told when I was little and saw a picture of that and asked why he was wearing a skirt that it was not unheard of once upon a time to put little boys in a skirt.
Quote from: SarDragon on June 12, 2011, 03:12:59 AM
Quote from: davidsinn on June 12, 2011, 02:52:36 AMYes I would if she were to demand one. A Marine is required to salute a senior ranking allied officer though...
I'd be willing to wager that some protocol person has filled in Mrs. Obama on salutes.
And how many of you will say that this is wrong?
(http://iconicphotos.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/amex3yearoldjfkjrsalutes.jpg?w=700&h=467)
That's exactly what salutes are all about!
They arent saluting her. They are saluting President Kennedys casket that is just outside the left side of the photo being placed on the caisson. Thats why the Army officer is facing the direction he is. Its also visible in other photos and in the videos of the ceremony.
Quote from: Flying Pig on June 12, 2011, 02:56:44 PM
Quote from: SarDragon on June 12, 2011, 03:12:59 AM
Quote from: davidsinn on June 12, 2011, 02:52:36 AMYes I would if she were to demand one. A Marine is required to salute a senior ranking allied officer though...
I'd be willing to wager that some protocol person has filled in Mrs. Obama on salutes.
And how many of you will say that this is wrong?
That's exactly what salutes are all about!
They arent saluting her. They are saluting President Kennedys casket that is just outside the left side of the photo being placed on the caisson. Thats why the Army officer is facing the direction he is. Its also visible in other photos and in the videos of the ceremony.
I think he was pointing out that Little Jack Jack....is performing a military salute to which he has not "earned the right" to perform.
Thank you, Pat.