ABU vs BBDU

[JK657]

Just curious on what people think is more important. Is it more important to look like the Air Force to ensure the Auxiliary connection or is it more important that all CAP members are in the same field uniform?

[Luis R. Ramos]

Topic beaten to death in about 1,000,000,000,000 other threads...



Flyer

[Shuman 14]

I go for uniformity across the board.

Not hung up on woodland, blue, khaki, olive drab or ABU pattern for the field uniform... simply that CAP pick one for all members and go with it.

[ZigZag911]

To clarify my position, I'd put all seniors in nothing but corporate uniforms (hopefully with an improvement over the blue blazer, something more appropriate to our heritage), but leave all the cadets in AF style uniforms.

[Shuman 14]

To clarify my position, I'd put all seniors in nothing but corporate uniforms (hopefully with an improvement over the blue blazer, something more appropriate to our heritage), but leave all the cadets in AF style uniforms.

Even for field uniforms? As many have pointed out... BDUs are starting to run out, ABUs are not authorized, and small sizes for younger cadets really don't exist.

[ZigZag911]

I can live with cadets in BBDUs, but losing military style field uniform hurts our draw for youngsters...my experience has been that they like BDUs far more than service dress.

[Eclipse]

BDUs are starting to run out

Cite, please.

[ol'fido]

The last few missions I have been to, nobody really cared what anybody else wore as long as it was correct and reasonably appropriate(No Mess Dress for Ground Teams ). Most of the outside agencies I see at disasters are wearing tan cargo pants(5.11s mostly) and polos.

[Stonewall]

I didn't vote because I hate BBDUs.  I would prefer we all wear BDUs, but that isn't very likely.  If we wear ABUs I hate hate hate the black boot option.

[MIKE]

Even if only 1% of senior members could legitimately wear AF style uniforms... I would keep the option.   

[SAREXinNY]

If we wear ABUs I hate hate hate the black boot option.

^ I concur 100%

[AngelWings]

BBDUs definitely.

WARNING: Off topic comments ahead.

BBDUs with an some updates to them. Dark blue tapes like the ones that have been shown on the ABUs, less patches (remove activity/NCSA patches, squadron and wing patches), black only for the undershirts, making the belt for the uniform be the black riggers belt (I can find them for $3-4, so it wouldn't be expensive), and setting guidelines for the jackets for the BBDUs in the field or when in public. Wouldn't be too much of a change, just one to make things more modern

Possibly we could authorize a job shirt like fire departments use, mainly because it is fleece, comfortable, and good looking. The price would be the only factor I see restricting them, but I'm sure there are cheaper brands the ones I found. Just something I personally wouldn't be opposed to seeing. http://www.thefirestore.com/store/product.aspx/productId/15142/Game-Sportswear-8025-The-Responder-12oz-Superweight-Jobshirt/

I'd drop the shaving requirement for cadets when in the BBDUs.I don't see the actual benefit to having double standards. I'd also say make haircut standards for the seniors. Nothing is worse than seeing a guy with long flowing hair or a mullet walking towards you trying to present themselves as professionals. An update to meet the cadet and senior standards half way would be awesome. What I mean by that is everyone have the same standard, which'd be everyone can grow beards and have longer hair/hair that touches the ears, but everyone has to meet a certain standard of length for both facial hair and haircuts.

We could and should keep the AF style dress uniforms and make them more incorporated into CAP. This would stem the problems of cadets feeling as if the AF uniform has been stripped from them. If I were a PAO, I'd try to get the cadets next to EMTs, EMA agencies, and Fire Departments. Why? Dark blue uniforms are a common staple of first responders and I think you could brand it in such a way to make the SAR side of things look more authentic and attractive to young kids. Just an opinion though, YMMV.

All of these are just improvement ideas I have. Whether they'd ever happen or not is irrelevant to the fact that we all look childish showing up in camo uniforms with so much patches and color that we look like a Christmas tree

[arajca]

BBDUs definitely.

WARNING: Off topic comments ahead.

BBDUs with an some updates to them. Dark blue tapes like the ones that have been shown on the ABUs, less patches (remove activity/NCSA patches, squadron and wing patches), black only for the undershirts, making the belt for the uniform be the black riggers belt (I can find them for $3-4, so it wouldn't be expensive), and setting guidelines for the jackets for the BBDUs in the field or when in public. Wouldn't be too much of a change, just one to make things more modern

Possibly we could authorize a job shirt like fire departments use, mainly because it is fleece, comfortable, and good looking. The price would be the only factor I see restricting them, but I'm sure there are cheaper brands the ones I found. Just something I personally wouldn't be opposed to seeing. http://www.thefirestore.com/store/product.aspx/productId/15142/Game-Sportswear-8025-The-Responder-12oz-Superweight-Jobshirt/

I'd drop the shaving requirement for cadets when in the BBDUs.I don't see the actual benefit to having double standards. I'd also say make haircut standards for the seniors. Nothing is worse than seeing a guy with long flowing hair or a mullet walking towards you trying to present themselves as professionals. An update to meet the cadet and senior standards half way would be awesome. What I mean by that is everyone have the same standard, which'd be everyone can grow beards and have longer hair/hair that touches the ears, but everyone has to meet a certain standard of length for both facial hair and haircuts.

We could and should keep the AF style dress uniforms and make them more incorporated into CAP. This would stem the problems of cadets feeling as if the AF uniform has been stripped from them. If I were a PAO, I'd try to get the cadets next to EMTs, EMA agencies, and Fire Departments. Why? Dark blue uniforms are a common staple of first responders and I think you could brand it in such a way to make the SAR side of things look more authentic and attractive to young kids. Just an opinion though, YMMV.

All of these are just improvement ideas I have. Whether they'd ever happen or not is irrelevant to the fact that we all look childish showing up in camo uniforms with so much patches and color that we look like a Christmas tree

The reason the cadets have to meet the AF grooming standard for any uniform is they do not have the h/w standard to meet until they're 18. At which time, if they wish to become furry, they can come over to the dark side. The AF is not going to loosen the standard just for our cadets. We have enough problems with some cadets meeting a fairly simple hair standard. It'd get a whole lot worse if you loosen the standard. It's really easy to see when the hair is touching or over the ears or the collar without resorting to a ruler to determine compliance.

Where do you find rigger's belts for $3-$4?

[MIKE]

Where do you find rigger's belts for $3-$4?

Price is about right for the DSCP issue one via CGEX.

[AngelWings]

The reason the cadets have to meet the AF grooming standard for any uniform is they do not have the h/w standard to meet until they're 18. At which time, if they wish to become furry, they can come over to the dark side. The AF is not going to loosen the standard just for our cadets. We have enough problems with some cadets meeting a fairly simple hair standard. It'd get a whole lot worse if you loosen the standard. It's really easy to see when the hair is touching or over the ears or the collar without resorting to a ruler to determine compliance.

A good point I didn't consider.

Price is about right for the DSCP issue one via CGEX.

Exactly where I got mine.

[Panache]

BBDUs with an some updates to them. Dark blue tapes like the ones that have been shown on the ABUs, less patches (remove activity/NCSA patches, squadron and wing patches)

Apparently navy blue background for name tapes and grade insignia will be in the new 39-1, or so I've heard here.

Activity and NCSA patches are pretty much optional as is.  Less so Squadron and Wing patches, which are "optional" in it's up to the Wing CC, which the majority choose to mandate wear.

[Shuman 14]

BDUs are starting to run out

Cite, please.

Half a dozen posters on this site have said it.

Haven't seen BDUs in a PX/BX/NEX in a long time either.

[RiverAux]

The options are not mutually exclusive. 

The AF could allow all of us in ABUs -- just prohibit the fat and fuzzies from wearing rank, which was how it was done in the old days.
Since the ABU will have absolutely nothing on it identifying it with the Air Force, besides the basic pattern (which no one outside the military could identify as belonging to the AF anyway), there is no possibility of some 18 year accidentally causing the world to come to an end by saluting a 350 pound CAP member. 

[68w20]

BDUs are starting to run out

Cite, please.

Half a dozen posters on this site have said it.

Haven't seen BDUs in a PX/BX/NEX in a long time either.

http://tinyurl.com/7mckrqw

http://tinyurl.com/nhs494b

http://tinyurl.com/mxc2kza

BDUs aren't magically disappearing because the military is no longer using them exclusively.  They're still available from the same sources they always have been, and at the same prices most members have already been paying.  We've covered this, extensively.  Please stop pretending ignorance, and move on.

Edited for punctuation

[SarDragon]

Those prices are comparable with what I paid 10 years ago in a military exchange.

[Eclipse]

BDUs are starting to run out

Cite, please.

Half a dozen posters on this site have said it.

Haven't seen BDUs in a PX/BX/NEX in a long time either.

Relevance?

The vast majority of our members have no access to MCSS facilities, and
have never used AAFES.

They buy their uniforms commercially, and always have.

[AngelWings]

BDUs are not running out, they're just not manufactured on as wide of a scale as before. Websites still sell them, and they are so ubiquitous that I doubt they're going to be hard to find in 30 years.

[Panache]

BDUs are not running out, they're just not manufactured on as wide of a scale as before.

They're still popular with the paintball and, dare I say it, militia crowd.

[AngelWings]

BDUs are not running out, they're just not manufactured on as wide of a scale as before.

They're still popular with the paintball and, dare I say it, militia crowd.

I see many people wear them, from construction workers, people out for a stroll, hunters/outdoorsmen, and practically anyone who wants a relatively comfortable pair of cargo pants.

The "We can't find them!" argument would be valid if you lived in nowhere, USA and couldn't buy from the internet, or if you aren't currently in America.

[tribalelder]

I'd guess some sizes may become less to unavailable- the xsmall//xshort    for smaller cadets.

[vento]

I'd guess some sizes may become less to unavailable- the xsmall//xshort    for smaller cadets.

That is not a problem unique to the BDU. It is an universal problem regardless of the the pattern.

[a2capt]

..and not unsolvable.
Use Google, "kid sizes <insert uniform variety here>" ABU, BDU, ACU..

[NIN]

I'd guess some sizes may become less to unavailable- the xsmall//xshort    for smaller cadets.

XS/XS became an issue this time around. Of the 12-13 new cadets in our basic flight this fall, 6-7 were in the XS/XS size category.

20+ years ago, my group supply officer screened a gigantic lot (like 20 or 24 boxes) of brand new jungle fatigue uniforms.  At the time, we were still in pickle suits, and jungles, while tacitly worn as a "field uniform" when nobody was looking, were no-go in the regs.  Every uniform was XS/XS. Apparently they'd langished in some warehouse throughout the remainder of the 70s and 80s because the country that was the intended recipient experienced a regime change in April of 1975.

We couldn't do anything with these uniforms (the supply officer refused to issue them to *anybody* because they weren't authorized.  Then why the hell did you screen 4,000 sets of jungle fatigues?) so there they sat.  Never did see where the remaining 20 or so boxes wound up.

But the supply of "inexpensive to obtain" BDUs thru any non-retail logistics channel is drying up, rapidly. Even eBay.

And I'm here to tell you that you can get a full set of gently used ABUs in various sizes for less than $30 via that same avenue.   And if/when the USAF ditches ABUs for whatever joint uniform, you can bet that there will be ABUs in the logistics pipeline for years.  And CAP & CAP-USAF should be on that like crazy when it does happen.

[skymaster]

I have an idea. If we would like to have everyone in the same field uniform, would there be a problem with Multicam? It still has a military link in that variants of that pattern is already in use by some elements of our Armed Forces (including full colour unit patches worn stateside by some USAF units), yet it is, strictly speaking, NOT exclusive to one branch of service, and even though it is used by some military units, is NOT a military-exclusive clothing item. They have been worn for years by civilians who are military cosplayers, as well as paintballers and hunters and the like. They are readily available, about the same price as BDUs, and since they are not exclusively a military uniform, should be easier to procure and approve than ABUs.

[ZigZag911]

Multicam or any other camouflage is not really suited for GT coordination with aircrews in wooded environments.

Admittedly, navy blue is not an ideal color either.

[Eclipse]

+1 - As soon as you take service affinity off the table, then whatever is chosen should be mission-suited and not camouflage of any type.

[Pulsar]

Just think, cadets in the mid 20th century were probably constantly discussing when CAP would change from WW2 uniform to BDUs...and we're here to carry on the tradition.

[Panache]

Just think, cadets in the mid 20th century were probably constantly discussing when CAP would change from WW2 uniform to BDUs...and we're here to carry on the tradition.

And in another 100 years, our ancestors will be arguing about if CAP (or its successor) should wear the same Stormtrooper armor as our parent service, or go with the more casual Sith robes.

[Eclipse]

If science fiction as taught us anything, it's that all clothing in the future will be one-piece jumpsuits.


And honestly, these above would be far more functional then anything CAP is wearing today.

[SarDragon]

YGBSM! Functional to work in, maybe, until you have to take a potty break. Then they become a bigger fail than USN 13-button trousers.

Just say no.

[NIN]

If science fiction as taught us anything, it's that all clothing in the future will be one-piece jumpsuits.
<snip>
And honestly, these above would be far more functional then anything CAP is wearing today.

Already got that.  I have two.

[RiverAux]

If science fiction as taught us anything, it's that all clothing in the future will be one-piece jumpsuits.

Re-watch the original ST....

[PHall]

If science fiction as taught us anything, it's that all clothing in the future will be one-piece jumpsuits.

Re-watch the original ST....

Rewatch Star Trek Enterprise.

[RiverAux]

And they saw the error their ways and dropped the jumpsuits (for the most part)

[Luis R. Ramos]

Another 100 years potty breaks will be eliminated as there will be an optional pill replacing the need to ingest food. No by-products...

Flyer

[Майор Хаткевич]

More like biological clothing.

[LSThiker]

YGBSM! Functional to work in, maybe, until you have to take a potty break. Then they become a bigger fail than USN 13-button trousers.

Just say no.

No different than a standard flight uniform or the Army's tanker overalls. 

[Eclipse]

Or flight suits.  I think some of our members still wear those once and awhile.

The first season year they can be jumpsuits, then re-imagined to be two-piece uniforms, and then leave the jumpsuits for
the enlisted and cadets.

[Panache]

Ah, I see they finished taking pictures for the new 39-1....

[LSThiker]

In all honesty, I like the Star Trek Federation uniforms.  They are streamlined, sterile, basic, and free of other junk.  They only contain three things:  comm badge, rank, and job category (science/medical, engineering/operations, or command).  Everyone looks the same.  Even the dress uniform is sterile and basic (TNG and above).  I would love if the military and CAP went to these style of uniforms.

[NIN]

Ah, I see they finished taking pictures for the new 39-1....

But does he have a satchel?

[ol'fido]

Ah, I see they finished taking pictures for the new 39-1....

But does he have a satchel?

Not even the Enterprise wants to go there, boldly or otherwise.