A "What If?" kind of question

[Eclipse]

IMHO what has happened is that over time CAP's decs have evolved to include extra-CAP activities, not that they were intended that way in the first place.  I'd hazard a guess that in most cases it was because someone got ahold of a golden pen and decided to use it.

I confess I have no idea what the point of the Community Service award is, since the entirety of CAP service, especially senior members, but
cadets as well, is a community service.  I put that in the same bucket as CAP donating money to other charities.  It just seems to miss the point.

Service of merit or valor at a CAP activity by a CAP member is likely to be the direct result of training, initiative, and a little luck of circumstance by that member, and would, and does, represent the pinnacle and example of achievement and honor for that member.  It is also generally understood by the majority of members as to how and why that member received the award.

As an example, "going into a burning aircraft and rescuing the passengers or a fellow aircrew member at great risk to personal safety".  We'd all pretty much understand that one.

But present an award for pulling someone from a car-wreck on the way home from work, and that's a whole different discussion, because for starters the odds are there needs to be some level of local nepotism or self-aggrandizement for CAP to even know about the event, let alone be awarded a valor dec.

I think it cheapens the whole situation.

[flyboy53]

For some reason, this thought began fluttering through my mind this morning (it had plenty of room to do so) and I wanted to ask my CAPTalk friends to join me in the speculation:

Let us speculate that there is a CAP member who is also an AD soldier, sailor, airman, or Marine.  Let's also speculate that this individual is deployed to one of the war zones currently found in the Middle East.

Now ... let us say that this individual performs an act of extreme heroism which results in being awarded the Medal of Honor (and survives to receive the award).  His/her squadron CC back in the States gets word of what happened.  Is the squadron CC allowed to put the member in for a Silver Medal of Valor for the same event?

Not that I've ever heard of such ... I'm just asking. 

Thanks ...

Jack

I guess I wonder why you used the Medal of Honor. There really isn't a CAP equivalent to that decoration nor should there be...giving someone a CAP Medal for such an exceptional act of valor would understate the CAP award and make it seem almost patronizing. Think of it another way. Did any one of the CAP Air Medal recipients receive a comparable CAP award for that service, not likely.

If we were fortunate to have someone like that in our ranks -- and we did have a Region LO who was a Medal of Honor recipient for those of you who remember NER/LO Col. James P. Fleming -- I would be on the horn up the chain of command to determine what other recognition would be appropriate and then let the powers that be decide.

Also consider this. there are two Medals of Honor. The other being the Congressional Space Medal of Honor and there is a CAP Spaatz cadet who earned it, Col. Frank Borman. What recognition did he get?

[RiverAux]

The Silver Medal of Valor most certainly is the CAP equivalent of the Medal of Honor.  That doesn't mean that they are equal in the grand scheme of things, but in so far as the SMOV is the highest CAP award for valor as the MoH for those in the military, they are equivalent.  That being said, they are unequal in the sense that if someone with a MoH joined CAP, the MoH would have higher precedence in ribbon wear on his CAP uniform. 

That being said, it would be idiotic to give someone the CAP SMOV for an act that earned them the MoH, Silver Star, or any other military decoration for that matter.  If someone earns an award for something that they have done in their capacity in another organization, there is no need for CAP to give them a separate award.  I don't like, but can live with, CAP giving awards for stuff done off CAP duty when acting as Joe Blow Citizen, but not if they were doing it as part of their job or with another group. 

[Hawk200]

The Silver Medal of Valor most certainly is the CAP equivalent of the Medal of Honor.  That doesn't mean that they are equal in the grand scheme of things, but in so far as the SMOV is the highest CAP award for valor as the MoH for those in the military, they are equivalent.  That being said, they are unequal in the sense that if someone with a MoH joined CAP, the MoH would have higher precedence in ribbon wear on his CAP uniform. 

So, in your eyes, the SMV and the MOH are equivalent because they're both the top decoration for the respective organizations? That doesn't sound very informed.

The Medal of Honor has quite often (maybe most often) been awarded posthumously. I think it's probably safe to say that there are far more SMV's out there than there are MOHs. They are not equivalent awards, they are presented in a very different manner, and the SMV does not hold near the distinction of the MOH. When's the last time you heard about an SMV recipient? How about the Medal of Honor? Big difference.

I am not saying that the SMV is not a distinctive award, but it's very different than the highest award that can be presented to a military member.

[Eclipse]

So, in your eyes, the SMV and the MOH are equivalent because they're both the top decoration for the respective organizations? That doesn't sound very informed.

That's not how I read that.

[RiverAux]

So, in your eyes, the SMV and the MOH are equivalent because they're both the top decoration for the respective organizations? That doesn't sound very informed.

That's not how I read that.

No, he read my comment correctly.  In the sense that they are both the top awards for valor for their respective organizations, they are equivalent.  Just as the top award for valor given by any police or fire department would be equivalent. 

That in no way means that I believe that an action that would earn you a SMOV are equal to an action that would earn a MoH.  An action that generally would rate a SMOV in CAP wouldn't come close to rating a MoH. 

But, on an institutional level, they are equal.  Not any different than comparing a CAP Capt. to an AF Captain.  Within their organizations they hold equivalent ranks.  Doesn't mean anything about their relative "worth".

Obviously, on just about any other level you'd like to discuss, they are very unequal. 

I think it's probably safe to say that there are far more SMV's out there than there are MOHs.

Actually, there is every possibility that there are more MoHs than SMOVs.  Wikipedia says that only 3,455 people have earned the MoH.  I know there is a CAP Medal of Valor Association that has been trying to compile a list, but I'd be surprised if there were more than 1,000 of them.  But, even if there were fewer SMOVs than MoH, that doesn't in any way detract from the significance of the MoH-- just reflects that CAP members only rarely earn this particular CAP award.  Heck, there may be fewer people with the CAP Achievement Award than the MoH right now, but thats only because the award is so new. 

[Hawk200]

In the sense that they are both the top awards for valor for their respective organizations, they are equivalent.  Just as the top award for valor given by any police or fire department would be equivalent.

That's an equation that doesn't really work. You can say they're both the top awards in an organization, and I would agree. But, equivalent they are not. Top award does not mean equal. They are not, and will never be equal.

That in no way means that I believe that an action that would earn you a SMOV are equal to an action that would earn a MoH.  An action that generally would rate a SMOV in CAP wouldn't come close to rating a MoH.

I'm glad you note this, it's an important difference. Tell a military member that an SMV from an organization that he or she has probably never heard of is equivalent to an MoH, and you'll probably get a poke in the nose. I wouldn't argue with anyone that did it either.

But, on an institutional level, they are equal.  Not any different than comparing a CAP Capt. to an AF Captain.  Within their organizations they hold equivalent ranks.  Doesn't mean anything about their relative "worth".

We're not talking about "worth." One has far different criteria than the other, in both medals and personnel ranks.

You're trying to draw an equality here that does not exist. If it makes you feel better, that's up to you. Might be wise to keep it to yourself, though.

[lordmonar]

Nope.  All three are done directly in the name of, or during a CAP activity.

And I'm not a big fan of the CS ribbon, either, so there you go.

I agree there's a precedent, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with it, nor that it can't be changed going forward.

Nope.

The community service ribbon cannot have anything to do with CAP.  If CAP organises the activity then the hours do not count.
Recruiting does not count when it is a CAP run recruiting booth or acitivity.   It must be a cadet or Senior Member making the sale on his own time.
CAP does not have a marksman program.  We may shoot some times at CAP activities....and maybe have the opprotunity at CAP activities....but in the context of the original badge....it was during NRA time that it was earned.

If you thing that good things done outside of CAP cannot be recognised in CAP.....then you MUST also accept that bad things that happen outside of CAP MUST like wise be ignored.

[lordmonar]

The Silver Medal of Valor most certainly is the CAP equivalent of the Medal of Honor.  That doesn't mean that they are equal in the grand scheme of things, but in so far as the SMOV is the highest CAP award for valor as the MoH for those in the military, they are equivalent.  That being said, they are unequal in the sense that if someone with a MoH joined CAP, the MoH would have higher precedence in ribbon wear on his CAP uniform. 

That being said, it would be idiotic to give someone the CAP SMOV for an act that earned them the MoH, Silver Star, or any other military decoration for that matter.  If someone earns an award for something that they have done in their capacity in another organization, there is no need for CAP to give them a separate award.  I don't like, but can live with, CAP giving awards for stuff done off CAP duty when acting as Joe Blow Citizen, but not if they were doing it as part of their job or with another group.

Let me point out a some of the thing Sully Sulenburger got.

He was made an honorary policeman from his local police department.
He was given the keys to the city of his home town.
He was given the Medal of Valor from his local fire department.

There here many organisations, cities, states and individuals who honored him....

My point is that we honor people who show great credit upon themselves and our ogranisation.   Just because someone else also shows them honor does not mean we can't as well.

Back to the "if it did not happen on CAP time....it did not happen" mentality.....if you honest with yourself you will see how falty that logic is.

And let's not bring politics into this.   Yes we all know that who you know is sometimes more important then what you did......but just because it was abused in the past...does not mean we have to throw the baby out with the bath water.

[lordmonar]

I think it's probably safe to say that there are far more SMV's out there than there are MOHs.

You are wrong.  There are around 450 SMOV and BMOV out there...there has been 3455 recipients of the MOH since it's inception in 1862.

They are not equivalent awards, they are presented in a very different manner, and the SMV does not hold near the distinction of the MOH.

The are equivalent......that is they are both the highest award possible by the two different organisation.  No one is/has/will ever suggest that the are equivalent in the sense that they have the same standards, same award authority, same distinction or same prestige.  To bring this up only muddies the arguments we are trying to make.

When's the last time you heard about an SMV recipient? How about the Medal of Honor? Big difference.

Yes they are....but that is not the point anyone is trying to make.

I am not saying that the SMV is not a distinctive award, but it's very different than the highest award that can be presented to a military member.

River beat me to it....I should read the whole thread before I start responding 

[Eclipse]

The community service ribbon cannot have anything to do with CAP.  If CAP organises the activity then the hours do not count.

A CAP commander must approve of the activity and be aware it is happening, including reviewing reports from whomever is substantiating.  It is absolutely connected to CAP.

Recruiting does not count when it is a CAP run recruiting booth or acitivity.   It must be a cadet or Senior Member making the sale on his own time.

No such restriction exists.  It's whomever's CAPID is on the new member's application. Period. And if you're recruiting someone to CAP, that is "CAP time".

CAP does not have a marksman program.  We may shoot some times at CAP activities....and maybe have the opprotunity at CAP activities....but in the context of the original badge....it was during NRA time that it was earned.

Correct, and since we aren't awarding the badge, simply allowing it's wear, I don't understand why you raised it in this discussion.

[lordmonar]

Well....it all comes down to being constant.

It makes no sense to punish CAP members for outside events....but not also reward them.

[AirDX]

I think the best reason not to chase a MOH with a CAP SMOV is just that it's tacky.  Find a way to honor the individual - maybe an honorary life membership.  But another medal that may be our highest but certainly not on a par with the MOH - it just feels wrong.

As I was reading this thread I went to a site that has all the MOH citations on it.  I read about 6, and had to stop - I was tearing up.  These are stories of incredible self-sacrifice and heroism.  Don't even try to equate it with anything else.

[flyboy53]

I understand the whole point is to recognize CAP-wise such an incredible feat, but when I said I'd be on the phone talking to those up the chain of command, I specifically meant that higher headquarters should be the ones who decide what type of recognition is best warranted.

These days, I've seen so many people promoted to colonels for different types of special achievement.  I wouldn't be at all surprised if that type of recognition isn't on the table as an option.

And no, I've never considered a SMV anywhere close to a MOH. SMV similar to a Silver Star, maybe, but the MOH stands alone -- as it should in all circles because it is considered the American military's pinacle of decorations. There have been a fortunte handful who have actually earned it twice. For that reason, you don't see anything close to it from a National Guard perspective or anywhere else in the DoD. Why should there be....

And by the way, some intesting facts for those of you who are trying to compare the two medals. If there are more MOHs, it is only because the decoration dates from the Civil War when there were an extimated 30 some medals given each month of the conflict, sometimes while the recipients were still on the field of battle.

These days, a recommendation does undergo an extensive amount of scrutiny to not only make sure that the individual's actions can be verified, but also because the potential recipient must be able to withstand public eye especially in these days of the Internet.

Considering what one former HWSRN did to achieve the medal, I would hope that any future awards undergo an equal amount of scrutiny and I wouldn't be so quick to recommend it as a CAP option.

[Hawk200]

They are not equivalent awards, they are presented in a very different manner, and the SMV does not hold near the distinction of the MOH.

The are equivalent......that is they are both the highest award possible by the two different organisation.  No one is/has/will ever suggest that the are equivalent in the sense that they have the same standards, same award authority, same distinction or same prestige.  To bring this up only muddies the arguments we are trying to make.[/quote]
Look up the word "equivalent." You should understand then.

The correction is noted.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Considering what one former HWSRN did to achieve the medal, I would hope that any future awards undergo an equal amount of scrutiny and I wouldn't be so quick to recommend it as a CAP option.

Which is another reason why I support discontinuing both the SMOV and BMOV and, with the Air Force's advice and consent, replacing them with the Air Force Civilian Award for Valor, as well as other AF civilian awards, but that's been covered on another thread.



But as far as the "equivalency" argument goes...I tend to stand with Hawk200, they are equivalent awards for different circumstances and different organisations.

British Commonwealth nations have a somewhat similar situation.

British, Canadian, Australian and New Zealand troops' highest award is the Victoria Cross - not open to civilians.

Civilians, however, can earn the George Cross for similar acts of bravery.

[lordmonar]

Look up the word "equivalent." You should understand then.

I understand the word and stand by it.

CAP's highest award is the SMOV.  The U.S. Military's highest award the MOH.  The UK's highest military award is the VC (Victoria Cross).  They are equivalent.

But the largest apple and the largest orange and the largest grapefruit are all equivalent in rank as well....but they are different.

As I said....don't muddy this argument over word choice.

[titanII]

It seems to me that everyone is agreeing about the "equivalence" thing, but their word choice is confusing many. Classic CAP Talk  .

[Hawk200]

Look up the word "equivalent." You should understand then.

I understand the word and stand by it.

CAP's highest award is the SMOV.  The U.S. Military's highest award the MOH.  The UK's highest military award is the VC (Victoria Cross).  They are equivalent.

But the largest apple and the largest orange and the largest grapefruit are all equivalent in rank as well....but they are different.

As I said....don't muddy this argument over word choice.

Not "muddying" the argument, I'm sticking to the true definition of terminology. People using their own definitions is part of why there are communications problems.

[JeffDG]

British, Canadian, Australian and New Zealand troops' highest award is the Victoria Cross - not open to civilians.

To be precise, members of the Canadian Forces have not been eligible to be awarded the VC since 1972.  It was replaced in 1993 by the Canadian Victoria's Cross, which has actually never been awarded yet.