A "What If?" kind of question

[ColonelJack]

For some reason, this thought began fluttering through my mind this morning (it had plenty of room to do so) and I wanted to ask my CAPTalk friends to join me in the speculation:

Let us speculate that there is a CAP member who is also an AD soldier, sailor, airman, or Marine.  Let's also speculate that this individual is deployed to one of the war zones currently found in the Middle East.

Now ... let us say that this individual performs an act of extreme heroism which results in being awarded the Medal of Honor (and survives to receive the award).  His/her squadron CC back in the States gets word of what happened.  Is the squadron CC allowed to put the member in for a Silver Medal of Valor for the same event?

Not that I've ever heard of such ... I'm just asking. 

Thanks ...

Jack

[cap235629]

probably but really, why on earth would they want to?

[Eclipse]

They can submit him for anything.

With that said, the SMV is a lesser award and I would say it would be inappropriate.

Leave CAP awards for CAP service.

[lordmonar]

Yes.

CAP and their awards are for us to honor our members.....even if they have been honored and/or compensated by other agencies.

The only line I would draw...is that if the occupation is such that the act is considered part of their job.

I.e.  A Cadet who sees someone drowning and rescues them should be put in for a life saving ribbon.  However, if that same cadet were employed as a life guard and saves someone while on the job.....I would look at a letter or commednation or certficiate of some instead.

Having said that......if the lifeguard went way above and beyond the call of duty to perform that rescue.....then I would consider a BMOV of SMOV as the case may be....in addition to the lifesaving ribbon.

For AD military....it would have to be considered withing the context of the job when the performed the act.  A PJ or Rescue Swimmer would be held to a higher standard then the Admin Clerk or Fitness Center Technican.

YMMV

[titanII]

the SMV is a lesser award and I would say it would be inappropriate.

That's basically what I was gonna say in a nutshell. The person has already received the Medal of Honor. There aren't too many awards he can get that would top that. In fact, I can't think of any off the top of my head. A congratulations and round of applause would be the best and most appropriate thing the MOH recipient could get from his unit.

[cap235629]

Yes.

CAP and their awards are for us to honor our members.....even if they have been honored and/or compensated by other agencies.

The only line I would draw...is that if the occupation is such that the act is considered part of their job.

I.e.  A Cadet who sees someone drowning and rescues them should be put in for a life saving ribbon.  However, if that same cadet were employed as a life guard and saves someone while on the job.....I would look at a letter or commednation or certficiate of some instead.

Having said that......if the lifeguard went way above and beyond the call of duty to perform that rescue.....then I would consider a BMOV of SMOV as the case may be....in addition to the lifesaving ribbon.

For AD military....it would have to be considered withing the context of the job when the performed the act.  A PJ or Rescue Swimmer would be held to a higher standard then the Admin Clerk or Fitness Center Technican.

YMMV

How on earth can you even put the scenarios above in the same universe with those actions that warrant the award of the Medal of Honor?

The actions that lead to a Medal of Honor are in no way, shape or form "part of the job"

[lordmonar]

It's not....I did not equate the same.

I gave a generic answer to the question.

An AD member receives an award for heroism.....can we award him/her a CAP medal too.

The answer, IMHO, is yes.

I caviated that with we need to bump it up against what their jobs were.

By definition the MOH is above and beyond the call of duty.....ergo.....any CAP member who gets the MOH should be able to get the SMOV too.

Is it a little redundant, redunand?  Maybe....but that's not the point.  CAP should be rewarding its people for all actions that deserve it.

So...I opend the scope of the discussion to show that any member doing any thing on or off CAP time should be rewarded if their actions warrent it.

[titanII]

  CAP should be rewarding its people for all actions that deserve it.

...any member doing any thing on or off CAP time should be rewarded if their actions warrant it.

I don't think that most "good" actions off CAP time warrant CAP awards/ribbons/etc. I think that most CAP awards/ribbons/etc. were created to award members for their "good" actions in service of CAP. Now, there are a few that (I feel) are actually meant for actions off CAP time, like the Community Service Ribbon. But most are meant for actions on CAP time, and (I feel) should be limited to that.

That being said, I'm not in charge here. I can't really decide who gets what award for which action. So I guess we'll have to agree to disagree 

[Eclipse]

CAP should be rewarding its people for all CAP actions that deserve it, and let other organizations decorate their people as they see fit.

Fixed that for you, no charge.

Giving a member an SMV for an action that already received an MOH (or any other military decoration for that matter), smacks of CAP either "validating the award" which is unnecessary, or trying to get into the "good on you" club for the same action, or worse, trying to equate the SMV with the MoH, which is a losing argument for everyone involved - different organizations, different missions, different definitions and opportunities for valor.

The member with the MoH is going to walk around with a ribbon that trumps everything else on their uniform and should entitle them to free drinks for life.  What's the point of us adding our jelly bean below (likely way below) that?

We'd be so much better off just staying out of other people's parties and properly honoring our own people, with no connection made between the two.

[lordmonar]

Then we should never ever give a CAP award for anything that was not done on CAP time.

How many SMOV adn BMOV and lifesaving awards do we have to rescend now?

Granted in the context of a real MOH winner....anything we give him will redundant......but from the principle of the thing....if ANY action outside of CAP warrents any recognition.....then we have to logically extend it to the absurd and allow a SMOV to a MOH winner.

Else you can't reward the cadet who uses quick thinking and appropriate skills who saves a life or performs some other service but was NOT on CAP time.

[Eclipse]

I am not a proponent of awarding people for actions on personal time, so I the wrong tree to bark on that.

Yes, lifesaving and other, too.

[Hawk200]

Giving a member an SMV for an action that already received an MOH (or any other military decoration for that matter), smacks of CAP either "validating the award" which is unnecessary, or trying to get into the "good on you" club for the same action, or worse, trying to equate the SMV with the MoH, which is a losing argument for everyone involved - different organizations, different missions, different definitions and opportunities for valor.

Agreed. Why is it that some in CAP think that a military award doesn't mean anything until CAP has one? This looks just like the situation where someone wanted to create a CAP astronaut wing for one person. It's pointless.

This idea that CAP needs a badge, ribbon, device, or other googaw for everything any other organization has looks a lot like hubris. And that appearance is not good for us.

[lordmonar]

I am not a proponent of awarding people for actions on personal time, so I the wrong tree to bark on that.

Yes, lifesaving and other, too.

I can name three awards right off hand that are all on personal time.

Recruiting
Community Service
Marksmanship awards (yes I know, you currently can't earn it but you know what I meant).

Like I said....beyond what your opinion on what should be recognised....the precedent is already there.  How many of the 400+ S/BMOV that have been awarded are for thing "outside" of CAP?

Cadet Doogood saves a person's life on his way to the CAP meeting (clearly in the regulations as his own and NOT CAP time).....you just say...."good job" and that it, But Capt Imapilot flies two hours with some blood in a cooler in the back seat and he gets a lifesaving ribbon.

Do you see the disconnect there?

By your standard....if Cadet Doogood gets in trouble at school or with the law.....we equally can't/shouldn't do anything about that?  It has no reflection upon his CAP career?  Before you answer think about how you responded to this issue on all the social media threads.  Make sure that you are being consitant with you standards.

Either CAP stops and starts at the door......in all things.....or it does not.  If my non CAP life affects my CAP career.....why should we not reward CAP members when the do good things.....we certainly hammer members when the screw up in their non-CAP life.

[ol'fido]

If you ask the guy that got the MOH if it would be alright to put them in for the SMOV, they would probably tell you, "thanks for honor but it's really not necessary". So, I would let the MOH stand on it's own merit(which it should).

The RM does give awards for off duty actions. I knew of several soldiers during my AD time that received ARCOMs,etc. for chasing down muggers or helping above and beyond at major accidents while off duty. 

[lordmonar]

Agreed. Why is it that some in CAP think that a military award doesn't mean anything until CAP has one? This looks just like the situation where someone wanted to create a CAP astronaut wing for one person. It's pointless.

This idea that CAP needs a badge, ribbon, device, or other googaw for everything any other organization has looks a lot like hubris. And that appearance is not good for us.

I don't think it was pointless.  It may have been unnecessary....but not pointless.  One can argue that.....yes he has his NASA wings....but he can't wear them on his White and Grays.   One can argue on the point that....maybe we wanted to celebrate one of our own......not that he needed it...but we did. (that is one of the other reasons why we have awards).

Look at people like the Capt Sully Sullenburger.....after his event....he must have gotten rewarded by 10-15 different organisations and people for his actions.   If he were a CAP member I would have expected that he too would have gotten at least a BMOV.

Now I agree that going out of our way creating a specail award for a single individual is probably going too far.   But that is not the same thing as giving a CAP award for something may have gotten an award from someone else.

And this has nothing to do with wanting to have the same sort of blingage to match other organisation....no one has suggested anything of the sort.  This is about rewarding good behavior/actions/service of CAP members on and off duty.

[lordmonar]

If you ask the guy that got the MOH if it would be alright to put them in for the SMOV, they would probably tell you, "thanks for honor but it's really not necessary". So, I would let the MOH stand on it's own merit(which it should).

The RM does give awards for off duty actions. I knew of several soldiers during my AD time that received ARCOMs,etc. for chasing down muggers or helping above and beyond at major accidents while off duty.

Not to mention the Military Oustanding volunteer Service Medal.

Not to mention that all EPRs and Airman/NCO/SNCO of the quarter/year packages have a "community service" componant.

[Ed Bos]

I am not a proponent of awarding people for actions on personal time, so I the wrong tree to bark on that.

Yes, lifesaving and other, too.

I can name three awards right off hand that are all on personal time.

Recruiting
Community Service
Marksmanship awards (yes I know, you currently can't earn it but you know what I meant).

Like I said....beyond what your opinion on what should be recognised....the precedent is already there.  How many of the 400+ S/BMOV that have been awarded are for thing "outside" of CAP?

Cadet Doogood saves a person's life on his way to the CAP meeting (clearly in the regulations as his own and NOT CAP time).....you just say...."good job" and that it, But Capt Imapilot flies two hours with some blood in a cooler in the back seat and he gets a lifesaving ribbon.

Do you see the disconnect there?

By your standard....if Cadet Doogood gets in trouble at school or with the law.....we equally can't/shouldn't do anything about that?  It has no reflection upon his CAP career?  Before you answer think about how you responded to this issue on all the social media threads.  Make sure that you are being consitant with you standards.

Either CAP stops and starts at the door......in all things.....or it does not.  If my non CAP life affects my CAP career.....why should we not reward CAP members when the do good things.....we certainly hammer members when the screw up in their non-CAP life.

+1

CAP isn't an occupation. As long as your dues are current, you're always on "CAP Time." Our membership is expected to represent the organization and live by the Core Values at all times.

[RiverAux]

Unfortunately, CAP members can receive CAP awards for actions taken outside of their CAP duties.  I don't believe that should be the way things are done, but it is.

[Eclipse]

I am not a proponent of awarding people for actions on personal time, so I the wrong tree to bark on that.

Yes, lifesaving and other, too.

I can name three awards right off hand that are all on personal time.

Recruiting
Community Service
Marksmanship awards (yes I know, you currently can't earn it but you know what I meant).

Nope.  All three are done directly in the name of, or during a CAP activity.

And I'm not a big fan of the CS ribbon, either, so there you go.

I agree there's a precedent, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with it, nor that it can't be changed going forward.

[titanII]

There is a problem here that many seem to be overlooking: some CAP awards are designed to award members for actions not taken in CAP activities. There are also awards designed to award members for their actions taken in CAP activities. To say that all awards should be awarded for either CAP or non-CAP actions is too generalistic, and, I think, incorrect. We can't put all awards in one group, we can't just blanket them all with the same rules.
Obviously opinion varies on the above statement. Nothin' I can do about it.

[Eclipse]

IMHO what has happened is that over time CAP's decs have evolved to include extra-CAP activities, not that they were intended that way in the first place.  I'd hazard a guess that in most cases it was because someone got ahold of a golden pen and decided to use it.

I confess I have no idea what the point of the Community Service award is, since the entirety of CAP service, especially senior members, but
cadets as well, is a community service.  I put that in the same bucket as CAP donating money to other charities.  It just seems to miss the point.

Service of merit or valor at a CAP activity by a CAP member is likely to be the direct result of training, initiative, and a little luck of circumstance by that member, and would, and does, represent the pinnacle and example of achievement and honor for that member.  It is also generally understood by the majority of members as to how and why that member received the award.

As an example, "going into a burning aircraft and rescuing the passengers or a fellow aircrew member at great risk to personal safety".  We'd all pretty much understand that one.

But present an award for pulling someone from a car-wreck on the way home from work, and that's a whole different discussion, because for starters the odds are there needs to be some level of local nepotism or self-aggrandizement for CAP to even know about the event, let alone be awarded a valor dec.

I think it cheapens the whole situation.

[flyboy53]

For some reason, this thought began fluttering through my mind this morning (it had plenty of room to do so) and I wanted to ask my CAPTalk friends to join me in the speculation:

Let us speculate that there is a CAP member who is also an AD soldier, sailor, airman, or Marine.  Let's also speculate that this individual is deployed to one of the war zones currently found in the Middle East.

Now ... let us say that this individual performs an act of extreme heroism which results in being awarded the Medal of Honor (and survives to receive the award).  His/her squadron CC back in the States gets word of what happened.  Is the squadron CC allowed to put the member in for a Silver Medal of Valor for the same event?

Not that I've ever heard of such ... I'm just asking. 

Thanks ...

Jack

I guess I wonder why you used the Medal of Honor. There really isn't a CAP equivalent to that decoration nor should there be...giving someone a CAP Medal for such an exceptional act of valor would understate the CAP award and make it seem almost patronizing. Think of it another way. Did any one of the CAP Air Medal recipients receive a comparable CAP award for that service, not likely.

If we were fortunate to have someone like that in our ranks -- and we did have a Region LO who was a Medal of Honor recipient for those of you who remember NER/LO Col. James P. Fleming -- I would be on the horn up the chain of command to determine what other recognition would be appropriate and then let the powers that be decide.

Also consider this. there are two Medals of Honor. The other being the Congressional Space Medal of Honor and there is a CAP Spaatz cadet who earned it, Col. Frank Borman. What recognition did he get?

[RiverAux]

The Silver Medal of Valor most certainly is the CAP equivalent of the Medal of Honor.  That doesn't mean that they are equal in the grand scheme of things, but in so far as the SMOV is the highest CAP award for valor as the MoH for those in the military, they are equivalent.  That being said, they are unequal in the sense that if someone with a MoH joined CAP, the MoH would have higher precedence in ribbon wear on his CAP uniform. 

That being said, it would be idiotic to give someone the CAP SMOV for an act that earned them the MoH, Silver Star, or any other military decoration for that matter.  If someone earns an award for something that they have done in their capacity in another organization, there is no need for CAP to give them a separate award.  I don't like, but can live with, CAP giving awards for stuff done off CAP duty when acting as Joe Blow Citizen, but not if they were doing it as part of their job or with another group. 

[Hawk200]

The Silver Medal of Valor most certainly is the CAP equivalent of the Medal of Honor.  That doesn't mean that they are equal in the grand scheme of things, but in so far as the SMOV is the highest CAP award for valor as the MoH for those in the military, they are equivalent.  That being said, they are unequal in the sense that if someone with a MoH joined CAP, the MoH would have higher precedence in ribbon wear on his CAP uniform. 

So, in your eyes, the SMV and the MOH are equivalent because they're both the top decoration for the respective organizations? That doesn't sound very informed.

The Medal of Honor has quite often (maybe most often) been awarded posthumously. I think it's probably safe to say that there are far more SMV's out there than there are MOHs. They are not equivalent awards, they are presented in a very different manner, and the SMV does not hold near the distinction of the MOH. When's the last time you heard about an SMV recipient? How about the Medal of Honor? Big difference.

I am not saying that the SMV is not a distinctive award, but it's very different than the highest award that can be presented to a military member.

[Eclipse]

So, in your eyes, the SMV and the MOH are equivalent because they're both the top decoration for the respective organizations? That doesn't sound very informed.

That's not how I read that.

[RiverAux]

So, in your eyes, the SMV and the MOH are equivalent because they're both the top decoration for the respective organizations? That doesn't sound very informed.

That's not how I read that.

No, he read my comment correctly.  In the sense that they are both the top awards for valor for their respective organizations, they are equivalent.  Just as the top award for valor given by any police or fire department would be equivalent. 

That in no way means that I believe that an action that would earn you a SMOV are equal to an action that would earn a MoH.  An action that generally would rate a SMOV in CAP wouldn't come close to rating a MoH. 

But, on an institutional level, they are equal.  Not any different than comparing a CAP Capt. to an AF Captain.  Within their organizations they hold equivalent ranks.  Doesn't mean anything about their relative "worth".

Obviously, on just about any other level you'd like to discuss, they are very unequal. 

I think it's probably safe to say that there are far more SMV's out there than there are MOHs.

Actually, there is every possibility that there are more MoHs than SMOVs.  Wikipedia says that only 3,455 people have earned the MoH.  I know there is a CAP Medal of Valor Association that has been trying to compile a list, but I'd be surprised if there were more than 1,000 of them.  But, even if there were fewer SMOVs than MoH, that doesn't in any way detract from the significance of the MoH-- just reflects that CAP members only rarely earn this particular CAP award.  Heck, there may be fewer people with the CAP Achievement Award than the MoH right now, but thats only because the award is so new. 

[Hawk200]

In the sense that they are both the top awards for valor for their respective organizations, they are equivalent.  Just as the top award for valor given by any police or fire department would be equivalent.

That's an equation that doesn't really work. You can say they're both the top awards in an organization, and I would agree. But, equivalent they are not. Top award does not mean equal. They are not, and will never be equal.

That in no way means that I believe that an action that would earn you a SMOV are equal to an action that would earn a MoH.  An action that generally would rate a SMOV in CAP wouldn't come close to rating a MoH.

I'm glad you note this, it's an important difference. Tell a military member that an SMV from an organization that he or she has probably never heard of is equivalent to an MoH, and you'll probably get a poke in the nose. I wouldn't argue with anyone that did it either.

But, on an institutional level, they are equal.  Not any different than comparing a CAP Capt. to an AF Captain.  Within their organizations they hold equivalent ranks.  Doesn't mean anything about their relative "worth".

We're not talking about "worth." One has far different criteria than the other, in both medals and personnel ranks.

You're trying to draw an equality here that does not exist. If it makes you feel better, that's up to you. Might be wise to keep it to yourself, though.

[lordmonar]

Nope.  All three are done directly in the name of, or during a CAP activity.

And I'm not a big fan of the CS ribbon, either, so there you go.

I agree there's a precedent, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with it, nor that it can't be changed going forward.

Nope.

The community service ribbon cannot have anything to do with CAP.  If CAP organises the activity then the hours do not count.
Recruiting does not count when it is a CAP run recruiting booth or acitivity.   It must be a cadet or Senior Member making the sale on his own time.
CAP does not have a marksman program.  We may shoot some times at CAP activities....and maybe have the opprotunity at CAP activities....but in the context of the original badge....it was during NRA time that it was earned.

If you thing that good things done outside of CAP cannot be recognised in CAP.....then you MUST also accept that bad things that happen outside of CAP MUST like wise be ignored.

[lordmonar]

The Silver Medal of Valor most certainly is the CAP equivalent of the Medal of Honor.  That doesn't mean that they are equal in the grand scheme of things, but in so far as the SMOV is the highest CAP award for valor as the MoH for those in the military, they are equivalent.  That being said, they are unequal in the sense that if someone with a MoH joined CAP, the MoH would have higher precedence in ribbon wear on his CAP uniform. 

That being said, it would be idiotic to give someone the CAP SMOV for an act that earned them the MoH, Silver Star, or any other military decoration for that matter.  If someone earns an award for something that they have done in their capacity in another organization, there is no need for CAP to give them a separate award.  I don't like, but can live with, CAP giving awards for stuff done off CAP duty when acting as Joe Blow Citizen, but not if they were doing it as part of their job or with another group.

Let me point out a some of the thing Sully Sulenburger got.

He was made an honorary policeman from his local police department.
He was given the keys to the city of his home town.
He was given the Medal of Valor from his local fire department.

There here many organisations, cities, states and individuals who honored him....

My point is that we honor people who show great credit upon themselves and our ogranisation.   Just because someone else also shows them honor does not mean we can't as well.

Back to the "if it did not happen on CAP time....it did not happen" mentality.....if you honest with yourself you will see how falty that logic is.

And let's not bring politics into this.   Yes we all know that who you know is sometimes more important then what you did......but just because it was abused in the past...does not mean we have to throw the baby out with the bath water.

[lordmonar]

I think it's probably safe to say that there are far more SMV's out there than there are MOHs.

You are wrong.  There are around 450 SMOV and BMOV out there...there has been 3455 recipients of the MOH since it's inception in 1862.

They are not equivalent awards, they are presented in a very different manner, and the SMV does not hold near the distinction of the MOH.

The are equivalent......that is they are both the highest award possible by the two different organisation.  No one is/has/will ever suggest that the are equivalent in the sense that they have the same standards, same award authority, same distinction or same prestige.  To bring this up only muddies the arguments we are trying to make.

When's the last time you heard about an SMV recipient? How about the Medal of Honor? Big difference.

Yes they are....but that is not the point anyone is trying to make.

I am not saying that the SMV is not a distinctive award, but it's very different than the highest award that can be presented to a military member.

River beat me to it....I should read the whole thread before I start responding 

[Eclipse]

The community service ribbon cannot have anything to do with CAP.  If CAP organises the activity then the hours do not count.

A CAP commander must approve of the activity and be aware it is happening, including reviewing reports from whomever is substantiating.  It is absolutely connected to CAP.

Recruiting does not count when it is a CAP run recruiting booth or acitivity.   It must be a cadet or Senior Member making the sale on his own time.

No such restriction exists.  It's whomever's CAPID is on the new member's application. Period. And if you're recruiting someone to CAP, that is "CAP time".

CAP does not have a marksman program.  We may shoot some times at CAP activities....and maybe have the opprotunity at CAP activities....but in the context of the original badge....it was during NRA time that it was earned.

Correct, and since we aren't awarding the badge, simply allowing it's wear, I don't understand why you raised it in this discussion.

[lordmonar]

Well....it all comes down to being constant.

It makes no sense to punish CAP members for outside events....but not also reward them.

[AirDX]

I think the best reason not to chase a MOH with a CAP SMOV is just that it's tacky.  Find a way to honor the individual - maybe an honorary life membership.  But another medal that may be our highest but certainly not on a par with the MOH - it just feels wrong.

As I was reading this thread I went to a site that has all the MOH citations on it.  I read about 6, and had to stop - I was tearing up.  These are stories of incredible self-sacrifice and heroism.  Don't even try to equate it with anything else.

[flyboy53]

I understand the whole point is to recognize CAP-wise such an incredible feat, but when I said I'd be on the phone talking to those up the chain of command, I specifically meant that higher headquarters should be the ones who decide what type of recognition is best warranted.

These days, I've seen so many people promoted to colonels for different types of special achievement.  I wouldn't be at all surprised if that type of recognition isn't on the table as an option.

And no, I've never considered a SMV anywhere close to a MOH. SMV similar to a Silver Star, maybe, but the MOH stands alone -- as it should in all circles because it is considered the American military's pinacle of decorations. There have been a fortunte handful who have actually earned it twice. For that reason, you don't see anything close to it from a National Guard perspective or anywhere else in the DoD. Why should there be....

And by the way, some intesting facts for those of you who are trying to compare the two medals. If there are more MOHs, it is only because the decoration dates from the Civil War when there were an extimated 30 some medals given each month of the conflict, sometimes while the recipients were still on the field of battle.

These days, a recommendation does undergo an extensive amount of scrutiny to not only make sure that the individual's actions can be verified, but also because the potential recipient must be able to withstand public eye especially in these days of the Internet.

Considering what one former HWSRN did to achieve the medal, I would hope that any future awards undergo an equal amount of scrutiny and I wouldn't be so quick to recommend it as a CAP option.

[Hawk200]

They are not equivalent awards, they are presented in a very different manner, and the SMV does not hold near the distinction of the MOH.

The are equivalent......that is they are both the highest award possible by the two different organisation.  No one is/has/will ever suggest that the are equivalent in the sense that they have the same standards, same award authority, same distinction or same prestige.  To bring this up only muddies the arguments we are trying to make.[/quote]
Look up the word "equivalent." You should understand then.

The correction is noted.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Considering what one former HWSRN did to achieve the medal, I would hope that any future awards undergo an equal amount of scrutiny and I wouldn't be so quick to recommend it as a CAP option.

Which is another reason why I support discontinuing both the SMOV and BMOV and, with the Air Force's advice and consent, replacing them with the Air Force Civilian Award for Valor, as well as other AF civilian awards, but that's been covered on another thread.



But as far as the "equivalency" argument goes...I tend to stand with Hawk200, they are equivalent awards for different circumstances and different organisations.

British Commonwealth nations have a somewhat similar situation.

British, Canadian, Australian and New Zealand troops' highest award is the Victoria Cross - not open to civilians.

Civilians, however, can earn the George Cross for similar acts of bravery.

[lordmonar]

Look up the word "equivalent." You should understand then.

I understand the word and stand by it.

CAP's highest award is the SMOV.  The U.S. Military's highest award the MOH.  The UK's highest military award is the VC (Victoria Cross).  They are equivalent.

But the largest apple and the largest orange and the largest grapefruit are all equivalent in rank as well....but they are different.

As I said....don't muddy this argument over word choice.

[titanII]

It seems to me that everyone is agreeing about the "equivalence" thing, but their word choice is confusing many. Classic CAP Talk  .

[Hawk200]

Look up the word "equivalent." You should understand then.

I understand the word and stand by it.

CAP's highest award is the SMOV.  The U.S. Military's highest award the MOH.  The UK's highest military award is the VC (Victoria Cross).  They are equivalent.

But the largest apple and the largest orange and the largest grapefruit are all equivalent in rank as well....but they are different.

As I said....don't muddy this argument over word choice.

Not "muddying" the argument, I'm sticking to the true definition of terminology. People using their own definitions is part of why there are communications problems.

[JeffDG]

British, Canadian, Australian and New Zealand troops' highest award is the Victoria Cross - not open to civilians.

To be precise, members of the Canadian Forces have not been eligible to be awarded the VC since 1972.  It was replaced in 1993 by the Canadian Victoria's Cross, which has actually never been awarded yet.

[flyboy53]

Equivalent, how:

Source: DoD Manual 1348.33, Vol. 1 November 23, 2010:

8. MEDAL OF HONOR
a. Introduction. The MOH is the highest and most prestigious U.S. military medal. It is awarded by the President of the United States in the name of Congress. Authority to award the MOH is contained in sections 3741, 6241, and 8741 of Reference (j).
b. Award Category. Personal Performance Award.
c. Eligibility Requirements
(1) Eligibility Criteria
(a) In accordance with sections 3741, 6241, and 8741 of Reference (j), the MOH may be awarded to members of the U.S. Armed Forces who distinguish themselves conspicuously by gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of their lives above and beyond the call of duty under any of the following circumstances:
1. While engaged in an action against an enemy of the United States.
2. While engaged in military operations involving conflict with an opposing foreign force.
3. While serving with friendly foreign forces engaged in an armed conflict against an opposing armed force in which the United States is not a belligerent party.
(b) The deed performed must have been one of personal bravery or self-sacrifice so conspicuous as to clearly distinguish the individual above his or her comrades and must have involved risk of life.
(c) Proof beyond a reasonable doubt that the Service member performed the valorous action for which they were recommended for the MOH.
(d) While MOH criteria include a requirement for the Service member to risk his or her life, there is NO requirement for the member to be wounded or killed in order to meet the “risk of life” portion of the MOH award criteria.

And From the CAP Knowledgebase: CAPR 39-3, Paragraph 9:

iteria for award of the Silver Medal of Valor and Bronze Medal of Valor involve heroic action at risk of life or safety and are covered in Paragraph 9 of  CAPR 39-3 AWARD OF CAP MEDALS, RIBBONS, AND CERTIFICATES 22 FEBRUARY 2010 CORRECTED COPY

9. Criteria for Awarding Decorations. The following is the minimum criteria established for the consideration of acts or service for CAP decorations.

a. Silver Medal of Valor. Distinguished and conspicuous heroic action, at the risk of life, above and beyond the call of normal duty.

b. Bronze Medal of Valor. Distinguished and conspicuous heroic action where danger to self is probable and known. (NOTE: In cases where a member is credited with saving a human life, but where the act does not meet the criteria for the Silver or Bronze Medal of Valor, the member should be recommended for a Certificate of Recognition for Lifesaving see Paragraph 9h.)

And for the record, the definition of equivalent:

e·quiv·a·lent adjective /iˈkwivələnt/ 


1.Equal in value, amount, function, meaning, etc
- one unit is equivalent to one glass of wine


2.Having the same or a similar effect as
- some regulations are equivalent to censorship


3.Belonging to the same equivalence class.

Perhaps the solution is for one of you fine people to design an appropriate medal to the same valor criteria as the MOH and then let's see if we can get the President to award it in the name of Congress.....that will be a good trick.

[RiverAux]

No one said the criteria were the same, just that the awards had equivalent places in the hierarchy of awards for their respective organizations. 

Sort of like saying that the President of the United States is equivalent to the President (or whatever) of Fiji.  They are both heads of state, but other than that, aren't equal. 

I don't see how this is such a difficult concept to understand. 

[ol'fido]

There's enough hair splitting in this one to send a crate to Locks Of Love. Hold on to your hats, Folks!

[titanII]

Tick Tock Tick Tock- it's the Lock clock

[Eclipse]

No one said the criteria were the same, just that the awards had equivalent places in the hierarchy of awards for their respective organizations. 

Sort of like saying that the President of the United States is equivalent to the President (or whatever) of Fiji.  They are both heads of state, but other than that, aren't equal. 

I don't see how this is such a difficult concept to understand.

OK, to this point, then, while the MOH and SMV may be the top decoration for the respective organizations, placing the organizations on the same level is
presumptuous and self-aggrandizing.

CAP service worthy of an SMV is no more equal to military service worthy of an MOH, than the status and prestige of an award from the President of the United States is equal to one from the President of Fiji.  Just because it's the top dec of the organization, does not mean they have the same relative value.

The idea smacks of a "Me-too" attempt to garner favorable light on CAP through a tenuous connection to the member's receipt of the MOH.

The only way they could possibly be connected, IMHO, would be if through some bizarre coincidence the member performed a MOH-level act of valor
while on military duty with CAP, perhaps a CAP-RAP who takes down plane #5 on 9/11 with a CAP Cessna (Dale? I get a piece of that book) or something equally unlikely.

Otherwise shake his hand, invite him to speak and tell his tale, and leave him to have already received the highest award he possibly can.

[RiverAux]

I think you forgot that I did not endorse giving the SMOV out to someone with the MoH and I'm not sure that anyone here actually has.   And I have already said that these awards are in no way similar in prestige.  So don't try sticking me with that.

If you can't accept the plain statement of fact that the SMOV and MoH are equivalent in status WITHIN the organization that awards them, there isn't much more that I'm going to be able to say.   

And if we can no longer compare CAP to the military I think you may have to re-think hundreds of your posts. 

[Eclipse]

I think you forgot that I did not endorse giving the SMOV out to someone with the MoH and I'm not sure that anyone here actually has.   And I have already said that these awards are in no way similar in prestige.  So don't try sticking me with that.

After a re-read I saw we mostly agreed.

And if we can no longer compare CAP to the military I think you may have to re-think hundreds of your posts.

There's a difference between comparing similar paramilitary structures with convergent histories and comparing the actual service and mission of those organizations.

[flyboy53]

I think you forgot that I did not endorse giving the SMOV out to someone with the MoH and I'm not sure that anyone here actually has.   And I have already said that these awards are in no way similar in prestige.  So don't try sticking me with that.

After a re-read I saw we mostly agreed.

And if we can no longer compare CAP to the military I think you may have to re-think hundreds of your posts.

There's a difference between comparing similar paramilitary structures with convergent histories and comparing the actual service and mission of those organizations.

Also the issue isn't that the two decorations are equivalent when they aren't. The proper term is to refer to the two medals as the highest decorations of their respective services or organizations.

I was in no way trying to diminish one over the other, I was trying to point out to my learned colleagues of this forum that presenting a SMOV for the actions leading to a MOH in another arena would diminish the Civil Air Patrol decoration as the lesser of the two awards when they should stand alone on their own merit.

Clearly, instead of all the hair splitting, I think what is made apparent through this very good discussion is that there needs to be a standard on what recognition would be appropriate in such situations. If the SMOV is all that is available, fine, but there needs to be something of greater prestige.

When Sgt. Alvin York was cited for his actions in World War I, he received the Distinguished Service Cross and the French Croix de Guerre first and then the MOH afterward. At some point he also receives the French Legion of Honour and 50 other decorations. Sgt. York was also an Honorary Signal Corps Colonel and a colonel in the Tennessee State Guard. I think we can do better that just awarding a SMOV, don't you?

Some time ago one of you posted images of a SMOV as a neck decoration. Why hasn't someone considered recommending that as a higher award to the NHQ folks, but using a new pendant instead. This CAP decoration would then have the status of the highest decoration we can award and with criteria similar to the MOH.

I've read some of the stories behind a few of the SMOVs. Those actions are simply amazing heroics, but they stand on their own and are a testament of the dedication and sacrifice of CAP volunteers. The same goes for those WW II recipients of Ar Medals, but a MOH stands alone. You salute the decoration even when you are senior to the person wearing it. That same prestige doesn't exist with a SMOV. Perhaps it should.

[Hawk200]

CAP service worthy of an SMV is no more equal to military service worthy of an MOH, than the status and prestige of an award from the President of the United States is equal to one from the President of Fiji.  Just because it's the top dec of the organization, does not mean they have the same relative value.

The idea smacks of a "Me-too" attempt to garner favorable light on CAP through a tenuous connection to the member's receipt of the MOH.

This is what I've been thinking. The word "equivalent" was innappropriately used (and inappropriate use does matter, it creates problems).

Also the issue isn't that the two decorations are equivalent when they aren't. The proper term is to refer to the two medals as the highest decorations of their respective services or organizations.

And this is what I was trying to say. I guess I just didn't say it right.

We need to be very careful in what we say, and how it is said. We cannot afford misunderstandings.