A Confirmation of Sorts

[Hawk200]

When you look at a typical Israeli IDF soldier, they aren't exactly the picture of military prim and properness.  Their uniforms are wrinkled, their boots are unshined--and they seldom lose a war.  I'm not saying we shouldn't look good in our uniforms or comply with the regulations in their wear.  But the Israelis have apparently made the decision that it's better to have well trained troops rather than troops that stepped off of a drill team or color guard.

I've also seen Syrian soldiers who also don't look like very good soldiers because their uniforms are dumpy, and, well, from what I've heard from even my Lebanese and Syrian friends, they're not the greatest soldiers in the world.  Perhaps in their case, bad uniforms and the wear thereof means bad soldiers.  But the Israeli soldiers I've seen don't look much better than the Syrians they stare at across the Golan Heights and they are a butt kicking machine.

I dont' really think that's a very fair comparison. The Israeli soldiers I've heard of looking like that do because they spend some long hours on duty, they don't look like crap from the start of the shift. Other armies show up looking like garbage, and it shows in their operations.

It's one thing to pull a twelve hour and look disheveled, it's another thing to show up in the first place looking like you wore your uniform to bed the night before. 

I'd rather have a squadron of CAP members who know how to find lost people, relate to cadets, and educate the public about aviation and aerospace and not have perfect uniforms rather than the other way around. Yes, we should have both.  But life is seldom so clear cut or perfect.  Form needs to follow function, not the other way around, IMHO.

In this case, too, it's not really appropriate. To accept a mediocre appearance in the beginning is the problem.

Too many times we have people showing up trying to look "tacti-kewl", or trying to look like soldiers just off a foot patrol. That's unacceptable. It was once mentioned here by someone that they think the cadet walking in first thing looking like a soldier just trudging off a Chinook with knee pads on their ankles and a forty year old pack looks stupid, not professional.

There are too many examples on the 'Net with people that are wearing unauthorized items or configurations. That creates problems. If every person wearing a blue BDU looks just like the next person wearing a blue BDU; or each person wearing woodland BDU looks just like the next person wearing woodland, then it's uniformity as established by official publication. But the guy that shows in woodlands wearing desert boots because "the Army allows it with theirs" is a problem. If he can't follow one pub, what else is he not following?

I know someone will dispute that it's "just the uniform" pub, they can be fully compliant with everything else. But it doesn't track. I keep seeing more people that don't wear a uniform properly, and they don't know their jobs, or even really much about CAP. They don't spend the time learning what they should, and too often do things a certain way because "this is how so-and-so told me to do it".

If we present an appearance of looking unkempt, people aren't going to be inclined to call us. It's also not valid to say "Well, the public doesn't know what we do, so their opinion doesn't matter". Everyone looks at anyone else and makes the same judgement, whether we choose to admit to it or not. Our appearance is a business card. If you handed someone a wrinkled and stained business card, do you think you're going to be their first choice when they require services?

[tdepp]

When you look at a typical Israeli IDF soldier, they aren't exactly the picture of military prim and properness.  Their uniforms are wrinkled, their boots are unshined--and they seldom lose a war.  I'm not saying we shouldn't look good in our uniforms or comply with the regulations in their wear.  But the Israelis have apparently made the decision that it's better to have well trained troops rather than troops that stepped off of a drill team or color guard.

I've also seen Syrian soldiers who also don't look like very good soldiers because their uniforms are dumpy, and, well, from what I've heard from even my Lebanese and Syrian friends, they're not the greatest soldiers in the world.  Perhaps in their case, bad uniforms and the wear thereof means bad soldiers.  But the Israeli soldiers I've seen don't look much better than the Syrians they stare at across the Golan Heights and they are a butt kicking machine.

I dont' really think that's a very fair comparison. The Israeli soldiers I've heard of looking like that do because they spend some long hours on duty, they don't look like crap from the start of the shift. Other armies show up looking like garbage, and it shows in their operations.

It's one thing to pull a twelve hour and look disheveled, it's another thing to show up in the first place looking like you wore your uniform to bed the night before. 

I'd rather have a squadron of CAP members who know how to find lost people, relate to cadets, and educate the public about aviation and aerospace and not have perfect uniforms rather than the other way around. Yes, we should have both.  But life is seldom so clear cut or perfect.  Form needs to follow function, not the other way around, IMHO.

In this case, too, it's not really appropriate. To accept a mediocre appearance in the beginning is the problem.

Too many times we have people showing up trying to look "tacti-kewl", or trying to look like soldiers just off a foot patrol. That's unacceptable. It was once mentioned here by someone that they think the cadet walking in first thing looking like a soldier just trudging off a Chinook with knee pads on their ankles and a forty year old pack looks stupid, not professional.

There are too many examples on the 'Net with people that are wearing unauthorized items or configurations. That creates problems. If every person wearing a blue BDU looks just like the next person wearing a blue BDU; or each person wearing woodland BDU looks just like the next person wearing woodland, then it's uniformity as established by official publication. But the guy that shows in woodlands wearing desert boots because "the Army allows it with theirs" is a problem. If he can't follow one pub, what else is he not following?

I know someone will dispute that it's "just the uniform" pub, they can be fully compliant with everything else. But it doesn't track. I keep seeing more people that don't wear a uniform properly, and they don't know their jobs, or even really much about CAP. They don't spend the time learning what they should, and too often do things a certain way because "this is how so-and-so told me to do it".

If we present an appearance of looking unkempt, people aren't going to be inclined to call us. It's also not valid to say "Well, the public doesn't know what we do, so their opinion doesn't matter". Everyone looks at anyone else and makes the same judgement, whether we choose to admit to it or not. Our appearance is a business card. If you handed someone a wrinkled and stained business card, do you think you're going to be their first choice when they require services?

I'm guessing the person we find who has been stuck in the wilderness for two days sleeping under a tree and eating berries isn't going to much care if the CAP SM 2d Lt who finds them has their Butter Bars a 1/8" off of their shoulder sleeve seam.

This obsession with uniforms is remarkable.  Yes, follow the regulations and look sharp.  I absolutely try to conform and appreciate it when more senior members advise me on the proper wear of the uniform, insignia, ribbons, and badges.  But there are far more important issues to worry about than whether someone's boots are so shiny they can reflect the sun and melt lead or if their rack of ribbons was just slightly over their pocket. 

[heliodoc]

^^^

WOW, tdepp

You are the man!!  Way too practical for CAP!!

But to a few of us...this has always been the belief.  Wear the uniform sharply, but for those in distress and the unfortunate in All Risk / All Hazard
incidents and environments...the average unfortunate survivor in any situation, isn't "gonna" care what uniform, rank, or how shiny a set of boots are.

CAP needs some more REAL WORLD missions  where they are a support function to many EM and other all risk / all hazard agencies and more than just a Katrina or whatever....not many of those folks/ survivors of incidents are really interested on well peoples clothes are pressed or how many more ribbons one can put on a rack

Some CAPers really need to STEP up out of uniform to their respective EM's angencies and see how real emergency operations are conducted and then see how many AAR's are done about uniforms rather than the mission at hand!!!!!!!!  That will be a TRUE picture that NO one cares about uniforms....its about training and how that training comes together "when the balloon goes up."

[tdepp]

^^^

WOW, tdepp

You are the man!!  Way too practical for CAP!!

But to a few of us...this has always been the belief.  Wear the uniform sharply, but for those in distress and the unfortunate in All Risk / All Hazard
incidents and environments...the average unfortunate survivor in any situation, isn't "gonna" care what uniform, rank, or how shiny a set of boots are.

CAP needs some more REAL WORLD missions  where they are a support function to many EM and other all risk / all hazard agencies and more than just a Katrina or whatever....not many of those folks/ survivors of incidents are really interested on well peoples clothes are pressed or how many more ribbons one can put on a rack

Some CAPers really need to STEP up out of uniform to their respective EM's angencies and see how real emergency operations are conducted and then see how many AAR's are done about uniforms rather than the mission at hand!!!!!!!!  That will be a TRUE picture that NO one cares about uniforms....its about training and how that training comes together "when the balloon goes up."

Helio:
And I'm a lawyer to boot!  Most people don't think we are the most "practical" people in the world, so I take this is a major compliment given my low rank on the karma scale.  Thanks and amen, Brother Helio.

As one of my favorite college English professors said, "Better messy and right rather than neat and wrong." 

Believe me, I understand as an attorney that there is a certain expectation about my personal appearance on the part of the client, the judge, opposing counsel, and other officials when I walk into court, a deposition, or meet with a client for the first time.  I see some attorneys show up to bankruptcy court proceedings without ties and in blue jeans and I think it is unprofessional.  But on the other hand, I've also been around some lawyers who weren't the snazziest dressers who were really good. 

But bottom line, my clients want results or at least the best result possible given the circumstances and for a reasonable price. If I do it while in a pink bunny suit, many would not care. (Yes, the judge and the state bar would care.) 

And same thing on our missions.  I flew a double secret probation mission this week for the USAF as an MS.  I was in the blue corporate flightsuit.  The MP was in the USAF-style sage flightsuit. Our MO was in a polo shirt and gray pants.  Did we match?  No.  Did we do what we needed to do in a safe and effective manner?  Yes.  The USAF didn't come check our uniforms before the mission and say my captains' bars were too far off the seam or that the MO didn't have enough shine on his shoes or the MP had a patch 1/4" too far down his arm.  Uniforms weren't a part of our mission briefing.  Making sure we didn't run into other aircraft was, however.  Yeah, crazy, I know.

Mission first.  Ok, safety first, then the mission.  I think looking good while doing it is important too.  But it is not THE most important thing.  As one of my least favorite comics on the face of the planet, Larry the Cable Guy says, "Git'r done!"  I agree.

[heliodoc]

^^^

Copy all that, sir

NOW....just get ready for CAPTalk flaming to PROOOOCEED!!

Next thing you know some Juliett Alfa in CAP will tell us to stop slapping each other on the back and giving oooodles of congratulations and how blasphemous we are in CAP or someone  who wants to dress down practicality in favor of how a uniform makes us "more professional" in our CAP activities...

Get ready for the CAPTalk uniform flamethrowers.....................

[Stonewall]

Even in (sometimes especially) in the military I get "hardcorp" types arguing the whole mantra of "I'd rather have a troop that knows his job than knows how to look good in uniform".  I always argue that if you can fly a plane, set up a landing zone or write an operations order, you most definitely can follow written guidelines on wearing a uniform.

[lordmonar]

Even in (sometimes especially) in the military I get "hardcorp" types arguing the whole mantra of "I'd rather have a troop that knows his job than knows how to look good in uniform".  I always argue that if you can fly a plane, set up a landing zone or write an operations order, you most definitely can follow written guidelines on wearing a uniform.

As a civilian contractor of course our #1 prioity is giving good service to our customer and making as much profit as possilble (i.e. always looking for ways to keep down costs)...but we too have a dress policy and we do hold our employees to it. 

It is not a big deal....but it IS IMPORTANT.

Same with CAP.

Uniforms are important.  In garrison, in cadet programs they are more important then in the field while doing ES (real or training).

As with most things a sense of perspective must be maintained.

[heliodoc]

You are correct, Stonewall

But I come from that life also

BUT in the current life with emergency management and wildland fire......and the dealings with communities after a disaster in many communities in a Midwestern State......most of those all risk / all hazard operations whether it was a tabletop, drill, functional, full scale exercise, or the real deal disaster........it came down to one thing........

Uniform issues were dealt with on a local level with the supervisors and commanders of units.....the real McCoy comes in with the AAR and in all those exercises and real life disasters.....never did I hear a mention of uniforms...indicating to me as a exercise participant or observer/ controller (OJT) that uniforms in emergency services was near last or never mentioned.   It was all on the training given / received or the actions of community operators, volunteers, etc and how they did their respective jobs and operations, NOT the clothes they wore!!

[Hawk200]

I'm guessing the person we find who has been stuck in the wilderness for two days sleeping under a tree and eating berries isn't going to much care if the CAP SM 2d Lt who finds them has their Butter Bars a 1/8" off of their shoulder sleeve seam.

That's not the kind of crap I'm talking about, and I'm pretty sure you dang well know it. I'm talking about gross violations such as desert boots being worn with our BDUs, the t-shirt that someone is wearing that has the "AC/DC" silkscreen partly visible at the collar, no namtag even though they've been in seven months, and the like. That crap is unacceptable just because you're finding people. It's an excuse, and a poor one.

This obsession with uniforms is remarkable.  Yes, follow the regulations and look sharp.  I absolutely try to conform and appreciate it when more senior members advise me on the proper wear of the uniform, insignia, ribbons, and badges.  But there are far more important issues to worry about than whether someone's boots are so shiny they can reflect the sun and melt lead or if their rack of ribbons was just slightly over their pocket.

It seems like you think it's perfectly acceptable to dismiss compliance with publications because they're "little" details. Then again, your choice to make. But don't complain when it comes back to bite you.

Even in (sometimes especially) in the military I get "hardcorp" types arguing the whole mantra of "I'd rather have a troop that knows his job than knows how to look good in uniform".  I always argue that if you can fly a plane, set up a landing zone or write an operations order, you most definitely can follow written guidelines on wearing a uniform.

That pretty much makes the point. If you ignore publications (and I mean specifically ignore) and can't be bothered to wear a uniform right, people will question your competence in any other area.

Same thing in the civilian world, if you look like a dirtbag, people aren't gonna consider you reliable.

I find it ironic that people want cred with the military, but don't want to bother with the attention to detail factor.

[Gung Ho]

I understand looking good in uniform and it does reflect on the unit as a whole. I've read many posts on uniforms and have come to understand it's going to plague CAP for a long time. We do have many uniforms to wear and we are going to have folks that don't fit in normal reg's. Only question I have is why do we have camo BDU's? Isn't camo for being able to hide from somebody? Seems if we would limit the differant uniforms then it might be easier to conform to a standard. Maybe there is a good reason to wear camo, and if there is please fill me in.

[Hawk200]

I understand looking good in uniform and it does reflect on the unit as a whole.

Many people have different ideas on "what looks good". To some people, if you don't have a mirror shine and a uniform with the stiffness of cardboard, then you "don't look good". That's on the ridiculous side. They get a little miffed when you ask them how much they paid to have it done.

All that's needed is a uniform that is in compliance with the manual. That means required insignia properly placed, clean, pressed, and all appropriate items worn with it. (That means that the leather belt, Jack Daniels hat, or the hiking boots people are wearing with BDUs isn't appropriate). That's all it takes. Too bad there are people that spend more time and energy arguing to justify the wrong rather than just fix it.

Seems if we would limit the differant uniforms then it might be easier to conform to a standard.

One set of uniforms is not going to cure anything. I've seen the same violations with Blue BDUs, and in a lot of cases it's because many people lack ethics, integrity, or other values. Some violations are a result of ignorance, which can be forgiven as long as the person accepts proper correction (correction presented both civilly and privately).

Maybe there is a good reason to wear camo, and if there is please fill me in.

That's the utility uniform that the Air Force wore for twenty years, and being their auxiliary, we wore it too. They were pretty inexpensive due to mass production, and were readily available in good used condition.

[MSgt Van]

From "when do I roll up my sleeves" to this? Holy thread creep Batman...

[jimmydeanno]

The last squadron I was in was using some sort of unwritten nebulous rule about when to wear their sleeves up and down.  When I took over as DCC when it came to be spring, they asked me when they should start wearing their sleeves up. 

If the cadet is cold on a sleeves up day, why am I going to make them keep them up?
If they're hot and would prefer to have their sleeves up, why would I make them keep them down?

People have different levels of comfort.  You may decide that it is hot enough to wear sleeves up at 55 degrees, while the skinny, 12 year old girl is turning blue at that temp.

I always let the cadet determine what is most comfortable for them at the time.  I wasn't unheard of to have the cadets start with their sleeves down, do some sort of activity, roll them up, do a classroom in the A/C, come out with them down, etc.

I have better things to do than monitor whether or not sleeves are up or down on a particular day.

[Gung Ho]

I was thinking they just changed it a decided cadets could not roll up the sleeves at any time.

[lordmonar]

As I said before....in formation it looks better to have everyone the same....sleeves up/down, short/long sleeve, ties/no ties.

As DCC my cadet officers wanted to wear service caps....I made them get wing CC approval and told them if one of them wore it...they all had to wear it.

So they got together and raised the money and made sure that they all had service caps.

In the field I let them wear their sleeves as they wish.

[tdepp]

I'm guessing the person we find who has been stuck in the wilderness for two days sleeping under a tree and eating berries isn't going to much care if the CAP SM 2d Lt who finds them has their Butter Bars a 1/8" off of their shoulder sleeve seam.

That's not the kind of crap I'm talking about, and I'm pretty sure you dang well know it. I'm talking about gross violations such as desert boots being worn with our BDUs, the t-shirt that someone is wearing that has the "AC/DC" silkscreen partly visible at the collar, no namtag even though they've been in seven months, and the like. That crap is unacceptable just because you're finding people. It's an excuse, and a poor one.

This obsession with uniforms is remarkable.  Yes, follow the regulations and look sharp.  I absolutely try to conform and appreciate it when more senior members advise me on the proper wear of the uniform, insignia, ribbons, and badges.  But there are far more important issues to worry about than whether someone's boots are so shiny they can reflect the sun and melt lead or if their rack of ribbons was just slightly over their pocket.

It seems like you think it's perfectly acceptable to dismiss compliance with publications because they're "little" details. Then again, your choice to make. But don't complain when it comes back to bite you.

Even in (sometimes especially) in the military I get "hardcorp" types arguing the whole mantra of "I'd rather have a troop that knows his job than knows how to look good in uniform".  I always argue that if you can fly a plane, set up a landing zone or write an operations order, you most definitely can follow written guidelines on wearing a uniform.

That pretty much makes the point. If you ignore publications (and I mean specifically ignore) and can't be bothered to wear a uniform right, people will question your competence in any other area.

Same thing in the civilian world, if you look like a dirtbag, people aren't gonna consider you reliable.

I find it ironic that people want cred with the military, but don't want to bother with the attention to detail factor.

No where did I say or imply that CAP members should not abide by the uniform regulations or any other regulations.  I'm just saying that in the grand scheme of things, it's better to perform well than look good, but that we should strive to do both. 

Geez, buy them books and buy them books and all they do is lick the pages. 

[JayT]

If you see a cop, a medic, or a fire dawg who looks sloppy, you gotta start to wonder what else their skipping out on. Yes, the person sleeping under the stars for three days with the second degree bones and broken leg doesn't care if you come rolling up looking like the Marines from Aliens, but that's about the other ninety nine percent of the time, it's just sloppy.

If I see a medic with his pants ripped, shirt stained, and four days of beard, good chances I'm gonna also find his bag trashed and his belt a mess, and then I'm gonna start wondering if he's someone I'm gonna want on the rig with me.

[Hawk200]

No where did I say or imply that CAP members should not abide by the uniform regulations or any other regulations.  I'm just saying that in the grand scheme of things, it's better to perform well than look good, but that we should strive to do both.

Not the impression I got from your post. Too many people have this idea that doing a job is more important than appearance. The problem is that many don't seem to realize that appearance is part of the job. All pubs are important. You want to pick and choose what you want, go to a cafeteria.

Geez, buy them books and buy them books and all they do is lick the pages. 

Probably because some aren't smart enough or concerned enough to read them.

[lordmonar]

I got to call BS on that one Hawk.

Looking good is ONE of our jobs.....it is not part of all our jobs.

It is a matter of perspective....and keeping all of our jobs in their right place.

Safety is a job.....sometimes other jobs get stopped or modified because of our safety job.

Operations is a job....as is CP, AE, unfiorms, Equal Opportunity, fincial management.

these are all jobs....some are more important than others.

If all jobs were equal then a failure in one job would be a failure in all.....and that is not possible.

As leaders we often have to make decisions based on conflicting needs, guidances, resources, regulations and urgencies.

We have tools like ORM to help us with some of those conflicting needs...but not always.

Getting the mission done is our job as leaders.  It is our function to get it done.  If that means we have to bend or ignore a regulations then we use our tools to get the mission done.

I have to pick and choose which regulations I am going to follow because many of them are contradictory and/or are detrimental to getting the mission done.

If I need to quit CAP the so be it....but I am getting the mission done.

[Hawk200]

Safety is a job.....sometimes other jobs get stopped or modified because of our safety job.

OK, show me how to perform safety. Show me the job description. I doubt you can satisfactorily.

Safety is how work is performed, not a job to itself.

Operations is a job....as is CP, AE, unfiorms, Equal Opportunity, fincial management.

Separate taskings. I'll accept the difference in semantics.

these are all jobs....some are more important than others.

If all jobs were equal then a failure in one job would be a failure in all.....and that is not possible.

So we can eliminate certain things altogether. If some are more important than others, then the less important aren't needed.

As leaders we often have to make decisions based on conflicting needs, guidances, resources, regulations and urgencies.

We have tools like ORM to help us with some of those conflicting needs...but not always.

Getting the mission done is our job as leaders.  It is our function to get it done.  If that means we have to bend or ignore a regulations then we use our tools to get the mission done.

I have to pick and choose which regulations I am going to follow because many of them are contradictory and/or are detrimental to getting the mission done.

I'll agree that there are contradictory publications. But you're gonna have a serious task at hand convincing me that wearing a uniform improperly is going to improve the chances of mission success in any way, shape or form.

It's a simple thing to wear a uniform right. It's an indicator that other tasks can be performed satisfactorily. As a retired NCO, I know that you used that same yardstick while active duty. The ragbag gets the dirty details that don't require a lot of supervision, the poster child gets the more involved tasks and benefits because they present an appearance that shows attention to detail.

I just don't understand how people can think it's OK to ignore one thing and assume that someone is going to perform any other task properly. That's a double standard.