Training to NASAR Standards?

[NC Hokie]

Since GSAR seems to be the topic du juor lately, I thought I'd throw this out to see what the experts had to say.

My squadron is working to rebuild our GSAR program from the ground up with a handful of senior members and as many cadets as care to participate.  Since we're basically starting from scratch, I've been thinking about training to NASAR standards as much as possible to give everyone some portability if they move on to "real" GSAR and to give our squadron some credibility with the "big boys" and our local customers.  What I'd like to know from those with some knowledge of the NASAR program is how much more we'd have to do to meet the SARTECH II qualifications in addition to the usual GTM requirements.

Any takers?

[isuhawkeye]

I did this a few years ago, and it all depends upon how well trained your people are today.  Academically there is not all that much more material in the SARTECH II, but the Knots, and Land navigation eliminate a lot of CAP testers.  In my experience about 2/3 of CAP participants can pass with just a few hours of additional training. 

To facilitate this our team got together and got a few sets of text books.  We worked through the chapters which wasn't to bad.  When you get this done you can test for the SARTECH III.  Thats a tangible third party validation of knowledge.  You can then go on to the skills for the II. 

[Eclipse]

I'll train to whatever spec I need to and am capable of, but you don't scale your resources based on training, you establish
your mission and customer, and then train to fill the need.

There's no point in spending the time to be a FFIII if your job is law enforcement.

[isuhawkeye]

eclipse, I agree with your statement, but if your already training GTM's its not like your switching disciplines to train to the SARTECH II. 

Unless a lot has changed from my days in CAP ground team SQTR skills are very similar to the SARTECH skills. 

[RiverAux]

Waste of time and money (unless you know someone in NASAR that will administer the tests for free). 
About the only stuff we don't have that NASAR does is the stuff that CAP isn't going to let you do anyway. 

You're going to have to train to CAP standards anyway and if you'd like to supplement that with some stuff from NASAR, thats fine.  But realistically its not the standards that are going to make your ground team, it is coming up with and participating in realistic exercises on a regular basis that will make you stand out. 

The "big boys" are no more likely to have any clue what NASAR stands for than anyone else.  The average county sheriff ain't going to know who they are in most parts of the country. 

Get yourself trained to CAP standards and show them to the locals and I'm positive they will be satisfied.  They'll be happy to have someone with good training covered by someone else's liability insurance compared to the hordes of untrained volunteers that show up wanting to help on big searches. 

[Eclipse]

Unless a lot has changed from my days in CAP ground team SQTR skills are very similar to the SARTECH skills.

It hasn't, and it is.  But to River's point, if CAP isn't going to let me do "x", then there's no point in me training in "x", which gets back to
the mission and the customer.

This constant harping on training to a standard is just a veiled way of insinuating that there is some requirement that we increase our
capabilities to be allowed to exist in the greater ES framework.

There isn't.

"If you need my help, this is what I can do.  If not, no problem.  Good luck with your need..."

[Eclipse]

The other problem challenge is that if CAP starts certifying members to a national standard, inevitably those members will look to leverage that cert for other agencies, at which point CAP could be potentially liable if the member screws up due to bad training.

Considering CAP's more conservative nature, its much more likely, and advantageous, to set the internal standard at or near SARTECH, but not call it that.

[cap235629]

I recently served in the command center on a large scale missing person search under the direction of our local sheriff and EMA.  CAP ground teams were the first "certified" GSAR assets that were fielded.  I took a minute and transcribed the team members quals into NASAR speak (I annotated what the equivalent NASAR cert would be on the roster we provided to the IC)  The first thing that was said was "wow, these kids (her words not mine) have some serious training"  I think the easiest way to communicate our capabilities is to ensure that the GTL at a minimum is familiar with the NASAR certs and can translate CAP Speak into NASAR speak.  We were on scene for 2 days and the teams worked with CAP aircraft, NG helicopters, sheriff's office, fire departments and SAR departments seamlessly.  The County Emergency Management Director and Sheriff awarded a certificate of appreciation to all participants and we are now considered a real asset in the county (especially since the Air Force picked up the tab on this one.....LOL)

[isuhawkeye]

Just so im clear what skill that is taught and tested in the NASAR SARTECH II certification is outside of the scope of CAP?  Unles I am mistaken there is no rescue training, There is no medical training outside of CAP's standards, There is no High angle, or Low angle rope work. 

here is a list of what individuals are tested on.

The written exam includes questions from the following topics:

NIMS Incident Command System
Basic Survival
SAR Clothing
Improvising
Environmental Hazards and First Aid
SAR Ready Pack
Personal Equipment
Travel Skills
Land Navigation & Orienteering
SAR Resources
Search Philosophy
Search Tactics
Handling Evidence
Clue Consciousness
Search Operations
Tracking
Ropes & Rescue Equipment
Legal Aspects for the Searcher

The candidate's performance of SAR skills is evaluated at six practical exam stations involving:

Station #1: Land Navigation: Use of topographic maps and compass.  Candidates complete a course over terrain commonly encountered in the operations area in a specified time frame, not to exceed 600 meters.
Station #2: Tracking: Candidates identify and mark a footprint track left by the evaluator and follow the track to its end.
Station #3: 24-hour Pack: Candidates demonstrate the ability to possess and pack the required SAR equipment and supplies efficiently.
Station #4: Rope Skills: Candidates demonstrate the ability to tie four basic knots and a harness with supplied rope and webbing.
Station #5: Route Search: This station entails locating and labeling clues in a given area demonstrating the ability to detect 50% of the clues using a route search tactic.
Station #6: Area Search: This station entails locating and labeling clues in a given area demonstrating the ability to detect 50% of the clues using an area search tactic.


My experience is that those CAP members who become nasar Certified have a much better appreciation for what CAP is, and how it traines its people.  I will qualify this by saying that I do not think that CAP should train to the NASAR standards.  I just want to make sure that everyone has an understanding of the certification levels

[Eclipse]

Looks pretty much like what we're doing.

[heliodoc]

Yes it does look like what we are doing..

I would imagine NASAR charges for their exams for the the examiners time and their operational kitty and their dues structure same to exist like CAP.

I'll stand down on national standards and certification for awhile.  It will be interesting to see what come out from HR1178 and how we are selling CAP to Congress and the Senate to "prove that we are cheaper and force multiplier" to FEMA and DHS.  Is not that the thrust CAP wants for itself ...to be a bigger playa in the bigger DHS and FEMA realm for more missions?  Does CAP want to be more than just a water and MRE delivery personnel?  CAP can be good at IA and PA documenting and taking pictures of damaged structure like they have been doing.  So what more does CAP want to do with the FEMA and DHS as far as missions?   More than what we do know may very well depend on credentialing and certification.. do not be surprised if that is what comes out of HR 1178.  I for one will not after going through a number of classes thru out State EOC and Emmittsburg, MD 2 weeks ago

With that logic and thrust for MORE of those types of missions....you can bet credentialing and certification levels will surely come into play.

What is CAP so afraid of in certification and credentialing, anyway?  If CAP wants money in the form of grants from DHS or others, you can surely bet that there are going to be some requirement of the sort.

Not saying it going to happen...but if this is one little ball CAP could be ahead of, MAYBE it would BETTER to DHS and FEMA and other to say...

Hey look CAP has turned a corner..

Again, even though we are not First Responders, certification from a third party wouldn't be so bad.

But again if we are billing ourselves as some resource for FEMA and DHS...then it ought to be the 1AF dictating whether or not CAP is going to be needing certification or credentialing.  NOT some CAP Sqdn CC in the field.

By reading alot of these threads and posts ..there are alot of CAPers desiring to be more than what they are...it is highly evident every time you read CAPTalk...Why aren't we in Haiti, we could do this, we could that, we're better than the average SAR group, sometime CAP approaches the edge by saying saying we know more than County Sheriffs, who by statute are charged with SAR and getting resources to come to the party

I say CAP gets the certifications and credentials when the day comes. In the meantime a Comptroller study about what a good deal to the Federal Gov we are ought to be really tempered.  CAP ought not sell Capitol Hill what it can not deliver until there is more proof of standardization and currency in ALL of CAP 's operation before we even attempt to sell our wares.

[sardak]

NASAR teaches classes and provides certification. SAR TECH(TM) levels are certifications, not classes. One doesn't need to take a NASAR class to receive a SAR TECH certification. NASAR charges for both classes and certifications. Direct from the NASAR website:

The cost of a NASAR training course or certification is made up of three components. The first component is the NASAR certificate fee. These fees are used to pay the cost of the day-to-day expenses of the Education Department. The fees are $55 for NASAR voting and non voting members. The fees are $70 for non-members. If a non-member joins NASAR at the time of a course or certification, and the membership fee is included with the course/certification fee, they will receive a $20 discount on their first year NASAR membership fee (normally $74) and pay the member rate for the course/certification. The membership fee to include is $54. The certification cost will be due each time a person takes a certification exam or any part of the exam. Candidates must pay the certification fee before beginning any portion of the exam.

The second component is the cost of the course text book and varies by course. Please refer to the NASAR Bookstore online for these costs.

The third component is the instructor's expenses and fees. NASAR instructors operate as independent contractors and each has the responsibility to establish his or her own fees over and above the NASAR certificate and textbook fees. These costs may include travel, meals, rooms, honoraria, AV equipment rental, classroom rental, instructional materials and others. The amount charged to each student will vary depending on the instructor and the course.  Please check with your individual instructor for the final cost of your course or certification.

The SAR TECH III/II certification criteria document (55 pages) is available here:
http://www.nasar.org/nasar/downloads/SARTECH_III,_II_02,_2003.pdf

SAR TECH I (37 pages) is available here:
http://www.nasar.org/nasar/downloads/SARTECH_I_Criteria_02,_2003.pdf

FEMA is required to adopt national consensus standards, when available, for its credentialing and typing. Since SAR TECH is a certification, not a standard, FEMA can't adopt SAR TECH. What the FEMA SAR Working Group is adopting are ASTM SAR standards and NFPA standards.

SAR TECH(TM) complies with the ASTM standards. CAP's programs, with some tweaking, could meet the ASTM standards.

Mike
NASAR Standards Manager
Chairman, ASTM Subcommittee F32.02 on SAR Operations and Management

[heliodoc]

Thank you for the details, Mike

Also for the clarification ATSM and certification. 

Hopefully CAPers here see what you have delivered.... nonetheless certification and standards are out there hovering, for lack of better terms.

At a bare minimum CAP ought teach and conduct itself to those ATSM standards not just CAP "standards."  This could be the bare mins that FEMA and DHS could want of us, I would imagine, for all our wanting of DHS and HLS missions

Don't know your personal feelings at the moment, Mike.  Think I am that far off in thinkin'?

[NC Hokie]

You're going to have to train to CAP standards anyway and if you'd like to supplement that with some stuff from NASAR, thats fine.

That's sort of what I'm getting at; look at a SQTR, see what tasks align with the SAR TECH II tasks, and train to those standards if they exceed the CAP requirements.  The idea is to keep the same skill set but work to ensure that those skills meet (or exceed) the standards that organizations outside of CAP are adopting.

Considering CAP's more conservative nature, its much more likely, and advantageous, to set the internal standard at or near SARTECH, but not call it that.

This is basically what I'm interested in doing, just on a local level.

FEMA is required to adopt national consensus standards, when available, for its credentialing and typing. Since SAR TECH is a certification, not a standard, FEMA can't adopt SAR TECH. What the FEMA SAR Working Group is adopting are ASTM SAR standards and NFPA standards.

Thanks for the correction.  Are these standards available online anywhere, or would it be sufficient to adapt the SAR TECH criteria since they follow ASTM standards?

[Larry Mangum]

As a side note, when I attended AFRCC's Inland Sar course, the instructor was pretty derogatory to not only CAP, but to NASAR as well. He kept referring to them as "NASAR Killers". 

Actually national has looked at the NASAR requirements and found that one of the biggest issues is not only the cost of the certifications, but finding people to administer the tests. 

On another side note, if you were properly trained as a GTM in accordance with the training guide, you can pass the SARTECH III exam, without addition training. At least I know I did.

[Nick]

So, I got around to re-reading the FEMA Credentialing standards for SAR personnel: http://www.fema.gov/pdf/emergency/nims/sar_jobtitle_111806.pdf

Looks to me like we (as an organization) are about to get voted off Interagency Island if we don't step up our internal standards ... check out page 86.

[isuhawkeye]

I am a fan of this standard, but be aware of the fact that this is document is dated 2006, and is still being debated professionally.

[Nick]

I am a fan of this standard, but be aware of the fact that this is document is dated 2006, and is still being debated professionally.

I know, but these standards (or something really close) are inevitable and whatever is the final product will still be closer to that document and farther from where we are.

[ZigZag911]

Two points:

1) NASAR materials are excellent for training resources; tests are extensive, difficult, and expensive
2) more recent national credentialing document (sorry, can't find it just now), something from late 2008-early 2009, listed a radio direction team (much like our UDF)...also had skill levels/equipment & personnel requirements for the various resource types...CAP GTs would probably qualify as level 3 or 4

[MikeD]

FEMA is required to adopt national consensus standards, when available, for its credentialing and typing. Since SAR TECH is a certification, not a standard, FEMA can't adopt SAR TECH. What the FEMA SAR Working Group is adopting are ASTM SAR standards and NFPA standards.

SAR TECH(TM) complies with the ASTM standards. CAP's programs, with some tweaking, could meet the ASTM standards.

Mike
NASAR Standards Manager
Chairman, ASTM Subcommittee F32.02 on SAR Operations and Management

Is this a more reasonable topic of discussion?  Rather then adopt a new set of standards, just tweak ours?  What would it really take?

And if it's something somewhat involved, could we leave GTM3 alone, and tweak GTM2, GTM1, and GTL?  That won't immediately disqualify anyone who already has GTM3 from our current style of missions, but would provide an "upgrade path"?

[sardak]

Are these standards available online anywhere, or would it be sufficient to adapt the SAR TECH criteria since they follow ASTM standards?

At a bare minimum CAP ought to teach and conduct itself to those ATSM standards not just CAP "standards."

ASTM standards are not supposed to be free or available on the Internet (other than from ASTM). The links to the SAR TECH docs are above. Training to the SAR TECH criteria would be OK, however as noted, that doesn't make a person a SAR TECH. The ASTM standard (F2209 for entry level ground searchers, no rescue skills) is more generic and doesn't include the testing methods. The idea is that an organization uses the ASTM standard as the framework to build a training and certification program.

Since CAP is supposedly revising many of the SQTRs, including the Ground Team series, as we're discussing this, it would make incredible sense (which means it won't happen) to write them to fit the ASTM standard (or SAR TECH II, not III).

2) more recent national credentialing document (sorry, can't find it just now), something from late 2008-early 2009, listed a radio direction team (much like our UDF)...also had skill levels/equipment & personnel requirements for the various resource types...CAP GTs would probably qualify as level 3 or 4

Those are in the November 2005 FEMA resource typing document available here: http://www.fema.gov/pdf/emergency/nims/508-8_search_and_rescue_resources.pdf
The radio DF and air search typing has been dropped from the draft 2008 version. The FEMA SAR working group considers them Tier II resources, meaning that they're not resources that would be requested and deployed at a national scale through FEMA or EMAC. Face it, FEMA's correct. CAP, as requested through AFRCC or NORTHCOM, might deploy its resources nationally.

The Wilderness SAR team typing from 2005 is now Land SAR Team typing in the draft 2008 version. Team typing is getting off the topic of personnel credentialing which is what the thread, the ASTM standard and SAR TECH address. Here is what the 2006 "Wilderness Search and Rescue Technician" McLarty referenced has become in the 2008 draft:

SAR Job Title 9: Search and Rescue Technician, Land Description: A Search and Rescue Technician, Land is an entry-level position within a Land SAR Team who searches for and rescues those in distress in land-based, non-technical environments up to and including low angle and possibly scree-type evacuations. Certain specialized environments may require other endorsements,

Fulfillment of requirement(s) as stated in the following standard(s):
1. ASTM F-2209 or equivalent
2. OSHA 29 CFR 1910.120(Q)(6)(i), HazMat Awareness Training or equivalent basic instruction on responding to and operating in a CBRNE incident
3. OSHA 29 CFR 1910.120 and 1910.134(f) and (k), as related to Respiratory Protection, as applicable
Completion of the following baseline criteria:
4. First Aid and CPR
5. Basic Aviation Safety, such as Department of Interior, Aviation Management B-3 course
6. Still and Swiftwater Safety and SAR Awareness as required by the AHJ
7. Confidentiality Issues
8. For drivers: driver's safety, as required by the AHJ
9. Animal evacuations issues
10. Performing non-technical evacuations as required by the AHJ
Completion of the following courses and/or curricula:
11. ICS-100: Introduction to ICS
12. FEMA IS-700: NIMS, An Introduction
Completion of the following baseline criteria:
1. Medical requirements established by the AHJ
2. Minimum physical fitness standards as required by ASTM F2209, 5.5.12 (which says the AHJ).
AHJ = Agency or Authority Having Jurisdiction

Recommended:
1. Minimum of Wilderness First Aid or equivalent
2. ICS-200: Basic ICS
3. Minimum physical fitness standards as required by NWCG Work Capacity Test (moderate-level, NWCG PMS 307) or equivalent

Replies from the SAR WG to the stakeholders indicate that the OSHA respirator and hazmat requirements will be made more of an endorsement type requirement, i.e. SAR personnel will be ordered with these as additional requirements.

The draft 2008 versions were revised by the SAR WG based on inputs from "stakeholders." However, the Office of Management and Budget told FEMA its process was flawed so the revised versions can't be used. The draft 2008 version will have to be sent out for public comment through OMB's website http://www.regulations.gov (there's a CAP Talk thread on this).

Mike

[NavLT]

In my neck of the woods they call all of this "industry Standards".

CAP needs to decide if it wants to meet the industry standards or if they want to put the time and energy into making our standards as accepted as the industry standards.

Nobody at the federal level said (booming music and mountains full of lightning for effect) "thou shalt be NASAR certified or ye shall be cast out of the heavens of GSAR".

The problem is that like National Registry EMT, NASAR has become accepted as a standard even if not grandly endorsed.  CAP has not been so recognized. 

So you can either do NASAR or you can work to get CAP recognized like NASAR is.  Spending lots of time and energy on fussing about why not (whine whine wimper) won't change anything.

And yes some agencies running SAR in some places don't care who you are and who qualified you, but it is in these areas that Joe-Bob (sorry if you are reading this) can show up in a nifty SAR costume and tell everyone his a SAR God and be put in charge with maybee some Cub Scout supervision expereince.

It is a organizational (read National/Region) decision to want to do what it takes to play in this arena, So tell your reps to the national board you want to ante up to the game.

VR
LT J.

[RiverAux]

I'll bet you that 9/10 county sheriffs have never heard of NASAR.  Besides they have no more official standing than CAP and are not the national standard.  The closest thing to that as SARDAK said, is ASTM.

[Eclipse]

I'll bet you that 9/10 county sheriffs have never heard of NASAR.  Besides they have no more official standing than CAP and are not the national standard.  The closest thing to that as SARDAK said, is ASTM.

Yep, that's the issue - there's a a few terms which are thrown around, and a lot of people willing to throw $50 at one certification body, but that doesn't make them the standard.

What "GSAR" means is spongy, too.

The other issue is that when free, professionalized, Congressionally-recognized and funded volunteers show up and say "Where do you need me?"  You don't spend a lot of time nit-picking on their capabilities, and CAP is generally very clear about what we can and can not do.

For the most part it is people trying to turn CAP into a first-responder, technical rescue agency that waste their time about how important
these certs are.  That's not what we do, its not needed for us to do it, and there are other agencies better equipped to  do it.  I can almost guarantee you that any sort of external certification will be the result of that certifying body accepting our existing training curriculum to some level of their cert, not the other way around.

From my personal experience, in most cases of large-scale DR work, we are the more professional and prepared of the volunteer agencies that show up.  I don't personally consider the ARC a "volunteer" agency per-se, because at their level of funding and support they look at lot like a professional organization, and they have a lot of FTE's to set up the infrastructure for the local volunteers. Its not unusual for local FD & PD to ask us to step in and run the EOC and plan operations because they have no experience whatsoever.  Those are the
times when CAP shines, and economics of CAP really work.

We are what we are.  Accept that or apply elsewhere.