ICS

[Flying Pig]

OK....can we all be done with these coveted ICS courses now? 

100, 200, 700, 800.  They all say the same thing.  Please....enough.

[Major Carrales]

OK....can we all be done with these coveted ICS courses now? 

100, 200, 700, 800.  They all say the same thing.  Please....enough.

It is a rote memory thing.

[wuzafuzz]

OK....can we all be done with these coveted ICS courses now? 

100, 200, 700, 800.  They all say the same thing.  Please....enough.

It is a rote memory thing.

The 300 course was more of the same.  Just piled higher and deeper.  I have a NIMS PhD!    

Seriously though, if we don't practice what those courses taught then the entire experience will have been squandered.  But we checked those darn boxes off!  If we, as an organization, actually embrace and use ICS then the training won't have been a waste.  Unnecessarily repetitive, but useful.

[isuhawkeye]

you do NOT have a NIMS PHD!!!

you may have a basic understanding of the material.

NIMS is still in its infancy, and we have a lot of learning, and training left to do.  there are still many years of classes, training, and policy changes on their way. 

[Stonewall]

Seriously though, if we don't practice what those courses taught then the entire experience will have been squandered. 

I agree 100%.  I took 100, 200, 700 and 800 for my Police Dept in May of 2007 and as a preparation for IS 300 this month, I went back and tried to take 100 again without studying or reviewing the material.  I failed it.  20 months had gone by and obviously I forgot enough to have a basic understanding of the content.

[Timbo]

Seriously though, if we don't practice what those courses taught then the entire experience will have been squandered. 

I agree 100%.  I took 100, 200, 700 and 800 for my Police Dept in May of 2007 and as a preparation for IS 300 this month, I went back and tried to take 100 again without studying or reviewing the material.  I failed it.  20 months had gone by and obviously I forgot enough to have a basic understanding of the content.

Which is a prime example of how this requirement will be a "listen, test, pass, forget" issue.  I know many will just do enough to pass the tests, and forget the material.  And it will not be limited to CAP.

Unless re certification requirements are in place this will be just like 9th grade calculus.  Something we all have to take once and then can forget about. 

[heliodoc]

^^^
Correct to all the above posts

Which indicates to me CAP ought to more involved at the local level and invite the Emergency Managers of their communities to at least have some sort of briefing once a quarter or once a year

I know, I know we are all busy... does not prevent a phone call

Just like our SQTR's... everyone says it all performance and hands on


Well folks this one is NOT all hands on.... getting everyone in to the mindset and at least discussing it will keep it somewhat fresh

But I know CAPers,  like Natl and Wing are suffering the SQTR debacle now....  Everyone on trainee status will argue with me all day long

Oh and that wonderful gocivilairpatrol.com....... Can not even get on eservices... everyone is in a tither

[Flying Pig]

you do NOT have a NIMS PHD!!!

you may have a basic understanding of the material.

NIMS is still in its infancy, and we have a lot of learning, and training left to do.  there are still many years of classes, training, and policy changes on their way. 

Uhhhh.....geeee.  Do you think just maybe he might have had some training outside of CAP?  I know, its highly unlikely that someone might have had training outside of CAP, but just maybe.

If this stuff is in its infancy...(which it is not) I will hate to see what this animal looks like in 10 years.   Ive been exposed to this for the last several years as a cop.

[isuhawkeye]

I have only met a few ICS experts, and most of them come from the wild land fire fire community.  true NIMS experts are even harder to find. 

The latest Five-year NIMS training plan marks out future education requirments such as

MAC specific policy and training
NIMS Resource typing
NIMS specific PIO training
NIMS communication and Information management training
NIMS Intrastate mutual aid
ICS Position Specific training courses

many of which are class room based, and still in Pilot testing periods.

unless your leaning way forward in your fox hole we still have quite a ways to go.

feel free to claim that these courses won't apply to CAP

just my 2 cents worth.  sorry for sticking my nose in it.

[heliodoc]

Flying Pig .....

It's constantly changing at the Fed level so I can see the infancy argument..

But for CAP and CAP'ers....... It will remain in infancy until all the membership can get on board

How come CERT (the guys in the green helmets) can get it done and move along.  They are not paid

CAP NEEDS to adopt ... I know the VFD's, paid FD's , and you LE types have had this on your radars for at least the last 5 years

Hang on for the CAP ride and commentary.........

[desertengineer1]

^^^
Correct to all the above posts

Which indicates to me CAP ought to more involved at the local level and invite the Emergency Managers of their communities to at least have some sort of briefing once a quarter or once a year

I know, I know we are all busy... does not prevent a phone call

Just like our SQTR's... everyone says it all performance and hands on


Well folks this one is NOT all hands on.... getting everyone in to the mindset and at least discussing it will keep it somewhat fresh

But I know CAPers,  like Natl and Wing are suffering the SQTR debacle now....  Everyone on trainee status will argue with me all day long

Oh and that wonderful gocivilairpatrol.com....... Can not even get on eservices... everyone is in a tither

eservices is up.  Just verified the trainee status glitch is still active.  However, all information is still in the individual SQTR entry page.

[wuzafuzz]

you do NOT have a NIMS PHD!!!

you may have a basic understanding of the material.

NIMS is still in its infancy, and we have a lot of learning, and training left to do.  there are still many years of classes, training, and policy changes on their way. 

UGH...  It was an attempt at humor that missed the mark.  What I wrote was that ICS 300 Piled the info Higher and Deeper... PhD.  I wasn't actually claiming expert status...joke hits the ground at Mach 3 and burrows a very deep hole.

Flying Pig was right though, I do have experience outside CAP.  It's dated, but it taught me more than the recent ICS classes did.

[wingnut55]

Yes this is pathetic, I agree we need to fall into an line with the rest of the EMS, Search & Rescue, emergency services world.

But eeeGad what a waist of time, did it in about 4 hours all total no wonder NHQ waited for so many years to require this. We still don't match the pimple on the butt of the L.A. county Sheriffs search and rescue Volunteers

Sorry too descriptive?   

HAPPY NEW YEAR ALL

[MikeD]

Yes this is pathetic, I agree we need to fall into an line with the rest of the EMS, Search & Rescue, emergency services world.

But eeeGad what a waist of time, did it in about 4 hours all total no wonder NHQ waited for so many years to require this. We still don't match the pimple on the butt of the L.A. county Sheriffs search and rescue Volunteers

Sorry too descriptive?   

HAPPY NEW YEAR ALL

Do tell, what about them?  I heard we kicked their butts in a SAREX a few months ago? 
(From LA Co's northernmost pimple, Palmcaster)

[ol'fido]

We in CAP tend to confuse qualification with competency. Okay, this person has done the hoop jumping and checked all the boxes, he is qualified and that must mean he's competent. Right? Wrong! Qualification does not necessarily mean competence. A person may be qualified(i.e. have all the quals and ICS courses on his resume') but that does not always tranlate to competence.

Now before anyone says that if someone goes to all this trouble to learn and take the courses they should be competent, remember everybody that grasduates high school gets the same diploma. Some are valedictorians and some get through by the skin of their teeth but they are all "qualified".

Perhaps one answer would be to desdign a CAP course on the lines of SLS, CLC, UCC, or TLC that each wing could put on once, twice, or several times a year that would teach the ICS in a less "see spot run" form. Or maybe add a IDL course in the ICS concept. I don't what the answer is for this, but taking these courses online at EMI and saying we are competent in the ICS is silly. Qualified yes, competent...maybe...

[Short Field]

We in CAP tend to confuse qualification with competency. Okay, this person has done the hoop jumping and checked all the boxes, he is qualified and that must mean he's competent. Right? Wrong! Qualification does not necessarily mean competence. A person may be qualified(i.e. have all the quals and ICS courses on his resume') but that does not always tranlate to competence.

Competence is a major issue.  I don't see the competency issue as caused by taking and passing the courses as with a lot of the people with SET qualifications.   Far too many of them get their SET, then proceed to sign off other members without EVER looking at the appropriate task guide.  The requirement to partiicpate in two Exercise periods on the SQTRs is really weak.  Far too often the "particpation" consists solely of watching the person manning the posiiton and doing a couple of tasks under their supervision.   I see folks that are signed off as ICs who have an extremely hard time even working the AOBD function.    Oh well....just a personal peeve that always puts me on the soapbox.

[Stonewall]

Competence is a major issue. 

I truly believe this could be a completely separate discussion.  No, I'm not joking.

Picture a 350 lb "ground team leader" in very dense woods over a July 4th weekend looking for a missing plane.  Got that image?  Now, picture a helicopter coming to pick him up and take him to a trauma center because of heat stroke.  That was the scene at a 1993 joint search with a local SAR group out of Virginia.  Thank God it wasn't a CAP SM because I was confident that was the next scene.

Face it, becoming qualified in CAP ground SAR or in any other organzation does not require any physical assessment, so as long as you check boxes and can be signed off by someone equally incompetent, you can be the man on the scene to represent the entire SAR community.

[sardak]

This caution regarding ICS-300 is circulating from National.
--------
"...there is an on-line class that many CAP members are considering to meet the requirement for the ICS-300. Members who take this class receive a certificate from the Dept of Agriculture (USDA) that they are submitting as accomplishing the required ICS-300 course.

USDA says in a course description:
[ICS-300] consists of two days of classroom training where the ICS Planning Process is taught and reinforced through exercises. Prior to attending the classroom training, all participants must take the pre-course overview of ICS-300 via the Internet or from a CD-ROM. [This requirement is for an in-house ICS-300 taught by USDA.]

There is a perception by many wings that this will meet the CAP regs. There are already a bunch of these awaiting approval in E-services.

Clearly this certificate does not meet the requirements of the required ICS-300 which cannot be taken on-line. This class and certificate does not meet the CAP requirements for the ICS 300."
-------
Apparently members are taking the on-line pre-course and submitting the cert as their ICS-300 certificate.

Mike

[Short Field]

Thank God it wasn't a CAP SM because I was confident that was the next scene.

But it wasn't and I haven't heard of any CAP SM incidents.    Feel free to not sign-off anyone you feel is not qualified to be on a Ground Team, but you need to have an objective guideline you are following.  What physical fitness standard do we use?  Army? USAF? Navy?  I really don't see out-of-shape SMs pushing themselves beyond their physical abilities.  The out of shape ones do the GTM3 and GTL quals so they can become competent GBDs.   Besides, being in shape didn't help Jim Fixx.

[SJFedor]

Thank God it wasn't a CAP SM because I was confident that was the next scene.

But it wasn't and I haven't heard of any CAP SM incidents.    Feel free to not sign-off anyone you feel is not qualified to be on a Ground Team, but you need to have an objective guideline you are following.  What physical fitness standard do we use?  Army? USAF? Navy?  I really don't see out-of-shape SMs pushing themselves beyond their physical abilities.  The out of shape ones do the GTM3 and GTL quals so they can become competent GBDs.   Besides, being in shape didn't help Jim Fixx.

But are you really a competent GBD if you're too out of shape to do anything other then the 2 sorties each for GTM3 and GTL?