California CN Program Obsolete?

[DG]

This will be the end of CN Ops in CAWG.


California Votes to Legalize Marijuana

SACRAMENTO, Calif. — When California voters head to the polls in November, they will decide whether the state will make history again — this time by legalizing the recreational use of marijuana for adults.

The state was the first to legalize medicinal marijuana use, with voters passing it in 1996. Since then, 14 states have followed California's lead, even though marijuana remains illegal under federal law.

"This is a watershed moment in the decades-long struggle to end failed marijuana prohibition in this country," said Stephen Gutwillig, California director for the Drug Policy Alliance. "We really can't overstate the significance of Californians being the first to have the opportunity to end this public policy disaster."

The California secretary of state's office certified the initiative for the general election ballot Wednesday after it was determined that supporters had gathered enough valid signatures.

The initiative would allow those 21 years and older to possess up to one ounce of marijuana, enough to roll dozens of marijuana cigarettes. Residents also could grow their own crop of the plant in gardens measuring up to 25 square feet.

Proponents of the measure say legalizing marijuana could save the state $200 million a year by reducing public safety costs. At the same time, it could generate tax revenue for local governments.

A Field Poll taken in April found a slim majority of California voters supported legalizing and taxing marijuana to help bridge the state budget deficit.

Those who grow and sell it illegally fear legalization would drive down the price and force them to compete against corporate marijuana cultivators.

[Rotorhead]

Not according to the DEA, which says states can't legalize pot.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Not according to the DEA, which says states can't legalize pot.

That's the whole constitutional argument that states Federal law > State law.

But honestly, I know plenty of folks who smoke weed, and it really is no worse for them than cigarettes.

[FW]

The smog in LA won't just be smog anymore....
The DEA won't go after individual users and (maybe) small legal plots. They already stopped prosecuting medicinal use and supply.   However, it will still be a crime to grow large fields.  I think there will still be a need for a CAWG CN program.  At, least until the growers in northern CA find their profits gone...

[Flying Pig]

But honestly, I know plenty of folks who smoke weed, and it really is no worse for them than cigarettes.

^Yeah...keep thinking that. The marijuana grown today has been cloned and engineered to very high contents of THC.  Marijuana is nothing like a cigarette. 
There will still be marijuana farms in the forests, and there will still be cartels growing it, trafficking weapons, and dealing in all of the other drugs as well.  Just because CA may legalize it, where the states that border CA do not, CA will quickly find itself being overwhelmed by pot farmers both legal and illegal.  There will still be a market for marijuana in 49 other states with CA being the supplier. 
I wonder if the other states have the ability to retaliate against CA for making their drug problem worse, and being able to trace it to CA?  Of course, I do have to wonder whats going on at the border since the Dept of Homeland Security Secretary has ordered the border fence construction halted.
As far as the end of CD?  It will have an impact thats for sure, but it will still be prosecuted federally if thats the case.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Pot compared to other "heavy" drugs is nothing. While I may not agree with how much some of the people I know use it, it certainly doesn't make them:

-Couch Potatos
-Lazy
-Boring

Calling it a gateway drug is also BS. There's a sign in my hometown area put up by the parents of a kid who OD'd on Heroin. Has a picture of a pot leaf, and then "Heroin addiction starts here" below it. I'm sure I can find HUNDREDS of cases where people smoke/smoked pot, but NEVER went to anything else. I'm sorry to the parents of the kid, but I knew him, and his problems were generally with his parents, and led to his drug problem, not stemmed from it. I'm also pretty sure that if he OD'd on heroin, then it wasn't the pot that got him.

How much money nationally do we spend on enforcing laws on pot? How about all other 'illegal substances'?

[blackrain]

But honestly, I know plenty of folks who smoke weed, and it really is no worse for them than cigarettes.

^Yeah...keep thinking that. The marijuana grown today has been cloned and engineered to very high contents of THC.  Marijuana is nothing like a cigarette. 
There will still be marijuana farms in the forests, and there will still be cartels growing it, trafficking weapons, and dealing in all of the other drugs as well.  Just because CA may legalize it, where the states that border CA do not, CA will quickly find itself being overwhelmed by pot farmers both legal and illegal.  There will still be a market for marijuana in 49 other states with CA being the supplier. 
I wonder if the other states have the ability to retaliate against CA for making their drug problem worse, and being able to trace it to CA?  Of course, I do have to wonder whats going on at the border since the Dept of Homeland Security Secretary has ordered the border fence construction halted.
As far as the end of CD?  It will have an impact thats for sure, but it will still be prosecuted federally if thats the case.

I've actually heard some of the highest THC content was found in pot grown in hot houses NORTH  of the border and in Alaska

Maybe this is California's attempted solution to it's budget crisis...........

Oregon,Nevada and Arizona L.E. can make a fortune in seizures on ingress and egress routes out of California. Maybe I can fly for AZ L.E.

[Strick]

Pot compared to other "heavy" drugs is nothing. While I may not agree with how much some of the people I know use it, it certainly doesn't make them:

-Couch Potatos
-Lazy
-Boring

Calling it a gateway drug is also BS. There's a sign in my hometown area put up by the parents of a kid who OD'd on Heroin. Has a picture of a pot leaf, and then "Heroin addiction starts here" below it. I'm sure I can find HUNDREDS of cases where people smoke/smoked pot, but NEVER went to anything else. I'm sorry to the parents of the kid, but I knew him, and his problems were generally with his parents, and led to his drug problem, not stemmed from it. I'm also pretty sure that if he OD'd on heroin, then it wasn't the pot that got him.

How much money nationally do we spend on enforcing laws on pot? How about all other 'illegal substances'?







Go work a street beat in a high crime area................Dont drink the liberal cool aiid!!!!!!!!

[lordmonar]

I know where flying pig is coming from as he is a police officer and of course sees the dirty end of this stick everyday.

However....I got to throw the BS flag on this one.

Legalsing marijuana allows the government to control it better.  The illegal cartels will go away because users will be able to get their supply from a legal grower who will be able to sell it cheaper with better quality control.

Sure there will be "illegal" pot farmers (those who grow more then 25 square feet) and try to sell their surplus outside the state, but that is a whole lot easier to control then what we have now.

Also look at all the side crime associated with illegal drugs.

We have junkies holding 7-11s to get the $50 they need to buy their drugs.  Legal drug will be much cheaper reducing the need for junkies to result to this level of crime.  Same story for prostitution.

Then there is the dealer on dealer crime.  No more turf wars over who owns a particular street corner, no more junkies shooting dealers for their stash or their cash.

Now expand out the the international drug trade.

If Americans can grow and sell their own pot domestically.....no more demand for imported pot.  That means less demand.  Less corruption in countries that are our suppliers, less violence against those trying to stop it, less violence between the cartels.

The way to fight the war on drugs is to make it unprofitable to the drug cartels.  We spend billions on the war on drugs and hardly put a dent in the traffic.

But if we legalise it.....then we pull the rug from under their feet and they will have to scramble to find a new vice to supply.

Look at prohibition in the '20-'30.  Before prohibition the mafia were 2 bit players in their local communities....running gambling, prostitution, theft rings, insurance rackets and loan sharking.

Once prohibition kicked it...they had a market for alcohol and made millions!  Once prohibition went away they moved into the drug market.

Take away the profitability of the drug market by simply underselling them and they will go away by themselves and look for other ways to make money.

We can take the billions we spend on attacking the supply side of the drug problem and use a fraction of that on helping those who really have a "drug problem" and reducing out deficit.

[Major Lord]

I certainly agree that letting California go into competition with the Mexican Drug Cartels will result in more revenue for the State of California. Given our nearly Chicago level of political corruption, I am sure that the people administering the program will be multi-billionaires in no time......

California has gone down this route with illegal gambling, and went into the lottery business. Our policy and numbers rackets still thrive, and the poorest, and stupidest of Californians ( who in truth tend to be the same people) are victims of both Vice peddlers. The revenues expected have never been what was promised, and what little money that has come from this practice has for the most part been absorbed by the administration of the program.

So what next? Legalized prostitution? Animal fights? Bum Fights? How about setting up California as the number one destination for assisted suicide? We could make boatloads of money! How about legalizing retroactive abortion? California could make zillions charging a tax on putting down those unwanted 100th trimester kiddies.

Yes, legalizing alcohol helped eliminate the crime problem, but the gang wars of the thirties are small potatoes compared to the number of people killed every day by the irresponsible use of alcohol. Add marijuana to our current mix of heavy machinery and a fast paced life style, and the death toll will increase dramatically.

I propose a compromise. Be a drug user, agree to forfeit all public assistance and surrender your drivers license and it will all be fine. We could even set up happy camps for people who just want to do dope until they die from Pepsi and Doritos overdoses.

Major Lord

[Майор Хаткевич]

Again, what is this crazy "Reefer Madness" view of pot?

You can't TELL who is a pot smoker around here unless you smell it/see it/know of it.

Wasn't there a story recently about some chemical that is street legal, but basically does what pot does. Guess what, they are selling it for the same prices as weed. So, a chemical developed in a lab is legal, but a natural plant (granted it's considered illegal due to a chemical within) is not?

I don't have hard numbers, but I would assume a large number of those in our prison systems who landed there on drug charges, landed there on marijuana related charges. How many people wouldn't go to jail? How many people wouldn't need to support shady characters to feed their wants? Make it legal with licensing to sell, set a ceiling price, and enjoy the show.

[raivo]

We have junkies holding 7-11s to get the $50 they need to buy their drugs.  Legal drug will be much cheaper reducing the need for junkies to result to this level of crime.

I agree with just about everything but this. Generally people who are that desperate are hooked on something like meth or crack.

[Major Lord]

We can usually tell the Pot Smoker, because he is the one standing around laughing while looking at the car full of people he just killed. I do like the idea of California defying the overreaching of the Federal Government, but your view of prisons filled with harmless marijuana smokers is just.......inaccurate. Prisons for the most part are filled with two major groups of people: The stupid and the evil, with a heavy intersection fitting both categories. I know the image of the psychotic characters in "Reefer Madness" and "Cocaine Fiends" does not show typical dope smoker behavior, but denying that Marijuana is a gateway drug is just ridiculous. Although most people who smoked Dope did not become Heroin addicts, I have never met a heroin addict who did not make his transition to illegal drugs through the gateway of Marijuana. As far as the health aspects go, smoking anything is terrible for your pulmonary system, and marijuana specifically causes chromosome damage and wreaks havoc with hormone levels. (Note: we can also tell you dope smoker guys because lots of you wear bras...) Psychological effects in teenagers include permanent impulse control problems caused by arrested emotional development. Harmless? Not. This is America, so if people want to fry their brain with anything they want, go to it. Just don't ask me to pay for it, or ask to drive a car with an altered brain.

Major Lord

[RiverAux]

Obviously the title of this thread is entirely misleading, which isn't too surprising.

[AirAux]

Gentlemen, and I use that term lightly considering some of the above posts,  This board is open to the public and our cadets.  In the name of publicized DDR program and our stand on this issue, I would really appreciate it if you would stop promoting and encouraging and justifying the use of illegal drugs..  If I have to, I will call our National Commander and get you all in trouble.. Seriously, let's not have this on this board, no matter what your personal feelings are..Thank you..

[Fuzzy]

Do you have her number?   

[Short Field]

We can usually tell the Pot Smoker, because he is the one standing around laughing while looking at the car full of people he just killed.

TV news coverage of accidents around here tend to show a lot more drunk drivers and drivers under the influence of prescription drugs as the cause of the crash than suspected pot smokers.  I have never seen a news photo of a laughing pot smoker at a crash site.

Pot is a gateway drug because you buy it from the same people who are pushing the hard drugs. 

[Jerry Jacobs]

Do you have her number?   

Not to hard to get

[raivo]

Semantical question:

Isn't this unrelated to CN, since marijuana isn't a narcotic?

[Short Field]

If I have to, I will call our National Commander and get you all in trouble..

Wow, we had all better shape up!!! 

[AirAux]

Keep it up Short Field, we do have your Wilson number..

[JC004]

Obviously the title of this thread is entirely misleading, which isn't too surprising.

It should be updated.  It hasn't even been voted on yet, let alone caused an announcement ending the CN/CD program in CAWG.

[lordmonar]

We have junkies holding 7-11s to get the $50 they need to buy their drugs.  Legal drug will be much cheaper reducing the need for junkies to result to this level of crime.

I agree with just about everything but this. Generally people who are that desperate are hooked on something like meth or crack.

Yes I agree....but that brings up a good point.  We throw a lot of people into the pigeon hole "Drug user".  We say....pot is a drug and there are gang wars, prostitution, crime,  murder...et al related to "drugs" but when you break it down to the different sub categories.......Pot is way down on the scale of being a "bad" drug.

But....just for the record....I am a strong advocate of legalizing all drugs....for more or less the same reason I would like to see pot legalized.

It is not that I advocate that everyone should be out using it....it is bad for you....but so are a lot of other legal substances and activities.

We as a society don't seem to want to hold the drug user accountable for his actions....(a casual drug users hardly get any punishment at all) so we attack the source and supply lines instead.

But at the same time we don't seem to want to really spend the money to really make the supply and transportation lines too expensive.

And those are the only two ways you can win the war on drugs.  You either have to attack the demand side of the problem....i.e. making it too risky to even try to get away with it.  Or you attack the supply side of the problem making the end product too expensive for the users to afford.

So...IMHO we don't have the political/moral will to do enough on either side of the war....the Cartels throw more money at the problem then we are willing to throw at it...and they still make a profit.

The only sensible option IMHO is to accept defeat in the War on Drugs.  Accept that we will have to live with the direct effects drugs have on our people (DUIs, health problems, "Drug-oholism" and the like....but attack all the indirect affect of the drug problem (users crime to raise the money, prostitution to get drugs, drug dealer territory wars, pedaling to children to secure a demand, etc).

We legalise them, make strong laws that make DUI a MAJOR offense, we let companies and organisations who don't want drug users (the military for example) able to do the testing they need to do.  We make giving any drug to a minor a very very serious offense.

This will allow business to produce their drugs cheaply because they don't have to spend all the money it takes to pay bribes, protection, threaten people, modify shipping containers and all the other things that they do to counter act our efforts to catch them.  Quality and consistency of the product can be controlled and regulated reducing the incidences of accidental overdose.  It becomes a tax source reducing the deficit and/or funding anti-drug programs.  We save the billions we spend on the war on drugs that we can use to reduce the deficit and/or spend on other programs.

[lordmonar]

Pot is a gateway drug because you buy it from the same people who are pushing the hard drugs.

The argument about gateway drugs is a causal fallacy on par with the "most pilots who crash failed to file a flight plan" mantra we hear all the time.

Yes....almost to a man, all hard drug users used pot first.  But I bet they used alcohol before that....where is the out cry about that being a gateway drug?  I wonder how many hard drug users also smoked tobacco?  Is that a gateway drug as well?  What about caffeine?  Sugar? 

Using one drug does not mean that you will use another. 

[Short Field]

Keep it up Short Field, we do have your Wilson number..

And your Wilson number is?  If you feel froggy, jump.

"The War on Drugs isn't winnable, but it's fundable...It's not only the Drug Enforcement Administration's nearly $20 billion annual budget but government agencies of every kind receive extra funding for drug enforcement..."  Judge JP Gray

It would be nice if we had a drug policy that was actually having an impact on the flow of drugs into this country.  The drug cartels have reach the point in Mexico that they don't fear the government and have started targeting US officials along the border. 

[Майор Хаткевич]

We can usually tell the Pot Smoker, because he is the one standing around laughing while looking at the car full of people he just killed.

I've never seen or heard of anyone being that high on weed. Please cite.

I do like the idea of California defying the overreaching of the Federal Government,

So the constitution is only good when it protects the second amendment?

but your view of prisons filled with harmless marijuana smokers is just.......inaccurate. Prisons for the most part are filled with two major groups of people: The stupid and the evil, with a heavy intersection fitting both categories.

What is the limit in most states? 28 grams? I know people who get more than that, but all for personal use. If they get busted, that just means that they go to jail for "intent to distribute".

but denying that Marijuana is a gateway drug is just ridiculous.

Already been said, but what about tobacco and alcohol? Most people who try pot as teenagers tried cigarettes and alcohol first. 

Although most people who smoked Dope did not become Heroin addicts, I have never met a heroin addict who did not make his transition to illegal drugs through the gateway of Marijuana.

Pot must be rare in Europe (it's not). I've known plenty of people who did heroin with no interest in pot.

(Note: we can also tell you dope smoker guys because lots of you wear bras...)

How many people end up with that out of 1000 casual pot smokers?

Just don't ask me to pay for it, or ask to drive a car with an altered brain.

That's why we have DWUI. Next time you think about having a few beers, please cut up your DL, thanks!

I would really appreciate it if you would stop promoting and encouraging and justifying the use of illegal drugs..

I haven't seen anyone here promote, encourage or justify. Please quote me ONE example. Oh wait, here's one: Cancer patients.

If I have to, I will call our National Commander and get you all in trouble..

Thank you for the warning mother dearest.

P.S. edits aren't working...

[Майор Хаткевич]

P.S.

I can't edit my post...it wont accept the removal of the last [/quote]

[AirAux]

Would you care to explain to me how your statement "But honestly, I know plenty of folks who smoke weed, and it really is no worse for them than cigarettes." doesn't promote, encourage or justify the usage of marijuana?  At the bare minumum it minimizes the impact pot has on the human body and let's cadets know that at least one senior member endorses pot as safe as cigarettes..  You are equating a legal, although unhealthy item to that of an illegal item.  A cadet will not go to jail and lose future rights due to carrying cigarettes, but they sure can carrying pot.  Seriously, have you looked at your posts?  You, as a senior member, should be ashamed of yourself.  If you were in my chain of command, we would have a talk about discretion and public media places.. Your personal opinions are yours, but not necessarily in uniform or when holding yourself out as a member of CAP..  PS, I just realized that you are a cadet Captain.  Double shame on you.  You certainly have no authority to be airing public opinions about drugs that are contrary to our program doctrine..  Now, if you were in my chain of command, we would be talking serious discipline time.  You have younger cadets you are supposed to be setting an example for..  I am going to keep my eye on you..

[wingnut55]

if you smoke Pot and get caught driving, flying, you will go to jail.  working in medical fields, factory work, just about any company will fire you and if you cause an injury you will go to Jail.

I work with kids in Prison and I am here to tell you: You are DEAD wrong about the short term and Long term effects of "POT". It is causing a great deal of psychiatric damage to these kids both psychological and physiological.

But hey people are correct about this forum should not be a place for CAP members to discuss something where some of us risk our lives combating.

40,000 killed in Mexico  DRUG gangs  and pot is one of those drugs.

Terrorist groups are funding their activities through Drugs sales, so you should consider the facts. Not the crap from NORML or your stoned stupid friends.   

[Pylon]

Not according to the DEA, which says states can't legalize pot.

For what it's worth, there's a standing Executive Order from the President directing federal agents and agencies not to pursue or prosecute individuals who are growing/selling/using marijuana under provisions set by state laws.  So while the federal law may very well technically trump the state laws, the feds are not getting into that quagmire at this time.

[raivo]

Discussion is a good thing. Not all laws are fair, rational, or responsible - it would be a rather sad state of affairs for democracy if we stopped debating the wisdom of the various laws of the land, simply because they are laws. (See: health-care reform.) The DoD is currently in the process of considering whether the Don't-Ask-Don't-Tell policy (which has its origins in an outright ban dating from the days of the Continental Army) has a negative or positive effect on the armed forces. Just because something has been the status quo for a long time, doesn't necessarily mean it's correct.

That said, despite the rather petulant way in which certain members have chosen to point it out, I have to agree that this particular public forum is not the place for that kind of discussion.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Would you care to explain to me how your statement "But honestly, I know plenty of folks who smoke weed, and it really is no worse for them than cigarettes." doesn't promote, encourage or justify the usage of marijuana? 

Cigarettes are bad for your health. So is Pot. But the "reefer madness" view of it I have never seen.

40,000 killed in Mexico  DRUG gangs  and pot is one of those drugs.

And if it's not a profitable venture, then it falls off that list, no?

[Hawk200]

Cigarettes are bad for your health. So is Pot. But the "reefer madness" view of it I have never seen.

Never seen the movie myself, nor had any inclination to even look for it. That being said, I don't see how people can use the stuff. The odor is disgustingly nauseating to me.

As to the original post, has there been any official word on the CN program being terminated, or is it just speculation? Grass ain't the only stuff out there to be looking for.

[FARRIER]

I saw the movie, its a joke. If you based your view entirely on this movie, you need your head examined. I got a better  lesson from a narcotics cop, when he came to our high school (this was over 20 years ago).

USAFAux2004 is right in the point some of these post are hypocritical. For us to have an honest discussion, how many of us smoked a cigarette at one time or drank a beer, even just one.

The one thing missing in this discussion is marijuana's use medicanally. There are people in chronic pain, already using prescription pain killers. Some may move over due to cost or the effect it has. It isn't just the 18 and under crowd.

Cigarettes are bad for your health. So is Pot. But the "reefer madness" view of it I have never seen.

Never seen the movie myself, nor had any inclination to even look for it. That being said, I don't see how people can use the stuff. The odor is disgustingly nauseating to me.

As to the original post, has there been any official word on the CN program being terminated, or is it just speculation? Grass ain't the only stuff out there to be looking for.

[Major Lord]

I think the idea that California's legalization of pot will cut down the Mexican Drug importation is in error. There is nothing agricultural that can't be made more cheaply in Mexico than the US, and once Cannabis Sativa is legal in California, it allows a greater number of routes for interstate smuggling of Pot to other States. Since it will be untaxed, and of unregulated potency and content, free-market forces suggest that Mexican drug lords will take full advantage of the situation. Domestic gangs will be able to have legal access to unlimited amounts to be sold across our Washington, Oregon, Nevada, borders, and via our great big Pacific Ocean, all over the free and not so free world. If we can't be part of the solution, by god, lets be part of the problem!

Will Obamacare cover medical marijuana? Doc Breedlove, if you are out there, can I have a "prescription" for dope for foot fungus?

Major Lord

[a2capt]

I think the intent of the thread title was in a "by the will of the people, should the the ballot measure get passed, that the program would be (effectively) terminated", but I don't agree.

If 25 sq. ft is the limit, there will always be someone to push it. The program, the laws, in general, everything would have to evolve with it.

I'm also of the opinion that the whole medical marijuana thing is just a huge joke. Sure, get high, feel no pain. Get high on anything and feel no pain.  The ads in the local free tabloid are amazing. Free dime bags, "free first time discount", easy approval!, doctors on site now! ... the whole thing is just a huge joke.

[Major Lord]

A2capt,

I would have to agree with you for the most part. The efficacy of treating Glaucoma with Pot has been blown out of the water, although I think in terminal diseases involving wasting through nausea and malnutrition, there is some benefit over just conventional drugs ( Compazine, Reglan, etc.) I don't think we should deny terminal patients anything that helps, but clearly, the "legalization " of medical marijuana was a "gateway" to legalizing recreational use. One thing I know about drug users, is that they are the most ardent and well motivated liars in the world. I wonder if the POTUS, an admitted user of Marijuana, has decided to ignore the laws of the United States to promote his agenda.....nahh, that couldn't happen......

Anyway, CAP's search for relevance should probably look beyond CN, an area we are only tangentially  involved in anyway. Its not going to pay the bills.

Major Lord

[Майор Хаткевич]

A2capt,

I would have to agree with you for the most part. The efficacy of treating Glaucoma with Pot has been blown out of the water, although I think in terminal diseases involving wasting through nausea and malnutrition, there is some benefit over just conventional drugs ( Compazine, Reglan, etc.) I don't think we should deny terminal patients anything that helps, but clearly, the "legalization " of medical marijuana was a "gateway" to legalizing recreational use. One thing I know about drug users, is that they are the most ardent and well motivated liars in the world. I wonder if the POTUS, an admitted user of Marijuana, has decided to ignore the laws of the United States to promote his agenda.....nahh, that couldn't happen......

Anyway, CAP's search for relevance should probably look beyond CN, an area we are only tangentially  involved in anyway. Its not going to pay the bills.

Major Lord

POTUS Used marijuana, he is not a user. It's not like President Bush made cocaine legal either.

[Flying Pig]

If you think legalizing all drugs will make the problem go away, you are living in a fantasy world.  Marijuana....ehhhhhh, OK, although addicting, I will submit it is no where near the hard stuff.  However, it is becoming highly addicting because of the cloning and engineering being dont on it. I have seen weed plants that literally have sticky crystals and sap forming on the buds because of the content.
As far as marijuana being a "gateway drug"?  Yes it is.  I prefer to call it a "boundry drug."  In our society, we have social boundries.  People use alcohol and cigarettes because it is socially acceptable.  Has been for years.  In our society, marijuana is that psychological line in the sand for most people that they are not willing to cross. It is the gate or the boundry you make a decision to pass and after you have crossed that line, society considers you a drug user and you consider yourself a drug user whether you want to be honest with yourself or not.  When someone asks you if you have ever used drugs, your answer is "Yes."  Even if it was only once. However, if you are a cigarette smoker, or alcohol drinker and someone asks you if you have ever used drugs, you would answer "No."
When we legalize marijuana, where will the new line be then?  If we legalize all drugs, where does that boundry move to?  Moving in and among these circles, Im not really prepared to see where or what that new line is nor am I prepared to deal with the lowest form of society being allowed to determine that line.  Because its about us over here moving to meet them over there.  I dont see anyone working to actually raise the standards.

Ive worked Narcotics, Gangs, and I am a Federal and Superior Court recognized expert on the sale, transportation and use of illegal drugs, so I guess I have a different take.....
Meth, cocaine, heroin and other hard drugs need to stay illegal simply because they are bad and wrong.  Yes, thats my 3rd grade view of it.   These drugs are not victimless crimes.  The meth addict you see today scratching themselves until they have open sores, walking around twitching and stealing your stuff, neglecting their children and screaming at passing cars will be the same meth/crack/heroin addict you will see if its illegal.  Drug users do not ration their addiction.  They don't save their money for a rainy day for when the price may go up and when they get their drugs, they use it.  All of it.

They will continue to steal, rob and hurt people to get the money to buy more.  And after they have bought more, the cycle begins again.  Making it illegal takes away the tool to discourage its use in the first place, and making it illegal takes away the ability to combat the root cause of a majority of the crimes committed.  Fraud, Identity Theft, Auto Theft, Child abuse and neglect almost always, if you do your research, have a root in illegal drug use and trafficking.  And by suggesting that legalizing it will stop it, you are wrong.  Sure you could tax it, but all of your other crimes will start going through the roof because the by-product of drug abuse and the effect it has on your body doesn't go away because a law made it legal.  Believe me, drug abuse is far from being a victimless crime.

As far as the cartels.  It will do nothing except increase the supply.  They, nor any other dealer will stand by and allow a store to open up in their neighborhood.  Buying it legally will cost more and create a tax that tweekers will not pay.  The cartels will find another drug, make it stronger, and undercut the market price.  Most people making the decision to legalize drugs approach it with the view that "people can do what they want just don't bother me."  The customer base for the Heroin trade is not made up of people who will walk down to the store and get a dime bag.  Do we hold vendors liable for when their customer OD's on heroin?  The store owner who is probably a tweeker himself, should he have had the ability and the mental capacity to tell his fellow hype he has had enough?  Thats what people don't get, they NEVER have enough.  The more you use, the more your body needs to sustain the high or keep you from getting violently sick.
And what happens when you get a customer who doesn't have the money?  Do you think he's going to take "No" for an answer when he is in the onset of withdrawl's and knows he is about to become violently ill? 
The sale of drugs is based on greed. Plain and simple.  The type of person who decides to open up a heroin store is not the type of person who decides to open a florist or an auto repair facility.

Will kids immediately start using illegal drugs because its legal?  Not initially.  But as society begins to accept it, yes they will because their are no longer any consequences.  In my literally thousands of narcotics related arrests, I have never met an addict who had that plan for their life.  All of them started just wanting to see what it was like.   From talking with kids and teenagers many do not have a real idea of what drugs ultimately do to their bodies.  Most are still indestructible and believe they have the ability to just try it and then stop when they are ready.  So with the mindset of believing they can stop, what keeps most kids from using drugs is the view society has on drug users and above all, the fear of getting caught.  And that fear of the consequences is what keeps the lid on the pot (no pun intended).  When it becomes legal, over time it will become acceptable.

Fighting drugs is expensive.  But its the drugs, legal or illegal, that are the root cause of a majority of our problems.  Embracing evil for tax dollars is not a winning deal for anyone.  Nothing will change except that we will have tax dollars and no way to combat the crimes at their root.  All the dope addicts you see around now, the only thing that will change is that the cops will drive right past them.  When our primary justification is revenue and cost, we are headed for major issues.  Im not looking to live in a world where right and wrong are determined by the price tag.

[Eclipse]

POTUS Used marijuana, he is not a user. It's not like President Bush made cocaine legal either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationalization_(psychology)

In psychology and logic, rationalization (or making excuses) is the process of constructing a logical justification for a belief, decision, action or lack thereof that was originally arrived at through a different mental process. It is a defense mechanism in which perceived controversial behaviors or feelings are explained in a rational or logical manner to avoid the true explanation of the behavior or feeling in question. It is also an informal fallacy of reasoning.

[Майор Хаткевич]

POTUS Used marijuana, he is not a user. It's not like President Bush made cocaine legal either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationalization_(psychology)

In psychology and logic, rationalization (or making excuses) is the process of constructing a logical justification for a belief, decision, action or lack thereof that was originally arrived at through a different mental process. It is a defense mechanism in which perceived controversial behaviors or feelings are explained in a rational or logical manner to avoid the true explanation of the behavior or feeling in question. It is also an informal fallacy of reasoning.

And what exactly did I rationalize? Major Lord made his writing imply that the President is a current marijuana smoker.

[Flying Pig]

Not according to the DEA, which says states can't legalize pot.

For what it's worth, there's a standing Executive Order from the President directing federal agents and agencies not to pursue or prosecute individuals who are growing/selling/using marijuana under provisions set by state laws.  So while the federal law may very well technically trump the state laws, the feds are not getting into that quagmire at this time.

Executive Orders do not cancel existing laws.  Thats why we are a Republic.  The President isnt a King who can wipe away laws at the stroke of a pen. I can assure you the DEA is still going after marijuana growers and dealers.  Either that or I just spent the last week wasting a lot of time.

[DogCollar]

Because of the use of marijuana by friends and family, I have a lot of personal pain associated with this topic.  Putting it bluntly, in no way, shape or form should marijuana EVER be legalized!  Medicinally, there are legal medications that are much more effective at controlling pain, nausea and appetite stimulation.  The medicinal attributes of pot is highly overrated.

Because of hybredinization, the THC in marijuana is 70% to 120% higher than it was in the 1970's.  This is NOT your fathers' Pot!!  It is highly psychologically addictive.

Lastly, too many young people are abusing this drug and suddenly finding themselves engaged in the criminal justice system, ruining a significant portion of their futures.

Again, I freely admit that I have strong opinions regarding this issue.  But those opinions are formed through personal and professional experiences over a long period of time.

[Eclipse]

I took your statement as justification for use (USAFAUX2004).

I agree 100% that legalization is not a solution.

[Mustang]

In terms of danger to society, marijuana is not the problem.  Crystal Methamphetamine, heroin, and cocaine are. 

[raivo]

In terms of danger to society, marijuana is not the problem.  Crystal Methamphetamine, heroin, and cocaine are.

Meth is beyond scary. If even half the horror stories I've read about it are true...

[Hoorah]

This will be the end of CN Ops in CAWG.


California Votes to Legalize Marijuana

SACRAMENTO, Calif. — When California voters head to the polls in November, they will decide whether the state will make history again — this time by legalizing the recreational use of marijuana for adults.

The state was the first to legalize medicinal marijuana use, with voters passing it in 1996. Since then, 14 states have followed California's lead, even though marijuana remains illegal under federal law.

"This is a watershed moment in the decades-long struggle to end failed marijuana prohibition in this country," said Stephen Gutwillig, California director for the Drug Policy Alliance. "We really can't overstate the significance of Californians being the first to have the opportunity to end this public policy disaster."

The California secretary of state's office certified the initiative for the general election ballot Wednesday after it was determined that supporters had gathered enough valid signatures.

The initiative would allow those 21 years and older to possess up to one ounce of marijuana, enough to roll dozens of marijuana cigarettes. Residents also could grow their own crop of the plant in gardens measuring up to 25 square feet.

Proponents of the measure say legalizing marijuana could save the state $200 million a year by reducing public safety costs. At the same time, it could generate tax revenue for local governments.

A Field Poll taken in April found a slim majority of California voters supported legalizing and taxing marijuana to help bridge the state budget deficit.

Those who grow and sell it illegally fear legalization would drive down the price and force them to compete against corporate marijuana cultivators.

What is CN.

[Flying Pig]

Counter Narcotics. It is actually called Counter Drug (CD)  CAP doesnt refer to it as CN.

[raivo]

Technicalities, but marijuana isn't a narcotic.

[davidsinn]

Counter Narcotics. It is actually called Counter Drug (CD)  CAP doesnt refer to it as CN.

Not to be confused with Character Development(CD)

[Major Lord]

Technicalities, but marijuana isn't a narcotic.

You are right, its not Opioid, but the legal definitions and jurisdictional issues redefined the word:

United Nations

A looser usage of the word "narcotic" to refer to any illegal or unlawfully possessed drug including marijuana and cocaine is common worldwide, although these substances are not considered narcotics in a medical or scientific context. The central drug policy making body within the United Nations, for instance, is the Commission on Narcotic Drugs, although the United Nations officially defines a narcotic drug to be "any of the substances, natural or synthetic, in Schedules I and II of the Single Convention on Narcotic Drugs, 1961, and that Convention as amended by the 1972 Protocol Amending the Single Convention on Narcotic Drugs, 1961"[5] Used in this manner the word "narcotic" is a useful if not wholly accurate label to denote any drug that is subject to the U.S. Controlled Substances Act, or similar legislation elsewhere.

Drugs are defined according to a specific group of subsets for criminal purposes ( "Schedules") but these have little to do with their medical taxonomy. Marijuana is technically a "Hypnotic" class of drug.

Major Lord

[a2capt]

Not to be confused with Character Development(CD)

But.. some interesting Characters can be Developed along the way .. even with just pot ;-)

[Pumbaa]

California is thinking of this for a simple reason...

Everyone will be so stoned they will forget the financial problems the state is in!

[PHall]

California is thinking of this for a simple reason...

Everyone will be so stoned they will forget the financial problems the state is in!

Two words.....   TAX INCOME

Pot is about the only "vice" that the State of California doesn't tax.

[Pirmasens]

You know, after working overseas for over 30 years defending your country and watching your counrty go down the pan for the sake of something stupid like money is really sad. Legalization of drugs, litigation, complacency, and ignoring illegal alien problems, there is nobody to take a stand. Everyone is a liberal, except the bad guy, he knows what he wants and he has taken the time to know his "enemy". This is why they are sucessful to now, peacemeal response from defending entities argueing over jurisdiction, can you not see we are all on the same side?? It does little good to complain, you feel bad about looking down an abyss, and some profit-minded so-and-so is telling you its fine-its okay-yotta-yotta-yotta. Its not fine! And if profit-minded individuals at upper level were replaced with patriotic types, this whole business would be repaired in record time. Well I didn't really want to make a speech, but this latest news is too much. Out here.........

[Flying Pig]

I was tracking with you the first couple sentences and then...........

Welcome aboard though

[JC004]

California is thinking of this for a simple reason...

Everyone will be so stoned they will forget the financial problems the state is in!

Two words.....   TAX INCOME

Pot is about the only "vice" that the State of California doesn't tax.

About the only thing in general that they don't tax.   

[PHall]

California is thinking of this for a simple reason...

Everyone will be so stoned they will forget the financial problems the state is in!

Two words.....   TAX INCOME

Pot is about the only "vice" that the State of California doesn't tax.

About the only thing in general that they don't tax.   

Kinda hard to tax something that is illegal to even process.

[Pumbaa]

...make it legal, then they tax it.

The new mission is to spot the growers and then, they get taxed....

So the outcome goes from the Po Po to the Ta Po

[RADIOMAN015]

Frankly this is a program that CAP shouldn't have gotten involved in, in the first place.   The total lack of OPSEC is unbelievable.  There's been stories in the press in the past even telling where our airplanes where stationed , and the same commanders' bragging about how much weed was found etc.

There's plenty of law enforcement aero assets (especially in CA) that could be used for this program.   

This program should have been run as black ops so to speak, and the public disclosure could have been something along the lines of "in addition to diaster relief efforts, CAP on occassion, may provide limited confidential recon/photo services for other federal law enforcement agencies".
Even screening for these missions, could have handled as a "special screen" for a federal agency.

RM

[Rotorhead]

Not according to the DEA, which says states can't legalize pot.

For what it's worth, there's a standing Executive Order from the President directing federal agents and agencies not to pursue or prosecute individuals who are growing/selling/using marijuana under provisions set by state laws.  So while the federal law may very well technically trump the state laws, the feds are not getting into that quagmire at this time.

Executive Orders do not cancel existing laws.  Thats why we are a Republic.  The President isnt a King who can wipe away laws at the stroke of a pen. I can assure you the DEA is still going after marijuana growers and dealers.  Either that or I just spent the last week wasting a lot of time.

DEA is still busting medical pot dispensaries even where local laws allow them.

[Flying Pig]

Frankly this is a program that CAP shouldn't have gotten involved in, in the first place.   The total lack of OPSEC is unbelievable.  There's been stories in the press in the past even telling where our airplanes where stationed , and the same commanders' bragging about how much weed was found etc.

There's plenty of law enforcement aero assets (especially in CA) that could be used for this program.   

This program should have been run as black ops so to speak, and the public disclosure could have been something along the lines of "in addition to diaster relief efforts, CAP on occassion, may provide limited confidential recon/photo services for other federal law enforcement agencies".
Even screening for these missions, could have handled as a "special screen" for a federal agency.

RM

CD is very much a worth while program.  As far as there being plenty of LE air assets in CA that can be used for it.  Who? Where? and who's going to pay for it and staff it?  CAP has the ability to provide a funded service to LE using non-paid violunteers with no concern  to the agency about who is going to pay for it.   Agencies without aircraft do not get to just call up and borrow another departments aircraft.  I know in someones Utopia it should work that way.
If my agency "loans" our plane or helicopter and pilot to another agency for a case, they get bill in the mail after that case is done.  They get billed the pilots salary, and the market cost of what it would normally cost for them to rent a comparable aircraft.   And then here comes CAP who says "You can use ours for free."  Sure there are missions CAP cannot perform, but you take what you can get.
As far as lack of OPSEC?  I havn't seen any real issues.  LE aircraft sit out on the ramp as well, completely exposed to people walking by.  For press releases, I have seen nothing more than our PIO does at work after we bust someone.  In fact, I have seen LE PIOs stick their foot in their mouths far more times than I have seen anyone from CAP do it.  Usually, CAP members are afraid to say anything at all!
The screening process was not set up by CAP, it was set up and is run by the federal agencies we support, and they are happy with it. The agencies we support love the service we provide. 

[capchiro]

CN is very alive and well in Georgia.  It makes for an interesting part of the program for seniors and pays for a great deal of flight time.  It is also widely appreciated by the LE agencies we work with..

[Major Lord]

Its hard to imagine a cheaper source of air assets than CAP ( Although, no doubt, there are  pilots out there who would contribute their own time , aircraft, and fuel to help stop the illegal immigration and drug trade flowing across our borders) CAP has also been more or less exempted from "restrictions" placed on the real military by the Posse Comitatus Act, at least in this regard.

Major Lord

[PHall]

Its hard to imagine a cheaper source of air assets than CAP ( Although, no doubt, there are  pilots out there who would contribute their own time , aircraft, and fuel to help stop the illegal immigration and drug trade flowing across our borders) CAP has also been more or less exempted from "restrictions" placed on the real military by the Posse Comitatus Act, at least in this regard.

Major Lord

National Guard in "State" status is exempt from Posse Comitatus too, but we're cheaper to use. We also don't draw as much attention.

[Major Lord]

Its hard to imagine a cheaper source of air assets than CAP ( Although, no doubt, there are  pilots out there who would contribute their own time , aircraft, and fuel to help stop the illegal immigration and drug trade flowing across our borders) CAP has also been more or less exempted from "restrictions" placed on the real military by the Posse Comitatus Act, at least in this regard.

Major Lord

National Guard in "State" status is exempt from Posse Comitatus too, but we're cheaper to use. We also don't draw as much attention.

Yeah, like that low key National Guard deployment at Kent State, or Waco, Texas......Probably no one noticed.......Just kidding Phil!

Major Lord

[Flying Pig]

I took his post meaning CAP doesnt draw as much attention.  EVERYONE notices a HH60G sitting at the local FBO!

[Major Lord]

Ahhh, You are probably right. I thought Phil might be in the ANG by now......

Major Lord

[Short Field]

The total lack of OPSEC is unbelievable.  There's been stories in the press in the past even telling where our airplanes where stationed , and the same commanders' bragging about how much weed was found etc.

What has been the Operational Impact due to this publicity?  While a lot of people bemoan the fact, we do live in an open society where government must have a valid reason to keep information from the public.  Waving the OPSEC flag about CAP commanders' bragging about how weed they found would only keep that information from the PUBLIC (our bosses?).  I bet the weed growers know exactly how much weed got found.

[PHall]

Ahhh, You are probably right. I thought Phil might be in the ANG by now......

Major Lord

No, but your kid is.

[Major Lord]

Yup, He is having loads of fun (all classroom so far) to learn the fine art of the Mini-gun. Who would have thought that there would be so much classroom time to learn to fire more ammo in a half hour then most of us fire in a life time? Happiness is a crew served weapon.  He is having a swell time in New Mexico.

Major Lord