"Going Grey at 65:" A Modest Proposal for SM Uniforms

Started by ddelaney103, January 31, 2007, 05:46:32 PM

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ddelaney103

I have been kicking around for some time a "unified field theory" for our uniforms and wanted to expose it to ridicule get input.

I went into this with a few ground rules.  The first was taking the current uniform set as a starting point.  The second was trying to keep the expenses for meeting the new standard to a minimum.  The third was trying to make as many of the accessories for the uniforms standardized across the variations.  This not only saves money, it makes compliance easier, as opposed to trying to keep track of "X goes with the white and blues, Y goes with the white and greys and Z goes with AF-style service."

"Coat and Jacket" Uniforms:

Mess Dress - Replace blue sleeve and shoulder board braid with grey braid.

Blazer - No major changes, but allow the wear of either mini medals or ribbons for formal events.  I can wear AF mini medals on civilian wear IAW 36-2903, we should be able to wear them on the blazer

AF Service Dress - Replace blue sleeve braid with grey braid.  Replace chrome nametag with grey 3-line nametag.  Replace grey embroidered epaulets with plain grey epaulets and pin on metal insignia and CAP cutouts.  NOTE: metal insignia requires AF approval.

TPU - Replace silver sleeve braid with grey braid.  Replace chrome nametag with grey 3-line nametag.  Place pin on metal insignia and CAP cutouts on plain grey epaulets.

"Shirt Sleeve" Uniforms:

white and greys/AF-style service  - No changes

TPU shirt combo - Replace AF epaulets with grey epaulets.  Replace blue 2-line nametag with grey 3-line nametag.

Golf Shirt - Not authorized for operational missions.  Grant exception for missions where golf shirts are the uniforms (for example, in some state command centers most organizations wear golf shirts so it makes sense to fit in). Authorized for proficiency flying.  Treat as work uniform, not service uniform.

"One Piece" Work Uniforms:

AF Flight Suit/CAP Flight Suit/CAP Utility Uniform - Replace plastic grade with full color embroidered on grey grade.  Replace leather name tag with white on grey cloth nametag with CAP Emblem, skill badge, name and "Civil Air Patrol" (no grade).  NOTE: cloth nametag requires AF approval.  Authorize the wear of grey baseball cap or patrol cap.

"Two Piece" Work Uniforms:

BDU/CAP Field Uniform - Replace full color embroidered on blue grade with full color embroidered on grey grade.  Replace white on blue name tape, CIVIL AIR PATROL tape and skill badges with white on grey name tape, CIVIL AIR PATROL tape and skill badges.  Make grey baseball cap or patrol cap the "default" headgear - others may be authorized for wear but everyone will have a grey hat.

"Idle Thoughts"

In a perfect world, I'd go with grey flight caps for SM's - not only would it sync up with the uniform theme, but would provide another point of unification b/w the service style uniforms.  That might be an expensive proposition to produce, but we might be able to drop the CAP badge for medal grade insignia.

I don't see the Cadets adopting any of the service uniform changes, though they could adopt all of the utility uniform changes.  They'd need to add "Cadet" to the flightsuit nametag, however.

Finally, change CAP Customs and Courtesies to require salutes in all uniforms except blazer and golf shirt.  Right now, "To The Colors" would require a salute from those in AF-style and removing of hats and hand over heart from corp types.

afgeo4

GEORGE LURYE

JohnKachenmeister

Another former CAP officer

ddelaney103

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on January 31, 2007, 06:23:06 PM
What!

No grey beret to go with your grey kilts?

I thought about mentioning National Grey Beret, but everyone would bite off on that flare...

ddelaney103

Quote from: afgeo4 on January 31, 2007, 05:55:50 PM
The world is very grey for you, isn't it?  :P

Grey may not have been my first choice, but you work with what you got.  It would be nice to be able to say, "these embroidered epaulets go on the shirt and the ones with the metal pin on grade go on the jackets" instead of, "those grey ones go on that shirt and that jacket, but only put it on that shirt if you're wearing grey pants - put these blue ones on if you wear the blue pants with that shirt."

mikeylikey

What's up monkeys?

DogCollar

Ch. Maj. Bill Boldin, CAP

LtCol White

I see no point in making further mods involving grey items. As we have discussed at length here and on portal, the goal is to attempt to get our uniforms back to how they used to be. This will take some time to convince USAF to approve that move since we have a LOT of work to do with our membership. Given that, we are better off not tinkering with whats there unless it moves us towards fixing things more along the lines of how they used to be.

Mess dress - looks fine with the blue braid. Its our only USAF Uniform that hasn't been damaged.

TPU - Who cares, it already looks ridiculous, leave it alone.

USAF Service Dress - Fine as is until we can do something to get rid of the grey.
LtCol David P. White CAP   
HQ LAWG

Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska

Diplomacy - The ability to tell someone to "Go to hell" and have them look forward to making the trip.

ddelaney103

Quote from: LtCol White on January 31, 2007, 07:31:05 PM
I see no point in making further mods involving grey items. As we have discussed at length here and on portal, the goal is to attempt to get our uniforms back to how they used to be. This will take some time to convince USAF to approve that move since we have a LOT of work to do with our membership. Given that, we are better off not tinkering with whats there unless it moves us towards fixing things more along the lines of how they used to be.

Mess dress - looks fine with the blue braid. Its our only USAF Uniform that hasn't been damaged.

TPU - Who cares, it already looks ridiculous, leave it alone.

USAF Service Dress - Fine as is until we can do something to get rid of the grey.


"How they used to be?" Like our glory days of WWII, when we wore red epaulets and red sleeve braid on our jackets?

There is nothing wrong with looking a little different from USAF, and a lot to be said for trying to make sure all of our people look like they're in the same org.

Frankly, Mess Dress is the most jacked up uniform in the AF inventory.  It is dull as dishwater compared to all of the other services.  Replacing the blue satin lapels and pants stripe with grey would be a big improvement.

The TPU is something on which many people have dropped big bucks.  Simply ignoring it doesn't seem fair.  I suspect we could make it a little more palatable to the AF (if they cared) by adopting the CAP distinctive insignia.  We'd also save our members a little money and a lot of hassle.

floridacyclist

Sorry that you feel that way
The only thing there is to say
Every silver lining's got a
Touch of grey


Gene Floyd, Capt CAP
Wearer of many hats, master of none (but senior-rated in two)
www.tallahasseecap.org
www.rideforfatherhood.org

Pace

Quote from: ddelaney103 on January 31, 2007, 05:46:32 PM
I have been kicking around for some time a "unified field theory" for our uniforms and wanted to expose it to ridicule get input.
If you changed your color of preference to black I might see your point, but grey is worse than what we have now (how long exactly has everyone been complaining about grey epaulets???).

After reading this whole post, there's a box of Just for Men with your name on it.  Maybe it'll soak all the way in and get the grey out of your head.  ;D

QuoteMess Dress - Replace blue sleeve and shoulder board braid with grey braid.
Non-concur.  Leave it alone.  Those items are not shared with any other CAP uniform combination, and that would do exactly what you're trying to avoid...cost lots of people lots of money.

QuoteBlazer - No major changes, but allow the wear of either mini medals or ribbons for formal events.  I can wear AF mini medals on civilian wear IAW 36-2903, we should be able to wear them on the blazer.
Concur.

QuoteAF Service Dress - Replace blue sleeve braid with grey braid.  Replace chrome nametag with grey 3-line nametag.  Replace grey embroidered epaulets with plain grey epaulets and pin on metal insignia and CAP cutouts.  NOTE: metal insignia requires AF approval.
1. Forget colors, why not just remove the sleeve braid?
2. The chrome nametag has been around for several years now, and I have yet to see a problem with its cost or implementation.  Non-concur.
3. How often do senior members get promoted?  Not often enough to break the bank, I think.  Plus, I don't see the point in lowering the quality of the rank slide just to save a few bucks.  Besides, every current member out there would have to buy the "new" rank slides defeating the purpose of saving money.  Non-concur.

QuoteTPU - Replace silver sleeve braid with grey braid.  Replace chrome nametag with grey 3-line nametag.  Place pin on metal insignia and CAP cutouts on plain grey epaulets.
Don't waste your breath or ink on this one.  The TPU was designed to take the epaulet sleeves off the uniform.  Pull the braid off and leave the chrome nametag alone.

Quotewhite and greys/AF-style service  - No changes
Allow professional/well-maintained facial hair in the TPU and get rid of the white and greys.

QuoteTPU shirt combo - Replace AF epaulets with grey epaulets.  Replace blue 2-line nametag with grey 3-line nametag.
Again, don't waste your breath or ink.  The intent was to remove the grey rank slides and grey nametag.

QuoteGolf Shirt - Not authorized for operational missions.  Grant exception for missions where golf shirts are the uniforms (for example, in some state command centers most organizations wear golf shirts so it makes sense to fit in). Authorized for proficiency flying.  Treat as work uniform, not service uniform.
Concur.

QuoteAF Flight Suit/CAP Flight Suit/CAP Utility Uniform - Replace plastic grade with full color embroidered on grey grade.  Replace leather name tag with white on grey cloth nametag with CAP Emblem, skill badge, name and "Civil Air Patrol" (no grade).  NOTE: cloth nametag requires AF approval.  Authorize the wear of grey baseball cap or patrol cap.
Seriously, get off your grey kick and pick a dark-toned color.
1. Concur with embroidered insignia (with a dark-toned color like black or navy blue).
2. Concur with the cloth nametag (with a dark-toned color like black or navy blue) and with removing the grade from the nametag.  Non-concur with adding a CAP emblem.  That's what the MAJCOM is for.
3. Concur with baseball cap (with a dark-toned color like black or navy blue).

QuoteBDU/CAP Field Uniform - Replace full color embroidered on blue grade with full color embroidered on grey grade.  Replace white on blue name tape, CIVIL AIR PATROL tape and skill badges with white on grey name tape, CIVIL AIR PATROL tape and skill badges.  Make grey baseball cap or patrol cap the "default" headgear - others may be authorized for wear but everyone will have a grey hat.
Concur with everything (if the color is darker) except leave the hat alone.  That'll just force everyone to go out and buy a new hat when there's no reason to change.  What we have currently works just fine.

QuoteFinally, change CAP Customs and Courtesies to require salutes in all uniforms except blazer and golf shirt.  Right now, "To The Colors" would require a salute from those in AF-style and removing of hats and hand over heart from corp types.
Concur.
Lt Col, CAP

ddelaney103

dcpacemaker,

I understand your aversion to the grey, but I don't see the AF changing it anytime soon.  If that's the case, we might as well run with it.

Changing the braid is something we have to do with old AF Mess Dress anyway - I'd be just as happy to get rid of it altogether.  The blue braid on the shoulderboards is just a hassle.  Ironicly, the CAP GO boards look better than the AF GO boards, as the AF boards have too much silver.

I don't think going with dark nametapes for the BBDU is a good idea.  If we match colors with the suit you run into the problem of them fading at different rates.

The goal with the Service Dress changes wasn't primarily saving money.  It was to have the two uniform jackets have similar means of wearing grade.

I do think having one primary hat for the various utility uniforms is important.  It would be a way to have a common thread running across the many suits that are worn on operations.

aveighter

I must disagree.  At my age the thought of adding more grey is pure heresy.  And the Mess Dress is a marvelous looking uniform (if you can wear it properly) .  Making the lapels grey would look absolutely horrendous!  Something only P Diddy could love.


Pace

Quote from: ddelaney103 on January 31, 2007, 09:55:19 PM
dcpacemaker
Feel free to call me Daniel.

QuoteI understand your aversion to the grey, but I don't see the AF changing it anytime soon.  If that's the case, we might as well run with it.
I don't buy into the concept of making everything grey just because the Air Force made our rank slides grey.  The BDU tapes/insignia and flight suit insignia don't have to match the service uniform rank slides (they don't now).

QuoteThe blue braid on the shoulderboards is just a hassle.
How?  You buy the shoulderboards and it's on there.  Where's the hassle?  Or do you take Air Force boards and custom make yours?

QuoteI don't think going with dark nametapes for the BBDU is a good idea.  If we match colors with the suit you run into the problem of them fading at different rates.
We're not talking about just the BBDUs.  I'm talking about using navy blue or black for everything that is currently on an ultramarine blue background.  And our current tapes fade at a different rate anyway.  If avoiding matching colors is your concern then go with black.

QuoteThe goal with the Service Dress changes wasn't primarily saving money.  It was to have the two uniform jackets have similar means of wearing grade.
Never gonna happen since TP's entire purpose was to get rid of the rank slides in favor of pin-on rank.  Remove the sleeve braids since they look extremely out of place.  I would, however, be in favor of using either of the Chrome nametags for both uniforms (probably the one with "Civil Air Patrol" to maintain distinctiveness).

QuoteI do think having one primary hat for the various utility uniforms is important.  It would be a way to have a common thread running across the many suits that are worn on operations.
I see your point, but on operations the first thing I would do is ditch the ballcap and put on the slightly more protective and durable BDU/BBDU cap.  As long as the option was in place to throw on the BDU/BBDU hat for operations then I don't really care what the primary cover is for weekly meetings and non-operations related activities.
Lt Col, CAP

NIN

"embrace the grey!"

I see where Dan is going with this, and I gotta say, I don't much disagree with it!

Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
I have no responsibilities whatsoever
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2024 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Pace

#15
[redacted]
Lt Col, CAP

AlphaSigOU

Quote from: ddelaney103 on January 31, 2007, 05:46:32 PMFinally, change CAP Customs and Courtesies to require salutes in all uniforms except blazer and golf shirt.  Right now, "To The Colors" would require a salute from those in AF-style and removing of hats and hand over heart from corp types.

Military C&C is also extended to those who wear the TPU, but not the grays.
Lt Col Charles E. (Chuck) Corway, CAP
Gill Robb Wilson Award (#2901 - 2011)
Amelia Earhart Award (#1257 - 1982) - C/Major (retired)
Billy Mitchell Award (#2375 - 1981)
Administrative/Personnel/Professional Development Officer
Nellis Composite Squadron (PCR-NV-069)
KJ6GHO - NAR 45040

SAR-EMT1

I merely wanted to ask why several folks are proposing removal of the sleeve braid on the Service and Mess Dress. Currently All Officers Uniforms of All Services Have Braid on their sleeves. Its one of the distinctions to the Officer's Uniforms.  So for CAP to remove the braid from its "Officers" uniforms would look very out of place where looked at from a broader perspective.
So I say keep it as is. Changing it to silver would in my humble opinion look too gaudy and Grey... well lets get away from grey. - No offense-
C. A. Edgar
AUX USCG Flotilla 8-8
Former CC / GLR-IL-328
Firefighter, Paramedic, Grad Student

Pace

That was my suggestion.  I honestly didn't realize that all branches did that for their officers.  Yet with that said, why exactly is that needed for us?  Not having it would be more (even if only slightly) distinctive, and when exactly did we get an enlisted corps?  Don't use cadets as our example because an officer corp and a cadet training environment is not the same as having an officer/enlisted force.  We (CAP officers) do all the planning AND footwork.  No officer distinction necessary.
Lt Col, CAP

SAR-EMT1

Quote from: dcpacemaker on February 01, 2007, 03:48:40 AM
That was my suggestion.  I honestly didn't realize that all branches did that for their officers.  Yet with that said, why exactly is that needed for us?  No officer distinction necessary.

Well.. to clarify something: the Navy and USCG use the braid itself as a rank identifier. Look at an Admiral and it goes clear to the elbow  ;D

That said, CAP USED TO HAVE A OFFICER/ENLISTED SIDE and so I guess it is tradition. (I'm only 21 so I cant speak from actual experience) Aside from that, if we grow closer to the AF it could be argued that as AF-Aux Officers would be required to adhere as do AF Officers. - though I cant remember if the AD AF has blue or silver (Can someone tell me? )

C. A. Edgar
AUX USCG Flotilla 8-8
Former CC / GLR-IL-328
Firefighter, Paramedic, Grad Student

Pace

I checked before I replied before.  Theirs is blue, just like ours.  I still don't see the point in the distinction for officers without an enlisted corps, and the more I read and observe, the more convinced I am that we'll never get any closer to the Air Force than we are now.  National leadership is working too hard to make us as independent as we can be and competitive under our corporate umbrella.  Change in aircraft paint scheme and new MAJCOM patch just reflect this changing mentality from the high brass.

That aside, I'm only insisting on removal if the only alternative is changing to a different color, especially grey.  And for the love of...  TAKE  THE SAFETY BELT OFF THE TPU JACKET SLEEVES!!!  It's fugly as sin!
Lt Col, CAP

mikeylikey

Personaly I allways thought the sleeve braid should be black.  The Air Force should have also kept the black stripe down the pant legs as well.  It was an attempt to make the AF uniform look m ore business in the 50's.  They lost the uniform heritage and now it seems they are trying to get some of it back with those prototype service coats.  I would like to see a return to the props (Army Air Force branch insignia) underneath the " US" on the jackets.

Other than what was mentioned above, leave the service jacket and the braid alone.  It is a part of our heritage.   
What's up monkeys?

JohnKachenmeister

The trouser stripe seems rather silly on an Air Force uniform.  The Army wears them out of a sense of tradition.  They originally were so that dismounted troops could spot the officers and NCO's when they were on horseback.

The little wing and prop were the Air Corps "Branch brass."  What would be the point of branch brass when everyone is in the same branch?  The Army still uses branch brass.  Mine was crossed Harper's Ferry .50 caliber pistols, the first handgun made for the US Army with interchangeable parts, symbolizing the teamwork of the Military Police.  The right-hand pistol overlays the left-hand pistol to symbolize the triumph of justice over evil.

The Army still uses the wing-and prop for the Aviation branch, but the design of the wings matches the Army aircrew wings.
Another former CAP officer

LtCol White

As far as never getting closer to USAF than we are now, Dan, I disagree. The current leadership is making the move to be more independent. All it takes is change of command to go back the other way.

We DO have an enlisted corps. Although I've never seen one, we have the CAP NCO corps that wears enlisted USAF chevrons. Having the blue braid on the sleeves for officers should stay. Its in keeping with USAF tradition.

The more people try and change the uniforms to be more distinct and Non-USAF, the FARTHER we get from USAF. LEAVE IT ALONE and work towards going back to the old standards prior to grey/maroon eps. Going back has nothing to do with being a pretender to USAF.  Its about the heritage and regaining a more professional look to our uniforms. The less ridiculous they look the more the image improves IF the uniform is worn properly. POLICING the membership is the key. Not changing the uniforms to be less USAF.

For those of you who complain about the costs involved with uniforms and changes, WHY would you propose changing the mess dress from something that be be purchased off the shelf from AAFES  to something that has to be made specially for us with grey lapels and pants stripes?? Besides, THAT would look like total crap.

Before you start talking about making changes to uniforms, you need to make sure you understand the traditions behind them and what the components are. Then think before you speak. Its things like this that make USAF think "these guys don't have a clue"
LtCol David P. White CAP   
HQ LAWG

Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska

Diplomacy - The ability to tell someone to "Go to hell" and have them look forward to making the trip.

ddelaney103

Suggested New Rules of Engagement:

Comments about my postings should be addressed to "ddelaney103" and comments for Daniel Pace should probably be addressed to "dcpacemaker."

There are a few on this list who actually know my "drinking buddy level" name (Dan), such as NIN and Dragoon.  While I don't have any problems with them using it, I don't use first names unless I've gotten some sort of permission and expect the same in return.

More importantly, I suspect we have already gotten confusion between my postings and dcpacemaker's (Daniel's) postings.  I don't want him to have to take on the ad hom attacks directed at me and vice versa.

LtCol White

If u made a comment and then read a post and see it addressed, you will know the comment was directed to you rather than someone else. Common sense.
LtCol David P. White CAP   
HQ LAWG

Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska

Diplomacy - The ability to tell someone to "Go to hell" and have them look forward to making the trip.

Pace

Quote from: LtCol White on February 01, 2007, 03:04:03 PM
As far as never getting closer to USAF than we are now, Dan, I disagree. The current leadership is making the move to be more independent. All it takes is change of command to go back the other way.
Yeah, and as soon as we get back closer to the Air Force all the work to separate us from the PCA will have been undone, and all of the missions that had become (or will become) available to us on the HLS front just ended.  No intelligent commander is going to remove missions from CAP's list of capabilities unless the current set of circumstances changes (the Attorney General exempts us from the PCA under certain limitations, other new missions/capabilities arise that will more than fill the HLS mission gap, etc.).

QuoteWe DO have an enlisted corps. Although I've never seen one, we have the CAP NCO corps that wears enlisted USAF chevrons. Having the blue braid on the sleeves for officers should stay. Its in keeping with USAF tradition.
No, we don't.  We have a marginally small percentage of senior members who are current or former military NCOs who choose to keep that grade.  That's not an NCO "corps" since the vast majority of the members who are doing the vast majority of the work are officers.

QuotePOLICING the membership is the key. Not changing the uniforms to be less USAF.
Let he who is without uniform infractions/alterations cast the first stone.

Back on topic...
Lt Col, CAP

ddelaney103

Quote from: LtCol White on February 01, 2007, 04:19:12 PM
If u made a comment and then read a post and see it addressed, you will know the comment was directed to you rather than someone else. Common sense.

Common sense is nice, though it should never be assumed.

Common courtesy, however, is not only the oil that eases the machinery of debate, but part and parcel of the culture of the profession of arms.

aveighter

Pretty strident eruption there Daniel.  I re-read Lt Col Whites post and didn't find anything there to indicate a move closer to the USAF was analogous to gutting PCA  understandings or legislation.

Also, Daniel, I was a little unclear regarding your assertion that proper uniform appearance discipline should only be (casting stones) encouraged by, and here is where it gets a little murky,

A: Those without current infractions/alterations
B: Those who have never had an infraction/alteration
C: Those observed to have walked on water and quelled the mighty tempest
D: There is no one so all bets are off, if it feels good do it (very 60s)

Thanks.

Oh and Dan, I think that by ad hom you are referring to ad hominem?  I think that means attacks on you personally rather than the merits (or lack thereof) of your position.  I didn't notice any posts in the thread that seemed to indicate such but I'll try to pay closer attention.

Care for a drink?

ddelaney103

Quote from: LtCol White on February 01, 2007, 03:04:03 PM
As far as never getting closer to USAF than we are now, Dan, I disagree. The current leadership is making the move to be more independent. All it takes is change of command to go back the other way.

We DO have an enlisted corps. Although I've never seen one, we have the CAP NCO corps that wears enlisted USAF chevrons. Having the blue braid on the sleeves for officers should stay. Its in keeping with USAF tradition.

Current AF officer jackets have shoulder straps, not to mention the bright metal things on them.  I don't think anyone is going to confuse the two.  Blue braid on a blue sleeve is not worth the added expense for us, esp. if you buy off the rack at MCSS, where you get two pieces of braid to put on the jacket when you buy it.

QuoteThe more people try and change the uniforms to be more distinct and Non-USAF, the FARTHER we get from USAF. LEAVE IT ALONE and work towards going back to the old standards prior to grey/maroon eps. Going back has nothing to do with being a pretender to USAF.  Its about the heritage and regaining a more professional look to our uniforms. The less ridiculous they look the more the image improves IF the uniform is worn properly. POLICING the membership is the key. Not changing the uniforms to be less USAF.

What do you mean by "policing?"  Getting folks into height/weight and out of the TPU/blazer?  I don't see that happening anytime soon ever.  There is a need for the TPU to enable the "big cheeses" to interact with other orgs while wearing a military uniform.  However, it would help if our suit looked more like the AF suit, both from a appearance standpoint and from an interchangeability of parts standpoint.

The grey epaulets are what the AF gave us and I don't see them going away anytime soon.  The TPU, however, can be changed a lot easier, as seen by the changes to collar brass and grade on the headgear.  Adopting the grey shoulderstraps on the TPU provides more uniformity with AF Service Dress.  Moreover, it could be seen by the AF as an attempt to "come back on the reservation" as far as the aggravation  over our TPU end-run is concerned.

QuoteFor those of you who complain about the costs involved with uniforms and changes, WHY would you propose changing the mess dress from something that be be purchased off the shelf from AAFES  to something that has to be made specially for us with grey lapels and pants stripes?? Besides, THAT would look like total crap.

Reread my post.  I was talking about changes to the AF Mess Dress, not just the CAP Mess Dress.  When I first put on AF Mess Dress there were only a couple of stripes and a couple of medals standing between being an Airman and being a waiter.  Now, I have a lot more stripes, a bunch more medals and a couple of pieces of "skill bling."  However, when I go to joint events and stand next to Soldiers, Sailors and Marines, I still look like I'm in the 1st Amish Regiment. 

QuoteBefore you start talking about making changes to uniforms, you need to make sure you understand the traditions behind them and what the components are. Then think before you speak. Its things like this that make USAF think "these guys don't have a clue"

Traditions are sometimes made to be broken.  Since I've been in CAP we lost our best uniform (the dark blue "khaki's") and had to deal with some odd ideas (guayabera shirts, anyone?).  In the AF it was the same thing - I wore my four pocket Service until the very last day and cursed "da man" for making me give up the SNCO epaulets on my blue service shirt.  Neither time did I decide to go free agent and join the RAAF.  You do the job and work with what you have, not what you wished to have.

Argumentum ad hominem noted - no further action.

ddelaney103

Quote from: aveighter on February 01, 2007, 05:37:29 PM
Oh and Dan, I think that by ad hom you are referring to ad hominem?  I think that means attacks on you personally rather than the merits (or lack thereof) of your position.  I didn't notice any posts in the thread that seemed to indicate such but I'll try to pay closer attention.

Some highlights:

QuoteBefore you start talking about making changes to uniforms, you need to make sure you understand the traditions behind them and what the components are. Then think before you speak. Its things like this that make USAF think "these guys don't have a clue"

and

QuoteIf u made a comment and then read a post and see it addressed, you will know the comment was directed to you rather than someone else. Common sense.

Now, these seem to be comments directed against the commentator, not the commentary.  The use of "you" (or its leet speak cousin, "u"), instead of "your idea" or "that idea," indicates the criticism is directed against the person.  To quote Daffy Duck:

QuoteAha! Pronoun trouble!

I'd go on, but my throat is kinda parched...

LtCol White

YOU is used in a a general sense. Not denoting a specific person. If a PERSON makes a comment and then sees a reply adressing that comment, then the PERSON will know it was directed to THEIR comment.

CLEARER?
LtCol David P. White CAP   
HQ LAWG

Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska

Diplomacy - The ability to tell someone to "Go to hell" and have them look forward to making the trip.

aveighter

Jeez Dan, thats what constitutes a personal attack in your world? 

Sorry, I just don't see it.  Have another drink.

carnold1836

Is it possible for every one to back off for a bit and get their trousers out of a knot, grey or otherwise.

This is supposed to be a discussion on the merits of a change in the color scheme of the corporate uniform, not a pissing match about who is attacking whom.

SHEESH LIGHTEN UP FRANCIS.

BTW if there is anybody here named Francis, that isn't a personal attack. :P
Chris Arnold, 1st Lt, CAP
Pegasus Composite Squadron

Pace

#34
Quote from: aveighter on February 01, 2007, 05:37:29 PM
Pretty strident eruption there Daniel.  I re-read Lt Col Whites post and didn't find anything there to indicate a move closer to the USAF was analogous to gutting PCA  understandings or legislation.
Except that if you look at the reasons for being more independent of the Air Force (at least the ones that benefit the organization and not a single person), you'll find PCA right in the middle of it.  It is at the very heart of the issue of closer to/more independent of the Air Force, whether stated or not.

QuoteAlso, Daniel, I was a little unclear regarding your assertion that proper uniform appearance discipline should only be (casting stones) encouraged by, and here is where it gets a little murky,
My post was version 2.0.  The first was censored by a man more tempered and wiser than I.  My comment was only supposed to make sense to one person.  Considering a lack of a response, I think the message was heard and understood.  Moving on...

QuoteCare for a drink?
Are you buying?
Lt Col, CAP


ColonelJack

Running the risk of having someone tell me I didn't read a post correctly, I must add ...

I find it odd that people say the Corporate Service Coat should look "more like the AF service coat."  How much more like it can it look?  The only -- only -- differences are shade of blue (and if you can really tell the difference you're better than I am) ... silver sleeve braid ... and the double-breasted front.  Other than that, it is the AF service coat!

If, however, the point is that the Corp coat should have gray epaulets instead of pin-on rank, then I would say it shouldn't -- it's designed to be a different uniform, looking similar to the AF but with just enough in the way of differences to not be confused for same.

Or am I off on my own tangent here?

Jack
Jack Bagley, Ed. D.
Lt. Col., CAP (now inactive)
Gill Robb Wilson Award No. 1366, 29 Nov 1991
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
Honorary Admiral, Navy of the Republic of Molossia

lordmonar

I'll chime here...

I agree in principle with what Dan is suggesting.

The TPU, white and grays and USAF style uniforms need to be as close to each other as possible.

Here is why.

Imagine your standard mission base at a multi-agency operation.

There is the fire department, the sheriffs department, the National Guard, Forrest Service and CAP.

In my experience all those agencies try to make their uniforms....well uniform.

But CAP.....You got BDUs, BBDUs, OD Flight Suits, Blue Flight Suits, USAF blues with gray rank and name tag, gray and whites with gray rank and name tag, blue and whites with blue name tag and blue rank and the ever favorite polo shirts and gray pants and maybe even a couple of blazer combos.

How many organizations are we?

TPU's or gray and whites?  I don't really care one way or the other....but stand the two of them next to each other and try to explain that "yes they are from the same organization".  And people wonder why we don't have any professional respect.

For my money....if I were god....I would do the same as the CGAUX and be done with it....but since the USAF won't budge on the weight and height standards we can't do that.

I would suggest that we just dump the USAF uniforms for SM's all together.  Go with the TPU (as being closest to the USAF uniform) BBDU and Blue Flight suit.

Ditch the ultramarine and go with a darker blue for the rank and name tapes.

So now at your mission base you will see only three uniform (maybe 4 if you keep the polo shirt) one for ground teams, one for air crew and one for the PAO/IC/AL and other desk worker/public interface types.

As far as understanding the traditions behind the USAF and their uniforms.....as an AD USAF MSGT I say screw them!  They are not important and no one in the USAF knows them or very much cares about them (not really).  In my 20 years we have gone through 3 different types of field uniforms (5 if you count jungle BDU and the cotton fatigues). We have changed the service coat twice (not counting epaulets on then off again and the navy style rank).

It was not all that long ago when they still wore the pink and tans and about 700 different combinations of the fatigues. (a note for the history buffs) The USAF wore ultra-marine name and full color ranks and squadron patches up until the early 80's...so those who think it looks like a donkey now only have the USAF to blame!)
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Major_Chuck

I like grey.  Looks distinguished.  Oh wait, we are talking about uniforms...:)

Actually I really do like the color grey and think a grey beret with a blue flash (similiar to army) and the CAP crest from the flight cap on it would look very professional as an "Optional" non field uniform item.

Chuck Cranford
SGT, TNCO VA OCS
Virginia Army National Guard

JohnKachenmeister

Another former CAP officer

ZigZag911

Quote from: lordmonar on February 02, 2007, 12:10:16 AM

I would suggest that we just dump the USAF uniforms for SM's all together.  Go with the TPU (as being closest to the USAF uniform) BBDU and Blue Flight suit.


I'm not all that fond of the TPU, but I have to agree with Lord M (again!) that it would really be a worthwhile thing to achieve UNIFORMITY in our uniforms!

lordmonar

Quote from: ZigZag911 on February 02, 2007, 04:38:41 AM
...but I have to agree with Lord M (again!).....

I just saw four guys on horses ride by my house...just now.  Let's not start anything we can't handle later! :o
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

LtCol White

#42
dcpacemaker, your message was read and ignored considering the source.
LtCol David P. White CAP   
HQ LAWG

Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska

Diplomacy - The ability to tell someone to "Go to hell" and have them look forward to making the trip.

DogCollar

I would submit that perhaps turning down the heat a bit might be more productive?  These point-counter point postings, that are personal in nature, could be handled via personal messaging.  This board is a public area, and being such, it is incumbent upon us all, as officers of CAP, to comport ourselves accordingly.

It's okay for everyone to have strong feelings and opinions about CAP.  It is important to recognize that this is not a perfect means of communication (being on-line, email, etc..) where it is easy to take offense at something written, that said face to face would be no big deal.
Ch. Maj. Bill Boldin, CAP

Dragoon

One purpose of a uniform is to make folks on a team look the same

uni = one
form = appearance


If we have alternate uniforms, it makes sense to make them all, well, UNIFORM.  To the extent possible.

If you have have to wear CAP cutouts on one suit, why not on both?
If you have to wear a hat with one suit, why not with both?
If you have to wear grey epaulets with one suit, why not with both.
Why the heck does CAP have so many different nametags, fer cryin' out loud?

As a commander, I'm much more interested in my unit presenting a uniform appearance than I am with some guys looking spiffier than others because they can.

I agree with lordmonar that since USAF is unlikely to put "fat 'n fuzzies" into USAF suits, and since CAP really needs the talents for these folks, the only way to get all CAPers into a single uniform is to put us all into corporate uniforms.

Failing that, it's best to make the two suits look as alike as possible.

A.Member

I just say:

Boooooo!

All of these uniform change discussions have gotten rather old.  The amount of time some of you spend discussing it amazes me. 
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

DogCollar

Dragoon,

I concur with you about the need for more "uniformity" of the uniforms.  I think I would do it a little differently however.

Instead of one universal uniform...I would offer two.  One, the USAF style uniform for everyone that meets the weight and grooming requirement.  Second, the much maligned grey slacks and golf shirt for everyone who doesn't.  I would drop all other CAP distinctive uniforms.

There would be no discriminating against those who can't or won't meet weight and grooming standards from rising in rank and responsibility.  It might also be incentive for some to adopt a healthier lifestyle in order to wear the uniform.

Given my previous posting, I hope I haven't offended anyone by this suggestion.  Offense was not my intent.
Ch. Maj. Bill Boldin, CAP

Major_Chuck

About the only thing I don't like about the TPU is the Service Jacket.  I do not like the double breasted button look.  Every photo I've seen of people wearing it makes them look rather...wide....

This weekend however I did wear the Class B version of the TPU with a black jacket (actually my Army All Weather Coat) and it looked fine.  (I know, not authorized but it was blasted cold.)
Chuck Cranford
SGT, TNCO VA OCS
Virginia Army National Guard

Dragoon

Quote from: DogCollar on February 02, 2007, 05:02:58 PM
Dragoon,

I concur with you about the need for more "uniformity" of the uniforms.  I think I would do it a little differently however.

Instead of one universal uniform...I would offer two.  One, the USAF style uniform for everyone that meets the weight and grooming requirement.  Second, the much maligned grey slacks and golf shirt for everyone who doesn't.  I would drop all other CAP distinctive uniforms.

There would be no discriminating against those who can't or won't meet weight and grooming standards from rising in rank and responsibility.  It might also be incentive for some to adopt a healthier lifestyle in order to wear the uniform.

Given my previous posting, I hope I haven't offended anyone by this suggestion.  Offense was not my intent.

That would really break the concept of uniformity - half the organization in a coat and tie, festooned with rank and ribbons, and the other half in an open-necked knit shirt with no rank insignia, no ribbons, and different colored slacks.

If we are one team, I'm gonna continue to vote towards looking like one team.

Dragoon

Quote from: CAP Safety Dude on February 02, 2007, 05:44:45 PM
About the only thing I don't like about the TPU is the Service Jacket.  I do not like the double breasted button look.  Every photo I've seen of people wearing it makes them look rather...wide....

Well, technically, those likely to wear the uniform are wide to begin with ;D

Although yeah, I thought double breasted was a bad fashion choice for heavy folks.

davedove

Quote from: Dragoon on February 02, 2007, 06:32:37 PM
Quote from: DogCollar on February 02, 2007, 05:02:58 PM
Dragoon,

I concur with you about the need for more "uniformity" of the uniforms.  I think I would do it a little differently however.

Instead of one universal uniform...I would offer two.  One, the USAF style uniform for everyone that meets the weight and grooming requirement.  Second, the much maligned grey slacks and golf shirt for everyone who doesn't.  I would drop all other CAP distinctive uniforms.

There would be no discriminating against those who can't or won't meet weight and grooming standards from rising in rank and responsibility.  It might also be incentive for some to adopt a healthier lifestyle in order to wear the uniform.

Given my previous posting, I hope I haven't offended anyone by this suggestion.  Offense was not my intent.

That would really break the concept of uniformity - half the organization in a coat and tie, festooned with rank and ribbons, and the other half in an open-necked knit shirt with no rank insignia, no ribbons, and different colored slacks.

If we are one team, I'm gonna continue to vote towards looking like one team.

Even worse, what if only one or two couldn't wear the AF uniforms.  They would really stand out.

I agree that, unless the AF allows those who don't meet weight and grooming standards to wear their uniform, the only way to achieve true uniformity is to go corporate.

Now, I'm not advocating we get rid of the AF uniform, especially the service dress.  I like the uniform.  Perhaps that could be kept as an optional uniform for use when complete uniformity is not required.

Even the TPU is not currently a universal uniform.  Those who chose to wear facial hair, no matter how neatly trimmed, no matter how fit they are, cannot wear the uniform.  I personally think that restriction should be removed.
David W. Dove, Maj, CAP
Deputy Commander for Seniors
Personnel/PD/Asst. Testing Officer
Ground Team Leader
Frederick Composite Squadron
MER-MD-003

Dragoon

Quote from: davedove on February 02, 2007, 06:52:24 PM
Even the TPU is not currently a universal uniform.  Those who chose to wear facial hair, no matter how neatly trimmed, no matter how fit they are, cannot wear the uniform.  I personally think that restriction should be removed.

I'd agree, but I'd also agree that it's not unreasonable to demand that our male officers shave (unless they have a medical waiver) and cut their hair.

Being fat is a lot harder to solve than dropping 20 bucks at Hair Cuttery.  While I'm sure we'd lose a few members who love their beards, the result would make us a lot more uniform, and looking a bit more like standard image of an american serviceman.

But either way, one suit (or two suits that look a lot alike) seems the way to go.

ZigZag911

Quote from: lordmonar on February 02, 2007, 05:40:32 AM
Quote from: ZigZag911 on February 02, 2007, 04:38:41 AM
...but I have to agree with Lord M (again!).....

I just saw four guys on horses ride by my house...just now.  Let's not start anything we can't handle later! :o

Yeah, I'm getting a bit concerned myself, Armageddon and all that!

BillB

Don't wory about the Four Horsemen.  Worry about that black van from Maxwell.
Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104

ZigZag911

Quote from: BillB on February 02, 2007, 11:28:00 PM
Don't wory about the Four Horsemen.  Worry about that black van from Maxwell.

Actually, now that the 'roadside assistance' period is past on the warranty, it's kind of comforting knowing they're with me wherever I go!!

AlphaSigOU

Quote from: Dragoon on February 02, 2007, 07:55:41 PM
Quote from: davedove on February 02, 2007, 06:52:24 PM
Even the TPU is not currently a universal uniform.  Those who chose to wear facial hair, no matter how neatly trimmed, no matter how fit they are, cannot wear the uniform.  I personally think that restriction should be removed.

I'd agree, but I'd also agree that it's not unreasonable to demand that our male officers shave (unless they have a medical waiver) and cut their hair.

Being fat is a lot harder to solve than dropping 20 bucks at Hair Cuttery.  While I'm sure we'd lose a few members who love their beards, the result would make us a lot more uniform, and looking a bit more like standard image of an american serviceman.

But either way, one suit (or two suits that look a lot alike) seems the way to go.

I'll hafta agree... I don't mind if they allow well-trimmed facial hair for those that wear the TPU. Then we'd really start looking like the U.S. Navy of old!  ;D
Lt Col Charles E. (Chuck) Corway, CAP
Gill Robb Wilson Award (#2901 - 2011)
Amelia Earhart Award (#1257 - 1982) - C/Major (retired)
Billy Mitchell Award (#2375 - 1981)
Administrative/Personnel/Professional Development Officer
Nellis Composite Squadron (PCR-NV-069)
KJ6GHO - NAR 45040

Major Carrales

Quote from: BillB on February 02, 2007, 11:28:00 PM
Don't wory about the Four Horsemen.  Worry about that black van from Maxwell.

Ah ha!!!  The rather dashing 19th Century Victor Hugo hero... Baron Black van Maxwell!!!  Isn't the such an character?  Well, there should have been.
"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454

DrJbdm

I thought I actually read somewhere that NHQ was actually looking at developing a new flight cap with grey braid instead of the current silver/blue that AF has now?? Or was it a grey flight cap they where looking at?? I can't really remember where I read that or what it was they wanted to do with the flight cap. I can't be getting that old already can I??  ;D    I wish they would leave it alone, let's stop trying to be more distinctive.

I wish they would do something with our mess dress uniforms however. the blue braid on the sleeves and on the shoulder boards blends in so well with the material that you can't see it. I wish we could make it look a little closer to the Air Force Silver so it stands out a bit more. our mess dress uniforms just don't look as good as the air force version. I don't see why we can't have the same silver braid they have, we already put a big round CAP seal on the jacket. just place CAP on the shoulder board as well if you need more distinctiveness. how distinctive do we have to be anyway? 

  Back in the 80's when we had the blue grade slides we looked so much better, much more aligned with the AF. I remember a funny story, I was at the BX at Bergstrom AFB with a Captain (I was a cadet officer back then) when a Marine NCO walked up, looked at the Captains blue CAP slides and asked "Sir, Are Air Force airmen getting so stupid that they have to spell Captain next to your rank?"  that was a true story.  Now you know why when you go to the Navy recruiter they give you an IQ test, if your IQ score is below your shoe size you go to the marines, if it's above your shoe size you can go into the Navy. LOL.

Sorry Marines, just messin with you.

ZigZag911

Quote from: DrJbdm on February 04, 2007, 05:38:25 PM
  Back in the 80's when we had the blue grade slides we looked so much better, much more aligned with the AF. I remember a funny story, I was at the BX at Bergstrom AFB with a Captain (I was a cadet officer back then) when a Marine NCO walked up, looked at the Captains blue CAP slides and asked "Sir, Are Air Force airmen getting so stupid that they have to spell Captain next to your rank?" 

Prior to the development of the miniature device for the flight cap, there was an Urban Legend that Seniors without grade had to wear a cutout on the flight cap....and we actually did see a REALLY new SM do so once...picture it, a flight cap with CAP emblazoned on it in silver letters!

We're still chuckling over whether this person's entire wardrobe was similarly marked!

JohnKachenmeister

When I got promoted in CAP to major, my wife asked why it still said "CAP" on my gray epaulet.  "Shouldn't it be MAJ?"

My wife was never a Marine, but she is a blonde.

Another former CAP officer

BillB

That wasn't an urban legend. There was a time span when the silver CAP cutout was worn on the flight cap. Prior to that is it was metal or cloth  CAP insignia (the triangle with red prop)
Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104