Here's the scoop:
While randomly looking through military uniform regulations, I came across this one:
Quote from: Army Regulation 670-1
Soldiers will not starch the Army Combat Uniform or Battle Dress Uniform under any circumstances. The use of starch, sizing, and any process that involves dry-cleaning or a steam press will adversely affect the treatments and durability of the uniform and is not authorized.
Wash in cold water and mild detergent containing no optical brighteners or bleach. Tumble dry at low heat (not to exceed 130 degrees Farenheit). Remove immediately from the dryer and fold flat or place on a rustproof hanger to ensure heat from the dryer does not set wrinkles. To drip dry, remove from the washer/water and place on a rustproof hanger. Do not wring or twist.
As I looked up the reason for this, it's due to starch enclosing the little holes in the uniform, therefore trapping body heat inside the uniform. This causes the enemy to be able to see our men through night vision thermal and UV sensors.
Now I know this is the Army, and I know this doesn't apply to us. However, I'm pretty sure that the Air Force regs mention this somewhere, and since we are the Air Force Auxiliary, we follow some, if not all, of the regs of the Air Force. I'm also aware that we aren't involved in enemy combat situations, but that shouldn't really matter.
Aside from all this, starch does make the uniform nice and smooth... but it also makes it shiny.
So, what I'm asking you is: should we starch our BDUs? I'm neither attacking or defending starching. I'm stuck in the middle from here. What do you think?
Message icon - MIKE
Starch is lame.
Quote from: MIKE on July 12, 2008, 06:59:54 PM
Starch is lame.
Yeah.. especially since it gives the BDU a nasty shine.
Starch tears apart the fiber strands of the material. It basically eats at it like acid. Slow acting acid. It also eats away at the dye.
I would go through one pair of BDU's a year.....figuring one wash, starch and press per week. I always liked the faded look of my BDU's over the fresh look though. I also always got the heaviest starch, that way I did not have to iron them all week.
Now with ACU's, I just throw them in cold water turn the machine on quick wash and hang them up on the clothes line to dry. The wrinkles kind of fall out, like the new ABU's.
Believe me, starch isn't going to make you any more visible to a Thermal Camera. Your screwed either way.
I always starched my cammies with light starch. And spit shinned my green jungle boots and starched my herringbone Marine Corps cover. Ahhhhh, those were the days. I lightly starch my CAP cammies also. That was for barracks life. I had separate utilities for when I went to the field. Usually older ones.
I usually take my BDUs to the cleaners when they're brand new and have them launder and heavy starch them right off the bat. After that, the creases are pretty much set and it's easy to starch them yourself at home. My field uniforms are old uniforms that were starched at one time, but not anymore so they still hold a nice appearance and creases.
I'm not sure what people are doing to their uniforms, but I wear black BDUs 15 12-hour shifts a month in my civilian LE job and all I ever have to worry about is fading. I've never had a set disintegrate from over-starching.
I know there are people who just like to wash and wear BDUs, but don't show up somewhere looking like you slept in them.
Quote from: 356cadet on July 12, 2008, 06:48:25 PM
However, I'm pretty sure that the Air Force regs mention this somewhere, and since we are the Air Force Auxiliary, we follow some, if not all, of the regs of the Air Force.
No, we don't. We follow Civil Air Patrol regulations. Those regulations sometimes REFLECT USAF regs, but no USAF manual to my knowledge holds any authority over any CAP member unless a CAP regulation dictates it to have some authority.
Just wanted to make sure that was clear...
Quote from: Nathan on July 12, 2008, 08:20:22 PM
Quote from: 356cadet on July 12, 2008, 06:48:25 PM
However, I'm pretty sure that the Air Force regs mention this somewhere, and since we are the Air Force Auxiliary, we follow some, if not all, of the regs of the Air Force.
No, we don't. We follow Civil Air Patrol regulations. Those regulations sometimes REFLECT USAF regs, but no USAF manual to my knowledge holds any authority over any CAP member unless a CAP regulation dictates it to have some authority.
Just wanted to make sure that was clear...
That's what I meant to say. My bad.
Personaly, I starch the crap out of my BDUs. I dump a bottle of sta-flo liquid starch in the rinse cycle and let them air-dry until slightly damp. I then iron them with a hot steam iron. They don't get shiny going this route. The only time I've had the shine problem is using a spray-on starch. I don't expect anybody else to starch theirs. Curse my Air Training Command background! Starch, spit shine and taps were the norm.
I can't say I noticed a difference in lifespan between the 100% cotton fatigues, permanent press fatigues, and BDUs. The hydraulic fluid and kneeling on the flightline where the killers.
On a side note, I worked on infrared detection systems in the AF, and starched or not didn't do a lot to change the apparent resolution of the infrared image. I do think that slightly baggier fit of BDUs helped to diffuse the human outline when viewed against foliage, but the ever-present hot spots were there none the less.
I searched AFI 36-2903, Dress and Personal Appearance of Air Force Personnel for references to starch. None were found. The only pertinant reference I could find was:
"1.3.1.3. Uniforms will be neat, clean, pressed, buttoned, and properly maintained."
I was suprised to find this little tidbit:
"6. Individuals may sew down pockets but no local policy will be established to make it mandatory."
Yes, I admit it; my pockets have the buttons removed and are sewn shut. My field-use BDUs are unmodified, however.
I have as a rule been replacing my show pair of BDU's about every 3-4 years because of the fade factor more than tearing.
I have tried it both ways. Only dry cleaning vs only Machine wash and dry cleaning maintains the color better. WIWAC I always had them super starched and then I changed my mind. I have found that in my opinion that over the course of a day or 2 the unstarched BDU's will look less like a pile of laundry. For some reason at least when I wear them the starch seems to cause more wrinkles.
Quote from: Nathan on July 12, 2008, 08:20:22 PM
Quote from: 356cadet on July 12, 2008, 06:48:25 PM
However, I'm pretty sure that the Air Force regs mention this somewhere, and since we are the Air Force Auxiliary, we follow some, if not all, of the regs of the Air Force.
No, we don't. We follow Civil Air Patrol regulations. Those regulations sometimes REFLECT USAF regs, but no USAF manual to my knowledge holds any authority over any CAP member unless a CAP regulation dictates it to have some authority.
Just wanted to make sure that was clear...
Ummm....DoD Directives 5500.11, 1020.1, and AFI 36-2707
^ You won't stay a member of CAP very long after violating any of those instructions/directives. You can also be personally sued by a member you discriminate against.
CAP says we must follow those, along with various other AFI's if you were confused. As a Cadet, these most likely don't apply to you as much as a senior member (especially in a Wing or better staff position).
If you need clarification, contact your wing JA, and ask if on Wing inspections they check for violations of these directives. If your wing violates these directives, expect a quick shutdown. (I won't say what Wing it happened to recently....but I will hint that it starts with "P" and ends with "AWG")
Quote from: IceNine on July 12, 2008, 08:48:31 PM
I have as a rule been replacing my show pair of BDU's about every 3-4 years because of the fade factor more than tearing.
I have tried it both ways. Only dry cleaning vs only Machine wash and dry cleaning maintains the color better. WIWAC I always had them super starched and then I changed my mind. I have found that in my opinion that over the course of a day or 2 the unstarched BDU's will look less like a pile of laundry. For some reason at least when I wear them the starch seems to cause more wrinkles.
I'd have to agree with you on that one.
Quote from: mikeylikey on July 12, 2008, 08:57:29 PM
Ummm....DoD Directives 5500.11, 1020.1, and AFI 36-2707
^ You won't stay a member of CAP very long after violating any of those instructions/directives. You can also be personally sued by a member you discriminate against.
CAP says we must follow those, along with various other AFI's if you were confused. As a Cadet, these most likely don't apply to you as much as a senior member (especially in a Wing or better staff position).
Quote from: I earlierThose regulations sometimes REFLECT USAF regs, but no USAF manual to my knowledge holds any authority over any CAP member unless a CAP regulation dictates it to have some authority.
Quote from: Nathan on July 12, 2008, 09:02:48 PM
Quote from: mikeylikey on July 12, 2008, 08:57:29 PM
Ummm....DoD Directives 5500.11, 1020.1, and AFI 36-2707
^ You won't stay a member of CAP very long after violating any of those instructions/directives. You can also be personally sued by a member you discriminate against.
CAP says we must follow those, along with various other AFI's if you were confused. As a Cadet, these most likely don't apply to you as much as a senior member (especially in a Wing or better staff position).
Quote from: I earlierThose regulations sometimes REFLECT USAF regs, but no USAF manual to my knowledge holds any authority over any CAP member unless a CAP regulation dictates it to have some authority.
I don't want to get into a pissing match but;
CAPR 36-2
4.
c. All Commanders:
(1) Are responsible for implementing and enforcing CAP policies, procedures, and directives prohibiting discrimination, as well as
DOD Directives 5500.11, 1020.1, and AFI 36-2707, throughout their respective commands.
Manuals may not say either way, but has anyone actually bothered to read the "use and care" tag inside the uniforms? If it says "do not use starch" then it should be followed. Not really any different than deciding not to follow any other user manual.
^ There were supplements published by the services years ago allowing for the starching of BDU's.
In fact the AF recently published new instructions negating the policy of no starch on ABU's.
Quote from: mikeylikey on July 12, 2008, 09:13:15 PM
Quote from: Nathan on July 12, 2008, 09:02:48 PM
Quote from: mikeylikey on July 12, 2008, 08:57:29 PM
Ummm....DoD Directives 5500.11, 1020.1, and AFI 36-2707
^ You won't stay a member of CAP very long after violating any of those instructions/directives. You can also be personally sued by a member you discriminate against.
CAP says we must follow those, along with various other AFI's if you were confused. As a Cadet, these most likely don't apply to you as much as a senior member (especially in a Wing or better staff position).
Quote from: I earlierThose regulations sometimes REFLECT USAF regs, but no USAF manual to my knowledge holds any authority over any CAP member unless a CAP regulation dictates it to have some authority.
I don't want to get into a pissing match but;
CAPR 36-2
4.
c. All Commanders:
(1) Are responsible for implementing and enforcing CAP policies, procedures, and directives prohibiting discrimination, as well as DOD Directives 5500.11, 1020.1, and AFI 36-2707, throughout their respective commands.
Which was the point. You didn't get the bold?
The USAF regulations have NO authority over us
UNLESS DICTATED TO HAVE AUTHORITY BY A CAP REGULATION!!!!!!!!!!!How's that? :)
In other words, the fact that the publications are USAF and DOD pubs makes no difference.
Green Eggs and Ham can have regulatory authority in CAP, so long as a CAP regulation dicatates it to have authority. We follow the CAP regulations, and them alone. If CAP regulations tell us to follow a certain publication from outside of CAP, then we follow what CAP tells us to do.
Quote from: mikeylikey on July 12, 2008, 09:17:16 PM
^ There were supplements published by the services years ago allowing for the starching of BDU's.
In fact the AF recently published new instructions negating the policy of no starch on ABU's.
Which is rather foolish, considering that the Air Force will seriously hammer you if you do something that is specifically forbidden by the manufacturers directions, and screw something up.
I've seen the ABU material, I wouldn't starch it if you paid me. You may as well wear something made of thick pure wool.
At a recent Wing Encampment, the directive was that if it was hot out and the sun was out and the cadets were out in the sun, they would have the sleeves rolled down to protect against sunburn. Considering that starch increases the internal heat inside the uniform, I would sincerely advise against it and would be careful of cadets, etal, regarding heat stroke in such situations.
As a cadet back in the day, wearing green fatigues, I used starch because that's what I was told to do.
In the Army I kept 4 sets of BDUs starched in my wall locker to look perfect for an inspection.
I never wore starched BDUs, ever. I would iron them with steam and water (used a spray bottle) only.
As an Air Force NCO, I did the same thing as I did in the Army with BDUs. With ABUs, I wash and wear.
I have better things to do than spend 30 minutes starching my BDUs and I certainly have better things to do with my money than paying someone to clean, press and starch my BDU/ABUS.
When I was on active duty in the Army in the early and mid 90s, there was a huge sign at the base cleaners that said "STARCHING OF BDUs IS UNAUTHORIZED". Unfortunately, as Mikey said, some directives may have come out since then. But as far as I know, no regulation and no command has every told me that I have to starch my BDUs.
The tag in the BDUs that says "DO NOT USE BLEACH OR STARCH" is on there for a purpose, because those chemicals have shown to cause wear and tear of the material, whether any of us notice it or not. I tend to go with the manufacturer's guidance and generally not go wrong.
There is work to do. Thirty minutes a day times 1.5-1.75 million in uniform times 365 days a year is a lot of time spent. Better that there be 30 minute more a day to exercise, or work on training, have family time, or a bit of peace and solitude. I used to polish my brass, spit-shine my boots, starch and iron my BDUs. I liked the solitude and peace. The habit is a little hard to break. I am not forlorn or sad about the change... just not quite used to it, I suppose.
When we get the "predator-movie invisibility uniform," I'll have trouble with that too. One officer appearing to be alone walking in a straight line an squinting -- looking for a soldier whom may or may nt be in front of him -- will be difficult and not that much fun to watch. I'm probably a little old to make that transformation. In the meantime -- I'll still polish and press my uni. They'll take me away one day as a crazy old man. BUT, as I said, I like the solitude and peace. SO "spit and polish uniform prison" will likely be OK for me, at least.
With regards;
ED OBRIEN
Quote from: capchiro on July 12, 2008, 09:44:33 PM
At a recent Wing Encampment, the directive was that if it was hot out and the sun was out and the cadets were out in the sun, they would have the sleeves rolled down to protect against sunburn. Considering that starch increases the internal heat inside the uniform, I would sincerely advise against it and would be careful of cadets, etal, regarding heat stroke in such situations.
argh....no, no, no!!
It is a fairytale misconception that unrolled sleeves makes you hotter in the BDU's. Even with starch, which would actually help keep you cooler, as the air trapped between your skin and the uniform would be cooler due to your perspiration not being able to escape as quickly. Heatstroke is caused by less fluid intake and the bodies inability to naturally cool itself due to less perspiration and dehydration.
The further the temperature rises = more intake of fluids, and adjustment of work/rest behavior.
Anyone know what the AF stance is on rolling ABU sleeves now??
Quote from: mikeylikey on July 12, 2008, 11:24:17 PM
Quote from: capchiro on July 12, 2008, 09:44:33 PM
At a recent Wing Encampment, the directive was that if it was hot out and the sun was out and the cadets were out in the sun, they would have the sleeves rolled down to protect against sunburn. Considering that starch increases the internal heat inside the uniform, I would sincerely advise against it and would be careful of cadets, etal, regarding heat stroke in such situations.
argh....no, no, no!!
It is a fairytale misconception that unrolled sleeves makes you hotter in the BDU's. Even with starch, which would actually help keep you cooler, as the air trapped between your skin and the uniform would be cooler due to your perspiration not being able to escape as quickly. Heatstroke is caused by less fluid intake and the bodies inability to naturally cool itself due to less perspiration and dehydration.
The further the temperature rises = more intake of fluids, and adjustment of work/rest behavior.
Anyone know what the AF stance is on rolling ABU sleeves now??
WHAT!?!? That is the exact opposite of being able to stay cool. Evaporation of perspiration is what keeps you cool, that is the point of perspiring.
He didn't say that they were down to stay cool he said they were down to combat the sun, which in itself is a valid point as sunburns can inhibit the ability to sweat.
However a few decades ago there was this AMAZING invention called sunscreen that amazingly works a lot like sleeves down at protecting against the sun.
Quote from: mikeylikey on July 12, 2008, 11:24:17 PM
Anyone know what the AF stance is on rolling ABU sleeves now??
It is permitted.
Quote from: IceNine on July 12, 2008, 11:29:00 PMHeatstroke is caused by less fluid intake and the bodies inability to naturally cool itself due to less perspiration and dehydration.
The further the temperature rises = more intake of fluids, and adjustment of work/rest behavior.
Um, no.
Dehydration is caused by inadequate fluid intake.
Heatstroke Hyperthermia is caused by a body producing or absorbing more heat than it can dissipate.
As to the starch question - I realized how short my life was when I tried to get the energy to argue for the 18th time about whether BDU's should / are allowed to be starched.
This discussion is nonsense in CAP. We do not wear our uniforms in the same manner or for the same duration as active services, so any wear issues are not applicable (most members wear their uniforms a few hours a month, not 24x7 in a harsh environment. Our most strenuous "deployments" rarely last more than a few days, and are not near as harsh as a combat environment). Your average encampment, NESA, HMRS, etc., does not equal BMT, SERE training, or the sandbox, despite what you have heard, and even if they did, they only last a week or two and then the clothes get to "cool off".
For me, my BDU's always go to the cleaners, are always starched stiff, and I believe they have held up better, repel water better, and whether they exhibit an increased fluorescence in UV or IR is barely anecdotally interesting, let alone a matter of concern.
80% of the wear of my uniforms is in a meeting environment and they are worn for presentation effect not utility, and I'm pretty active in ES. I'd wager most members are 90+%, and some never see anything but the VFW and the car.
Quote from: IceNine on July 12, 2008, 11:29:00 PM
WHAT!?!? That is the exact opposite of being able to stay cool. Evaporation of perspiration is what keeps you cool, that is the point of perspiring.
True dat...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweating
As far as I can guess from the bit of thermochemistry I know, heat is taken from your body and absorbed by the sweat in order to cause evaporation. When the vapor can escape, it takes the heat (as stored energy in the molecules now) away from you, and when that heat isn't on you, you obviously become cooler. For chemistry nerds, I would guess that while your body is giving off heat (-change in enthalpy, exothermic), the sweat absorbs heat (+change in enthalpy, endothermic). Therefore, the overall energy stored as heat dissapates from the body.
When you trap your sweat on your skin, however, the vapor has nowhere to go. So instead of carrying the heat away from your body, the sweat may turn vaporous briefly before storing itself on your skin again, and due to the law of conservation of energy, the heat doesn't really go anywhere at all. Instead, the heat just continuously builds up. That's why we don't wear jackets in the summertime, and you tend to get AS MUCH CLOTHING AS POSSIBLE off of someone who's suffering from heat-related injuries.
The only safety-related arguments which have much merit for keeping sleeves down is to protect against sunburn, but we do have sunscreen, and to be honest, it'd have to be a pretty nasty case of sunburn for me to wish I had risked heatstroke. The other main argument is to keep the bugs and branches off in the woods, but again, unless there are some particularly bad bugs or thorny branches, I'd rather lower my risk of heat related injuries.
Then again, I've been through a pretty bad heat injury myself, so maybe I'm just sensitive to the issue. ;)
If you're spending the same amount of time, or more, preparing to wear your BDUs as you do your blues (any variation), then perhaps you're going some place where wearing your blues is more appropriate. Regardless of what you think the purpose is for having BDUs (a utility uniform) in CAP, they are not a parade uniform, nor are they an administrative office uniform.
No one, even in the military, really even cares about the IR/UV or whatever it is coating stuff. It's just not practical to prepare your utility uniform for show.
BDUs in CAP are no different than BDUs in the military. No, we're not wearing them to combat, nor are the troops when they're not deployed or in the field, but no one is demanding or expecting them to starch their uniforms. Some pogues who don't spend their days outside working in manual labor, may enjoy making their ABU/BDUs parade worthy, but those guys are just that, pogues.
The best thing about ABUs and ACUs as well as the Marine Corps cammies, are that they have gotten away from wasting time shining boots, pressing and starching uniforms that are made to get dirty. And by dirty, I'm not just talking in combat, but on the flight line, in the life support shop or on patrol duty as a security policeman.
Quote from: CAPM 39-12-1. c. The battle dress uniform (camouflage fatigue uniform) is worn when it is impractical or
inappropriate to wear the service uniforms.
Translation: You can take your can of spray starch and your Leather Luster and shove it up your [Fourth Point of Contact]. >:D
I realize that I am new here.....but can someone tell me how we went from this......
Quote from: 356cadet on July 12, 2008, 06:48:25 PM
Here's the scoop:
While randomly looking through military uniform regulations, I came across this one:
Quote from: Army Regulation 670-1
Soldiers will not starch the Army Combat Uniform or Battle Dress Uniform under any circumstances. The use of starch, sizing, and any process that involves dry-cleaning or a steam press will adversely affect the treatments and durability of the uniform and is not authorized.
Wash in cold water and mild detergent containing no optical brighteners or bleach. Tumble dry at low heat (not to exceed 130 degrees Farenheit). Remove immediately from the dryer and fold flat or place on a rustproof hanger to ensure heat from the dryer does not set wrinkles. To drip dry, remove from the washer/water and place on a rustproof hanger. Do not wring or twist.
As I looked up the reason for this, it's due to starch enclosing the little holes in the uniform, therefore trapping body heat inside the uniform. This causes the enemy to be able to see our men through night vision thermal and UV sensors.
Now I know this is the Army, and I know this doesn't apply to us. However, I'm pretty sure that the Air Force regs mention this somewhere, and since we are the Air Force Auxiliary, we follow some, if not all, of the regs of the Air Force. I'm also aware that we aren't involved in enemy combat situations, but that shouldn't really matter.
Aside from all this, starch does make the uniform nice and smooth... but it also makes it shiny.
So, what I'm asking you is: should we starch our BDUs? I'm neither attacking or defending starching. I'm stuck in the middle from here. What do you think?
Message icon - MIKE
to this....?
Quote from: MIKE on July 13, 2008, 01:04:20 AM
Quote from: CAPM 39-12-1. c. The battle dress uniform (camouflage fatigue uniform) is worn when it is impractical or
inappropriate to wear the service uniforms.
Translation: You can take your can of spray starch and your Leather Luster and shove it up your [Fourth Point of Contact]. >:D
Did you just catch our main man participating in, nay, almost instigating, thread drift? :clap:
Quote from: RiverAux on July 13, 2008, 04:22:27 AM
Did you just catch our main man participating in, nay, almost instigating, thread drift? :clap:
Well, fancy that!!!
Quote from: RiverAux on July 13, 2008, 04:22:27 AM
Did you just catch our main man participating in, nay, almost instigating, thread drift? :clap:
Actually I was reading in amusement over how we got from Starching BDU's (heavy, full strength, they CAN stand on their own, thank you very much) to debates on sweating (sleeves down may seem hotter, but it does keep you cooler, sleeves up evaporates sweat from your body, causing you to sweat more, draining the life giving water from your feble body).
Oh and I did laugh out loud abotu the 4th pt of contact..... at work, my boss is eyeing me from across the room...
^Probably not wise to educate him/her on the fourth point of contact. This is a very interesting topic though, and since I just bought a new set of BDUs, it's decision time...
To starch or not to starch, that is the question!
Quote from: CadetProgramGuy on July 13, 2008, 04:32:37 AM
Quote from: RiverAux on July 13, 2008, 04:22:27 AM
Did you just catch our main man participating in, nay, almost instigating, thread drift? :clap:
Actually I was reading in amusement over how we got from Starching BDU's (heavy, full strength, they CAN stand on their own, thank you very much) to debates on sweating (sleeves down may seem hotter, but it does keep you cooler, sleeves up evaporates sweat from your body, causing you to sweat more, draining the life giving water from your feble body).
In other words... I brought us back on course.
Quote from: MIKE on July 13, 2008, 03:12:00 PM
Quote from: CadetProgramGuy on July 13, 2008, 04:32:37 AM
Quote from: RiverAux on July 13, 2008, 04:22:27 AM
Did you just catch our main man participating in, nay, almost instigating, thread drift? :clap:
Actually I was reading in amusement over how we got from Starching BDU's (heavy, full strength, they CAN stand on their own, thank you very much) to debates on sweating (sleeves down may seem hotter, but it does keep you cooler, sleeves up evaporates sweat from your body, causing you to sweat more, draining the life giving water from your feble body).
In other words... I brought us back on course.
Thanks MIKE ;D
So to sum it up...
If you super starch your BDUs you'll look good.
If you iron your BDUs you'll look pretty good.
If you take your BDUs out right after they're dry, you'll look ok.
If you leave your BDUs in the basket for a while you'll need improvement.
If you sleep in you BDUs you'll look like crap.
My room mate at encampment starched the crud out of her BDUs. I just hung mine up and spent that extra time cleaning and studying. Uniform inspection came around and we both passed just fine. it's a utility uniform, not a dress uniform! I'd NEVER starch my jeans, why starch the BDUs?
Quote from: Dynamite on July 16, 2008, 02:20:40 PM
My room mate at encampment starched the crud out of her BDUs. I just hung mine up and spent that extra time cleaning and studying. Uniform inspection came around and we both passed just fine. it's a utility uniform, not a dress uniform! I'd NEVER starch my jeans, why starch the BDUs?
Sometimes it's not just about passing.
Quote from: jaybird512 on July 16, 2008, 05:35:49 PM
Sometimes it's not just about passing.
Sometimes it is. At my first encampment they wouldn't let us use starch. For whatever reason, they confiscated it from anyone who brought it.
Personally, I am against starching utility uniforms. I don't starch my jeans or 5.11 tactical pants. To me, BDUs, even for CAP, is not a parade uniform and needs not be starched and prepared for a parade.
Quote from: jaybird512 on July 16, 2008, 05:35:49 PM
Quote from: Dynamite on July 16, 2008, 02:20:40 PM
My room mate at encampment starched the crud out of her BDUs. I just hung mine up and spent that extra time cleaning and studying. Uniform inspection came around and we both passed just fine. it's a utility uniform, not a dress uniform! I'd NEVER starch my jeans, why starch the BDUs?
Sometimes it's not just about passing.
So the cadet should have spent less time studying and cleaning her bay to..........starch her BDUs?
Quote from: Stonewall on July 16, 2008, 06:45:52 PM
Quote from: jaybird512 on July 16, 2008, 05:35:49 PM
Sometimes it's not just about passing.
Sometimes it is. At my first encampment they wouldn't let us use starch. For whatever reason, they confiscated it from anyone who brought it.
Personally, I am against starching utility uniforms. I don't starch my jeans or 5.11 tactical pants. To me, BDUs, even for CAP, is not a parade uniform and needs not be starched and prepared for a parade.
It's a matter of personal opinion. I've always starched mine, both at work and at CAP and I like the way it looks. Maybe I've just seen too many people who look like they've used them for pajamas and I overcompensate. I just think they look much better that way.
Quote from: JThemann on July 16, 2008, 06:47:52 PM
Quote from: jaybird512 on July 16, 2008, 05:35:49 PM
Quote from: Dynamite on July 16, 2008, 02:20:40 PM
My room mate at encampment starched the crud out of her BDUs. I just hung mine up and spent that extra time cleaning and studying. Uniform inspection came around and we both passed just fine. it's a utility uniform, not a dress uniform! I'd NEVER starch my jeans, why starch the BDUs?
Sometimes it's not just about passing.
So the cadet should have spent less time studying and cleaning her bay to..........starch her BDUs?
Apparently not. It looks like they both passed, and that was their objective.
Quote from: jaybird512 on July 17, 2008, 10:55:42 AMIt's a matter of personal opinion. I've always starched mine, both at work and at CAP and I like the way it looks. Maybe I've just seen too many people who look like they've used them for pajamas and I overcompensate. I just think they look much better that way.
You're approaching a fine line between overcompensating and requiring others to follow your example.
Making statements such as "Sometimes it's not just about passing." implies that someone needs to be doing more than they are now. It's a slipperly slope when you start requiring things over and above what the Nationally published manual states.
That being said, looking like a ragbag isn't acceptable either. I can understand certain circumstances such as bivouacs, longer term missions, and DR type ops; but there are still certain basics that should be met. Properly bloused, t-shirts tucked in, wearing a belt, wearing a hat properly (I hate the Skippy look). When it comes to appropriate standards those still need to be met. It doesn't take much to actually go above the basic standards. A little extra is far better than requiring extremes.
Quote from: Hawk200 on July 17, 2008, 02:49:52 PM
Quote from: jaybird512 on July 17, 2008, 10:55:42 AMIt's a matter of personal opinion. I've always starched mine, both at work and at CAP and I like the way it looks. Maybe I've just seen too many people who look like they've used them for pajamas and I overcompensate. I just think they look much better that way.
You're approaching a fine line between overcompensating and requiring others to follow your example.
Making statements such as "Sometimes it's not just about passing." implies that someone needs to be doing more than they are now. It's a slipperly slope when you start requiring things over and above what the Nationally published manual states.
That being said, looking like a ragbag isn't acceptable either. I can understand certain circumstances such as bivouacs, longer term missions, and DR type ops; but there are still certain basics that should be met. Properly bloused, t-shirts tucked in, wearing a belt, wearing a hat properly (I hate the Skippy look). When it comes to appropriate standards those still need to be met. It doesn't take much to actually go above the basic standards. A little extra is far better than requiring extremes.
No one is trying to require the starching of BDUs, and I do believe that there are a lot of things in life that aren't just about passing. I also don't think that starching your clothes is extreme.
There are lots of people in the RM, CAP, and other organizations who will always have different standards for how they like to look and you can look just fine in an ironed uniform if that's what you choose to do. I choose to use the tricks of the trade like starch, epaulet shapers, cardboard backing, garters, etc., with the different uniforms that I wear.
Quote from: jaybird512 on July 17, 2008, 07:37:00 PM
There are lots of people in the RM, CAP, and other organizations who will always have different standards for how they like to look and you can look just fine in an ironed uniform if that's what you choose to do. I choose to use the tricks of the trade like starch, epaulet shapers, cardboard backing, garters, etc., with the different uniforms that I wear.
It's true, different people have different standards on their appearance. However, I routinely receive compliments on my appearance, both in and out of uniform. Apparently, I'm doing something that doesn't hinge on the use of starch.
What about people that can't use starch? I'm one of them. Gives me a rash. Even fabric sizing will if I use enough and manage to sweat into it. I get the impression that you would think less of me for not using starch, and you would never even know why.
I do iron my uniforms (the whole thing, not just the fronts, sleeves, or pants legs), polish my boots, make sure T-shirt isn't stretched out, properly blouse pants, and make sure I don't have strings or lint. I don't spend more than an hour on that in a whole week. Anything more is overachieving and unnecessary. It's a simple case of diminished returns.
Try the flame test: Take a piece of summer weight woodland camo cloth. Cut it in half. Heavily starch one piece and let dry. Hang side by side. Expose to open flame. Which one would you rather wear?
I know the Cadet culture loves their starched BDU's, and rolled up sleeves, but please make sure you understand the consequences. Some friends and I joked years ago about making body armor ("bullet proof" vests) with most of the Kevlar removed and a neoprene abdominal "six-Pack" substituted. Our marketing motto was to have been "When looking good is more important than survival!" People would have bought it too!
Major Lord
Quote from: Hawk200 on July 17, 2008, 08:01:44 PM
Quote from: jaybird512 on July 17, 2008, 07:37:00 PM
There are lots of people in the RM, CAP, and other organizations who will always have different standards for how they like to look and you can look just fine in an ironed uniform if that's what you choose to do. I choose to use the tricks of the trade like starch, epaulet shapers, cardboard backing, garters, etc., with the different uniforms that I wear.
It's true, different people have different standards on their appearance. However, I routinely receive compliments on my appearance, both in and out of uniform. Apparently, I'm doing something that doesn't hinge on the use of starch.
What about people that can't use starch? I'm one of them. Gives me a rash. Even fabric sizing will if I use enough and manage to sweat into it. I get the impression that you would think less of me for not using starch, and you would never even know why.
I do iron my uniforms (the whole thing, not just the fronts, sleeves, or pants legs), polish my boots, make sure T-shirt isn't stretched out, properly blouse pants, and make sure I don't have strings or lint. I don't spend more than an hour on that in a whole week. Anything more is overachieving and unnecessary. It's a simple case of diminished returns.
Now Hawk, I wouldn't think any less of you for not using starch. ;)
I would have never though Starching or not starting would have been such a huge issue. I Starch them I would guess mostly out of habit. I did so in the Army so I would do so wearing the BDUs again. I am not some pouge that set in a office doing paper work I was out on the flight line and such. I have do take pride in how I look both in the RM and CAP. Maybe more so in CAP to be the example to the cadets which sadly in some units there is not a real good uniform example setter.
As the IR stuff I buy it to a point. FLIR is going to see you it picks up heat. Startched or not your body still produces heat. NODs though or NVGs look for light. I have seen a slight difference I wouls assume between two soldiers and I belive it to be the "shine"factor on the startch.
In the field I wouldnt dream of starch. Why? Becasue I find it unconfritable. The startch bothers my skin when I am sweating and working multiple days. Plus unstartched would ball up easier in a ruck.
On the Parade uniform I would say other wise. I couldnt tell you how many formations I have been in, change of command, pass and review, or actually parades in BDUs. So yeah I had a set just set a side for that. Double starched and boots to match that were only worn for those events. I did though show up to work with polished boots and a starched uniform because it gave a good impression. I didnt want to press them everyday, which i see as an option as well, so i chose starch. It is like the old adage goes "if it looks good it is good"
Quote from: hatentx on July 18, 2008, 01:16:17 AM
I would have never though Starching or not starting would have been such a huge issue.
It's not. You're witnessing a handful of stubborn people talking about something that has absolutely no bearing on how they get their jobs done. None of us are going to budge but we'll argue it till we get locked or we lose interest.
Just remember: it's polish your shoes and iron your uniform, not the other way around. ;D
Quote from: Dad2-4 on July 18, 2008, 01:22:17 PM
Just remember: it's polish your shoes and iron your uniform, not the other way around. ;D
Oh man, after I went to all the trouble to put the creases in my boots and the spit shine on my field uniform. >:(
Quote from: hatentx on July 18, 2008, 01:16:17 AM
I would have never though Starching or not starting would have been such a huge issue.
Its not. Either you do it or you don't. "Why" is based as much on trivial circumstances as any particularly supportable position.
What you are witnessing is a phenomenon of the internet forum known as "I can't stand to not get in the last word".
(I suffer from it myself, and some could argue that this posting is a manifestation.)Because of this, rhetoric about trivial subjects is repeatedly raised higher and higher in an attempt to make an argument regarding subjects which do not justify the emotion or even the discussion time.
By the 2nd or 2rd page of postings you have people writing 3-page, multi-quoted responses in an effort to head off in advance every anticipated counter to whether or not the ink on a form should be blue or black.
The reality is that 95% of the postings on this board are either announcement-based information, which in themselves require no comment, or answered in 1-2 responses with regulation-based answers that some people either don't like, or don't agree with, which then results in the histrionics and silly arguments we all get into.
And yes, if I don't like it I don't have to read it, but at a minimum we should all recognize it for what it is.
Last word >:D
Quote from: lordmonar on July 18, 2008, 07:31:35 PM
Quote from: hatentx on July 18, 2008, 05:32:27 PM
Last word >:D
Last Word >:D
Taking bets now... person closest to the time this thread gets locked, without going over.
10...
Usually its Stonewall, but I will give it a go!
Last word.
Unless another moderator or administrator posts.