Does anyone know of a specific regulation that would prevent a parent who is a qualified CAP member in Cadet Programs from becoming Deputy Commander of Cadets if the existing Cadet Commander was the parents child? Thank you!
None exists. Its quite common.
Thank you, I could not find any regulation and the two people that are involved actually work quite well as a team. I did not want to be accused of going against the regulations.
The only place I've ever been cautious here and simply to avoid the illusion of impropriety is while their child is also a cadet I wouldn't let them administer tests.
Again there is nothing that says you can't but CYA can't be overlooked.
Deputy Commander for Cadets
Some of the most dedicated I've seen were parents. It depends on the person - If the DCC is there only to make sure their Johnny or Sally gets as far as possible with little or no sweat, then there's a problem. But if they've really caught the vision of the program as I've seen, it will be great for the program. Talk to the commander if you think there's a problem.
In a lot of units, from my experience anyway, the DCC is almost always going to end up being the parent of a cadet. You just dont see many adults with that kind of time and dedication willing to spend it with someone elses kids without some sort of direct connection.
Quote from: Flying Pig on November 21, 2009, 11:54:06 PM
In a lot of units, from my experience anyway, the DCC is almost always going to end up being the parent of a cadet. You just dont see many adults with that kind of time and dedication willing to spend it with someone elses kids without some sort of direct connection.
Past cadets?!?
When I was DCC, I NEVER administered a test for my daughter. When it came to the fitness test, I would have someone else do the counting and verify my recording of such. I made sure everything was above reproach.
Quote from: Pumbaa on November 22, 2009, 01:54:40 AM
When I was DCC, I NEVER administered a test for my daughter. When it came to the fitness test, I would have someone else do the counting and verify my recording of such. I made sure everything was above reproach.
I applaude you for that, most of the time you do not see that in a DCC. I have a passion for the job and I do not have any kinds in the program, but I look at all the cadets as my kids.
Anyone can have the job of DCC if they are qualified as such. But as a Commander, you have to have the right person for the job....
Folks, if you insist on using office symbols for abbreviations, how about using the correct ones.
DC = Director of Communications
DCC = does not appear in CAPR 10-1; not sure what it might stand for
CD = Deputy Commander
CDC = Deputy Commander for Cadets, by extension; does not appear in CAPR 10-1
CDS = Deputy Commander for Seniors, by extension; does not appear in CAPR 10-1
You're complaining that they're not using the right symbols at the same time you're saying that no such official symbol exists?
Deputy Commander for Cadets = DCC
Ive been in CAP since 1987, mostly in cadet programs and its the term I have always heard and used. I would say its accepted.
CD stands for Deputy Commander? Ive always used DC. Where I am, CD stands for Counter Drug. Ahhhh. Stop the madness.
Quote from: Flying Pig on November 22, 2009, 05:22:08 PM
Ive been in CAP since 1987, mostly in cadet programs and its the term I have always heard and used. I would say its accepted.
CD stands for Deputy Commander? Ive always used DC. Where I am, CD stands for Counter Drug. Ahhhh. Stop the madness.
It also stands for Character development now
CDC & CDS are "more" correct from an office symbol standpoint than DCC.
Guys, this subject comes up at least every 6 months.
"I am the DCC of a squadron." - Good
FROM: SWR-TX-041/DCC - Bad (Like Dave said, DC is communications so DCC would be a sub-functional of communications)
"I am the CDC of a squadron." - Bad (I am not the Centers for Disease Control)
FROM: SWR-TX-041/CDC - Good
I am a 1Lt and when I first became CDC or DCC or whatever symbol you want to use (here, it is referred to as DCC because CD is referred to as Counter Drug), I did not have a cadet in the program.
However, I have since married and my step-daughter was so interested in the program that she joined in and has been absolutely loving it (she is now a C/A1C and been to encampment). As a matter of fact, even my new wife joined and is now the admin officer for cadet programs. I have a CP staff of 6 senior members (LTC is Leadership, SM is Admin, 1Lts as AEO (cadets), ESO (cadets), 2Lts as Cadet Activities and Supply (Cadets)). I am also the cadet testing officer. The staff feels that it does not matter that I now have a cadet in the program. There is no preferential treatment given to my daughter, by anyone. I grade her tests, just like I do everyone else's. She has failed three of her tests, (not consecutively – though the last one was close to being consecutive). She has passed all of her CPFTs by wide margins.
There is one word that keeps all of this going. INTEGRITY – I have the integrity to do what I am supposed to do, which is treat her as any other cadet. I do not make any special provisions (such as having someone else grade her tests) because to me that is telling the cadets "I have to take special actions so no one questions my integrity to do the right thing." That could then lead to them questioning "Why does he have to take special measures to appear honorable? Are there times he does not have integrity?" To me, the core values should be so instilled that it would take a darn good reason to even question them in someone else. Having said that, anyone that would question if she was getting special treatment would be questioning my integrity, which would be highly insulting.
When my daughter, and later my wife, joined, there was some grumbling amongst a couple of the cadet's parents. They were upset that the previously "pristine environment" of the squadron was being changed to reflect racial diversity. I am white, my wife and daughter are black. I overheard them talking about how they (the parents) were afraid that "a bad element" would take over the squadron. (I brought this to the attention of the SQ CC and he is 100% supportive of us)
So I would not be surprised if allegations were raised. I do protect myself by retaining the originals of her testing answer sheets (with the consent of the SQ CC). We normally destroy the answer portions of the sheets, retaining the tops to put in the file. However, if the question or accusation was ever made, I can pull out the complete answer sheets showing every one of her tests, so there is no question that I did not fudge her scores. But I am not going to change the way I overtly do business because I am afraid of someone questioning my integrity. If they do, they are in for a big surprise.
So yes, you can be Deputy Commander for Cadets and function well in that capacity – all by continuing to live by CAP's Core Values.
Hate to tell you this, but as Deputy Commander, you should not be the testing officer. CAP R50-4, paragraph 1-2 states that a commander can not be the testing officer. That also includes Deputy Commanders.
CAP R20-1 states in the job descriptions for Commanders that the same job descriptions also include Deputy Commanders.
Quote from: LtCol057 on November 22, 2009, 06:48:21 PM
Hate to tell you this, but as Deputy Commander, you should not be the testing officer. CAP R50-4, paragraph 1-2 states that a commander can not be the testing officer. That also includes Deputy Commanders.
CAP R20-1 states in the job descriptions for Commanders that the same job descriptions also include Deputy Commanders.
That's a stretch - sharing the same job description is not the same as being the Commander.
There is no regulatory restriction on this.
Quote from: LtCol057 on November 22, 2009, 06:48:21 PM
Hate to tell you this, but as Deputy Commander, you should not be the testing officer. CAP R50-4, paragraph 1-2 states that a commander can not be the testing officer. That also includes Deputy Commanders.
CAP R20-1 states in the job descriptions for Commanders that the same job descriptions also include Deputy Commanders.
That's not what it states. It states THE commander may not serve as TCO.
Quote1-2. Test Control Officer (TCO). Each CAP wing and unit commander will ensure positive control of testing materials to preclude compromise. They will appoint a TCO and Test Administrator(s), by letter, for test security and administration. These positions are usually assigned to members working in professional development and cadet programs. THE COMMANDER MAY NOT SERVE AS TCO OR TEST ADMINISTRATOR. The unit commander must keep the letter current and on file in the unit and send a copy to wing headquarters. Wing headquarters must send a copy of the appointment letter for the wing TCO and Test Administrators to: HQ AU/CFRR via fax to 334.953.8127. Notify HQ AU/CFRR via fax at: 334.953.8127 each time wing level testing personnel change. TCOs and Test Administrators must be at least 21 years old.
Quote from: davidsinn on November 22, 2009, 07:19:53 PM
That's not what it states. It states THE commander may not serve as TCO.
Quote[snip]... These positions are usually assigned to members working in professional development and cadet programs. THE COMMANDER MAY NOT SERVE AS TCO OR TEST ADMINISTRATOR.
And even more to the point -- "members working in professional development and cadet programs" sounds a whole heck of a lot like the deputy commanders for seniors and cadets to me.
I am not the TCO, merely a test administrator. Our PDO is the TCO. Besides, isn't there only ONE commander at each level? Seems to me that they are THE Commander.
Here's another gem from CAPR 10-1: the Counter Drug office symbol is DOC. DO = Director of Operations, and C for the counter Drug section.
DCC - accepted? Yes. Correct? Not really.
But, like "Class A" uniforms, a part of our screwed up lexicon that not enough people want to make an effort to fix.
Quote from: SarDragon on November 22, 2009, 08:29:39 AM
Folks, if you insist on using office symbols for abbreviations, how about using the correct ones.
DC = Director of Communications
DCC = does not appear in CAPR 10-1; not sure what it might stand for
CD = Deputy Commander
CDC = Deputy Commander for Cadets, by extension; does not appear in CAPR 10-1
CDS = Deputy Commander for Seniors, by extension; does not appear in CAPR 10-1
Wow....since the question was about Deputy Commander For Cadets.......we can use our intellect to reason that "DCC" stands for "Deputy Commander for Cadets". Come on now Sir!
Hey, I just calls 'em like I sees 'em. That's straight out of CAPR 10-1.
Well you can do like I do...
Anytime someone throws out an acronym, I ask what it means, even if I already know it. Too many people throw them around without consideration of others.
The proper way to use acronyms in written correspondence is to define the acronym on it's first use or have a glossary of them at the back. In conversation there is no reason to use acronyms.
Quote from: CAPR 10-1Attachment 6. Civil Air Patrol Functional Address Symbols
The following functional address symbols apply to all units unless otherwise indicated and should be used when corresponding to units below National Headquarters. These address symbols are shown by functional areas and should not be construed as duty titles. The exact duty titles are covered by other directives.
So as a Deputy Commander for Seniors (a CAPR 20-1 title) my office symbol is CD-Seniors or CDS, but the abbreviation for my job can certainly be DCS. Just as the Counter Drug officer is the CDO who's office symbol is DOC.
Yes it get confusing....but since we don't use automated messaging anywhy it does not really matter.
The term I have always heard around my wing by more experienced members than myself is DCC. Its what I hear and what I use. it may be the "official regs" term, but its what we say in fact in the entire SER thats what I hear.
But, to answer the original question, I find quite often that the parent of a cadet usually serves as DCC.
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 06, 2009, 05:26:43 PM
The term I have always heard around my wing by more experienced members than myself is DCC. Its what I hear and what I use. it may be the "official regs" term, but its what we say in fact in the entire SER thats what I hear.
But, to answer the original question, I find quite often that the parent of a cadet usually serves as DCC.
Just because it is used, doesn't make it right.
Thats very true. But we all use slang and shorthand many times in general conversation. We say things like DFAC and PDQ and others. We call Lt Col's Col's and what not. When asked what unit are you in, a ot of people will say "I'm in VA 109" instead of the actual name of the squadron. Its just common everyday talk. Nothing to get excited about. Its not that serious.
For the record, a DC is a communications officer at squadron and group levels (it's DOK at wing level and A6C at region level, at least in SER). If a unit extended DCC as a functional address symbol, I don't know what the additional C would mean.
Calling a deputy commander for cadets a DCC isn't any different from calling a public affairs officer a PAO. For the record, a public affairs officer at virtually every level is a PA, not a PAO. (And it's A6PA at HQ SER, but yeah, they're doing A-staff.)
That just illustrates the point.
CAP regulations say nothing about A staff codes that the USAF uses.
Just like calling your service coat your "class A's" is not "right" it hurts on one to call it that.
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 08, 2009, 02:27:35 AM
But we all use slang and shorthand many times in general conversation. We say things like DFAC and PDQ and others. We call Lt Col's Col's and what not.
That is not slang or shorthand. IAW Air Force Pamphlet 34-1202, Guide to Protocol, you address a Lt Colonel as Colonel unless you are making a formal introduction. Same applies to the other ranks, you address officers by their base rank: a Lt Gen is General, a Brig Gen is General, and a 2nd Lt is Lieutenant.
Quote from: Short Field on December 08, 2009, 08:04:04 AM
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 08, 2009, 02:27:35 AM
But we all use slang and shorthand many times in general conversation. We say things like DFAC and PDQ and others. We call Lt Col's Col's and what not.
That is not slang or shorthand. IAW Air Force Pamphlet 34-1202, Guide to Protocol, you address a Lt Colonel as Colonel unless you are making a formal introduction. Same applies to the other ranks, you address officers by their base rank: a Lt Gen is General, a Brig Gen is General, and a 2nd Lt is Lieutenant.
Sorry, I couldnt think of an example. Wow. didnt know you'd quote the actual reg to me. How do you guys find the time to do that?
It's really not that hard, and the information can be found in multiple publications.
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 08, 2009, 01:10:41 PM
Sorry, I couldnt think of an example. Wow. didnt know you'd quote the actual reg to me. How do you guys find the time to do that?
Assuming its not something you just knew, Google makes short work of searches like that these days.
Besides, there are people who could tell you the shoe sizes of the starting line up of the '37 Toledo Mudhens - its all just about what you're interested in.
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 08, 2009, 01:10:41 PM
Quote from: Short Field on December 08, 2009, 08:04:04 AM
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 08, 2009, 02:27:35 AM
But we all use slang and shorthand many times in general conversation. We say things like DFAC and PDQ and others. We call Lt Col's Col's and what not.
That is not slang or shorthand. IAW Air Force Pamphlet 34-1202, Guide to Protocol, you address a Lt Colonel as Colonel unless you are making a formal introduction. Same applies to the other ranks, you address officers by their base rank: a Lt Gen is General, a Brig Gen is General, and a 2nd Lt is Lieutenant.
Sorry, I couldnt think of an example. Wow. didnt know you'd quote the actual reg to me. How do you guys find the time to do that?
To even bring it back closer to CAP World before someone says "we're not the Air Force" -- CAPP 151.
Quote from: McLarty on December 08, 2009, 05:02:36 PM
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 08, 2009, 01:10:41 PM
Quote from: Short Field on December 08, 2009, 08:04:04 AM
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 08, 2009, 02:27:35 AM
But we all use slang and shorthand many times in general conversation. We say things like DFAC and PDQ and others. We call Lt Col's Col's and what not.
That is not slang or shorthand. IAW Air Force Pamphlet 34-1202, Guide to Protocol, you address a Lt Colonel as Colonel unless you are making a formal introduction. Same applies to the other ranks, you address officers by their base rank: a Lt Gen is General, a Brig Gen is General, and a 2nd Lt is Lieutenant.
Sorry, I couldnt think of an example. Wow. didnt know you'd quote the actual reg to me. How do you guys find the time to do that?
To even bring it back closer to CAP World before someone says "we're not the Air Force" -- CAPP 151.
Thanks,
Quote from: SarDragon on November 22, 2009, 08:29:39 AM
Folks, if you insist on using office symbols for abbreviations, how about using the correct ones.
DCC = does not appear in CAPR 10-1; not sure what it might stand for
CD = Deputy Commander
CDC = Deputy Commander for Cadets, by extension; does not appear in CAPR 10-1
CDS = Deputy Commander for Seniors, by extension; does not appear in CAPR 10-1
I tried hard to get everyone to convert from "DCC" to "CDC" when I was a Group Cadet Programs Development Officer. I failed miserably. Even my echelon commander wouldn't acknowledge it! :)
What I learned from that experience is that even though the nomenclature is not officially authorized, there are certain acronyms that just "work". "DCC" is one of them. Everyone seems to understand what it means. "Class A blues" is another. It will be interesting to see how long it takes for us to get used to saying "CAP" instead of "CAP-Flight" on our radio calls.
Eventually you have to bow to the demands of effectively
communicating with your audience. Play Don Quixote for too long, tilting at nits, and eventually you'll be performing before a deaf audience.
OBC text uses DCC, go figure.
Quote from: EMT-83 on January 05, 2010, 04:28:09 AM
OBC text uses DCC, go figure.
I wouldn't hitch my wagon to that - word is the OBC is riddled with grammatical and spelling errors.
Our publications and online systems are a wealth of inconsistencies.