Save Ribbon

Wallygator · August 23, 2009, 02:12:41 AM

OK, Here is my quandary. I was a member of a ground team that helped to find a lady that was stuck in her car, out in the desert, for a day and a half. She turned out to be OK. So later I find out that the AFRCC has given the wing credit for a "save". I can not find a ribbon for a "save". I know that there is a ribbon for a "find", and there is a ribbon for "life saving" but i don't see one for a "save". What's the deal?

Camas · August 23, 2009, 02:18:11 AM

I've heard that term used for lifesaving so you might want to check with your personnel officer. I commend you and your team for your fine work in finding this lady; I'm sure she's going to think very highly of the Civil Air Patrol in the future.

Hawk200 · August 23, 2009, 02:23:27 AM

There is no "save" ribbon. You should be awarded the "Find" ribbon.

IceNine · August 23, 2009, 03:45:21 AM

This is entriely unclear throughout the regs.

60-3 outlines Find, Distress Find, and Save. But only defines award of find and distress finds.

My assumption is that a Save would qualify for lifesaving but there is no backing for that in the regs.

Let us know what you find out, I'm interested to see how this is handled

lordmonar · August 23, 2009, 03:51:59 AM

If you found her....then you get a find. Finds and find ribbons are approved by the wing commander. Send a CAPF 2a up the chain with the relevent information and get it approved.

Saves are just a nice to have......it could be used to justify a lifesafing ribbon but it is not automatic, as you can get a "save" for and organ or blood transport mission as well.

If you want to try for the lifesaving ribbon....do up a CAPF 120 up to the wing.

Wallygator · August 23, 2009, 04:36:20 AM

Quote from: IceNine on August 23, 2009, 03:45:21 AM
This is entriely unclear throughout the regs.

60-3 outlines Find, Distress Find, and Save. But only defines award of find and distress finds.

My assumption is that a Save would qualify for lifesaving but there is no backing for that in the regs.

Let us know what you find out, I'm interested to see how this is handled

That's what I can up with.
39-3 9.g. Talks about "Certificate of Recognition for Life Saving" and has a line about a save but doesn't say how you are to be nominated for the certificate.

I put the question to the knowledge base and they said it was answered by forwarding it to the expert. I have not heard back from the expert.

JohnKachenmeister · August 23, 2009, 01:20:14 PM

Quote from: Wallygator on August 23, 2009, 04:36:20 AM
Quote from: IceNine on August 23, 2009, 03:45:21 AM
This is entriely unclear throughout the regs.

60-3 outlines Find, Distress Find, and Save. But only defines award of find and distress finds.

My assumption is that a Save would qualify for lifesaving but there is no backing for that in the regs.

Let us know what you find out, I'm interested to see how this is handled

That's what I can up with.
39-3 9.g. Talks about "Certificate of Recognition for Life Saving" and has a line about a save but doesn't say how you are to be nominated for the certificate.

I put the question to the knowledge base and they said it was answered by forwarding it to the expert. I have not heard back from the expert.

The real experts are here, and LordM is one of them. You definitely get a "Find" for the distress find. The recognition by AFRCC that you saved one life should be sufficient to justify the Lifesaving certificate in your situation, but that is not automatic nor always appropriate, as others have already noted.

And Bravo Zulu on the save. Extra ration of grog to every man-jack of your gallant crew.

Flying Pig · August 23, 2009, 03:36:19 PM

For a Life Saving, you would have to show that your actions are actually what saved her life and that your actions did in fact save her life. You said when you found her she was OK? For the life saving ribbon, your actions would have had to be specifically credited for saving her life. She was drowning and you did CPR and brought her back. She was bleeding profusely and you stopped the bleeding and saved her. If you do a SAR mission and locate the missing person, who is fine, you and your team rates a worthy "Save". Life Saving Ribbons are not awarded for what "might" have happened if you hadnt found her. There are a lot of variables in SAR and I think CAP has a good award progression. Find, Save, Life Saving. You did a good thing so pat yourself on the back.

Where the "Save" vs "Find" comes into play is the amount you need to justify additional triangular clasps or propellers if you are part of an aircrew. 20 Non-Distress Finds rate a triangular clasp, where each individual "Save" rates one. There are no "Saves" per se, there are only distress and non-distress "Finds" You'll notice also that the Life Saving Medal is awarded in situations where the Bronze Medal of Valor would not be justified.

IceNine · August 23, 2009, 04:26:22 PM

^ Not only for Aircrew.

While it is titled the air search and rescue ribbon, it can be awarded to ground, and base personnel as well.

PHall · August 23, 2009, 06:16:22 PM

If you "saved" her life on an Search Mission, and AFRCC makes the determination if it is a save, then you may be eligible for the Lifesaving Award. You have to be awarded a find by the IC first.

If you weren't on a mission then the Bronze Medal of Valor or something similar may be called for.
The "save" credit here would probably be determined by the MD at the ER or the EMS agency that handled the call.

The big point is that you are not the one who makes the "save" call.

JohnKachenmeister · August 23, 2009, 09:06:08 PM

I think we need a better definition of "OK."

I cannot imagine someone out on the desert in a car for 36 hours still being "OK" unless that person was well-prepared for survival with ample water. Most motorists are not.

If "OK" means the person was still alive, then we have to look at whether or not the combined actions of CAP made sure the person stayed that way. The Latin phrase I'm looking for is "Sine Qui Non," Without which, nothing.

If she would have survived with or without CAP help, no Lifesaving award. If she would have died unless CAP found her as quickly as we did, award.

Flying Pig · August 23, 2009, 11:22:18 PM

No, thats a Distress Find. Lifesaving is that you actually took Lifesaving action.

coolkites · August 24, 2009, 03:55:31 AM

I figure that she might have died out in the desert had CAP not found her so therefor it might be a Save.

IceNine · August 24, 2009, 04:09:11 AM

Ask this question to someone who can impact what if any awards are presented.

A GREAT place to start is your squadron commander.

Speculation will not get anything done and that's all we can do here. We can offer our version of the interpretation of the reg but without the details that would be required to justify the award we cannot make a determination.

And if you're going to go through all the trouble to write in that much detail here you might as well just do it on a CAPF 120 and let your chain decide.

lordmonar · August 24, 2009, 04:15:33 AM

That is more or less what I said about 10 post back.

coolkites · August 24, 2009, 05:33:45 AM

Quote from: lordmonar on August 24, 2009, 04:15:33 AM
That is more or less what I said about 10 post back.

And I completely agree

N Harmon · August 24, 2009, 12:48:45 PM

When it comes to awards, when in doubt I send it up. It might get denied by higher echelons, but it has no chance of getting approved if you don't send it.

If this is the SAR mission I think it is, then the Certificate of Recognition for Lifesaving is certainly appropriate.

Eclipse · August 24, 2009, 01:05:25 PM

"Find", "Distress Find", and "Save" are statistical categories used by AFRCC and other agencies in regards to the results of a respective mission.

They aren't directly linked to a specific decoration.

Find and distress finds get the same ribbon. As noted, a "Save" might be grounds for a decoration, and it might not - also, not all the members of a "save" crew would necessarily quality in the subjective opinion of a commander approving the 120.

CAPSGT · August 24, 2009, 02:09:24 PM

The criteria for award of the "Certificate of Recognition for Lifesaving" is extremely loose. Per CAPR 39-3, simply flying a blood or organ transport mission qualifies as a "lifesaving action."

While CAPR 60-3 and 39-3 do not blatently say "Save credit=Lifesaving Award", it seems pretty clear to me that the intent of the regulations is that the section in 60-3 referring to "Save credit" is referring to eligibility for the Certificate of Recognition for Lifesaving in 39-3.

I know that since I joined, every member of my wing who has been credited with a save has been awarded the Certificate of Recognition for Lifesaving.

JohnKachenmeister · August 24, 2009, 02:13:45 PM

The question facing higher HQ is... Did the actions of the nominated CAP member cause a life to be saved, or conversely, if it were not for the actions of the nominated CAP member, would a person have died?

If the answer is "Yes," the award should be approved.

If the answer is "No" or "Maybe," the award should be disapproved.