Another new AF uniform?

[Walkman]

(I hope I'm not opening a can of worms here...)

I was checking out the ceremony for incoming CSAF Gen Walsh. Is the uniform he & Gen Schwartz are wearing a new service dress variant? I've never seen it before. Those that are AD USAF, please fill me in.

And no speculating as to when CAP gets to wear this one...

[Hawk200]

Where'd you find that pic? Might be a few clues in there. I'd be interested in reading about it myself.

[Eclipse]

http://www.c-span.org/Events/US-Air-Force-Holds-Ceremony-to-Swear-In-New-Chief-of-Staff/10737433021/





That's the USAF band uniform...


Why are the CSAFs wearing that?

[Extremepredjudice]

Maybe they felt very musical that day? 

[Sapper168]

Maybe the CSAF has the authority to alter his uniform or choose a variant like the CSA does?

[Garibaldi]

Maybe it's like this...there's dress, service dress, and mess dress? In the Army, if memory serves, there's your dress greens, then there's a white formal dress, and for the really spiffy occasion, the actual dress blues that are blue. I admit, it's been years since I cared enough to keep up with the Army dress uniforms, but maybe these uniforms are a step between regular everyday dress blues and mess dress?

[AirDX]

If you're the CSAF, you're pretty much the leader of the band, so why not?

[AngelWings]

He be feeling the blues 

[abdsp51]

Looks like one of the uniform ideas that was pitched and canned.  I have not heard anything about a new service or formal dress uniform other than the new service variant was post poned with other changes.

[spacecommand]

As mentioned, the USAF Band Uniform, though a bit modified with full medals instead of ribbons.

[Cliff_Chambliss]

When I first looked at it I thought maybe a couple of Russian Gerals?  then I realized who they were.  Well at least they don't look like a bus driver.

Several years ago when I was instructing at Maxwel AFB there was some talk of the AF going back to their roots so to speak and re-inventing the pre WWI uniforms.  As I was not Air Force and really did not care much for CAP at the time I never paid much attention.  However it looks like at least two people paid some attention.

[Eclipse]

Several years ago when I was instructing at Maxwel AFB there was some talk of the AF going back to their roots so to speak and re-inventing the pre WWI uniforms.  As I was not Air Force and really did not care much for CAP at the time I never paid much attention.  However it looks like at least two people paid some attention.

That would be these:


and / or these:



Officially shelved indefinitely.

[PHall]

Several years ago when I was instructing at Maxwel AFB there was some talk of the AF going back to their roots so to speak and re-inventing the pre WWI uniforms.  As I was not Air Force and really did not care much for CAP at the time I never paid much attention.  However it looks like at least two people paid some attention.

That would be these:


and / or these:



Officially shelved indefinitely.

Unless the new guy decides to take them back off the shelf.

New CSAF, new priorities. And this guy is a card carrying member of the "Fighter Pilot Mafia", unlike GEN Swartz.

[MSgt Van]

With full size medals to boot...

[Hawk200]

Maybe it's like this...there's dress, service dress, and mess dress? In the Army, if memory serves, there's your dress greens, then there's a white formal dress, and for the really spiffy occasion, the actual dress blues that are blue. I admit, it's been years since I cared enough to keep up with the Army dress uniforms, but maybe these uniforms are a step between regular everyday dress blues and mess dress?

Greens are gone. The Dress Blue has been "modified" for wear as the "Army Service Uniform." Don't know if the whites are still around, if they are, they aren't seen that often.

If these generals have decided to implement a new formal dress, it's kind of interesting. I think I like it better than the current mess dress.

[Eclipse]

You'd see that as a replacement for mess dress? 

You wouldn't wear mess dress to a swearing in ceremony, would you?

[lordmonar]

Maybe the CSAF has the authority to alter his uniform or choose a variant like the CSA does?

??

You know....the CSAF has the authority to do anything he wants that is not prohibited by law?  He is not hampered by a National Board like our National Commander.   

[winterg]

This was on the USAF Facebook page.

"Gen. Mark A. Welsh III addresses an audience after being sworn in as the 20th Air Force chief of staff during a ceremony at Joint Base Andrews, Md., Aug. 10, 2012. The unique ceremonial uniforms worn by the CSAF and the chief master sergeant of the Air Force during today's transition ceremony are authorized for wear only by these senior leaders when they attend events of a ceremonial nature. They are not intended for wear by any other individuals, groups, or the entire Air Force. (U.S. Air Force photo by Senior Airman Christina Brownlow) (KJT)"

[Critical AOA]

"I'd like the ceremonials."  will soon replace "I'd like the ABUs" as the mantra of cadets everywhere.

[BrannG]

I was just about to post exactly what WinterG posted. They made a big deal on facebook in response to the uniforms. I won't copy paste as WinterG already did that

[AngelWings]

"I'd like the ceremonials."  will soon replace "I'd like the ABUs" as the mantra of cadets everywhere.

"May I have the ceremonials! I want the Marine Corps look a like uniform pleaze!"

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I hope it's just a very restricted ceremonial uniform as I think it's quite ugly.

I would much prefer that we go back to these, with CAP cutouts/buttons and hard rank/blue nameplates for everyone.

[LGM30GMCC]

AD Me - There are times I think the USAF could use a ceremonial uniform that sits between Service Dress and Mess Dress in terms of formality. That being said, this uniform is a bit odd and would likely look horrific on some of our more...rotund...members. That being said, I hope the USAF continues to have a focus on nukes, RPAs, and devleopment of Airman over uniforms, manned fighters, and the like. It does also seem to me like some general wanted to feel special.

CAP Me - No real need, unnecessary cost, and finding a civilian equivalent when culturally we rarely would have something like this would be difficult at best.

[Flying Pig]

This is rant...... so skip it if your not interested. 

Holy COW......  That looks freakin stupid.  #1 the Air Force does not have any historical reference to having the high collar.  Maybe if they had started wearing it.... oh, I dont know, 100+ years ago that would be fine, but to intro it in 2012?  Lame...  The jacket with the belt?  Naaaaa...... If you want to show off your belly, go ahead.   When the Marines want to model a uniform the get some harda-- looking Sgt. Major with a bayonet scar on his cheek and a stack of medals who is in ripped physical shape.  When the AF models a uniform they get a guy who looks like my old biology teacher.  At least tailor them so they fit before you cinch down the belt.  Good grief......  who dresses these people.  If I had showed up to a dress blues inspection looking like a sack of potatoes I would have been on field day duty for 6 months.  The Air Force uses that look to convince people these uniforms look good.  Nothing beats the good ol' AF Class A jacket from the 90s.  Just the simple 4 pocket service coat. 

[Майор Хаткевич]

I agree somewhat, but...

*goes to Google.*
*sees Billy Mitchell with high collar*

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

The similarities are too close for comfort...

[LGM30GMCC]

Ya know...a lot of the AFs in the early years had very similar uniforms because a lot of countries have fairly similar uniforms.

Heck, even now there tends to be 'very similar to US' look, a 'Very similar to GB look', and the Soviet look...go figure. And even with that, the differences aren't that dramatic. They tend to all break down to 'some kind of over jacket, shirt with tie under it.'

I would love a dark blue uniform that is similar to STII-VI style, or similar to Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within. But part of that is the style just isn't here yet.

But yeah...these uniforms just feel like someone threw them together and wanted to look pretty and fancy. And given Gen Schwartz' view on new uniforms, I doubt it was him. Or maybe he just decided to have some laughs on his way out. 'Holy cow...look what I can make this guy do. This is fun!'

[NCRblues]

This is rant...... so skip it if your not interested. 

Holy COW......  That looks freakin stupid.  #1 the Air Force does not have any historical reference to having the high collar.  Maybe if they had started wearing it.... oh, I dont know, 100+ years ago that would be fine, but to intro it in 2012? 

Um.... http://www.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/web/020903-o-9999b-082.jpg

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Ya know...a lot of the AFs in the early years had very similar uniforms because a lot of countries have fairly similar uniforms.

The majority of air forces' uniforms come from the first independent air force - the Royal Air Force.  The Ike jacket came from the British battledress blouse.



The Commonwealth Dominions, except for South Africa, which kept British Army uniforms, and Australia, which had dark blue uniforms (still does), just took RAF uniform and added nationality shoulder flashes.

The early USAF uniform was quite similar to the RAF, especially in colour (compare the RAF battledress with USAF Ike jacket) and the "Heritage uniform" (the one with the belt) is very close to a modern RAAF service dress:



Point?

Everything old is new again, and there is nothing new under the sun.

[PHall]

I hope it's just a very restricted ceremonial uniform as I think it's quite ugly.

I would much prefer that we go back to these, with CAP cutouts/buttons and hard rank/blue nameplates for everyone.

Did you even bother to read the post above that stated that this is a Restricted Ceremonial Uniform that is only worn by the Chief of Staff and the Command Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force?

CAP will never, ever wear this uniform.

So what was your rant about?

[Flying Pig]

I agree somewhat, but...

*goes to Google.*
*sees Billy Mitchell with high collar*

Billy Mitchell was in the Army and is wearing an Army uniform.  The Air Force as we know it was founded as a completely separate service a 11 years after Mitchell died.   To me, any connection they had to the traditions of the Army were severed then.  Obviously my own interpretation of how uniforms are decided.  But I hate uniforms that are made just to look cool.  There is no historical reference to the USAF post 1947 to have a high collar.  That was an infantry thing signifying the leather wraps Marines used to wear around their necks to prevent getting their throats cut, ie. Leather Necks.  I think the Army might have a similar correlation.  Who knows.   The Air Force can do a lot of things with their traditions, a high collar isnt one of them. 

[LGM30GMCC]

Um...I think the original high collars were because....and this may be shocking...that was a style at the time they were originally designed.

Just like the jackets worn at the end of WWII were a style.

When it comes to dress uniforms quite a lot of them just come down to style. This goes back for a very, very long time. If the USAF wants to have some historical ties back to its roots there's nothing wrong with that

[Bloodsky]

From the AF's facebook page:

Gen. Mark A. Welsh III addresses an audience after being sworn in as the 20th Air Force chief of staff during a ceremony at Joint Base Andrews, Md., Aug. 10, 2012. The unique ceremonial uniforms worn by the CSAF and the chief master sergeant of the Air Force during today's transition ceremony are authorized for wear only by these senior leaders when they attend events of a ceremonial nature. They are not intended for wear by any other individuals, groups, or the entire Air Force. (U.S. Air Force photo by Senior Airman Christina Brownlow) (KJT)

[Flying Pig]

Um...I think the original high collars were because....and this may be shocking...that was a style at the time they were originally designed.

Just like the jackets worn at the end of WWII were a style.

When it comes to dress uniforms quite a lot of them just come down to style. This goes back for a very, very long time. If the USAF wants to have some historical ties back to its roots there's nothing wrong with that

So then what you are saying, is that there is only one service in the US that can actually trace the high collar back to origins in battle.  Nuff said.......   Charge on Leathernecks!  I guess the Air Force can play too if they want.  Sound to me like we have a bunch of Generals who realized to late in life that they made a career out of the wrong service!  HAAAAAAA

[LGM30GMCC]

Um...no...

If you want to go back far enough...

Look at colonial military uniforms. They were based on British uniforms. And they had high collars.

Sorry, but the Marines uniforms, you trace 'em back far enough, go to the Brits. Just like every other US service. Go figure.

[NCRblues]

Um...no...

If you want to go back far enough...

Look at colonial military uniforms. They were based on British uniforms. And they had high collars.

Sorry, but the Marines uniforms, you trace 'em back far enough, go to the Brits. Just like every other US service. Go figure.

The English, French,Germans, Prussian (Friedrich Wihelm von Steuben was instrumental in a lot of things) and several other dominant military powers of the time of our founding. 90% of our "traditions" are just stolen goods.

[AngelWings]

The "ceremonial" uniform that the generals were wearing are the same exact thing as the band uniform. Compare to the two and you'll see what I'm talking about.

[Critical AOA]

I agree somewhat, but...

*goes to Google.*
*sees Billy Mitchell with high collar*

Billy Mitchell was in the Army and is wearing an Army uniform.  The Air Force as we know it was founded as a completely separate service a 11 years after Mitchell died.   To me, any connection they had to the traditions of the Army were severed then.  Obviously my own interpretation of how uniforms are decided.  But I hate uniforms that are made just to look cool.  There is no historical reference to the USAF post 1947 to have a high collar.  That was an infantry thing signifying the leather wraps Marines used to wear around their necks to prevent getting their throats cut, ie. Leather Necks.  I think the Army might have a similar correlation.  Who knows.   The Air Force can do a lot of things with their traditions, a high collar isnt one of them.

Yep.  Billy was Army as were many of the early US military aviation heroes and legends that the Air Force likes to claim as their own.  USAF history started in 1947.  Not sure why they try to claim a bunch of Army history. 

[Майор Хаткевич]

I agree somewhat, but...

*goes to Google.*
*sees Billy Mitchell with high collar*

Billy Mitchell was in the Army and is wearing an Army uniform.  The Air Force as we know it was founded as a completely separate service a 11 years after Mitchell died.   To me, any connection they had to the traditions of the Army were severed then.  Obviously my own interpretation of how uniforms are decided.  But I hate uniforms that are made just to look cool.  There is no historical reference to the USAF post 1947 to have a high collar.  That was an infantry thing signifying the leather wraps Marines used to wear around their necks to prevent getting their throats cut, ie. Leather Necks.  I think the Army might have a similar correlation.  Who knows.   The Air Force can do a lot of things with their traditions, a high collar isnt one of them.

Yep.  Billy was Army as were many of the early US military aviation heroes and legends that the Air Force likes to claim as their own.  USAF history started in 1947.  Not sure why they try to claim a bunch of Army history.

Because the Air Force didn't just happen? All of the early Air Force greats started in the Army Air service.

[Private Investigator]

I do like the Ike jackets. 

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Did you even bother to read the post above that stated that this is a Restricted Ceremonial Uniform that is only worn by the Chief of Staff and the Command Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force?

CAP will never, ever wear this uniform.

So what was your rant about?

Of course I read the post.

My point is that very often whenever a variation on a USAF uniform is seen, someone on CT suggests it for CAP.  Not inevitably, but often.  Look at the continuing "ABU's" speculation.

So what was my "rant" about, good sir?  Simply stating an opinion that rather than try to get whatever/any hypothetical new uniform the USAF gets, my opinion would be to simplify things around a uniform that the AF does not wear anymore, which by nature automatically makes it "distinctive."

Do I think it stands a fart's chance in a hurricane?  Of course not.

But it's only an opinion...which is all CT is at the end of the day, a collection of opinions and ideas.

[AngelWings]

Restricted Ceremonial Uniform? I think not...

[SarDragon]

^^^^^

I would still consider that restricted use.

[AngelWings]

^^^^^

I would still consider that restricted use.

Restricted? Definately. Only to 2-3 people (I should have added that in to avoid confusion)? No. It's just like cooks wearing their whites, HG/CG wearing their uniform, etc.

[SarDragon]

The "ceremonial" uniform that the generals were wearing are the same exact thing as the band uniform. Compare to the two and you'll see what I'm talking about.

No, it is NOT exactly the same uniform.

The band uniform was probably the basis for the ceremonial uniform, but the hats are different, and the ceremonial uniform has a belt.

[AngelWings]

The "ceremonial" uniform that the generals were wearing are the same exact thing as the band uniform. Compare to the two and you'll see what I'm talking about.

No, it is NOT exactly the same uniform.

The band uniform was probably the basis for the ceremonial uniform, but the hats are different, and the ceremonial uniform has a belt.

Ok, you got me there. Not the exact same, but basically the same. It's the same tunic and pants, and same placement of insignia. The way the articles and comments I've read made it sound like is that this ceremonial uniform was completely different from any other AF uniform.

[SarDragon]

^^^^^

I would still consider that restricted use.

Restricted? Definately. Only to 2-3 people (I should have added that in to avoid confusion)? No. It's just like cooks wearing their whites, HG/CG wearing their uniform, etc.

If Airman Schmuckatelli in 13 FS, or 32 CBCS, as examples, doesn't have that uniform as a day-to-day option, then it's a restricted use uniform. the cook and HG uniforms do also fit into that category.

[AngelWings]

^^^^^

I would still consider that restricted use.

Restricted? Definately. Only to 2-3 people (I should have added that in to avoid confusion)? No. It's just like cooks wearing their whites, HG/CG wearing their uniform, etc.

If Airman Schmuckatelli in 13 FS, or 32 CBCS, as examples, doesn't have that uniform as a day-to-day option, then it's a restricted use uniform. the cook and HG uniforms do also fit into that category.

Exactly.

[rustyjeeper]

Does it really matter? Let's get back on topic.............
So when are we getting ABU's

[jks19714]

Restricted Ceremonial Uniform? I think not...

It looks like someone poured a cup of ice into his shorts! 

[BuckeyeDEJ]

As was said on Facebook's Air Force feed, this was a test of a new ceremonial uniform to be used only by the CSAF and CMSAF. A bulletin was posted within Air Force circles saying as much. It was widely panned on Facebook. I wouldn't expect to see it again real soon, anyway, considering the uniform's use.

The departing CSAF replaced a CSAF who was considering uniform changes at a time when there was carelessness in our nuclear weapons operations. The criticism was that the previous CSAF's eyes were off the ball. Then, the irony of a new uniform on Gen Schwartz's last day as CSAF. Just found it interesting.

Marines and sailors will say the Air Force doesn't do choker collars very well.

[ColonelJack]

Restricted Ceremonial Uniform? I think not...

It looks like someone poured a cup of ice into his shorts! 

Nah ... he's trying to get the Band to do "the wave."

Jack

[jimmydeanno]

Restricted Ceremonial Uniform? I think not...

It looks like someone poured a cup of ice into his shorts! 

Nah ... he's trying to get the Band to do "the wave."

Jack

Maybe they're on the set of The Price is Right

[PHall]

Restricted Ceremonial Uniform? I think not...

It looks like someone poured a cup of ice into his shorts! 

Nah ... he's trying to get the Band to do "the wave."

Jack

Maybe they're on the set of The Price is Right

Uh, how about he's the conductor of the band and he's "conducting"...

[jimmydeanno]

Restricted Ceremonial Uniform? I think not...

It looks like someone poured a cup of ice into his shorts! 

Nah ... he's trying to get the Band to do "the wave."

Jack

Maybe they're on the set of The Price is Right

Uh, how about he's the conductor of the band and he's "conducting"...

That's not nearly an interesting enough conspiracy theory.

[RogueLeader]

Restricted Ceremonial Uniform? I think not...

It looks like someone poured a cup of ice into his shorts! 

Nah ... he's trying to get the Band to do "the wave."

Jack

Maybe they're on the set of The Price is Right

Uh, how about he's the conductor of the band and he's "conducting"...

That's not nearly an interesting enough conspiracy theory.

He's a drummer and suddenly lost his cymbals in mid strike.

[spacecommand]

Ah, so many meme's can be created from that photo...

[AngelWings]

Ah, so many meme's can be created from that photo...

I think you have a great idea!!!

[ColonelJack]

Restricted Ceremonial Uniform? I think not...

It looks like someone poured a cup of ice into his shorts! 

Nah ... he's trying to get the Band to do "the wave."

Jack

Maybe they're on the set of The Price is Right

Uh, how about he's the conductor of the band and he's "conducting"...

Well, of course he is...but that's not nearly as funny.

Jack

[Garibaldi]

Restricted Ceremonial Uniform? I think not...

It looks like someone poured a cup of ice into his shorts! 

Nah ... he's trying to get the Band to do "the wave."

Jack

Maybe they're on the set of The Price is Right

Uh, how about he's the conductor of the band and he's "conducting"...

Well, of course he is...but that's not nearly as funny.

Jack

"OK...1...2...3...theeeeeee wheels on the bus go round and round..."

[Critical AOA]

"Quick, let's run over there and beat it."

"Are we in the correct uniform to beat one?"

"Doesn't matter.  No one really cares anyway.  Besides we are wearing our Ranger berets so we are badass."

"What uniform are those other guys wearing?"

"Oh, that is the special ceremonial uniform."

"Cool.  Can I wear it?"

"No.  It is 'special'."

"Special how"

"Special, as in dead horse ceremonial beating special".

"Who can wear it?"

"Only those on CAP Talk who have at least 100 proven instances of beating a dead horse."

"Oh, you mean like _________"*     <<<<< Name withheld to protect the guilty... They have rights too, you know!

[cap235629]

"Quick, let's run over there and beat it."

"Are we in the correct uniform to beat one?"

"Doesn't matter.  No one really cares anyway.  Besides we are wearing our Ranger berets so we are badass."

"What uniform are those other guys wearing?"

"Oh, that is the special ceremonial uniform."

"Cool.  Can I wear it?"

"No.  It is 'special'."

"Special how"

"Special, as in dead horse ceremonial beating special".

"Who can wear it?"

"Only those on CAP Talk who have at least 100 proven instances of beating a dead horse."

"Oh, you mean like _________"*     <<<<< Name withheld to protect the guilty... They have rights too, you know!

But I did notice they are wearing the ever present reflective belt!

[SarDragon]

Nah, blue is the worst possible color (except of course black) to use for reflective apparel. 

[abdsp51]

At least they are in step....

[caphornbuckle]

I remember when we went to the current new-style jacket.  I believe their excuse at the time was that the old-style jacket looked "too Army".  Thus began the era of looking like airline pilots (before they put the officer grade insignia back on the shoulder!).

[ColonelJack]

I remember when we went to the current new-style jacket.  I believe their excuse at the time was that the old-style jacket looked "too Army".  Thus began the era of looking like airline pilots (before they put the officer grade insignia back on the shoulder!).

My Group CC at the time was also an AF Reserve lieutenant colonel, and when the McPeak jacket first came out he said that he was retiring.  His quote:  "If I wanted to look like I worked for Delta Air Lines, I'd go to work for Delta Air Lines."  He added a few things that I can't mention here, and - as far as I know - did indeed retire.

Jack

[Walkman]

"Quick, let's run over there and beat it."

"Are we in the correct uniform to beat one?"

"Doesn't matter.  No one really cares anyway.  Besides we are wearing our Ranger berets so we are badass."

"What uniform are those other guys wearing?"

"Oh, that is the special ceremonial uniform."

"Cool.  Can I wear it?"

"No.  It is 'special'."

"Special how"

"Special, as in dead horse ceremonial beating special".

"Who can wear it?"

"Only those on CAP Talk who have at least 100 proven instances of beating a dead horse."

"Oh, you mean like _________"*     <<<<< Name withheld to protect the guilty... They have rights too, you know!

:clap: Well played!

[68w20]

"Quick, let's run over there and beat it."

"Are we in the correct uniform to beat one?"

"Doesn't matter.  No one really cares anyway.  Besides we are wearing our Ranger berets so we are badass."

"What uniform are those other guys wearing?"

"Oh, that is the special ceremonial uniform."

"Cool.  Can I wear it?"

"No.  It is 'special'."

"Special how"

"Special, as in dead horse ceremonial beating special".

"Who can wear it?"

"Only those on CAP Talk who have at least 100 proven instances of beating a dead horse."

"Oh, you mean like _________"*     <<<<< Name withheld to protect the guilty... They have rights too, you know!

But I did notice they are wearing the ever present reflective belt!

That'd be a Stable Belt, indicating the wearer's branch/regiment/etc.  It's most commonly used in the uniforms of UK/Commonwealth countries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stable_belt

[PHall]

"Quick, let's run over there and beat it."

"Are we in the correct uniform to beat one?"

"Doesn't matter.  No one really cares anyway.  Besides we are wearing our Ranger berets so we are badass."

"What uniform are those other guys wearing?"

"Oh, that is the special ceremonial uniform."

"Cool.  Can I wear it?"

"No.  It is 'special'."

"Special how"

"Special, as in dead horse ceremonial beating special".

"Who can wear it?"

"Only those on CAP Talk who have at least 100 proven instances of beating a dead horse."

"Oh, you mean like _________"*     <<<<< Name withheld to protect the guilty... They have rights too, you know!

:clap: Well played!

You guys think a picture of an injured animal is funny?  I hope you treat your pets better.

[RogueLeader]

No, but the commentary is spot in for Captalk.

[SarDragon]

No, but the commentary is spot in on for Captalk.

FTFY! 

[RogueLeader]

No, but the commentary is spot in on for Captalk.

FTFY! 

Darn touch screen.  But hey, I know somebody read my post.

[MSG Mac]

If it was a French Regiment, they would have the regimental cooks out there with cleavers.