Ribbons in Movies Part 2

Started by Spaceman3750, December 24, 2011, 09:22:13 AM

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Spaceman3750

It was previously pointed out that in Burn Notice: The Fall of Sam Axe Cmdr. Axe is wearing a Lindbergh ribbon. I noticed tonight that Cmdr. Axe is also a proud Yeager recipient ::).


GroundHawg

Also note the Army/USMC style spacing between ribbons on the Naval uniform, and what looks to be a Dept of the Navy pin on the pocket. Dont these companies hire anyone with any military experience ever?

Chief2009

Not to mention the fact that Sam's supposed to be a SEAL, but is wearing SWO insignia, not a Trident.
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ol'fido

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Flying Pig

Interesting.  None of his ribbons are military ribbons. I dont know anything about the show.  Low budget Im assuming?  I live the ironing job....very squared away... :o

PHall

Quote from: Chief2009 on December 24, 2011, 03:00:08 PM
Not to mention the fact that Sam's supposed to be a SEAL, but is wearing SWO insignia, not a Trident.

Actually I think it's a GOOD THING that he's not wearing the Trident.

The CyBorg is destroyed

#6
JAG, although it was one of my favourite shows (mostly to look at Catherine Bell), and was usually accurate with fruit salad, made a mistake with Lieutenant Commander Mic Brumby, the Royal Australian Navy exchange officer (played by the late Trevor Goddard):

1. In the first season he was on, he did not wear the "AUSTRALIA" shoulder flashes, making him indistinguishable from a British RN officer.

2. An Aussie with this much chest candy (including the Australian Conspicuous Service Cross) would likely be MUCH higher up the food chain than two-and-a-half rings!



But at least his ribbons appeared to all be Australian...no spurious CAP chest candy. :P

EDIT: to fix image of Mr Goddard
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Spaceman3750

Quote from: Flying Pig on December 24, 2011, 04:23:40 PM
Interesting.  None of his ribbons are military ribbons. I dont know anything about the show.  Low budget Im assuming?  I live the ironing job....very squared away... :o

It's a USA network TV show with a TV movie. I'm assuming it's not low budget, though some of the cinematography makes me think otherwise.

I'm honestly thinking they called Vanguard and said "Send us one of everything".

The two investigating officers at Sam's inquiry are also wearing Lindbergh ribbons.

Extremepredjudice

If you watch tv and movies for the accuracy, you might as well get rid of your TV.

They aren't accurate. Move on.  ::)
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Cliff_Chambliss

Not ribbons, but watch the movie Midway.  Takeoff in an SBD Dauntless, In flight Douglas Devastators, an attack F4U Corsair, approach to land back to the SBD Dauntless, and crash on the fantail F9f Panther all on 1 flight.
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CAVALRY:  If it were easy it would be called infantry.

ColonelJack

You know why that is, don't you?

On average, 95 to 98 percent of the people viewing won't notice.  They'll see a uniform with ribbons above the left pocket; they won't care what the ribbons are supposed to mean.  They'll see a plane take off, fly, attack, approach and land, and they won't care that it isn't the same plane.  If the story line establishes the actor playing the pilot is flying whatever plane is shown, all but 2 to 5 percent of the audience will buy it.

Watch any episode of JAG (which normally does a good job on uniform items) in which Harm is flying a jet.  Dollars to doughnuts it won't be the same jet in every shot; either the jet itself will be different or at the very least the numbering and nomenclature on the jet will be different.

We're not supposed to notice that stuff.

Of course, the few of us who do notice that stuff make life pure agony for the boys in continuity - they're supposed to catch stuff like that.

Jack
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spacecommand

Found a website about the blue ray version with some screen caps I think:

Warning large high resolution:

http://www.blu-raydefinition.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/BDDefinition2011FallofSamAxe-2.WM_.jpg

http://www.blu-raydefinition.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/BDDefinition2011FallofSamAxe-1.WM_.jpg

As mentioned the general public doesn't know.  It used to irk me in older WW2 movies to see Sherman tanks dressed up as Panzers, or later model P-51s seen in early 1943, but in modern CGI days you don't see that too often anymore. 

Walkman

I don't remember where I got this, so take it with a grain of salt, but I heard at one point that wardrobe purposefully created small uniform errors. Something to do with being in the spirit as well as the letter of the law. I know there is a clause in the law that allows actors to wear a uniform for a production.

Like i said, I could be wrong...

Hawk200

Quote from: Walkman on December 25, 2011, 10:33:23 PM
I don't remember where I got this, so take it with a grain of salt, but I heard at one point that wardrobe purposefully created small uniform errors. Something to do with being in the spirit as well as the letter of the law. I know there is a clause in the law that allows actors to wear a uniform for a production.

Like i said, I could be wrong...
As far as I recall, you're right. There used to be a stipulation that a whole and completely accurate uniform worn by an individual representing a service but was not actually a service member was a violation. If the uniform was not completely accurate though, then technically the appropriate rules did not apply.

The changes that actually allowed the wear of an accurate uniform were only made in the last few years. From what I understand, most of the studios keep it inaccurate out of standing practice than for any legal issues.

Stargate (the TV series) got a little more accurate in the later seasons because they actually had Air Force advisors. I think they maintained the different "uniform" to give it that secret squirrel feeling. It didn't really impede the story, so it wasn't an issue.

The CyBorg is destroyed

That being the case, all one would really have to do is have incorrect buttons on a uniform to avoid a violation.

One of my favourite Star Trek episodes, "Tomorrow Is Yesterday," is full of Air Force uniforms, not to mention an orange flight suit with plastic encased rank insignia.

Spot the errors, if any:







This might be more of a nitpick than an actual error, but notice that the Security Police Lt Col and NCO are wearing SAC shields.

Given that the opening sequence shows F-104's being scrambled, and that Captain William Christopher is piloting one, shouldn't it be an ADC base?

Also, isn't this a strange angle to wear a beret?



And, given the era, wouldn't Ike jackets still be seen?

That said, I consider this to be the Air Force's uniform heyday.
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Spaceman3750

Seems like a funny way to wear a sidearm...


SarDragon

I don't recall the alleged year in "the past", but the IKE Jacket was gone from the AF by the time that the series originated. It was gone from CAP, too, IIRC. I never bothered getting one WIWAC, because it had a phase-out date. It was in th3 1961 39-1, and gone from the subsequent , 1968, version.
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PHall

And the orange flight suit on the F-104 pilot with the plastic encased rank is accurate, for ADC in 1966.

Heck, when I went through aircrew survival school (SV-80) at Fairchild in 1978 we had a couple Active Duty F-106 drivers who only had orange flight suits.
Which made things kinda interesting during the evasion part of the course... ::)

lordmonar

Quote from: Hawk200 on December 26, 2011, 04:40:32 AM
Quote from: Walkman on December 25, 2011, 10:33:23 PM
I don't remember where I got this, so take it with a grain of salt, but I heard at one point that wardrobe purposefully created small uniform errors. Something to do with being in the spirit as well as the letter of the law. I know there is a clause in the law that allows actors to wear a uniform for a production.

Like i said, I could be wrong...
As far as I recall, you're right. There used to be a stipulation that a whole and completely accurate uniform worn by an individual representing a service but was not actually a service member was a violation. If the uniform was not completely accurate though, then technically the appropriate rules did not apply.

The changes that actually allowed the wear of an accurate uniform were only made in the last few years. From what I understand, most of the studios keep it inaccurate out of standing practice than for any legal issues.

Stargate (the TV series) got a little more accurate in the later seasons because they actually had Air Force advisors. I think they maintained the different "uniform" to give it that secret squirrel feeling. It didn't really impede the story, so it wasn't an issue.
The only problem with that theory....is that the law has a specific exemption for theatrical situations AND the law does not recognise the "just one thing out of place" loop hole in the case of someone who really was wearing the uniform to defraud or to gain access to the base.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Darkside1

QuoteThis might be more of a nitpick than an actual error, but notice that the Security Police Lt Col and NCO are wearing SAC shields.

They're SAC Elite Guard. They defended SAC HQ.

http://www.saceliteguard.com/

jimmydeanno

So, what you're saying is that they're the SAC version of these guys:

If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law. - Winston Churchill

spacecommand

Theatre/movie/etc productions have always been exempt to my knowledge, if they were not, I'm curious of what "enforcement" measures would be in place?  FCC fines?  No technical advisers from the military etc.  Where is this written on paper?  I'm speaking about movie/theatre/tv productions of course.

A more likely theory of incorrect uniforms as mentioned would be low production values, most of the general people watching wouldn't even know.  Shows and movies with a more serious military theme and advisers tend to get things better.  Stargate SG1 really messed things up in the early seasons, but as mentioned later in the later seasons it had a lot of Air Force cooperation and assistance on the show. 

Actually I notice something similar watching movies/tv shows about the NYPD.  Some shows, movies get the badges, patches right on, but other movies and TV shows have used slightly different looking/worded patches (eg the "real" NYPD patch says "Police Department, City of New York" in the TV show Blue Bloods the patch says "Police Department, New York", in the Spiderman movies it says "NYPD Police Department", the TV Show 24 did the same thing with episodes in NYC).  This is mainly because the city/department holds copyright to those designs.   Shows like Law & Order get it right, but shooting in the city brought in lots of revenue for the city as well.

Though it does irk us nitpickers., just like for military things, police uniforms on screen etc, most of the general public would not recognize any differences at all to matter.  The storyline is what carries it.

PHall

Quote from: jimmydeanno on December 26, 2011, 08:48:22 PM
So, what you're saying is that they're the SAC version of these guys:



If those guys were guarding the SAC Underground Command Post at Offutt AFB. >:D

Eclipse

Quote from: Hawk200 on December 26, 2011, 04:40:32 AMStargate (the TV series) got a little more accurate in the later seasons because they actually had Air Force advisors. I think they maintained the different "uniform" to give it that secret squirrel feeling. It didn't really impede the story, so it wasn't an issue.

Stargate's service dress have always been the same as the active service of the period, though they have had accuracy issues, especially in the first couple of seasons. 

I know there was at least one episode where General Hammond's badges flip-flopped up and down depending on the camera angle, and
it looks like General O'Neill could use some help as well.


"That Others May Zoom"

Eclipse

Quote from: CyBorg on December 26, 2011, 06:00:58 AM




Was cross-draw standard for the USAF of the period?

Also, wouldn't anyone out of basic have a least a few ribbons to display?  Or were they not worn by USAF police?

"That Others May Zoom"

Extremepredjudice

Quote from: PHall on December 26, 2011, 09:54:17 PM
Quote from: jimmydeanno on December 26, 2011, 08:48:22 PM
So, what you're saying is that they're the SAC version of these guys:



If those guys were guarding the SAC Underground Command Post at Offutt AFB. >:D
You mean Imperial Shadow Guards? They are force sensitive assassins that first made their appearance in the New Sith Wars. After which the rule of two was enforced, until Darth Sideous brought force sensitive "Dark Jedi" to work for him.

I would suspect that the Shadow Guards would be awesome at it. They are able to suppress their force presence, making themselves invisible to even the most powerful Jedi. Their force pikes (The tip of the Force Pike was a vibro-edged head with a stun module that could knock a full-grown Wookiee unconscious using a concentrated nerve impulse similar to that featured in the stun setting of a blaster rifle. ) might hinder them, though...

/endnerdrant  8)
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The CyBorg is destroyed

Quote from: PHall on December 26, 2011, 03:50:09 PM
And the orange flight suit on the F-104 pilot with the plastic encased rank is accurate, for ADC in 1966.

Heck, when I went through aircrew survival school (SV-80) at Fairchild in 1978 we had a couple Active Duty F-106 drivers who only had orange flight suits.
Which made things kinda interesting during the evasion part of the course... ::)

I was born in 1966, so of course I don't remember. :P  I think some ADC/ADTAC-gained ANG F-106 drivers wore orange bags even later.

The episode in question was broadcast on 26 January 1967, by which time most F-104's in the USAF had been passed on to the ANG, except for some which did brief service in Vietnam (wonderful plane, did better with our allies than with us for whatever reason).  It probably would have been more accurate for Captain Christopher to have been flying a "Six."

I have to admit that this is the first time I've heard of the SAC Elite Guard...nice video, though.

I agree with Eclipse about the NCO...wouldn't he have at least the NDSM, and more besides by the time he reached SSgt?

Also, were revolvers issue items then instead of the good old .45?
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ol'fido

The SAC Elite Guard's distinctive uniform included a bone-gripped .38 Special revolver(at the insistence of Gen. Lemay) in a cross-draw holster. They were also the first Air Police unit authorized the blue beret. The Ike Jacket was part of the specified distinctive uniform so it may have lasted longer with the SACEG than it did with the reg USAF. It's probably also thanks to them that we wore the long sleeved dark blue shirt into the 1980's.
Lt. Col. Randy L. Mitchell
Historian, Group 1, IL-006

The CyBorg is destroyed

I did a little more research.

It turns out that the actor who played Captain John Christopher, Roger Perry, once served as an Intelligence Officer in the USAF during the Cold War...not to mention being married to JoAnne Worley for 25 years.

So maybe Roger Perry served as his own technical advisor for the episode.
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indygreg

Quote from: CyBorg on December 24, 2011, 06:41:55 PM
JAG, although it was one of my favourite shows (mostly to look at Catherine Bell)


Truer words were never spoken.  I'd charge a machine gun nest with her any day!

Hawk200

Quote from: Eclipse on December 26, 2011, 10:02:54 PM
Quote from: Hawk200 on December 26, 2011, 04:40:32 AMStargate (the TV series) got a little more accurate in the later seasons because they actually had Air Force advisors. I think they maintained the different "uniform" to give it that secret squirrel feeling. It didn't really impede the story, so it wasn't an issue.

Stargate's service dress have always been the same as the active service of the period, though they have had accuracy issues, especially in the first couple of seasons. 

I know there was at least one episode where General Hammond's badges flip-flopped up and down depending on the camera angle, and
it looks like General O'Neill could use some help as well.


I wasn't talking about the blues, sorry should have clarified. I was referencing the green BDU like uniform (as well as the blue version of the same thing) with the epaulets on it that had the patches on the upper arm. That was a common thing they did throughout the series. Camo with just upper arm patches was common, too.

O'Neill's uniform is fairly close. The stars are a little wonky, and the badges should probably be reversed. Generally, in the Air Force, the wider the badge, it seems the higher it goes (Chaplain's badge being the most notable exception I can think of.) Spings seem to have their own rules within Space Command.

The first three seasons were done by Showtime, and they really screwed things up. It got better when SciFi picked up the show, and apparently they actively sought Air Force advisement to present a more realistic portrayal of the Air Force.

LGM30GMCC

The Parachutist badge falls into bit of an odd realm. However, it is worn above other specialty badges but below Spings or Wings.

Spings and Aeronautical badges mixed together also gets weird because they have equal precedence. (That's one reason Spings were invented.) The highest of those badges (Wings, Spings, or Cyberwings) is what your current duty is.

It used to be if you worked on the ALCS, you would earn officer aircrew wings, and would have spings. But while you were serving on the ALCS itself you were in a Space/Missile Billet that was also an Officer Aircrew Billet. Therefore, placing either on top was technically correct.

So while it was personal preference, some folks would wear the Officer Air Crew wings on top, with the Spings below while serving on the ALCS, and then swap them after they were no longer serving on the ALCS. Some of this may have also been because on BDUs/ABUs you likely already had your Spings sewn on, so it would be easier to just get the wings above them.

The ALCS job is no longer a 'space billet' so now the correct way would be the Air Crew wings on top, Spings below while on the ALCS, and once you're off the ALCS, if you're in a missile job, either way would be correct once again. (Since neither would represent your current assignment. The missile badge would.)

In 4-5 years we'll start seeing some ALCS crew members who have never earned their Spings and will just have Officer Aircrew Wings and their missile badge.

...

In short:
It kinda depends. Somehow I doubt 'General O'Neal' is on active jump duty as an O-8. And he likely is in a 'space slot' and should be wearing his spings on top.

That being said...there are quite a few rules that Generals can...amend...as they see fit. Especially if they are part of some super-secret-squirrel organization.

lordmonar

At one time the parachutists badge was an aeronauthical badge and was manditory.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

titanII

Quote from: lordmonar on December 28, 2011, 01:30:06 AM
At one time the parachutists badge was an aeronauthical badge and was manditory.
Mandatory for whom? Pilots?
No longer active on CAP talk

Darkside1

Mandatory for all whom earned it. Like the pilot badge, all aeronautical badges will be worn.

As far as I know, the parachutist badge still is considered aeronautical.  At least my ROTC instructors think it is.

CadetMurphy

Quote from: Spaceman3750 on December 24, 2011, 09:22:13 AM
It was previously pointed out that in Burn Notice: The Fall of Sam Axe Cmdr. Axe is wearing a Lindbergh ribbon. I noticed tonight that Cmdr. Axe is also a proud Yeager recipient ::).


he is also wereing the army JROTC color guard ribbon and the fitness ribbon

Hawk200

Quote from: Darkside1 on December 28, 2011, 02:07:06 AM
Mandatory for all whom earned it. Like the pilot badge, all aeronautical badges will be worn.

As far as I know, the parachutist badge still is considered aeronautical.  At least my ROTC instructors think it is.
It is considered aeronautical, it's just not mandatory anymore. That little bit changed in McPeak's days of uniform alteration.

lordmonar

Quote from: Hawk200 on December 28, 2011, 04:21:01 AM
Quote from: Darkside1 on December 28, 2011, 02:07:06 AM
Mandatory for all whom earned it. Like the pilot badge, all aeronautical badges will be worn.

As far as I know, the parachutist badge still is considered aeronautical.  At least my ROTC instructors think it is.
It is considered aeronautical, it's just not mandatory anymore. That little bit changed in McPeak's days of uniform alteration.
You not allowed to say his name.....if you must refer to him....you can always call him Meril or Tony!   >:D
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

SarDragon

Only his friends call him Tony, so you should use Merrill.   >:D
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ProdigalJim

Quote from: SarDragon on December 28, 2011, 09:40:56 AM
Only his friends call him Tony, so you should use Merrill.   >:D

Actually, when we covered him at the Pentagon, he used to ask us reporters to call him Tony. Those with non-military backgrounds were fine with it...the rest of us had a very, very hard time breaking the habit: "Yes, General. I have a question, General. No, General." And so on.

Then there was the silly twit from one of the TV networks who kept calling him Mr. McPeak...
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Hawk200

Quote from: lordmonar on December 28, 2011, 08:59:45 AMYou not allowed to say his name.....if you must refer to him....you can always call him Meril or Tony!   >:D
Could have called him what I usually do, but there is a profanity filter.

lordmonar

Quote from: Hawk200 on December 28, 2011, 04:11:20 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on December 28, 2011, 08:59:45 AMYou not allowed to say his name.....if you must refer to him....you can always call him Meril or Tony!   >:D
Could have called him what I usually do, but there is a profanity filter.
8) 8) 8) 8)
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

SarDragon

Jim, you apparently missed my sarcasm.  ;)

But. that's OK. It happens a lot.  8)

As an aside, what do these folks have in common?
Dick Rutan
Ron Fogleman
Tony McPeak

CoSAF doesn't work. It's something else.
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abdsp51

Shield was standard for SP's at the time the beret and the bone .38s were a SAC elite guard measure done by LeMay.  And any other badges such as jump or AFSC badges would be placed above any earned wings. 

lordmonar

Quote from: SarDragon on December 28, 2011, 10:36:01 PM
Jim, you apparently missed my sarcasm.  ;)

But. that's OK. It happens a lot.  8)

As an aside, what do these folks have in common?
Dick Rutan
Ron Fogleman
Tony McPeak

CoSAF doesn't work. It's something else.
All fighter pilots?
All members of the USAF?
All flew the F-100?

On a side note....my Dad was an Aviation Cadet with Dick Rutan...true story!
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

SarDragon

Quote from: lordmonar on December 28, 2011, 11:07:09 PM
Quote from: SarDragon on December 28, 2011, 10:36:01 PM
Jim, you apparently missed my sarcasm.  ;)

But. that's OK. It happens a lot.  8)

As an aside, what do these folks have in common?
Dick Rutan
Ron Fogleman
Tony McPeak

CoSAF doesn't work. It's something else.
All fighter pilots?
All members of the USAF?
All flew the F-100?

On a side note....my Dad was an Aviation Cadet with Dick Rutan...true story!

Close. Where did they all fly F-100s, at different times?
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50 Year Member
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The CyBorg is destroyed

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lordmonar

What is Phu Cat AB in Vietnam?

Alec, I'll take usless information for $1000.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

SarDragon

Dave Bowles
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50 Year Member
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The CyBorg is destroyed

Quote from: lordmonar on December 28, 2011, 11:12:01 PM
Alec, I'll take usless information for $1000.

My head is crammed so full of useless trivia random information that an old friend of mine once said I needed my own Jeopardy! category:

Alex, I'll have THINGS ONLY I KNOW for the Daily Double...
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lordmonar

PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP