Personnel

[afgeo4]

We've been talking about people's ratings and where they're best suited...

I'd like to extend that topic and ask:

Are personnel people in your units just a sidenote to administration or are they actively seeking the best way to slot people and make sure the unit runs efficiently?

I find that too often it is a position in name only. That it is just another rating that's assigned to the admin officer.

[Major_Chuck]

We made the proactive decision to rotate people through different 'jobs' so that no one person gets burned out on the position and it provides a good vetting process at the same time.  We had one personnel officer who thought she was up to the task but after a few months discovered that she hated the job and thought she was trapped into it.  By rotating we've found her a nitch she likes and kept her interested in the program. 

Along those same lines as we've found people interested in different paths we've urged them to pursue the specialty and serve as an assistant or the primary.

[DNall]

I think it's almost always been the same person in every unit I've been to. I dont' think I've ever seen one try to inspect uniforms or help the CC slot people to jobs or tasks. It's a thankless combined job & the tracks might well be better mereged as HR.

[Hawk200]

For the eight and a half years I've done CAP, I've been a Personnel officer. Never done admin, except maybe to help out an admin person on rare occasion. Other than that, I've never been slotted to admin, and I don't really see how they would be the same.

Now, I've seen Personnel and Professional Development thrown together, and have held both tracks concurrently on several occasions. There is a lot of interface between ProDev and Pers., so it is kind of natural to use them together. To fill out promotion paperwork, you have to make sure people have had SLS, or CLC, etc. It's a waste of time to fill out things if you don't verify training.

And on occasions, I do uniform inspections. Most people hate me after the inspection, but I can't do the job half@-- and really live with myself. And I don't really point out anything that wouldn't be expected of a military member in the same uniform.

[RiverAux]

Personnel and Admin have always been combined in my home unit.  

[afgeo4]

For the eight and a half years I've done CAP, I've been a Personnel officer. Never done admin, except maybe to help out an admin person on rare occasion. Other than that, I've never been slotted to admin, and I don't really see how they would be the same.

Now, I've seen Personnel and Professional Development thrown together, and have held both tracks concurrently on several occasions. There is a lot of interface between ProDev and Pers., so it is kind of natural to use them together. To fill out promotion paperwork, you have to make sure people have had SLS, or CLC, etc. It's a waste of time to fill out things if you don't verify training.

And on occasions, I do uniform inspections. Most people hate me after the inspection, but I can't do the job half@-- and really live with myself. And I don't really point out anything that wouldn't be expected of a military member in the same uniform.

Interesting observation.  Do you think that incorporation of Personnel into PD would make sense?

[Hawk200]

Interesting observation.  Do you think that incorporation of Personnel into PD would make sense?

Combination of Personnel and PD would make a great deal of sense to me. I do both items anyway when dealing with people, it wouldn't change anything for me really. For others that have been doing admin and personnel, it would probably come as a shock.

Personnel, if done as a whole, is a lot more time intensive. The PD duties on the side are much less intensive. Or it may seem that way because I've done both together so long that I don't even know there the line is that ends one, and begins the other. And a lot of the things that people consider admin are really personnel anyway.

DNall pointed out something. As the PD officer, I have helped people select a track to work with, and then told them what schools they needed to get promoted. I lay all that out when they select a specialty track. My commander loves it, he doesn't have to hand hold anyone.

[afgeo4]

Well that's sort of what I'm getting at. I see a lot of inefficiencies in the way our units work and all the burden usually falls on the commander. I'm wondering how we can more successfully distribute the workload in a squadron/group without reinventing the wheel. Perhaps how to clearly redefine positions and tracks. In my opinion, PD has two faces... one is Personnel and the other is Management. In personnel you facilitate proper accountancy, training and ensure all the "i"s are dotted and "t"s are crossed when it comes to the members' careers. In management you often run the senior side of the composite squadron as DCS or you're a deputy commander in a senior squadron and there you're responsible for creation and implementation of everything that has to do with senior members and that includes accountancy, training, and all the other stuff. I just think it makes sense to roll personnel into PD and intensively promote the training of future PD officers.

[ZigZag911]

I've done Pers/Prof Dev together myself, it is kind of practical....but then so is Pers/Admin

During my years as group commander, every officer I had in those billets (i think there were 3 over the years) wanted to link them.

Personally one reason I had taken PD with personnel was that I wanted no part whatsoever of admin, too picky (like logistics!0...needs to be done, I don't have the patience for either, and admit it!

Having said all that, actually it was my deputy that made most staff assignment decisions with me....always in consultation ith the officers concerned....there's no point in giving a job that some one simply won't do!

[Hawk200]

Personally one reason I had taken PD with personnel was that I wanted no part whatsoever of admin, too picky (like logistics!0...needs to be done, I don't have the patience for either, and admit it!

Agreed. I've read the Admin pamphlet, and I really don't care to do what it suggests. For the most part, people can't understand Personnel, unless they've done it right. Just having the Specialty Track doesn't make you a good personnel officer.

[afgeo4]

ok... what does?

[Hawk200]

one is Personnel and the other is Management. In personnel you facilitate proper accountancy, training and ensure all the "i"s are dotted and "t"s are crossed when it comes to the members' careers....

Some differences. On the personnel viewpoint, you're pretty much right.

In management you often run the senior side of the composite squadron as DCS or you're a deputy commander in a senior squadron and there you're responsible for creation and implementation of everything that has to do with senior members and that includes accountancy, training, and all the other stuff. I just think it makes sense to roll personnel into PD and intensively promote the training of future PD officers.

Pro Dev officers do not run the senior side. I think you're equating a PD officer to a DCS. They're not the same. The PD side is making sure they get training (such as SLS, CLC, RSC, etc.), and make sure it gets documented. It differs from management.

I'm not sure what you mean by "accountancy" though. And I really not sure what you are addressing as far as "all the other stuff".

[Hawk200]

ok... what does?

Doing the job. The pamphlet (CAPP 200) is a good start.

I've met so many people that were personnel, asked them how they file the form 45, and gotten a blank stare. It may not be a personnel function, but it is supposed to be maintained in the individual's personnel folder. If they don't know what the form is, they can't be any good at the job. CAPR 39-2 has a whole section devoted to personnel records.

[RiverAux]

I can see a lot of sense in combining Administration and Personnel. 

I'm not so sure about Professional Development.  The option that was receiving a lot of attention here not long ago was designating specialists in each senior member track who would be responsible for providing guidance, training, record keeping, and oversight to everybody in that track in their Group or Wing in that specialty.  This would result in elimination of the Professional Development officer at the squadron level and make it more of a manager of subject matter specialists at the group or Wing levels.  If we didn't go to that sort of structure, I would support combining Prof. Development with Admin and Personnel.

[SarDragon]

In my last unit, I was DA and DP until I recruited my sweetie, and she took over DA. When we transferred to our current, she took over DP, and I do DA.

We help each other out. I do new member apps because I also do the fingerprints, so all she sees it the local copy.

We also share PD duties because we don't currently have anyone else experienced enough in CAP to do it, although we're working hard on that.

As for combining any of them, I think it's better not to do so formally, because there are units out there that need three seperate people doing the jobs. They are also different enough that someone with a DA skill set might not do well in DP or PD.

YMMV.

[RiverAux]

The vast majority of units do not need 3 separate people doing those jobs.  Sure, larger units may, but that is why you can have assistants. 

[ZigZag911]

d on that.

As for combining any of them, I think it's better not to do so formally, because there are units out there that need three seperate people doing the jobs. They are also different enough that someone with a DA skill set might not do well in DP or PD.

I think al suggestions about combinations are aimed at local unit/localCC/local officer options, not an external mandate!

[SarDragon]

And I agree with that concept. If you have a unit small enough and a member industrious enough, there's no reason at all not to have all three jobs done by one person. OTOH, formally combining them into just one specialty puts a greater training burden on members training in the combined specialty because of its new complexity. Let's keep it at three different specialties, and staff the units as circumstances permit.

[Hawk200]

I can see a lot of sense in combining Administration and Personnel. 

There isn't really a lot of practicality in combining Pers and Admin. Now, Pers and ProDev both deal directly with the contents of a senior members personnel folder. From what I've read in the Admin pamphlet, they don't have anything to do with personnel folders. Just combine the two jobs that have the common denominator.

I do not like the idea of relegating ProDev to the wing at all. It's bad enough trying to get wing assistance on some things, and probably impossible for the units that are more than an hour away. I think this would hamstring any development at all for unit members. Not that all wings have a don't care policy for outer boundary units, but some do.

[SAR-EMT1]

Ive got a Senior Rating in Personnel, Tech in CP, and Admin.
I serve my unit as the Personnel Officer, Personal Development Officer and TSO. I also help out with cadets on occasion. I don't have much use for the Admin certification as that is one thing my Commander excels at.
Ive been doing Personnel duties ever since I was still a cadet. I see it an PD as very closely related. Having done admin work, I avoid THAT can of worms like the plague.
Combining PD  and Development Officially would be a smart move. Admin, in and of itself is best left to the Commander or the DCC or DCS in my personal experience.