Units with no proximate "USAF Culture" Present

[Major Carrales]

We have been talking professional development and image and many people have brought up experiences at USAF installations.  I am well aware of many units that have close ties to our USAF installations and that are situated in areas steeped in USAF tradition due to proximate USAF bases and or other military units.

But...

What if your unit is miles from such installations and exists in a military vacuum lacking even many prior service types.  One has to admit that there is no natural USAF/military culture present.  Thus, all that would be known is the manual and attempts to follow through.

How is that mitigated?  What can be done to mentor those that likely will likely have no mentor?  Done one run the risk of forming a "corporate" squadron?

What say you...

[Dragoon]

The only logical answer is that CAP training needs to cover everything needed to operate.  We cannot depend on having prior service types in a unit, or having a "military culture" in the community.

The fact is, more and more of our members have zero military service.  This became really apparent in the 80s, as the draft-age folks got too old, and CAP suffered what some jokingly call "the invasion of the mommies (or daddies)."  Seniors joined because their kids were in, not because they were trying to get back to their own military roots.

We ain't likely to have a huge standing military or a draft any time soon, so we have to accept the fact that most CAP leaders in the future won't have much military service.

So....CAP needs to spell it out in it's publications.  If you want senior members to salute, you have to teach it - and 10 minutes at Level 1 won't cut it.  You need mandatory classes in rank recognition, wear of the uniform, processing military correspondence, etc, if you want people to do these things.  Don't just assume that someone at the squadron will square everyone away.

And...CAP might also want to analyze what is truly do-able.  Now that half our seniors have no clue how to salute, is it worth our time to teach and enforce this custom, or do like CGAUX and eliminate the custom so we can use that training time for something more operationally minded.

We only have so many hours to train, and it ain't many.  We need to set firm but realistic standards, spell out what is required and then demand folks meet them.  And it may be that the "realistic" part precludes doing some "military" stuff that doesn't end up high on the priorities list.

[Eclipse]

And if its not happening at the unit, Group or wing should intervene to place leaders or advisors in place that can assist.

I know!  How about an NCO core to advise the commanders?!?!?  (sorry)

Seriously, though.  I deal with this issue all the time, and many unit CC's think they are doing their members a favor.  That is until those membersm especially cadets, have to interact with units or activities that have the culture and they are at a disadvantage, to say the least.

I've also found that the "embrace and extend" concept works very well.

Rather than constantly fight with the 1%'ers who will argue with every change, just start working your plan, and eventually they will come around or quit.

I am amazed at how man y members I have who said they could care less about ribbons and grade, who now are getting their bllues together because they see the rest of us doing it.

[carnold1836]

Really there isn't to many places in this country that you can't find at least some kind of military influence with in a 30 mile radius. If it's not a large base like Ft. Riley, KS or Naval Station San Diego, or Camp Lejeun, NC or Randolph AFB, TX, there are plenty of National Guard units all over the place as well as Naval Air Stations not to mention recruiting offices. Contact some of these folks they might not even know you are there. And even if they aren't Air Force, they can still help with some of the military bearing you are looking for.

[DogCollar]

We only have so many hours to train, and it ain't many.  We need to set firm but realistic standards, spell out what is required and then demand folks meet them.  And it may be that the "realistic" part precludes doing some "military" stuff that doesn't end up high on the priorities list.

Demand that folks meet standards and expectations?  Or.....what?  I agree that there is some need to re-educate on the military-like procedures and protocols within the confines of CAP.  However, I also believe that those who come to CAP from non-military backgrounds bring gifts and talents that are needed that enhance the culture of CAP more than detracts from it.  Why does CAP have to be "Either this Or that?"

[mikeylikey]

Call your State Director and see who is an AF reservist in your area.  There may be one! 

[Eclipse]

We only have so many hours to train, and it ain't many.  We need to set firm but realistic standards, spell out what is required and then demand folks meet them.  And it may be that the "realistic" part precludes doing some "military" stuff that doesn't end up high on the priorities list.

Demand that folks meet standards and expectations?  Or.....what?  I agree that there is some need to re-educate on the military-like procedures and protocols within the confines of CAP.  However, I also believe that those who come to CAP from non-military backgrounds bring gifts and talents that are needed that enhance the culture of CAP more than detracts from it.  Why does CAP have to be "Either this Or that?"

Sorry, I understand your point, but do not agree, even a little.

We have rules, standards, and policies, and that includes our paramilitary structure which is in place for a number of good reasons, not the least of which is that during real ES missions, people will tend to follow directions as told versus filtering with their opinion (safety issues aside).

WHAT and WHO we are should be made clear during the initial conversations, people either buy the whole package or they don't.

Yes, that reduces our potential pool of recruits, yes, some peopel with that magical "something" to contribute will be left by the wayside.

But even pre-school t-ball teams have requirements for participation, why shoudl we be any less?

The all-inclusive mentality is one of the problems with CAP.

[davedove]

Demand that folks meet standards and expectations?  Or.....what?  I agree that there is some need to re-educate on the military-like procedures and protocols within the confines of CAP.  However, I also believe that those who come to CAP from non-military backgrounds bring gifts and talents that are needed that enhance the culture of CAP more than detracts from it.  Why does CAP have to be "Either this Or that?"

That's right.  If CAP were meant to be composed of only military folks, prior service would have been a requirement.

In my experience, however, those who do not have military backgrounds want to do the military aspects of CAP service properly, but they just don't know how, and it's not really something you can learn from a book.  You have to have someone demonstrate the proper way to do things.  They want to learn, but it may take them a while because they didn't have it pounded into their head during basic training (I find it amazing.  It's been over 15 years since I've worn the Army uniform, but I still remember most of that stuff.)

As far as the threads question, if the local squadron doesn't have the exposure, it's up to Group and Wing to take up the slack.  It helps, of course, if the members of the Squadron want it.

[flyguy06]

I agree with eclipse. Everyone is not sutied for CAP. Its not a bad thing. it just is what it is. We have standards and we should follow them. If its not for you then that sfine. there is something out there for you.

To the comment made about there not being too many plaaces in the country wher ether eisnt a military base. My Sauqdron meets in the basement of a Baptist church in the inner city. The closets base is probably 20 miles away. But how will that help us?

And to  the comment about the National Guard. Well, they only meet once a month  on the weekends and they are very busy doing theior own thing since their time is limited as well. So, how can an Army Guard unit help us?

[DogCollar]

Eclipse...
ES missions from this time forward will be following the NIMS Incident Command structure.  It is based on the command structure of "civilian" emergency services...NOT the military.  This is done so that a mission that draws upon multiple agencies will have a single command structure.  It is to help communcation and hopefully ensure that the person with the most skill, training, and experience will be in command.  Miliatry structure will have nothing to do with it.  The people "offering" their opinion, even if they are Chariman of the Joint Chief of Staff, or a gung-ho NCO with 25 years experience leading combat troops will be told to get lost by the incident commander, who may be a "volunteer" firefighter with extensive training and experience in Incident Command.  

Yes, we have a military culture to CAP.  I'm not in denial about that.  Yet, we are civilian volunteers who are putting on the uniform and performing the missions.  

You know, this is essentially the identity question that keeps popping up on this board.  The tension between being both the USAF-AUX and a volunteer corporate entity seems to raise the level of anxiety among many of us.  However, I can live with that tension.  It is a major part of modern life, this living with identity questions, and I don' forsee it being resolved in the near future, for better or for worse.

All that philosophizing aside, I suppose we will have to shake cyber-hands and agree to disagree.

[Dragoon]

We only have so many hours to train, and it ain't many.  We need to set firm but realistic standards, spell out what is required and then demand folks meet them.  And it may be that the "realistic" part precludes doing some "military" stuff that doesn't end up high on the priorities list.

Demand that folks meet standards and expectations?  Or.....what?  I agree that there is some need to re-educate on the military-like procedures and protocols within the confines of CAP.  However, I also believe that those who come to CAP from non-military backgrounds bring gifts and talents that are needed that enhance the culture of CAP more than detracts from it.  Why does CAP have to be "Either this Or that?"

Yup.  Demand. Absolutely.

But note the whole quote - first we decide what we will require from members.  We make sure it's reasonable, necessary and fully documented (three things CAP ain't always good at.)  Then we demand compliance, or kick folks out.


After all, if the standards are reasonable  and necessary, then why have members who won't comply?  And if it's fully documented (so everyone can read it), then there's simply no excuse for not complying.  Kick 'em out.

But.....reasonable is the key.  If we are going to salute, for example, we should require it.  If aren't going to require it, we should officially state that is it optional (or not required).  Same thing for drill and ceremonies, pre operations checks on vans, uniform wear, senior member supervision of cadets, etc.

I mixed customs and courtesies with operational stuff for a reason - it all requires training, and we only get so long to train?  Which is more important to CAP - teaching seniors to march or teaching them to inspect the van?  If you only had an hour, which would you do first?


We have to ask these kind of hard questions in order to set truly reasonable standards.  And they simply won't be the same as active duty USAF - we just don't have the training time.

It ain't about being "military"  - it's about accomplishing the mission(s).

But once they are set - a CAP officer should meet those standards or turn in his ID card.

[Hawk200]

Yes, we have a military culture to CAP.  I'm not in denial about that.  Yet, we are civilian volunteers who are putting on the uniform and performing the missions.  

The key there is "putting on the uniform". By putting on the uniform, you agree to be part of its culture. It is the exact same thing whether you get paid for it or not. Military service is irrelevant.

Try volunteering at a volunteer fire department. If you don't follow the guidelines, you won't stay. That includes receiving their training and uniforms.

Some years ago IBM was known for its white collar shirts. They required their personnel to wear them. Do you think they would let you get away with wearing what ever you wanted?

I drive pizza for a living. I've been sent home on an occasion or two to get my nametag. Some people have been sent home to shave. Uniformity. Again.

Some Guard and Reserve personnel are operating under NIMS on certain occasions, when their mission calls for it. By your reasoning, they don't have to wear a uniform, or be concerned with the military structure.

Do you see where it falls apart? It was mentioned on another thread that our uniforms are considered "poser/pretenderism". Now if you're wearing a uniform, and someone asks you how you salute, or march, and your response is "I don't know", how credible do you think you're going to be?

[Eclipse]

I'm not sure how NIMS or not contradicts our paramilitary structure.

We've got two field assets - aircrews & ground teams - both continue to function in a paramilitary command structure regardless of who / how they receive their taskings.

As to the split personality, that doesn't relieve the issue either - whether you choose to wear service dress or a golf shirt, you are still bound by most courtesies, hold appointed grade, and must follow ALL the regs.

The mentality of "I wear a golf shirt and don't want to play Army" is what gets us in trouble because it allows the perception of a split personality to exist.

Misison type, funding, customer, or which uniform you wear doesn't make us any more or less paramilitary.

[Hawk200]

I mixed customs and courtesies with operational stuff for a reason - it all requires training, and we only get so long to train?  Which is more important to CAP - teaching seniors to march or teaching them to inspect the van?  If you only had an hour, which would you do first?

I like this scenario. It emphasizes the priorities at any given time. To me, it points out that maybe we need to break down the training into initial and follow on. You shouldn't be teaching a senior to salute in the field, and they don't need to learn to inspect a van in "OTS".

We have to ask these kind of hard questions in order to set truly reasonable standards.  And they simply won't be the same as active duty USAF - we just don't have the training time.

Agreed. There is certainly basic knowledge that is expected of all officers by the public in general. We need to quantify that, integrate it into our initial training, and teach it properly.

But once they are set - a CAP officer should meet those standards or turn in his ID card.

Interesting point. I don't recall an "oath" of any type when I initially joined, or when I rejoined, but out of curiousity, how many would not have joined if one were required? If there had been oath that you would follow all regulations and such, would you have walked away?

My thoughts and experiences are that if someone is unwilling to follow military structure and all it entails, that person is probably not going be reliable under any kind of structure.

Besides, NIMS isn't used to run our meetings, our cadet program, our pilot proficiency flights, our glider encampments, our USAF familiarization courses, or any internal program. Ditching paramilitary structure because it doesn't comply with NIMS strikes me as throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

[MIKE]

What about the Oath of Application on the back of the CAPF 12?

[Hawk200]

What about the Oath of Application on the back of the CAPF 12?

You know, I've read that, but I never really thought of it as a hard oath. It's not like we require a whole lot of compliance with it, and I've never seen anyone decide not to submit an application because of it. To me, it was nothing new, and was stuff I was complying with anyway. I was just wearing a different uniform.

Maybe we should start making people a little more firmly aware of it when they sign up.

[Al Sayre]

Maybe we should stand them (Officers and Cadets) up in front of the meeting, have them raise their right hand and "swear in" before submitting their application, and then have a nice little welcome aboard ceremony after... I don't see anything that says we can't, and it might make more of an impression than: "Here sign this and give me your check"... YMMV

[DNall]

Demand that folks meet standards and expectations?  Or.....what?  I agree that there is some need to re-educate on the military-like procedures and protocols within the confines of CAP.  However, I also believe that those who come to CAP from non-military backgrounds bring gifts and talents that are needed that enhance the culture of CAP more than detracts from it.  Why does CAP have to be "Either this Or that?"

Cause we are this & not that. Doctors bring a great skill to the military when they sign up & the military couldn't function with out them there. Yet, those doctors are militarized to function within the culture. CAP is part of the military culture and must function with, thru, beside, representing, etc the military. If you have a teacher or houswife or accountant that brings excellent outside skill to the table, by all means bring them in, teach tem some absic military skills & how to become part of the military culture. It's not for everyone, but most people are willing to accept the challnge & hardship to gain the recognition & acceptance.

[BillB]

I have never seen a time or place where Seniors need to march. They do need to know how to fall in, salute, and basic facing movements, but that's about the extent. The problem comes up with the multitude of uniforms that seniors can wear. You can have ten seniors at a meeting and no two will be in the same uniform. Perhaps at a Senior Squadron meeting this would be acceptable, but when cadets see seniors in these uniforms, often obsolete phased out golf shirts and brown pants or blue jeans, what image does this present?  Commanders are afraid to correct senior members for fear they will drop from the program. The question is do they contribute enough to offset their ignoring requlations?

[Major Carrales]

I have run into people who's all purpose answer is "its in the regs" and who's first response is to ridicule when the initial person did not follow/interpret it correctly or to his liking.

It's not hard to imagine a well meaning "group" in a somewhat isolated town starting a CAP unit and being sent a "Unit Start Up kit" having little or no help from anyone.  If that Unit is kept in isolation and is fed lines like  "Its all in the regs, Dummy!" how can you expect anything resembling proper procedure.

Or, if this Unit gets off the ground and is not in an area or has personnel versed in USAF customs and military courtesy, how can you expect them to maintain the desired level of those items.

Guard and Reservists are not likely to take an active role in that unit.