Air Force Budget to CAP

[Earhart1971]

UPDATE!!!!!  Here is the link for Fiscal Year 2008 AF budget to CAP
https://www.saffm.hq.af.mil/FMB/pb/2008/afoandm_3400/AF3400_OM_Vol1_FY08_PB.pdf

CAP SPECIFICS begin on page 887

Not sure if it is good news    or bad news   

Mikey, looks like they took 4 million out, we are down to 21 Million for FY 08

But they add in equipment of:  1.8 Million

Civil Air Patrol Support ... $ 1,869
Program increase supports equipment and other contract purchases which allow the Civil Air Patrol to carry out its mission as
the official civilian auxiliary of the Air Force. (FY 2007 Base: $21,087)

And equipment means nothing, its not operational funding.

I wonder what our 1942-43 funding was adjusted to todays dollars?

[lordmonar]

You have to read the pages to understand, did you do that?

Yes.....it was talking about the JROTC and their budget and the number of cadets in their program.

I can read you know.....I don't understand what point you are trying to make about it.

You obviously thinks this is the proof that seals your case....but you have not made a case yet.

[Earhart1971]

You have to read the pages to understand, did you do that?

Yes.....it was talking about the JROTC and their budget and the number of cadets in their program.

I can read you know.....I don't understand what point you are trying to make about it.

You obviously thinks this is the proof that seals your case....but you have not made a case yet.

I disagree, I think if you read my posts, you will understand what I am getting at.

[lordmonar]

You have to read the pages to understand, did you do that?

Yes.....it was talking about the JROTC and their budget and the number of cadets in their program.

I can read you know.....I don't understand what point you are trying to make about it.

You obviously thinks this is the proof that seals your case....but you have not made a case yet.

I disagree, I think if you read my posts, you will understand what I am getting at.

You disagree...that I don't understand what you are getting at?  Let's try that one again!

Let me make this very clear.  What does JROTC have to do with CAP's Budget?

[Earhart1971]

AFROTC and CAP Cadet Program are a fair comparison.

AFJROTC was started in 1966, with the generous donation of CAP Aerospace Education Books, and the CAP Cadet Leadership Lab Manual, as the program material.  Jack Sorenson, a CAP employee, designed the modern CAP Cadet Program, the Air Force used the books unchanged into the 80s. An AFROTC Instructor showed me the books and was surprised to hear they were originally published by CAP.

I am comparing this:

60 Million dollars for a Cadet Program.

And 23 Million dollars for HLS, SAR, Border, Aerospace Education, and a Cadet Program.  100,000 hours of Flight hours per year.

CAP takes a funding hit FY 08.

The Air Force pays 60 Million, (with budget increases) for a Cadet Program.

So, its a fallacy to say the CAP missions are only worth 23 million, the Air Force fully funds a Cadet Mission only, for 60 Million.

Therefore, the Air Force has established the worth of a single mission (Cadet Program), and is selective in favoring budget increases on a one mission organization.

The Air Force favors fully funded programs and paid employees over volunteers. They increase the budget of AFJROTC and decrease the budget of CAP.

And if something were to happen to CAP, 100,000 Flight hours would have to be flown by the Air Force.

A half Billion worth of budget problem would then exist for the Air Force.

So, my conclusion is the Air Force, favors its own Cadet Program over the CAP Organization and its many programs.

The Air Force bottom line favors paid employees over volunteers.

Now with money anything is possible, with 60 million what would CAP be able to accomplish?

[Dragoon]

With 60 million we'd hire paid employees to do the work, and then we BE JROTC!   

I think you're dead on that USAF prefers  the paid program.  After all, they have a lot more control over folks they can fire, than over a corporation whose members can just get up and quit any time they want with no financial ramifications.

If you ran the Air Force, you'd probably want folks you could control too.

The one flaw I see in your logic is claiming that JROTC funding is proof that CAP's missions are only worth $23M

It could be that in the Air Force's eyes, the results of JROTC (including the in-school presence) is worth more to them than the results of CAP's volunteer, after hours cadet program.  Hence the disparity in funding.

[Earhart1971]

With 60 million we'd hire paid employees to do the work, and then we BE JROTC!   

I think you're dead on that USAF prefers  the paid program.  After all, they have a lot more control over folks they can fire, than over a corporation whose members can just get up and quit any time they want with no financial ramifications.

If you ran the Air Force, you'd probably want folks you could control too.

The one flaw I see in your logic is claiming that JROTC funding is proof that CAP's missions are only worth $23M

It could be that in the Air Force's eyes, the results of JROTC (including the in-school presence) is worth more to them than the results of CAP's volunteer, after hours cadet program.  Hence the disparity in funding.

Dragoon, I was saying its a fallacy to think CAP is only worth 23 mil, in the comparison, what I really mean is CAP with all its missions, is worth more than that, a lot more.

My point is CAP with 3 missions or more, we need more funding, and with that funding it benefits the country.

CAP has a school program that is very successful, where its properly funded.

Sheldon Middle School in Houston has a 200 plus cadet unit.

Now if the CAP got full funding to start CAP Middle School Cadet Programs, then, it would not be after hours, that part of the CAP Organization would comprise full time instructors, who could also be unit commanders.

But CAP would have a higher level of volunteers (than AFROTC) on the weekends to help with activities. If you have a 150 Cadet Unit, you attract Seniors back into the program. Seniors that were former cadets.

AFJROTC is in very few Middle Schools.

My next point is CAP and AFJROTC can help each other.

Divided between part time paid volunteers and full time paid CAP Instructors, CAP could do a lot more to help the AFJROTC Program and the AFROTC Program.

The focus should be on partnership not competing rivals.

But if we got  an equivalent funding of 60 million per year, all three missions could be expanded.

Full time CAP Flying units, would be in the mix, we need that yesterday for border security.

I would get the Middle School Program funded by the Department of Education, with focused grants for introduction of the CAP Elective in Middle Schools, that support the program.

After one year the Air Force would be solid behind this, but for the start it would take many Congressmen on the band wagon, behind a plan that is worked out by National HQ.

[lordmonar]

When/if CAP ever has a cadet program as large as the JROTC program then we would have a $60M+ budget.

As it is now...we have what 1/10th of the cadets?

Dragoon....it is important to note...that the JROTC instructors are NOT federal employees....the work for the schools.  The USAF subsidises their pay...but they work for the school district not AFOATS.  The USAF controls the curriculm and only has the power to recommend instructors...the schools do the hiring and firing.

We are only worth $24M because that is what it costs to do our missions.  If we did more we would get paid more.

[Earhart1971]

When/if CAP ever has a cadet program as large as the JROTC program then we would have a $60M+ budget.

Chicken or Egg Argument.

We have established that CAP can run on the Cheap. The CAP program runs on AIR and the wallets of CAP families, its been done for over 60 years.

The Dynamics of AFJROTC is all a person has to do is check off an elective box at the beginning of the school year, no out of pocket cost.

CAP doe not have that advantage. I could recruit half my daughters middle school if I were funded.

The Air Force put the money up front for a fully funded, no cost to the cadets approach, paid instructors, and in the schools is where the kids are.

The Air Force in 1966 had no course work to develop, because they used CAPs Program, tested over many years.

The market penetration in a good school program is 10% or more, all that is needed is the will to do it, by CAP.

Its already being done below Air Force costs.

If CAP had that same advantage of instant funding, CAP which has a more robust and comprehensive cadet program, and would explode in numbers too.

Sheldon Cadet Squadron is proof of that.

Budget cost would probably be lower than the AF costs.

That way CAP could do the same thing and actually support the AFJROTC mission by producing 3 year CAP Cadets graduating to High School AFJROTC.

CAP could even advance a High School Program where AFJROTC does not exist.

I would seek the support of Congress, if the Air Force Secretary shoots down the idea, for budget reasons.

The Air Force one shot at support, then go direct to Home Land Security or the Dept of Education.

Thats only part of my issue.

60 Million and believe CAP can equal, the out put of 200,000 cadets and run the other missions better.

So for the Federal equivalent of peanuts 60 million CAP could rocket past AFJROTC numbers.

But we're still talking about support 3 missions, instead of one, all of them could be done.

And for startup, if the Air Force is hostile to it, HLS, Dept of Education, or Congress.

My guess is the Air Force has never been approached with this, with this type of comparison, or offer of cooperation from CAP.

The money can be found outside the Air Force Budget.

But to be fair I would present this proposal to the Air Force, and give them the chance to take credit for enhancing two vital organizations in time of war.

[lordmonar]

When/if CAP ever has a cadet program as large as the JROTC program then we would have a $60M+ budget.

Chicken or Egg Argument.

We have established that CAP can run on the Cheap. The CAP program runs on AIR and the wallets of CAP families, its been done for over 60 years.

The Dynamics of AFJROTC is all a person has to do is check off an elective box at the beginning of the school year, no out of pocket cost.

CAP doe not have that advantage. I could recruit half my daughters middle school if I were funded.

The Air Force put the money up front for a fully funded, no cost to the cadets approach, paid instructors, and in the schools is where the kids are.

The Air Force in 1966 had no course work to develop, because they used CAPs Program, tested over many years.

The market penetration in a good school program is 10% or more, all that is needed is the will to do it, by CAP.

Its already being done below Air Force costs.

If CAP had that same advantage of instant funding, CAP which has a more robust and comprehensive cadet program, and would explode in numbers too.

Sheldon Cadet Squadron is proof of that.

Budget cost would probably be lower than the AF costs.

That way CAP could do the same thing and actually support the AFJROTC mission by producing 3 year CAP Cadets graduating to High School AFJROTC.

CAP could even advance a High School Program where AFJROTC does not exist.

I would seek the support of Congress, if the Air Force Secretary shoots down the idea, for budget reasons.

The Air Force one shot at support, then go direct to Home Land Security or the Dept of Education.

Thats only part of my issue.

60 Million and believe CAP can equal, the out put of 200,000 cadets and run the other missions better.

So for the Federal equivalent of peanuts 60 million CAP could rocket past AFJROTC numbers.

But we're still talking about support 3 missions, instead of one, all of them could be done.

And for startup, if the Air Force is hostile to it, HLS, Dept of Education, or Congress.

My guess is the Air Force has never been approached with this, with this type of comparison, or offer of cooperation from CAP.

The money can be found outside the Air Force Budget.

But to be fair I would present this proposal to the Air Force, and give them the chance to take credit for enhancing two vital organizations in time of war.

The only problem with our argument is the the example of the Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts.  They have more people than us and they don't get hardly any government funding.  They get their money by paying the expense for fund raiser to make more money.

The USAF is not going to fund both a JROTC and a CAP program at the same funding levels......now here is the intresting question...with our middle school initive and JROTC being in the high schools......could JROTC and CAP CP merge?

Think on that?

Or secondly....could CAP just drop the CP altoghther in lieu of JROTC?

I am not advocating either one...but maybe the problem is that CAP is trying to do too many things....maybe we should just drop the CP and AE all together.

Sure...if you funded CAP CP with $60M...we could do JROTC.  We could run 800+ schools and fund the salaries for 1600+ full time instructors......but we are not asking to do that.  What would CAP do with $60M in CP funds?  Sure we could fund some kick ass encampments...and some nice NCSAs but is funding really an issue for CP?

If you can recruit 1/2 your daughter's school...why don't you?  You can find some local sponsor that could help pay for unifroms and books.  We could dump all the extra unifomr requirements that some units think they need.  The USAF is already paying for our uniforms.

It is an chicken and egg situaiton.  You come up with a comprehensive plan of how we would spend the money and what benifits we will get and send it up to congress.  If they like it...they will fund it.  But you can't just say....give me money...and I'll give you a better program.  It does not work like that any more than tying to get a buisness loan.  You don't say...give me some money and I think I can start a buisness....because this guy over here has done a great job of doing it.....you have to have your own buisness plan.

[Earhart1971]

I read an article about the CAP Program in an Australian Air Force publication.

They were beside themselves about the greatness of the CAP Cadet Program.

It was nearly dripping with worship, and this is from another country's Air Force.

So, I believe the CAP Cadet Program is the original Program.

AFJROTC that evolves from our books and materials, is just not the same, and a Unit of AFJROTC would not have the advantage, of having a Cadre of Zillions of Senior Volunteers in addition to the paid instructors.

General Ryan said this "Once a CAP CADET, always a CAP CADET"

Now of course the way to quick funds is for the Air Force to support the CAP Middle School Initiative.

I have looked at budgets of $500 per cadet per year turn key, as a bare bones not out of pocket for the Schools for first year or so.

You would need a minimum of 120 cadets or so, on a launch of a unit.

Plus, the Air Force kicks in bulk uniforms, like AFJROTC.


The market penetration in the Middle School Program could be better than AFJROTC penetration. Middle Schools have very little electives choices.

There are things CAP can do that AFJROTC cannot.

For lack of funding, I would have a 200 Cadet Unit now as we speak, had the principle got what he wanted from the School Board.

But if we were depending totally on Air Force Support, and I was talking to the right people in the Air Force.

1. CAP Cadets with 3 years experience graduation to high schools with AFJROTC, some with Mitchells, you got yourself a chance at some great big AFJROTC units, and still have co - enrollment in CAP.

2. CAP Seniors working in cooperation with AFJROTC Instructors, hey our Middle School is having a FLY DAY, you want to bring your HS unit along.

3. Hey, we are having a SAR Bivouac, my Cadet Commander is your Group Commander, we invite your HS unit to our Bivouac.

The CAP Cadet program with its after school activities, encampments, special activities, IACE, this is a huge possible cooperative expansion that can benefit both programs.

The cost is trivial.

Any amount would fund a startup, 5 million and up.

Tell the Air Force to refund the 3 million cut and we would show some great numbers, in a conservative startup.

Just my idea.

[Earhart1971]

Civil Air Patrol does not attract Private Funds at the National Level.

The Boy Scouts work their rich alumni from 100 years of membership and families donate land to them by the 1000s of acres, I heard they are the largest landowner besides the government in the Continental U.S.

I know I have raised funds on a local level for a squadron, but not on a National Level.

National has tried for years to develop that, it has not worked.

My guess is we are perceived as a Government entity, therefore most people think we are not a charity to give to.

School Admin in the upper chain of Command shot down the idea.

But I am still working other Counties in the Area.

[Dragoon]

My guess is we are perceived as a Government entity, therefore most people think we are not a charity to give to.

I think you're dead-on correct here.  Our Government ties make folks think we already have money.  We've run into that when convincing FBOs that we can't afford to pay rent (they keep think USAF is gonna drop a couple thousand bucks on them if they ask).