Composite Squadrons that have a Divided Senior & Cadet Program

[Guardrail]

I have an issue I thought I should bring up.  There is a composite squadron I know of that has had, for as long as I've known, a divided senior and cadet program.  The cadets and seniors meet on different nights, wear different uniforms, and almost never interact with each other. 

I checked wiktionary.com, an online dictionary, for the word "composite."  Here's what came up:

"Made up of multiple components; compound or complex... A mixture of different components."

Given this definition, it would seem that a composite squadron that does not have seniors and cadets who interact regularly is really not a composite squadron.  It's more like a cadet squadron and senior squadron who meet in the same building.   

Additionally, the squadron commander does almost nothing to facilitate the cadet program, leaving the DCC to do everything.  Last I checked, the squadron commander is responsible for conducting the cadet program in accordance with CAPR 52-16 (1-1 para. a).   

Is this common?  Is there anything that can be done to fix these problems? 

[lordmonar]

Composite means two missions under one squadron.

It is in fact a Cadet Squadron and a Senior Squadron under one command/staff element.

That they meet on different days and have little interaction is not a big deal.  In fact....there should be little SM interaction (only supervision) with any cadet actvities.

The closest interaction between the cadet side and senior side would be when the cadet officers are working under the SM staff officers while they do their SDAs.

Should they meet on the same night?  They could but it is not necessary.  They should not be at the same meetings though.  The SM's need to be off doing SM stuff and the cadets need to be off doing cadet stuff.  Different meeting nights may be better because it allows the staff to focus on one program at a time.

The commander is required to facilitate the CP.....and he should have a DCC to do it....You should be able to find that the deputy commander is mentioned several time in 52-16 and if you check the org charts in 20-1 you will see exactly who is supposed to run the program in a composite squadron.

[RiverAux]

There is very little need for seniors and cadets to interact as part of regular squadron business.  Most composite squadrons that have seniors and cadets meeting on the same night have so few seniors that they are really cadet squadrons in all but name. 

[Guardrail]

Most composite squadrons that have seniors and cadets meeting on the same night have so few seniors that they are really cadet squadrons in all but name. 

Such was the case at the squadron I was in as a cadet.

Maybe that's why I think there's something wrong with senior members being separate from cadets at Composite squadrons.  It just seems like if seniors and cadets are on the same team, they should both meet on the same night (and follow the same standard for UOD).

I do believe, however, that the commander of a composite squadron should provide adequate oversight for the cadet program and not rely on the DCC for all things cadet-related.  There's more to running a squadron than making sure there are enough flights for the pilots to be satisfied.  

[mikeylikey]

I am interested in this topic.  Question, are there officers attending both the cadet meeting and the senior metting?  The logistics of running two seperate meetings on different nights, just seems more than it is worth!

[Guardrail]

I am interested in this topic.  Question, are there officers attending both the cadet meeting and the senior metting?  The logistics of running two seperate meetings on different nights, just seems more than it is worth!

Before I go on, I was wrong about the cadets and seniors meeting on different nights.  They meet on the same night, except cadets meet every Tuesday and the seniors only meet every 2nd and 4th Tuesday of the month.

Now then... in answer to your question, the only officers who attend the cadet meetings are the DCC and MLO.  Everyone else, including the SQ/CC, meet on the 2nd and 4th Tuesdays of the month.  The DCC and MLO do not attend senior meetings, because they are busy with the cadets.  The only "senior meetings" the DCC and MLO attend are Commander's Calls.   

I do agree that holding seperate meetings on different nights is more work than it is worth.  Of course, having a senior member meeting that is separate and distinct from the cadet meeting on the same night is kind of the same thing.  The problem I have is that the squadron is too separated and there is a feeling of a lack of teamwork between the cadets and seniors. 

Even though a composite squadron has seniors and cadets, they are all on the same team.       

[carnold1836]

In reality the squadron commander really doesn't have to do much of anything if he has the right people in place. All he needs to do is make sure all the reports are in on time and that the program, either cadet or senior side, is being run according to regs. The burden for a cadet program does fall on the DCC if the DCC can't run the program then the commander needs to remove them and fill the position with someone that is effective. The squadron commander should be nothing more than a manager of people, which then allows him to do the things that he wants to do such as GT or AC or Com. If he is being hands on then something is definitely wrong with his program.

[Guardrail]

In reality the squadron commander really doesn't have to do much of anything if he has the right people in place. All he needs to do is make sure all the reports are in on time and that the program, either cadet or senior side, is being run according to regs.

I agree, sir.  Problem is, the cadet program is not being run according to regs.  And the commander spends so much time either in his office or on the "senior side" that he either doesn't know about the problems or does and doesn't care.  Here are a couple of the problems:

• DCC is not knowledgable of the 52-16
• Cadet being held back from Curry Achievement for more than 8 months

  

The burden for a cadet program does fall on the DCC if the DCC can't run the program then the commander needs to remove them and fill the position with someone that is effective. The squadron commander should be nothing more than a manager of people, which then allows him to do the things that he wants to do such as GT or AC or Com. If he is being hands on then something is definitely wrong with his program.

Well, the commander is not hands-on,  but he is not much of a manager (or leader), either.  The DCC of the squadron has had more than ample time to get his stuff together, and clearly has not made the cut.  But the CC chooses not to replace the DCC for reasons I do not know.  Likely it is because there is no one to replace him, but that is just a guess.

Clearly, this commander cares more about the senior program and flying than the cadet program, and so does the DCC (at least with regard to the flying). 

[DNall]

Think about the flying club dynamic we have, the degree to which most cadets think most seniors are a joke at best... it's useful to have them sharing the same space & the same command structure, even if that's far from the best most efficient way to operate. I'd say if you can get a successful adult program going on one night & a successful cadet program going on another, which sharing some resources between, be happy with that, it's a lot better than the alternative. Would it be better if our members followed Joe & the Nat/CC's philosophy of a whole-CAP member that's devoted to all aspects of the org, well yeah obviously, but baby-steps.

If you can at least use the adult side as a pool from which to draw support then that's a good step. If you can cross-walk on activities, that's a good step. If you can maximize resources between teh two, that's a big step. It's just one of the multi-personaility wierd problematic aspects of CAP that we have to deal with. In there end there's better or as good adult programs out there (SDF's, CGAux, etc), & there's better cadet programs out there (ACA, JROTC, etc). But together we're greater than the sum of our parts & able to surpass those other orgs because of it.

[DNall]

I agree, sir.  Problem is, the cadet program is not being run according to regs.  And the commander spends so much time either in his office or on the "senior side" that he either doesn't know about the problems or does and doesn't care.  Here are a couple of the problems:

• DCC is not knowledgable of the 52-16
• Cadet being held back from Curry Achievement for more than 8 months

-snip-

Well, the commander is not hands-on,  but he is not much of a manager (or leader), either.  The DCC of the squadron has had more than ample time to get his stuff together, and clearly has not made the cut.  But the CC chooses not to replace the DCC for reasons I do not know.  Likely it is because there is no one to replace him, but that is just a guess.

Clearly, this commander cares more about the senior program and flying than the cadet program, and so does the DCC (at least with regard to the flying). 

That's BS. If you're having those problems, they can & should be fixed. PM me & we'll talk.

[Major Carrales]

In our unit, we include the cadets in a sort of General Assembly and then break them off into their own session.  Similarly, Air and Ground seniors would also have a "breakout session" to address the needs of their programs.

Remember, Cadets are as much part of a composite squadron as the Officers are.  They should know each other.  If one's unit does ES, Officers and Cadet need to really know of each other and what is effecting the unit that they will be a part of.

Treat cadets as mere "kids" and that is all they will be...include them in the overall picture of the unit (with responsibility within reason and regs) and they can grow.

[lordmonar]

I do believe, however, that the commander of a composite squadron should provide adequate oversight for the cadet program and not rely on the DCC for all things cadet-related.  There's more to running a squadron than making sure there are enough flights for the pilots to be satisfied.

Yes, you are right.  There is more thing to running a squadron than.....

All I got is two questions.....1) Is the program at this squadron being ran effectively? 2) Why do you care how anyone else runs his/her squadron, that's the wing commander's job.

[DNall]

Treat cadets as mere "kids" and that is all they will be...include them in the overall picture of the unit (with responsibility within reasons and regs) and they can grow.

Amen!

[lordmonar]

I just have one question/comment to Guardrail.

Are you or are you not a member of the Civil Air Patrol?  I had heard that you were not currently a member...so why do you care how anything in CAP is done?  If you do care....join up and help out.  If this DCC does not know his job...maybe he needs an expert just like you to show him the ropes.

Otherwise...break off! 

I get a little tired of you digging up "problems" you have have with CAP but don't a lot of follow through or commitment to actually help with the supposed problems.

[flyguy06]

Most composite squadrons that have seniors and cadets meeting on the same night have so few seniors that they are really cadet squadrons in all but name. 

Such was the case at the squadron I was in as a cadet.

Maybe that's why I think there's something wrong with senior members being separate from cadets at Composite squadrons.  It just seems like if seniors and cadets are on the same team, they should both meet on the same night (and follow the same standard for UOD).

I do believe, however, that the commander of a composite squadron should provide adequate oversight for the cadet program and not rely on the DCC for all things cadet-related.  There's more to running a squadron than making sure there are enough flights for the pilots to be satisfied.  

Its not they are not on the same team, but whats he reason for seniors and cadets to meet together? The cadets will be out drilling, or doing Aerospace current events or building model rockets. The Seniors dont do this. The seniors are haveing formal meetings and discussing finances and holding SLS and CLC type training Cadets would be bored. SO, whats the practicle reason for them to meet onthe same night? I know some that do meet on the same night and I know some that dont. It deosnt make a diffeerence. Its a command decision.

[ZigZag911]

There is a time for everything.....strong, healthy units have some activities with everybody together...could be the 'general assembly' someone mentioned, could be the monthly safety briefing (especially in a unit with no aircraft), could be aerospace current events, or even moral leadership on occasion....yeah, seniors aren't required to do some of these things, but that doesn't say they can't, when interested and appropriate....could be a firs aid class, or DF class, or comm class....whatever....could be planning the annual squadron picnic!

There are cadet activities, and senior activities...but there are also CAP activities common to all.....it's not good for the officers and cadets to have no interaction at all (especially if the CC moves on and one of those officers takes over! might as well be an outsider)

[flight dispatcher]

"Even though a composite squadron has seniors and cadets, they are all on the same team."

This was my experience as a cadet. The cadets would meet on the same nights as the Seniors. Part of our meeting was used to conduct our specific training. ES and Safety was conducted jointly. I never felt like we were to seperate groups. And on SAREX's those same Seniors, even though they wouldn't travel with us to the site, they would always kept tabs on us. That being said, since I turned Senior and lived in a few different states, I did find on occasion where the unit turned composite but still functioned like a cadet squadron. From my experience, I have always felt we train members, not cadets only or Senior's only. In reality CAP should just ditch the cadet and Senior designations for squadrons. They all should be composite in nature.

To add on to DNall's point:

"In there end there's better or as good adult programs out there (SDF's, CGAux, etc), & there's better cadet programs out there (ACA, JROTC, etc)."

-Teach Aerospace Education and Flying, you could create an BSA Explorer Post.

Ground Serach and Rescue, there are counties across country that host their own volunteer teams.

The only thing we have to offer that the others don't is the aircraft capability at a cheap hourly rate.

[mikeylikey]

"In there end there's better or as good adult programs out there (SDF's, CGAux, etc), & there's better cadet programs out there (ACA, JROTC, etc)."

I have seen many jacked up JROTC units.  I have also seem many awesome units.  It all depends on the adult leadership of those units.  The same is true for CAP.  I am tired of seeing units that don't give much effort to the cadet program.  I am really tired of seeing officers that should be administering the CP, but they think they are better than that or have no idea what they are doing.  I always believed that there should be no separate senior and cadet squadrons.  All squadrons should be composite, since one of the missions is the CP to begin with!

[Guardrail]

Yes, you are right.  There is more thing to running a squadron than.....

All I got is two questions.....1) Is the program at this squadron being ran effectively? 2) Why do you care how anyone else runs his/her squadron, that's the wing commander's job.

1) No sir, the cadet program at this squadron is not being run effectively.  The DCC does not have a working knowledge of the CAPR 52-16, CAPM 20-1, (or even the 39-1), and all other regs that pertain to the cadet program.  He has received many a visit from the group DCP, yet still is not up to standard.  I think he cares more about the flying than anything else; he is a mission pilot.  He certainly does not put the cadets first, which is troubling since he is the DCC and in charge of young people. 

2) I care about how this squadron is run because when I joined that unit 9 years ago, there were major problems... and today there are still major problems.  Anyone who wants a quality cadet program experience will have to travel 30 miles to the next-nearest unit.   

Please keep in mind, I don't go there and tell people how to do things or anything like that.  This forum is the extent of my offerings of support to the unit in question.  All I'm doing right now is seeing what other people say in the hope of using that info when I decide to re-join CAP and help out the squadron (that is, if they'll even let me... not everyone there wants to follow the rules).   

A little background...

As a cadet at that squadron, I was held back from the Curry achievement for 8 months due to discrimination.  Because of this, I left the unit and had to drive 30 miles to the next nearest unit.  Now 9 years later, there are still major problems at the unit and I feel it is wrong for anyone to have to drive to another town because the program at the nearest unit is a mess and there is no accountability.

[Guardrail]

I just have one question/comment to Guardrail.

Are you or are you not a member of the Civil Air Patrol?  I had heard that you were not currently a member...so why do you care how anything in CAP is done?  If you do care....join up and help out.  If this DCC does not know his job...maybe he needs an expert just like you to show him the ropes.

Otherwise...break off! 

I get a little tired of you digging up "problems" you have have with CAP but don't a lot of follow through or commitment to actually help with the supposed problems.

No Capt Harris, I am no longer a member of Civil Air Patrol.  After 9 years in the cadet program, I decided to take a break and focus on my education before getting back into CAP.   

I get a little tired of you digging up "problems" you have with CAP but don't have a lot of follow through or commitment to actually help with the supposed problems.

Just because I am not a member now, does not mean that I cannot help solve the problems I find with CAP.  Someone on this forum or others may find what I have to say valuable and use it for the betterment of their own unit.  To that end, I am effecting a follow through to my commitment to make CAP better.  It's just not me; it's someone else. 

I have the feeling that some people are jealous or upset that a non-member such as I could point out problem areas in CAP and "stir the pot", without National being able to do anything to me.  Well, I've got news - stirring the pot is not my intention.  Some people get on forums just to cause trouble and disrupt the forum.  Why not go after those people?  I feel as though some people are treating me as a troublemaker when, in fact, I am not. 

So go after the real troublemakers... I have nothing but constructive comments for this forum, and that's how it will stay.  And I will re-join CAP when I am ready.  If someone has a problem with that, they'll just have to deal.

Back to the topic...

[Major Lord]

"I was held back from the Curry achievement for 8 months due to discrimination."

Pardon me while I silence all the alarms on my B.S. meter.....I think there is  smoke coming out of it... You of course filed a complaint through the appropriate CAP channels?

[Guardrail]

"I was held back from the Curry achievement for 8 months due to discrimination."

Pardon me while I silence all the alarms on my B.S. meter.....I think there is  smoke coming out of it... You of course filed a complaint through the appropriate CAP channels?

No, I did not sir.  I just simply packed my bags and transferred to the next nearest unit.  Looking back, I wish I had filed a complaint (though it's tough to say if it would have gone through or not).

And how would the discrimination against me be classified as B.S.?

[AlphaSigOU]

"I was held back from the Curry achievement for 8 months due to discrimination."

Pardon me while I silence all the alarms on my B.S. meter.....I think there is  smoke coming out of it... You of course filed a complaint through the appropriate CAP channels?

No, I did not sir.  I just simply packed my bags and transferred to the next nearest unit.  Looking back, I wish I had filed a complaint (though it's tough to say if it would have gone through or not).

And how would the discrimination against me be classified as B.S.?

Don't jump on Capt. Lord's case... unfortunately way too many cadets these days will put up some kind of an excuse on why they didn't promote and not file a complaint. Naturally, some will take the above as Bravo Sierra whinery unless there's a good explanation - and to me, you explained yourself why in your post above.

[ZigZag911]

Doesn't it seem unlikely that a cadet who has not yet qualified for the Curry would have the least idea how to go about filing a complaint?

The cadet's parents would, perhaps, if they got that involved.

[Guardrail]

"I was held back from the Curry achievement for 8 months due to discrimination."

Pardon me while I silence all the alarms on my B.S. meter.....I think there is  smoke coming out of it... You of course filed a complaint through the appropriate CAP channels?

No, I did not sir.  I just simply packed my bags and transferred to the next nearest unit.  Looking back, I wish I had filed a complaint (though it's tough to say if it would have gone through or not).

And how would the discrimination against me be classified as B.S.?

Don't jump on Capt. Lord's case... unfortunately way too many cadets these days will put up some kind of an excuse on why they didn't promote and not file a complaint. Naturally, some will take the above as Bravo Sierra whinery unless there's a good explanation - and to me, you explained yourself why in your post above.

Not to be disrespectful sir, but where in my post does it look like I am jumping on Capt Lord's case?  All I did was answer his question, and ask one of my own. 

[Guardrail]

Doesn't it seem unlikely that a cadet who has not yet qualified for the Curry would have the least idea how to go about filing a complaint?

The cadet's parents would, perhaps, if they got that involved.

You'd be surprised.  I didn't file a complaint, since I was only 12 at the time (and didn't know much about CAP, let alone how to file a complaint) and although I had a parent who did get involved, she was alienated by the squadron to the point where filing a complaint would have done no good. 

[ZigZag911]

Doesn't it seem unlikely that a cadet who has not yet qualified for the Curry would have the least idea how to go about filing a complaint?

The cadet's parents would, perhaps, if they got that involved.

You'd be surprised.  I didn't file a complaint, since I was only 12 at the time (and didn't know much about CAP, let alone how to file a complaint) and although I had a parent who did get involved, she was alienated by the squadron to the point where filing a complaint would have done no good. 

Agreed, I was trying to say it was a bit much to expect you to know the IG process @ 12!

[Guardrail]

Doesn't it seem unlikely that a cadet who has not yet qualified for the Curry would have the least idea how to go about filing a complaint?

The cadet's parents would, perhaps, if they got that involved.

You'd be surprised.  I didn't file a complaint, since I was only 12 at the time (and didn't know much about CAP, let alone how to file a complaint) and although I had a parent who did get involved, she was alienated by the squadron to the point where filing a complaint would have done no good. 

Agreed, I was trying to say it was a bit much to expect you to know the IG process @ 12!

Oh, okay.  Sorry about that.  Minor detail.