Is CAP under funded and Over tasked?

[Earhart1971]

I think it would help the discussion on this thread to read the "CAP and Air Force Budget" Thread too. Currently 5 down from the top in the lobby section.

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=1505.20

Some lively discussions along this subject.

[RogueLeader]

Even if USAF doesn't,or wouldn't care if we stopped External AE, that doesn't mean that we could. According to my understanding of CAP Charter, we are required of preforming that activity.

[Dragoon]

Even if USAF doesn't,or wouldn't care if we stopped External AE, that doesn't mean that we could. According to my understanding of CAP Charter, we are required of preforming that activity.

AE is in the law and the SOW, probably because we, though our lobbying effort,  put it there.

But it has no particular performance standards.  We have to do SOMETHING, but we don't neccesarily have to do much.  And truthfully, how much do we do anyway?  Most units have no external AE program at all, and CAP just gave up ownership of NCASE.


But this brings up a very good point - what exactly are the current performance standards CAP is measured against? 

I just read the statement of work, and to summarize, CAP is tasked to:

1.  Do SAR/DR - but there's no mention of a requirement to do any particular amount of SAR/DR, or to have any minimum response times or truthfully anything measurable.

2.  Radio Nets - but this is optional.  We are "encouraged" but not required to maintain nationwide comms networks.

3.  Do Other Missions (they mentioin damage assessment, photo recon, filling sandbags, light airlift, etc) for USAF, DoD and civil authorities, but again, there are no requirements to perform any amount of it, or meet a certain standards.  Same for DDR, support to law enforcement, etc.  We CAN, but we aren't required to do any given amount.

4.  Prepare and execute a CD flying plan - no details on what the minimum amount of CD support is, but we are tasked to prepare, submit and exectute a plan AND get feedback from customers on how well we're doing.

5.  Cadet Program - we have to have one.  It doesn't have to be of any minimum size, nor do we have to provide X number of USAF recruits or anything else measurable.  We just have to have one, and it must contain certain components (like AE and leadership)

6.  IACE - we have to do it.

7.  AE - up front it says we are "encouraged" to have one.  But there are a few "semi-hard and fast tasks in here

        a.  Make it part of the cadet progam

        b.  Continue to support conferences and produce materials and maintain AE networks within the schools (no metrics on what materials, or how many schools or anything measurable)

8.  Chaplains Service - have to have one, needs to be modeled on USAF standards.


Then we have our specified support tasks

1.  Maintain a safe, airworthy  and ready aircraft fleet

2.  Protect and account for any property, materiel, services or funds anyone gives us.

3.  Provide certain financial data to support the budget and justify the execution of funds

4.  Have a functioning IG, compaints program, and a unit inspection program that meets certain standards

5.  Report safety incidents accidents according to certain procedures.

6.  Have a viable Flight Operations system (checkrides, pilot data, qualifications, etc) Report failed checkrides to USAF.

7.  Have a strategic plan to address future resource needs to the BOG


As far as I can tell, this is what we have to do.  Now some analysis

It,s going to be very hard for us to FAIL at our operational taskings.  Because there are few if any performance criteria.  We do what we can and we only get reimbursed for what we do.

It would be much easier for us to fail in our support (housekeeping) tasks.  Those are spelled out better, and have more way to screw up.


So, if we want more money given the current statement of work, it would be best to tie it to the support tasks.  Point out areas where our "housekeeping" isn't all that good, and how more funds would help.

If we want more money for ops tasks, it's going to be hard to justify, as we can't tie more money to anything measurable.


What I think, based on this, is that we need to enter into a new Statement of Work with USAF that holds us to some standard of operational performance.  That way we get graded on how well we do, and can use that to help justify additional funds to help us do better.

[Earhart1971]

More money is justifiable under the School Programs.

And its not going to solve, the operational missions, necessarily.
What I envision with, a professionally taught in school program is a pool of large units. Paid professional infrastructure, units that are larger, and active in support of disasters, and SAR, other things in the non school hours.

100 Man Units would be around, with support Seniors.

Would Seniors be more active, if the meeting night had about 4 Flights of Cadets to deal with?

Take those units and let them work, jobs at bases for say one week deployments.

I would not take 12 years olds out of school, but a 15 year old Cadet, with encampment out of the way, and a few stripes, thats a kid that will have his self esteem rocketed to the moon, working some intern job shadowing on a Military Base .

Base Civil Engineers, maybe some Flight Line, Base Ops, riding shotgun in the runway vacuum truck.

And I have talked to school principles whose eyes get wide with true enjoyment of the idea. Yes, take the kids out of school for a week, its educational, and they would have the time of their lives.

[SAR-EMT1]

More money is justifiable under the School Programs.

And its not going to solve, the operational missions, necessarily.
What I envision with, a professionally taught in school program is a pool of large units. Paid professional infrastructure, units that are larger, and active in support of disasters, and SAR, other things in the non school hours.

100 Man Units would be around, with support Seniors.

Would Seniors be more active, if the meeting night had about 4 Flights of Cadets to deal with?

Take those units and let them work, jobs at bases for say one week deployments.

I would not take 12 years olds out of school, but a 15 year old Cadet, with encampment out of the way, and a few stripes, thats a kid that will have his self esteem rocketed to the moon, working some intern job shadowing on a Military Base .

Base Civil Engineers, maybe some Flight Line, Base Ops, riding shotgun in the runway vacuum truck.

And I have talked to school principles whose eyes get wide with true enjoyment of the idea. Yes, take the kids out of school for a week, its educational, and they would have the time of their lives.

And yet, you talk about any activity like that at a College and the the Liberals come out of the woodwork like the roachers they are. 

[Dragoon]

More money is justifiable under the School Programs.

And its not going to solve, the operational missions, necessarily.
What I envision with, a professionally taught in school program is a pool of large units. Paid professional infrastructure, units that are larger, and active in support of disasters, and SAR, other things in the non school hours.

100 Man Units would be around, with support Seniors.

Would Seniors be more active, if the meeting night had about 4 Flights of Cadets to deal with?

Take those units and let them work, jobs at bases for say one week deployments.

I would not take 12 years olds out of school, but a 15 year old Cadet, with encampment out of the way, and a few stripes, thats a kid that will have his self esteem rocketed to the moon, working some intern job shadowing on a Military Base .

Base Civil Engineers, maybe some Flight Line, Base Ops, riding shotgun in the runway vacuum truck.

And I have talked to school principles whose eyes get wide with true enjoyment of the idea. Yes, take the kids out of school for a week, its educational, and they would have the time of their lives.

I'm sure school priniciples are happy to let USAF pay for field trips, and provide paid instructors to their schools for free.

But can you convince USAF that such a program brings them enough benefit to add it to the Statement of Work?  Remember, they've already got JROTC - why would they compete with themselves?

[Earhart1971]

The question is could the Air Force be sold on the Middle School Program and fund it?

I think the Air Force can understand the concept, if the right people were in front of the Air Force, and I think they would understand, if we graduate cadets from middle school to a HS AFROTC program, both programs benefit.

Then we ask, what level of funding you want to start with between 1 and 5 million?

If not we go to the Education people with the Grant money, and get a focused Grant just for CAP MSP.

Being on the inside, we might lose sight of how great the CAP Cadet Program is.

The CAP Cadet Program is equal to no other program, and getting kids at age 12 or 13, makes a big difference, than getting them at 15 or 16.

AFROTC is not THE cadet program, its missing the bulk of the CAP designed integrated total cadet program.

The Air Force watered it down, and left things out, and they have no volunteers or Airplanes, no special activities.

When a CAP cadet passes through AFROTC, they know it, they also know it when a CAP goes through the Academy.

We generally drop jaws where ever a Mitchell Award Cadet shows up, and participates in AFROTC.

But the total plan goes beyond the Cadet program.

CAP needs to elevated, to the level of National Guard or Reserve status.

The government is already searching for augmentation of the force, we can be the answer to a lot of that.

But the quickest way to 100,000 members is the large 100 to 200 Cadet/Seniors School Unit.

No sir, that's not a picture of an encampment formation, thats our Squadron meeting night!

[DNall]

I think the answer in genreal is no, the AF is not interested in a middle school program. Such a program may give kids a basis in AE before going on to another service's JROTC program, and that may ultimately bring them back to AF after they graduate or not. The CAP program may or may not feed JROTC units. It's NEVER in my experience been considered a competitor, just based on scale.

The objective of AFJROTC is to get people to go on in the AF - okay I know citizenship & some other crap, that's why the schools are involved, but AF spends penny one cause they get equal or greater return out of it. Still the great majority of that cost is borne by schools. What AF puts in is meager (the dif between teacher salary & what the instructor would be making on active duty, books, some supplies, etc)... the actual contribution per cadet is miniscule, and they're getting their return out of that. Both in that they supply a number of enlistees for the money & beacuse they get a larger percentage thru the program. Our performance is not so good & it's not due to lack of money, but programs spread too thin w/ low quality instructors.

Overall to the AF, getting kids at 12-13, before they get interested in cars/girls & drop off the face of the panet, is MUCH less important than getting kids at 15-16 & holding their interest a couple years till they can ship. That's the key.

Now, what you have to understand here, is they don't want CAP to be an AFJROTC like program. They got one of those already & the curriculum is suprisingly similiar for a reason. They want CAP to fill the gaps where JROTC can't go. That is for private school, home school, & small town kids. For the kids that are too busy playing sports & taking physics to take a blow off class like JROTC or spend the extra curricular time to be successful. hell, it's really hard to do all the things you need to get into the academy while playing at JROTC too. Not so bad if it's one night a week & maybe a wknd a month, that's doable.

The AF isn't going to fund our cadet program like they do theirs cause they don't need to. Yeah look an extra grand or two down to teh actual units for insignia & stuff like decent guidons & color guard gear would be nice, better support on uniforms would be nice. A computer projector & some some thumb drives would be nice. A basic office budget would be nice. I don't need 2grand a cadet though. If I went to full-time instructors rather than volunteers then I'd need more money, if I taught a full-time school program rather than volunteering on nights & wknds then I'd need more money, but that's not what we do & not what they need us doing. So they aren't going to pay for it.

If you want to talk about CPA getting more money, & we do need more, then that argument lies in ES/non-combat missions of the AF. That and reducing the administrative load at the tacitcal local unit level.

[Earhart1971]

DNall,

I skimmed your last post.

AFROTC is not in Middle Schools.

Not necessarilly going to hold my breath depending on Air Force Funding but the right pitch, the right people making the pitch, and there are some CAP Cadets in the hierarchy in the Air Force.

But I could sell the Air Force on it, I might even talk to your buddy on it first.

Ok, back to Middle Schools.

I can get private funding, but I prefer a National Launch.

There is a Federal Branch with a failed program that would bost us up, hey, risk 1 million for Gawds sake!

AFROTC is committed to High Schools, and it tougher to recruit cadets in High Schools, cars, extra curricular, sports and stuff, and a 16 year old is just about too old to start CAP.

Middle Schools are wide open, with limited electives like, art and chorus.

Plus, I would rather have a 12 year old to 14 year Old to work with.

Get them young, get them excited and they stay a CAP Cadet thru College.

CAP is the Strongest Cadet Program, its also a very fraternal organization.

CAP is moving that way slowly to the Middle Schools, although the funding is not straight forward.

Florida has about a half dozen or so programs now.

You think your buddy TD would have some insight?

[Guardrail]

AFROTC is committed to High Schools, and it tougher to recruit cadets in High Schools, cars, extra curricular, sports and stuff, and a 16 year old is just about too old to start CAP.

Actually, AFROTC is committed to colleges/universities.  AFJROTC is committed to high schools. 

Yes, I agree it is tougher to recruit high schoolers into the CAP cadet program, but I wouldn't say that 16 is too old to start the Cadet Program. 

CAP is the Strongest Cadet Program, its also a very fraternal organization.

No, the CAP Cadet Program is not a very fraternal organization at all.  Knights of Columbus is a fraternal organization. 

Fraternal means you're permitted to join because a parent was a member. 

[Earhart1971]

AFROTC in GENERAL, both AFJROTC and yada yada, don't get technicial with me this time of night, tired from the days work.

Same with Fraternal.

I mean, I keep in touch with my fellow cadets and buddies from Squadrons past.

[DNall]

But I could sell the Air Force on it, I might even talk to your buddy on it first.

You think your buddy would have some insight?

Good luck. Nobody cares what a former congressman thinks, even a connected one. I've tried & I know he'd spend a lot more money on CAP if it was there to get & could be justified.

There might be a hundred failed programs in the federal budget, but every one of them is someone's pet, and ever congressman pours over the budget looking for things to cut to fund his own pet projects. Fact is CAP is so spread out around the country & in such small numbers that it really doesn't matter what we think cause there's not enough of us to sway an election.

Far as the money, it isn't for free, they expect something in return & thet's meassured in terms of AF recruits. You know AF has the lowest recruiting budget, why you think that is? You know they get the most tech savey recruits that all the services would kill for. The AF is doing great right now on what they already give us. They're going to look at it as a margin of deminishing returns, both as you work with the younger range of cadets & when you invest further in to cadet programs beyond what you're already getting from AFJROTC, and they have to keep up JROTC in competition with the other services.

[Earhart1971]

But I could sell the Air Force on it, I might even talk to your buddy on it first.

You think your buddy would have some insight?

I've tried & I know he'd spend a lot more money on CAP if it was there to get & could be justified.

Fact is CAP is so spread out around the country & in such small numbers that it really doesn't matter what we think cause there's not enough of us to sway an election.

Yes, it the small numbers in CAP that needs to be corrected.

[Guardrail]

AFROTC in GENERAL, both AFJROTC and yada yada, don't get technicial with me this time of night, tired from the days work.

Same with Fraternal.

I mean, I keep in touch with my fellow cadets and buddies from Squadrons past.

Okay.  Sorry about that. 

[Guardrail]

I just found out something interesting...

Civil Air Patrol gets $9.5 Million
By News of the Force

"The Civil Air Patrol, Inc., Maxwell Air Force Base, Ala., is being awarded a $9,502,000 cooperative agreement contract. This modification will increase funding for FY 2007 Civil Air Patrol operations and maintenance and counter-drug activities, drug demand reduction and Air Force liaison office space and support as authorized by and 10 USC 9442(b), 10 USC 9444(a) and (b) and the FY2007 DoD Appropriations Act, Section 8022.

At this time, total funds have been obligated. This work will be complete in September 2007.
The 42nd Air Base Wing, Maxwell Air Force Base, Ala., is the contracting activity."

Has anyone else heard about this?

[Earhart1971]

I just found out something interesting...

Civil Air Patrol gets $9.5 Million
By News of the Force

"The Civil Air Patrol, Inc., Maxwell Air Force Base, Ala., is being awarded a $9,502,000 cooperative agreement contract. This modification will increase funding for FY 2007 Civil Air Patrol operations and maintenance and counter-drug activities, drug demand reduction and Air Force liaison office space and support as authorized by and 10 USC 9442(b), 10 USC 9444(a) and (b) and the FY2007 DoD Appropriations Act, Section 8022.

At this time, total funds have been obligated. This work will be complete in September 2007.
The 42nd Air Base Wing, Maxwell Air Force Base, Ala., is the contracting activity."

Has anyone else heard about this?

That is a very interesting development.

O and M funds are what CAP needs.