Idea: CAP Marksmanship Program

[Guardrail]

There's been some talk of ideas for a CAP Marksmanship program.  For those who aren't sure what I'm referring to, see "Idea: CAP Marksmanship Ribbon."  I think this is a great place to discuss ideas and figure out what will work best.

[DNall]

Again from the other thread... WE ALREADY HAVE A CAP MARKSMANSHIP PROGRAM run by CAP memebrs at CAP encampments, Wg level special activities, or local programs. Obviously it's more active in some places than others, but it does exist, using the NRA program as a basis & wearing their badges.

So what else are you talking about?

[Guardrail]

Again from the other thread... WE ALREADY HAVE A CAP MARKSMANSHIP PROGRAM run by CAP members at CAP encampments, Wg level special activities, or local programs. Obviously it's more active in some places than others, but it does exist, using the NRA program as a basis & wearing their badges.

So what else are you talking about?

DNall, CAP may have its own marksmanship program in Texas Wing, but it's not like that everywhere.  At my basic encampment, the marksmanship program was run entirely by the Army National Guard (the encampment was at a guard base).  The only CAP personnel on the range were cadets (firing) and some seniors to watch the cadets and make sure nothing went wrong.  The NRA program was used as a basis for earning the badges, but the program was run by the Army Guard.

CAP is allowed to participate in marksmanship programs sanctioned by DoD and the NRA, but it does not have its own national marksmanship program.  If it did, we'd probably have our own badges/ribbon.  Texas Wing has it's own marksmanship program, and that is outstanding, but it's not like that everywhere. 

[Pylon]

CAPR 52-16 already allows marksmanship training under established national programs and official outlets.  These people are already trained instructors and do what they do well.

For one, we don't need to reinvent the wheel to internalize a program that's readily available to CAP.  You'd be developing a program, needing to train CAP instructors (thus taking away from valuable training of members for skills that could actually be used in a CAP context), obtaining ridiculous amounts of additional liability insurance, and more.  For what? 

Second, what's wrong with utilizing the programs already approved for use by regulation and going with that?  Not good enough?  Join a rod & gun club.  There is no primary purpose in CAP, nor stated purpose within the cadet program, that would make instructing firearms such an important component of the program.  It's not a goal of the CP, and it's not a skill needed for AE or ES.  Simply put, it's an optional activity that units can engage in.  It's available if they want to seek it out.

CAP simply doesn't have the resources to develop and implement such a program, nor would using our resources in that manner even be prudent.  We've got many of pressing training matters, both for our cadet corps and our senior members.  Use what we already have available and be happy with that.

[DNall]

Well, now the primary, actually the only reason the cadet program exists is to produce a pool of well qualified candidates to be pilfered by the military.

However, it's silly to create an internal program when external ones exist, especially when those external programs have existing experienced instructors & youth programs w/ facilities & gear all over the place. The NRA program is fine. If anything Wgs should be pushed to greatly expand their participation & streamline the approval process for participants & units beyond encampment. It seems the problem is not with the program, but with the degree to which it's utilized. If there's a more appropriate program out there or a problem with NRA then that's fine, but I don't know that to be the case at this point.

[Major Carrales]

Well, now the primary, actually the only reason the cadet program exists is to produce a pool of well qualified candidates to be pilfered by the military.

Actually, that is not accurate.  I recall taking at test where this was listed as one of the incorrect answers.

From CAP.gov...

Through Civil Air Patrol's Cadet Program, young people develop leadership skills, investigate the fundamentals of aerospace science, acquire the habit of exercising regularly, solidify their character, and participate in exciting hands-on activities that prepare them to become responsible citizens.

Thus, the primary goal of the cadet program is to promote good citizenship.

[DNall]

Well, now the primary, actually the only reason the cadet program exists is to produce a pool of well qualified candidates to be pilfered by the military.

Actually, that is not accurate.  I recall taking at test where this was listed as one of the incorrect answers.

From CAP.gov...

Through Civil Air Patrol's Cadet Program, young people develop leadership skills, investigate the fundamentals of aerospace science, acquire the habit of exercising regularly, solidify their character, and participate in exciting hands-on activities that prepare them to become responsible citizens.

Thus, the primary goal of the cadet program is to promote good citizenship.

That's a nice broad answer that makes worried moms happy, but the AF doesn't sponsor this program cause there's not enough civics taught in school. They do so because they get something in return. That's true in the case of all our missions, and it's important to keep sight of. everything else is buying into the propaganda we put out to put people at ease so they don't think we're the hitler youth. Don't every fool yourself into thinking CAP gets a dime out of the goodness of the AF's heart though.

[MIKE]

CAPR 52-16 already allows marksmanship training under established national programs and official outlets.  These people are already trained instructors and do what they do well.

For one, we don't need to reinvent the wheel to internalize a program that's readily available to CAP.  You'd be developing a program, needing to train CAP instructors (thus taking away from valuable training of members for skills that could actually be used in a CAP context), obtaining ridiculous amounts of additional liability insurance, and more.  For what? 

Second, what's wrong with utilizing the programs already approved for use by regulation and going with that?  Not good enough?  Join a rod & gun club.  There is no primary purpose in CAP, nor stated purpose within the cadet program, that would make instructing firearms such an important component of the program.  It's not a goal of the CP, and it's not a skill needed for AE or ES.  Simply put, it's an optional activity that units can engage in.  It's available if they want to seek it out.

CAP simply doesn't have the resources to develop and implement such a program, nor would using our resources in that manner even be prudent.  We've got many of pressing training matters, both for our cadet corps and our senior members.  Use what we already have available and be happy with that.

The thing with the NRA program is that you can pretty much do it on the honor system and send away for the same certificate/medal.  If we are going to use it for CAP, we should require that it be done at an organized CAP activity under supervision and IAW CAPRs, in order for it to be worn on a CAP uniform.

[Major Carrales]

Well, now the primary, actually the only reason the cadet program exists is to produce a pool of well qualified candidates to be pilfered by the military.

Actually, that is not accurate.  I recall taking at test where this was listed as one of the incorrect answers.

From CAP.gov...

Through Civil Air Patrol's Cadet Program, young people develop leadership skills, investigate the fundamentals of aerospace science, acquire the habit of exercising regularly, solidify their character, and participate in exciting hands-on activities that prepare them to become responsible citizens.

Thus, the primary goal of the cadet program is to promote good citizenship.

That's a nice broad answer that makes worried moms happy, but the AF doesn't sponsor this program cause there's not enough civics taught in school. They do so because they get something in return. That's true in the case of all our missions, and it's important to keep sight of. everything else is buying into the propaganda we put out to put people at ease so they don't think we're the hitler youth. Don't every fool yourself into thinking CAP gets a dime out of the goodness of the AF's heart though.

The USAF knows that making Good Citizens creates good Airmen.  I would further say, by your reasoning, the AEROSPACE EDUCATION and CADET PROGRAMS would then...should then...be the primary goals of CAP.  

If it was the primary goal of the Cadet Program to create Airmen...then the fruition of the Cadet Program would be direct promotion to the USAF.  Right now, the completeion of the Mitchell gets you advanced promotion to E-3 (if I am not mistaken) but only after the basics.

If the USAF were using CAP CADET PROGRAM as an induction tool, a cadet coulf go right on it.  Since this does not happen and the CADET PROGRAM is not an "extended" boot camp...(plus actually realing the Stated Goal) one can summize that CITIZENSHIP is the goal and not direct entry to the Armed Forces.

Thus, using the premise that we should have a marksmanship program because it is "military training" is faulty.

Again, I support the idea of markmanship training...however, I cannot and will not try to find a false justification for it.  

Merely have an approved Civilian or NRA marksmanship program at the Unit level with Wing Level oversight and issue a National Level ribbon for completeing said programs.  It already exists...save for the ribbon.  You have designed one...not propose it up the actual channels.

[DNall]

Look, don't take what I'm saying out of context. I didn't say we should do it because i'ts military training. The NRA youth program is NOT miitary training. However 99% of cadets come to us wanting to be in the military, and we're supposed to take advantage of that to turn out a product.

I never said the cadet program is extended basic training, as inconsistently as it's conducted it doesn't approach that. There was a point where a mitchell award got you abreviated two-week basic training in which you just had to demonstrate teh skills & do some academics, but if you failed you'd be back with a regular class. That's not the case anymore, due in large part to that consistency issue as well as some logistics. We do however give cadets skills that allow them to excell in that training & much of what follows. The Boy Scouts give much the same civics program you're describing, but they aren't sponsored by the AF. We deliver something more in exchange for their support. In fact if I can go back to your statement of policy... leadership skills, aerospace science, physical fitness, character, exciting activities... I blieve you'll find those to be the priorities in making a pool of people for the military to recruit from. CAP doesn't at the decision point push a cadet to join the military. They have that option. We have merely equipped them for success in that option. If they choose to pursue a civilian path that's fine & those same skills will benefit them to a lesser degree, but the reason the AF is involved is to get theirs at that point. You just can't say that to parents or media.

The purpose of College ROTC is to make officers. It wouldn't exist w/o that purpose. They don't conduct that program for fun or as a public service. Thei mission statement however says (paraphrased): to create leaders for the AF (those that make the cut) & resposnible citizens for America (those that don't). Why do you think they bother to mention responsible citizens there when the program clearly only exists to make officers. I mean obviously the experience will be helpful to those that don't make it, but the program obviously isn't there for them. You think maybe it has something to do with PR?

Maybe AE for kids is a recruiting tool also, and for adults generates public support for a strong air/space force. Maybe ES is about picking up the slack to save AF soem money that can be turned to combat power? The AF isn't in this for fun, they have a purpose that has to show up in the black on the balance sheet at the end of the day or they're gone. And w/o their support we don't exist.

[Major Carrales]

You think maybe it has something to do with PR?

But, (sarcastic) I thought our programs were so "damaged" that the USAF was ashamed of us? 

We can't have it both ways.  Either the USAF loves us or hates us.

But on to brass tax...

Through Civil Air Patrol's Cadet Program, young people develop leadership skills, investigate the fundamentals of aerospace science, acquire the habit of exercising regularly, solidify their character, and participate in exciting hands-on activities that prepare them to become responsible citizens.

No where does this mention "making a cut" to be in the Air Force.  There is a built in recruiting tool, namely the Blue and Green uniforms cadet imploy and our auxiliary status of the USAF.  But your premise that that is the sole reason for our existance, to be a tool of the USAF for endoctination into their service...is a false one!

[DNall]

You think maybe it has something to do with PR?

But, (sarcastic) I thought our programs were so "damaged" that the USAF was ashamed of us? 

We can't have it both ways.  Either the USAF loves us or hates us.

But on to brass tax...

Nah, they love us, no where close to ashamed, bend over backwards to give us more support than we earn. Picture Tom Hanks end-o private ryan if you like. I love my little sister too, do anything for her, but I wouldn't let her take over structural design of a bldg for me & then let people in there. Loving us & trusting us or believing in us are not the same things. Not that they can't or shouldn't trust or believe in us, but they have some legit complaints we need to address & the rest is needing to educate & prove it.

Through Civil Air Patrol's Cadet Program, young people develop leadership skills, investigate the fundamentals of aerospace science, acquire the habit of exercising regularly, solidify their character, and participate in exciting hands-on activities that prepare them to become responsible citizens.

No where does this mention "making a cut" to be in the Air Force.  There is a built in recruiting tool, namely the Blue and Green uniforms cadet imploy and our auxiliary status of the USAF.  But your premise that that is the sole reason for our existance, to be a tool of the USAF for endoctination into their service...is a false one![/quote]
Niether does the college AFROTC missions statement mention making the cut, but that's what it's all about. We do other things, but the only reason they support us is for what we deliver to them. You never get something for nothing. I would call what I do indoctrination, to a degree anyway. Maybe orientation, familiarization, or exploration would be a better word, I don't know. The cadet program was created in WWII to create a pool of people from which the AAF could recruit. That's roughly what we do today. Some choose that path some don't, either way they benefit from the experience. If you want to say that as CAP your objectives are not in line w/ the reasons AF is involved with this, then that's fine, as long as your program keeps their objectives as a top priority the rest is semantics.

[Major Carrales]

Well then, Dennis, I guess you will join me in getting that particular question wrong on that particular test.

If you want to say that as CAP your objectives are not in line w/ the reasons AF is involved with this, then that's fine, as long as your program keeps their objectives as a top priority the rest is semantics.

Now, I'm wondering if the USAF objective are CAP's by default  as you suggest here.  Or, if the CAP may have its own CAP specific objectives.  Does the USAF mandate what out Cadet Program is to be or is it established by CAP?

Semantics?  By that usage every and all regulations would be relegated to mere sementics.  Simply put, the STATED GOALS and OBJECTIVES of the CAP cadet program are not to produce USAF AIRMEN, but rather to Produce good citizen sthat might choose to join society.  TO improve the overall social corpus form which a greater pool can gather.  AFROTC is that pool for officers and AFJROTC is a likely pool of enlisted and potentially officers.  CAP's current stated goals seem to support the former and are not as specific as the latter.

The cadet program was created in WWII to create a pool of people from which the AAF could recruit. That's roughly what we do today. Some choose that path some don't, either way they benefit from the experience.

WWII is a different time in which "total war" was the concept.  That does not apply to Modern CAP.  Do I think CAP should be promoting good Airmanship for the USAF...yes.  But what I think about how it "should work" (subjuntive) does not enter into or alter the fact of what it actually is and is stated to be. 

If you go around telling people that we are AFROTC in another guise or that we are a pool from which they recruit...by definition and/of policy you woudl be telling a lie.

[DNall]

Well then, Dennis, I guess you will join me in getting that particular question wrong on that particular test.

If you want to say that as CAP your objectives are not in line w/ the reasons AF is involved with this, then that's fine, as long as your program keeps their objectives as a top priority the rest is semantics.

Now, I'm wondering if the USAF objective are CAP's by default  as you suggest here.  Or, if the CAP may have its own CAP specific objectives.  Does the USAF mandate what out Cadet Program is to be or is it established by CAP?

Semantics?  By that usage every and all regulations would be relegated to mere sementics.  Simply put, the STATED GOALS and OBJECTIVES of the CAP cadet program are not to produce USAF AIRMEN, but rather to Produce good citizen sthat might choose to join society.  TO improve the overall social corpus form which a greater pool can gather.  AFROTC is that pool for officers and AFJROTC is a likely pool of enlisted and potentially officers.  CAP's current stated goals seem to support the former and are not as specific as the latter.

You're correct. CAP is free to set its own objectives, even when they conflict with the AF. The stated objectes are & must be to produce aerospace minded leaders for America & cannot list the military as a primary objective & retain both people & public support.

However, the AF pays the bills in a very big way & they by unwritten rule define who we are in all things. If CAP chooses to go against the AF in an argument, I would by default side with the AF against CAP, even if their position was that dismantleling CAP is what's best for the AF. If AF is in this, not just to build a pool of kids that like the AF, but that are mentally & physically capable of some of the more challenging positions available, then my objective as a cadet programs officer is to deliver them that while not corrupting the poor misguided souls who choose some other path.

AFJROTC has roughly the same stated objectives as us. Their purpose is to expose kids to potential (military) career options & give them the skills to succeed in those options if they choose to pursue them.

The cadet program was created in WWII to create a pool of people from which the AAF could recruit. That's roughly what we do today. Some choose that path some don't, either way they benefit from the experience.

WWII is a different time in which "total war" was the concept.  That does not apply to Modern CAP.  Do I think CAP should be promoting good Airmanship for the USAF...yes.  But what I think about how it "should work" (subjuntive) does not enter into or alter the fact of what it actually is and is stated to be. 

If you go around telling people that we are AFROTC in another guise or that we are a pool from which they recruit...by definition and/of policy you woudl be telling a lie.

WWII was NOT a total war, certainly not for America. There were no legions of 12yo Americans standing the line taking fire cause all the men were dead. Even after volunteers & the draft, the majority of physically & mentally qualified military aged men in America were not in the military, not by a long shot.

The issue then was that there were not enough qualified (educated, disciplined, motivated, etc) people in the population to fill all the pilot candidate slots, so sub-standard individuals were being accepted & put into the line to defend the country. The same is true today!!! Not necessarily just with pilot slots, but some enlisted jobs require an insane degree of intelligence, and on the officer side the best & brightest of our society can come to the military & make 40k or they can get a much less stressful 9-5 job for 80-100k with stock options. The purpose of programs like CAP is to capture the souls of those people & ignite in them a burning desire to serve. The cadet program was retained after WWII because the AF saw value in it as a source from which to recruit the best the country had to offer, because we make them that way,

[Capt Rivera]

For all the people who keep saying we can't say this or that to parents or the public, do you realize that this is a public discussion board? Someone looking for random CAP info who may or may not be interested in joining or finding out more about the people or type of people involved with their children can see everything here. re-read what you wrote and realize how bad you, a representative of CAP is potentially causing CAP to look.

[flyguy06]

Thus, the primary goal of the cadet program is to promote good citizenship.

Thats also the primary purpose of JROTC in High Schools

Tags - MIKE

[DNall]

For all the people who keep saying we can't say this or that to parents or the public, do you realize that this is a public discussion board? Someone looking for random CAP info who may or may not be interested in joining or finding out more about the people or type of people involved with their children can see everything here. re-read what you wrote and realize how bad you, a representative of CAP is potentially causing CAP to look.

Yes, but at some points a frank discussion of priorities is more important, and frankly any non-member that gets this far in I'm fine with them having open eyes going into the org. I don't lie to parents, I'm just tactful. Not like a military recruiter says, "yes mamn, we need you son to go fight awar for us," no he's busy talking about college benefits & some crap about a golf course on every base.

[swilliams]

Good idea

[Dragoon]

Thus, the primary goal of the cadet program is to promote good citizenship.

Thats also the primary purpose of JROTC in High Schools

Tags - MIKE

Cynicism on.

USAF funds JROTC as a recruiting tool.  CAP too, to a lesser extent..  It ain't in USAF's charter to "promote citizenship." And you don't need uniforms to do it, either.

But...ever since vietnam, you have to be very careful about recruiting efforts.  So yeah...it's all about citizenship....yeah.....

[DNall]

Thus, the primary goal of the cadet program is to promote good citizenship.

Thats also the primary purpose of JROTC in High Schools

Cynicism on.

USAF funds JROTC as a recruiting tool.  CAP too, to a lesser extent..  It ain't in USAF's charter to "promote citizenship." And you don't need uniforms to do it, either.

But...ever since vietnam, you have to be very careful about recruiting efforts.  So yeah...it's all about citizenship....yeah.....

Ex-actly....And AE is about exploring science & aviation careers, not promoting public support of an air & space budget or inspiring people the join the AF instead of failing out of Ranger School... and ES is about saving people, not money. It's a cold hard zero-sum world that ends in a bottom line.