Virginia Wing's "Wing Bank Solution"

[Eclipse]

I do believe that Phil has seen the manual for this program and fully understands how it works and I think we should give him credit for knowing his squadron and donors well enough to know how this will impact his squadron.  I was at a meeting the other day and about half of the squadrons said they don't have any funds.  This floored me.  How does anyone run a squadron without funds?  As a Composite squadron, I have to obtain rank, ribbons, various awards, and other incidentals at a cost of about $2,500.00 to $3,000.00 per year, not to mention Christmas Parties, etc.  I just don't see how any squadron runs without supplies, etc.  Perhaps these squadrons are really doing some creative financing to make it look like they don't have any funding.  Anyhow, I think we should give Phil the credit to know what is going on in his squadron and not bust his chops about his concerns.  By the way, I doubt if Wal-mart or the local army-navy or Vanguard will sit on your order while you obtain funding from Wing.  JMHO

I can see it, there's nothing in the program that says a unit needs to have a store, or fund activities.  If you're creative, everything could be self-funded, or activity specific.  If you meet in a donated space and have no utilities, there's not really any recurring expenses for a unit.

Have the members order their insignia from Vanguard like everyone else does.  There's no reason a cadet can't get on line once every few months and buy 2-3 grades above what they are today in anticipation.

And for a "store", have your members donate their old insignia, grade sleeves, etc., to
the store and give them out as needed/as available.  I've been /cc for two years and
we've got a ton of extra stuff from our own stashes - what the heck are you going to do with old grade when you move on?

Holiday parties are fine, but no one says the unit has to pay for it.  Sarex's, self-funded missions, bivouacs, should all be funded as-needed.  I just got wind today that a major event around here is sitting on 5-figures of surplus.

As noted ad nauseum, the program, as detailed, does not absolve a unit from managing its own finances, nor does it allow a Wing King to dip in at his leisure.

I HATE this idea, but assuming the worst in people is a great way to get the worst.

[BillB]

I find it hard for a Squadron pilot to pay for fuel for a Cadet O-ride. The FBO wants credit card payment or cash, and do not want to wait for a Wing to write a check.  It's the immediate need for funds for an activity or whatever that will cause problems. Also asking a cadet to order insignia from Vanguard and pay their $7 shipping can be a problem for many cadets. Squadrons need to have a petty cash fund to pay for the purchases that come up in day-to-day operations, and Wing holding the Squadrons funds can be a problem. Plus can you see the Wing Commander sitting down and signing sixy or seventy checks a week? (Florida has 66 Squadrons/Groups, so it is very possible)

[Matt]

[...]
Have the members order their insignia from Vanguard like everyone else does.  There's no reason a cadet can't get on line once every few months and buy 2-3 grades above what they are today in anticipation.
[...]

I agree with 95% of what you've said.  I'm intrigued on the topic of how the funding of the beast they call CAP is worked -- hence, I've been watching this thread.

The 5% I don't agree with is what I've quoted.  Don't get my wrong, I pour away enough money here, but to be honest -- no, we can't just jump online and pay.  I have a $20,000/yr college bill to pay... the $20 for insignia does add up (going 2-3 grades at a time) especially paying $3/gal for gas.

Plus, we aren't required to purchase any uniform items beyond our nametags and cutouts.

So, yes, respectfully, there are a couple reasons.

[Eclipse]

I find it hard for a Squadron pilot to pay for fuel for a Cadet O-ride. The FBO wants credit card payment or cash, and do not want to wait for a Wing to write a check.  It's the immediate need for funds for an activity or whatever that will cause problems. Also asking a cadet to order insignia from Vanguard and pay their $7 shipping can be a problem for many cadets. Squadrons need to have a petty cash fund to pay for the purchases that come up in day-to-day operations, and Wing holding the Squadrons funds can be a problem. Plus can you see the Wing Commander sitting down and signing sixy or seventy checks a week? (Florida has 66 Squadrons/Groups, so it is very possible)

The wings that are solvent and pay their bills on time have wing credit cards to pay for gas, but I don't have much time for pilots who complain it is too much expense to front cash to fly for free.  Without CAP, they'd be burning 3x's the amount per hour, and never get it back (ILWG = $35 an hour dry for a 172).   If you're an active, current pilot, CAP saves you money if you take advantage of the opportunities to use the airplane for all your currency.

And yes, the Wing WILL write a bazillion checks, that's the whole idea.  And hopefully they will get tired of it, see what a bad idea it is, and move us back to the way we're doing it today.

[Eclipse]

[...]
Have the members order their insignia from Vanguard like everyone else does.  There's no reason a cadet can't get on line once every few months and buy 2-3 grades above what they are today in anticipation.
[...]

I agree with 95% of what you've said.  I'm intrigued on the topic of how the funding of the beast they call CAP is worked -- hence, I've been watching this thread.

The 5% I don't agree with is what I've quoted.  Don't get my wrong, I pour away enough money here, but to be honest -- no, we can't just jump online and pay.  I have a $20,000/yr college bill to pay... the $20 for insignia does add up (going 2-3 grades at a time) especially paying $3/gal for gas.

Plus, we aren't required to purchase any uniform items beyond our nametags and cutouts.

So, yes, respectfully, there are a couple reasons.

Sorry, but whether its your $20k, or my kids college bill, I don't see how it is the responsibility of the Unit to provide insignia for individual members. Even in Squadron stores you should still be eating the cost of shipping, though the economies of scale would make the cost less.

And while you’re technically correct, and certainly we’ve beaten to death the idea
of what you can and cannot “require” a member to buy/wear, its silly to think you can be successful in CAP with a single set of FCU short sleeve blues and just buy grade as you progress.

Yes, CAP can be expensive, but so is everything these days.  If you want to play, you gotta pay.

[lordmonar]

Now I understand the feeling that once the wing gets their grubby little hands on the $723.46 that you worked hard washing cars and picking up trash after the air show to raise.

I also understand the felling that your local sponsors will stop donating to your squadron if the feel their money is going out of the local area.

But again....as I understand it.....that is not supposed to happen.  The money deposited by a squadron will still be there to be used by that squadron.

The only reason why local sponsors would know that their money was going into a wing level account would be because you are telling them that.

My question....are you guys trying to create an excuse to do something that you don't really want to do?

I mean....you go to wing and say..."hey my sponsor will pull their money because they think it will all get spent across the state".......and when wing asks "why would they think that?"....you respond "because that's what we are telling them."

Don't get me wrong.....I don't have 100% warm fuzzies on this program....I can see many, many problems and points of abuse.

But that does not mean the system cannot be made to work.  We in the field need to raise our concerns and work with the FN guys and insure all of our requirements are met.

If we need timely pay out for reimbursments....we need to work that....if we need a way to make local and/or internet purchase for supplies we need to work on that.

But what must happen, absolutely, with out any question, is that national must be able to account for all of CAP's money and that is the bottom line.  Any solution that does not meet that minimum goal is an automatic non-starter.

[mikeylikey]

Now I understand the feeling that once the wing gets their grubby little hands on the $723.46 that you worked hard washing cars and picking up trash after the air show to raise.

I also understand the felling that your local sponsors will stop donating to your squadron if the feel their money is going out of the local area.

But again....as I understand it.....that is not supposed to happen.  The money deposited by a squadron will still be there to be used by that squadron.

The only reason why local sponsors would know that their money was going into a wing level account would be because you are telling them that.

My question....are you guys trying to create an excuse to do something that you don't really want to do?

I mean....you go to wing and say..."hey my sponsor will pull their money because they think it will all get spent across the state".......and when wing asks "why would they think that?"....you respond "because that's what we are telling them."

Don't get me wrong.....I don't have 100% warm fuzzies on this program....I can see many, many problems and points of abuse.

But that does not mean the system cannot be made to work.  We in the field need to raise our concerns and work with the FN guys and insure all of our requirements are met.

If we need timely pay out for reimbursments....we need to work that....if we need a way to make local and/or internet purchase for supplies we need to work on that.

But what must happen, absolutely, with out any question, is that national must be able to account for all of CAP's money and that is the bottom line.  Any solution that does not meet that minimum goal is an automatic non-starter.

Agreed!

[Psicorp]

I guess the real question is best asked of members of the Virginia Wing.  How is this working out for you?   It is rather interesting that no one from Virginia Wing has been jumping up and down touting that it's the best thing since MREs.

It's human nature to not like change, especially if it's change for the sake of change ($). 

As far as unit supplies (grade insignia, etc), you have to think of it in terms of how everything else works...does the unit "have" do provide that?  Of course the unit doesn't.   When I was a C/CC, I had a job and went to college.  What I did was keep a box of insignia that I paid for (either the extras I bought as I had progressed or additional ones I bought as membership increased) and recycled them.  The first set of grade insignia a promoted cadet recieved were likely a set I once wore and they were free of charge.  Any additional were purchased by the cadet for $2 each (the money going toward the next supply purchase) on the condition that they would be turned back in and recycled upon the next promotion.  The number of insignia the cadet turned in is how many she/he got of the next grade up. Eventually, the squadron had plenty of everything.   Did I put my own money in?  Absolutely.  But I also declared every dime on my income taxes.  I did this not because it was required or expected of me, but because I wanted to.  And that is the difference.

[Ladyhawk]

I appreciate all the comments that this topic has generated - on both sides of the issue.  That's what freedom of speech is all about.

I would still like to hear from some of the folks who have already gone to the Wing Banking Solution.  How does this thing work in reality rather than just theory?

We've heard from only one person (Delaware Wing) who indicated that they were experiencing some slow turnarounds on funds requests.  The 2005 CAP membership number for Delaware was 346.  That makes it slightly smaller than the Group that I command.  I am not comforted by the implication of this for my Group or my Wing.

Virginia Wing is roughly the same size (membership wise) as Georgia Wing.  I really hope that there are some Virginia Wing members out there who would be willing to share their experience with this system.  I'd have a better idea as to how well this is going to work in my own Wing.

Thanks for the input!

[capchiro]

Again, the gut response is that the unit doesn't have to furnish rank, etc., but look at your own example, you said you put $2.00 into the kitty for the next supply purchase.. This is exactly the problem.  Your unit would not be able to maintain a fund to put the $2.00 into until the next supply purchase.  That $2.00 would have to be deposited by the unit finance officer, a record and copy of the deposit slip would have to be kept at the unit, a copy and paperwork would have to go to wing, wing would enter it into your squadron account, they would send you a form verifying that your squadron account at wing matches what you say it should at the squadron level, the squadron would eventually make a supply purchase, buying more rank from Vanguard, either putting it on the CC's personal credit card, requesting funds ahead of time to pay for it, or attempting to arrange with Vanguard some type of billing arrangement.  Again, copy of receipts would have to be kept at the squadron level and sent to wing, who would once again send out a form requesting verification of your account at wing with what you think should be there.   So, for the lack of individual squadron accounts, many hours of effort will go into tracking and spending your $2.00.  As far as the question of whether the unit should supply rank, etc., it would appear that the uniform manual says that the only uniform required of cadets is the short sleeve blue uniform and that any other uniforms will be either voluntary or supplied by the unit.  I think this makes it fairly clear that cadets should not have to expend money to be in uniform.  I am aware that they are required to provide their own shoes, but I am not sure what would happen if a cadet couldn't afford shoes?  I guess we would provide them if we had the money?  Or they could wait for a while as we waited for wing to cut loose our funds? This is a real problem as I have had foster children in my squadron and money was an issue to them.  This discussion seems to have two sides and I think the sides are divided by those that are in command positions of squadrons and those that are not really aware as to the hoops squadron commanders already have to jump through in an attempt to run a good program.  JMHO          

[Eclipse]

I don't agree with the level of bureaucracy you're insinuating.

The money goes to wing, and they write the checks.  The accounting and tracking of the money stays local in Quicken (now required, gents).  Wing will not be maintaining a per-transaction balance sheet of HOW the money is spent, only records of deposits and check requests.  Their records should be purely check #'s matching check requests.

39-1 says the only uniform we can require a cadet wear is the blue FCU, because it is supplied by NHQ.  That means we can't (on paper anyway) require a cadet to buy a service coat or BDU's.  It doesn't absolve the cadet of the responsibility of making sure the uniform is correct (updating grade, awards, ribbons, etc), nor does it mean that the cadet can get away with wearing the same pair of pants from 6th grade through college.

The first set is "free" the rest is on them, including the initial accessories, etc.

Our cadets are lucky as it is that they GET an FCU.  Join the BSA, or your local hockey team and see what they hand you walking in the door - a bill.

EDIT: Spellcheck!

[BillB]

Capt Williams....That is the most unrealistic post I've seen lately. You say cadet are not required to purchase BDU's, in that you are correct. But not purchasing BDUs means the cadet can't take part in minor things like Encampments, ES exercises, and like most squadrons require BDUs for at least one meeting per month. You indicate that the cadet has to buy rank and ribbons. Does this mean your Squadron doesn't award the ribbon to the cadet, and hand him the new rank (while turning in the old rank)? Several years ago, National figured out it costs a cadet $1000 to go through the cadet program. That's just the cost of activities and uniforms (rank insignia and ribbons were not included since most squadrons maintain a stock for cadets).
The majority of Squadrons maintain a stock of blues and often BDUs obtained from DRMO, AFJROTC or a University AFROTC unit. So uniforms after the initial free cadet uniform is no problem with old uniforms turned in as the cadet outgrows them.
But it is impossible for a cadet to go through the cadet program with only a blue uniform.

[Psicorp]

In all honesty, things were a little different in the 1990s than they are today.  If the question of finances ever came up, I would be able to argue that the vast majority of the unit's supplies belonged to individual members.    What I did was essentially fund/ran the cadet insignia/ribbon cabinet.  The $2 the cadets contributed went right back into the next order.  When I turned 21, everything cadet oriented I had was donated to the squadron.  The cadets' accomplishments and achievements were of more concern to me at the time than pouring over every rule/regulation on proper finances.  Of course, there was the issue of very limited Senior Member support at the time.

On the issue of cadet minimum uniforms, CAPR 39-1 says that cadets are required to have the basic minimum uniform, which consists of:

                       "Minimum Basic Service Uniform. Male: Short-sleeve, light blue shirt; dark blue trousers; blue belt/silver buckle, blue flight cap; black shoes, and socks. Insignia: CAP nameplate, shoulder patch, collar/lapel insignia, embroidered epaulet sleeve, and flight cap emblem.    Female: Short-sleeve light blue blouse; Dark blue skirt or slacks; flight cap; neutral nylon hose; black shoes; black handbag.   Insignia: CAP nameplate, shoulder patch, collar/lapel insignia, embroidered epaulet sleeve, and flight cap emblem."

This obviously goes beyond what is given out with the CFU (when it's available).   Add all that up and we're talking some serious "buckage" if you suddenly get an influx of new cadets.   What I have seen done in the past is that these items were provided/donated to the cadet once she/he earns the Curry Award.  Until then, jeans and a t-shirt were thier uniform.  However, if you read the description carefully, the shirt and slacks/skirt are mandated to be A.F. items. That cuts the cost down considerably since even Walmart carries items that are similar.  Just a thought.

[MIKE]

It's called Come And Pay for a reason.  CAP has set a minimum standard which all members are expected to meet.

1-5. Uniform Combinations. Various combinations of CAP uniforms are authorized in order to allow
for various climatic conditions, availability of uniforms, etc., but no member is obligated to equip
himself/herself with all or even a major part of the combinations described in this publication. Members
will equip themselves with the basic uniform. The minimum basic uniforms for male and female cadets
and senior members, which will satisfy most occasions, are listed below. Members may obtain and wear
the additional uniform items authorized in this publication on an optional basis. Uniform clothing may
be altered to improve fit. However, alterations must not change the intended appearance of garment as
designed. It is the member's personal responsibility to equip himself/herself with a proper uniform.
Commanders may assist if they have the capability, through use of unit funds and/or donations or by
acquiring surplus uniforms. Cadets are required to have the minimum basic uniform. A commander
may require cadets to wear other optional uniform items only if the purchase is voluntary or if the
uniform is supplied without expense to the cadet. The omission of a specific item or appearance standard
does not automatically permit its wear.

Emphasis added.

[Eclipse]

Capt Williams....That is the most unrealistic post I've seen lately. You say cadet are not required to purchase BDU's, in that you are correct. But not purchasing BDUs means the cadet can't take part in minor things like Encampments, ES exercises, and like most squadrons require BDUs for at least one meeting per month. You indicate that the cadet has to buy rank and ribbons. Does this mean your Squadron doesn't award the ribbon to the cadet, and hand him the new rank (while turning in the old rank)? Several years ago, National figured out it costs a cadet $1000 to go through the cadet program. That's just the cost of activities and uniforms (rank insignia and ribbons were not included since most squadrons maintain a stock for cadets).
The majority of Squadrons maintain a stock of blues and often BDUs obtained from DRMO, AFJROTC or a University AFROTC unit. So uniforms after the initial free cadet uniform is no problem with old uniforms turned in as the cadet outgrows them.
But it is impossible for a cadet to go through the cadet program with only a blue uniform.

Check other threads for the arguments for and against requiring cadets to wear anything but SS blues.
The letter of 39-1 would say we would have to allow a cadet to participate in anything but ES field work in that FCU unless the unit can provide the uniform - that is also unrealistic, and has been argued ad museum here and on CadetStuff.
I agree it is unrealistic to expect a cadet to be successful with a single service dress uniform, but it is equally unrealistic to expect the unit to foot these costs.

Of course we award ribbons and grade, but we, like many units, have a historical stock of grade which has been built up over the years, and we have a communal Officer store for the adult members (we're not Seniors Members anymore, remember that!).

We have some stock left over from CC's past who had no issue just dropping money in the pot and buying stuff, hoping to get it back "someday", - when that stuff is gone, its gone.   We ask members nicely to donate old insignia, etc., to the pot, but I'm certainly not going to tie up hundreds of dollars in unit funds to back fill it. 

When new members join, we set them up with a "kit" of tapes, insignia, nametags, hat, whatever - costs about $50 per cadet.  That is handled by my CDC and never hits the unit funds, so is not part of this mix. Its just straight convenience for new members. 
It hasn’t become a burden for him, but if it does we'll likely just put together a punch list of stuff and point them to the vendors. This is a program about taking initiative, figuring out the uniform is not rocket science if you avail yourself of resources.  Heck, we could just have a uniform night and the new cadet and mom & dad can sit on our computer with their own credit cards.  These are not the days of “call the depot” with URLS and shopping carts, things are two clicks away.

$1000 to run through the cadet program?  What a BARGAIN!!! Assuming you join at twelve and ascend at 18, that's less that $170 a year, though I would really like to know what costs them $1000, and if that includes activities, you can't count that in this discussion.

Try playing hockey for 6+ years for under $1000 total.

This is life, participation costs money.  There will always be exceptions who need help, but the majority of members have no issue stepping up if they choose to. Its also not a zero-sum game.  Cadets and Officers have a significant amount of unique opportunities, and if they work the plan correctly, CAP can actually save them money in the form of reimbursed flying and scholarships.

[twe]

Re:  - costs about $50 per cadet.  That is handled by my CDC

How do you avoid the rule against petty cash funds?

twe

[Eclipse]

This is not petty cash nor connected to the unit's finances.

He simply orders the stuff the cadets need and hands the charge recipt to the parents.  They reimbursie him.  No gain, no pain.

But as he gotr burned at least once on this, I think we'll likely just send an email w/ URLs or completed shopping carts and let them handle it.

[ZigZag911]

I find it hard for a Squadron pilot to pay for fuel for a Cadet O-ride. The FBO wants credit card payment or cash, and do not want to wait for a Wing to write a check.  It's the immediate need for funds for an activity or whatever that will cause problems. Also asking a cadet to order insignia from Vanguard and pay their $7 shipping can be a problem for many cadets. Squadrons need to have a petty cash fund to pay for the purchases that come up in day-to-day operations, and Wing holding the Squadrons funds can be a problem. Plus can you see the Wing Commander sitting down and signing sixy or seventy checks a week? (Florida has 66 Squadrons/Groups, so it is very possible)

Some wings have wing credit cards and/or standing accounts with the main FBOs in their areas of operation for flight fuel.

Petty cash accounts are specifically forbidden by CAP regulations.

Unit dues, with wing approval, are permitted, and offer one possible solutions; another is to have individuals pay the unit  for items as they order them (with a cash receipt issued, of course).

[twe]

What my squadron does for cadet insignia, hats, belts, ties, name plates&tapes, etc.:

(1) Cadet pays supply and gets receipt.  Money goes into "change box" (not "petty cash")
(2) Supply officer orders from AAFES or wherever with squadron check
(3) About once/month, cash from change box is deposited to squadron bank account.

We NEVER pay anything out of that supply change box (except to give change),
so calling it a "change box" is not just some name fiddle to satisfy a CAPR.

We slip the AAFES order (with squadron check) under the AAFES door and pick
up the filled order the next week.  Result: one week turn-a-round. It helps to be
on USAFA with AAFES just 200 feet away.

The new scheme of "wing is the banker" with a one week delay (if all goes right)
to issue a check, will obviously have a negative impact on our quick response.

[Pylon]

The new scheme of "wing is the banker" with a one week delay (if all goes right)
to issue a check, will obviously have a negative impact on our quick response.

I'm not a Finance Officer, but wouldn't it keep the same expediency you're used to if you simply get a money order with the cash the cadets have deposited?  Place the certified money order with the AAFES order form and voila!  Of course the M.O. may cost you 50 cents to a buck, but you guys are already avoiding any shipping charges, so it's not that big of an expense.

Any money remaining from your deposits after the M.O. has been cut, gets deposited into squadron funds.

Just a thought.