Military saluting CAP?

[Майор Хаткевич]

You are correct. It is just what CAP does. At Least in the PA wing. Since we are civilians and they are military we act as if they are superior to us. You are correct though there is no written statement.

It is not what "CAP does".  You are fundamentally misunderstanding what is happening around you.

There's a difference between fundamental respect for some one's service (whatever form it takes), and general deference to those in the military.

Exactly because of the position they are in we treat them as superior officers.

No we do not. There are plenty of scum bags in the military. They are people, just like you and me. We respect them for their service, but beyond saluting their grade (when higher than ours), we do not owe them anything in terms of respect. As the famous quote goes: "You salute the grade, not them man."

[lordmonar]

I was reading a story on the Internet today about a man in the military. He was walking and a CAP colonel stopped him and told him he had to salute her. He said he was not required to because she is an auxiliary organization of the Air Force and did not actually count as being in the military.  They began to cuss each other out. Which one of them do you think was right? I personally believe the military man was correct. I believe she should had saluted him even though she out ranked him. When in that situation in both shoes, as a CAP colonel and a military man, what would you do?

As soon as someone is sworn into the armed forces they immediately out rank every CAP member. Even a private fresh out of basic training out ranks a Cadet Colonel. Simple as that

NO.  Thanks for playing.

So your insisting that a Cadet Colonel would out rank lets say a captain in the army? If that's what your thinking then Sergeant you are highly wrong.

I am not insisting on anything....other than your statement was wrong.  You see where you are failing....is that your basic premise and assumptions are just not correct.  CAP and the real military are not in the same chain of command....ergo neither outranks the other.  According to CAP regulations and customs......we CAP honor the USAF's customs and courtesies..by saluting their officers....but that is not the same as them outranking us.

NOW.....as for your attitdude.....I'm about to put my Sergeant Hat on now, and I don't usually do that here on CT.......You need to slow your role there cadet.  My name is Master Sergeant Patrick Harris and I have been there and done that......I have even been known to be wrong on occasion......but you don't want to get on my bad side.....so ammend your attitude.  Thanks for Playing.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I was reading a story on the Internet today about a man in the military. He was walking and a CAP colonel stopped him and told him he had to salute her. He said he was not required to because she is an auxiliary organization of the Air Force and did not actually count as being in the military.  They began to cuss each other out. Which one of them do you think was right? I personally believe the military man was correct. I believe she should had saluted him even though she out ranked him. When in that situation in both shoes, as a CAP colonel and a military man, what would you do?

As soon as someone is sworn into the armed forces they immediately out rank every CAP member. Even a private fresh out of basic training out ranks a Cadet Colonel. Simple as that

NO.  Thanks for playing.

So your insisting that a Cadet Colonel would out rank lets say a captain in the army? If that's what your thinking then Sergeant you are highly wrong.

I am not insisting on anything....other than your statement was wrong.  You see where you are failing....is that your basic premise and assumptions are just not correct.  CAP and the real military are not in the same chain of command....ergo neither outranks the other.  According to CAP regulations and customs......we CAP honor the USAF's customs and courtesies..by saluting their officers....but that is not the same as them outranking us.

NOW.....as for your attitdude.....I'm about to put my Sergeant Hat on now, and I don't usually do that here on CT.......You need to slow your role there cadet.  My name is Master Sergeant Patrick Harris and I have been there and done that......I have even been known to be wrong on occasion......but you don't want to get on my bad side.....so ammend your attitude.  Thanks for Playing.

I personally would be running to hide behind hills, and digging in for the mortar strikes. 

[Eclipse]

Exactly because of the position they are in we treat them as superior officers.

No, we treat them as officers, who are assumed to be educated gentlemen and of the same general mindset,
and regardless have assumed some responsibility for the protection of our freedoms.  That, in and of itself,
does not give them any inherent authority over CAP.

Not everyone in the military is an officer, BTW.

[PHall]

I was reading a story on the Internet today about a man in the military. He was walking and a CAP colonel stopped him and told him he had to salute her. He said he was not required to because she is an auxiliary organization of the Air Force and did not actually count as being in the military.  They began to cuss each other out. Which one of them do you think was right? I personally believe the military man was correct. I believe she should had saluted him even though she out ranked him. When in that situation in both shoes, as a CAP colonel and a military man, what would you do?

As soon as someone is sworn into the armed forces they immediately out rank every CAP member. Even a private fresh out of basic training out ranks a Cadet Colonel. Simple as that

No. We're civilians. Nobody in the military "out ranks" us because we're not in the military.

So since were civilians i can go up to a Private in the army in a CAP uniform and spit on him? That is a definite NO.

Yeah, you could do that. And you would be committing the crime of assault. Is this worth going to jail for?

[NCRblues]

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury...I mean captalk. We are getting professionally trolled. Take a look at the 2 threads that red_sox's is currently posting in. Both are clearly meant to stir up trouble. Please, do not feed the trolls.

[Майор Хаткевич]

His other topics make me think new, young cadet more than a troll driveby.

[SarDragon]

His other topics make me think new, young cadet more than a troll driveby.

Exactly. He's 12 yo, and lives in central Pennsylvania in a rural area. I've been there, and many of the attitudes are very provincial.

[LGM30GMCC]

I spoke about this kind of an issue during a recent RSC. The whole section on this went on for...awhile (you can ask some of the students) and this is what I see it boiling down to.

As a military officer who is also a CAP officer I understand what you are trying to convey (respect/admiration, etc) and appreciate the thought. I really do. It's good to know there are people there that recognize the sacrifices of the military.

However, if someone is not a member of CAP they don't necessarily understand exactly what you are trying to convey. To them, you may come across just like the little kids that salute us. Cute...but don't really fully understand the custom behind it.

The key to Customs and Courtesies is that they are simply inherent. You don't 'think about them' on a day to day basis. If an airman salutes me, I return the salute, greet them, and go back to thinking about whatever I was thinking about before they walked up to me. (It may not be something earth shattering like 'How will the decisions I am going to make today going to affect the security of the United States?' it is often 'Hmm...what do I want for lunch today. I don't know...I'll make up my mind when I get in my car...') And ya know what? That Airman (and please correct me if I'm wrong MSgt Harris) is probably thinking 'Oh! Officer...Good [Whatever] Sir' and then going back to thinking about what they want to have for lunch today.

I couldn't tell you how many salutes I receive a day (I would say at least one going through the gate) because I don't think about it. However, the salute that is missed or rendered improperly does stick out in my mind...and this is key...because it is strange. It is out of the ordinary. My brain will ping on that and start to ask questions.

That's what happens when a CAP member salutes someone who ordinarily wouldn't receive a salute from an AD officer of similar rank to the CAP member. It's strange and it sticks out. And they may start thinking you don't know what you are doing and can't get something as basic as C+C down. You don't want that. You don't want the question ever asked in the first place.

If you look like (not meaning necessarily dressed the same, I mean neat, clean, (long hair whatever) and carrying yourself in a proud/respectful manner), sound like (use the same types of expressions), and act like (professionally, AF-like C+C and whatnot) an Air Force person, then they are quickly going to look past all that and really look at what you are doing. This is (generally) a good thing  for CAP.

Same thing if an AF member salutes you when they are not required. Think of the people that say 'Well I would correct them because they need to know they don't have to.' It only proves the point...they may know they aren't required to and are choosing to as a way of showing respect. Maybe they were a former cadet, maybe they are a current member, who knows? Just return it and carry on and it will simply pass from their mind and they will go back about their life. If they stop and ask a question (most won't) you can certainly answer it but should turn it to a discussion about what CAP is really about, not just the C+C requirements, as quickly as possible.

If some military member is being a jerk, DO NOT ENGAGE THEM ON IT. You'll only feed their disgust with the organization. If they say something miserable to a superior or junior, yeah it bites, but let them press on. If you're lucky, there will be someone around who is a member of both organizations, or aware of both and let the military guy, in military uniform, engage them on it at an appropriate time.

The closer our customs and courtesies are to the USAF members, the more forgetable they become. It may seem strange, but that's actually a good thing. You want them to have a much stronger impression than 'Well they can salute well', you want them focused on the positives of our mission. And if it's consistently done the proper or 'same' way as the USAF folks then when some miserable person says something bad about CAP the person being addressed is likely to go back through encounters in their mind and go 'I've never had an issue with them' and take what the miserable person is saying with a grain of salt. That's the best defense against them we can possibly have.

So, long story short:
It is better for C+C to mirror our big brother service. Salute officers of higher rank. Don't salute those of same or lower. If someone salutes you when not required, return it and move on. If someone says something miserable or mean about it indirectly or to your face, do not engage them. If it's abusive, find an appropriate person to address it with as there are different issues at play.  And please don't make a mess that folks have to clean up.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

We ARE required to salute officers of a higher grade/rank...our ranks are not part of the military rank system but work "in parallel" to them.  Therefore, I am required to salute anyone above the grade of O-3.  However, an O-2, O-1 or any grade of warrant officer/NCO/enlisted are not required to salute me, but as the regs say, they are not prohibited from doing so if they wish.  So the situation is not an equal one.  A military officer can reprimand us for not saluting but we cannot reprimand a military member for the same.

The Coast Guard Auxiliary takes it even further.  Even their National Commodore, James Vass, is required to salute the newest Warrant Officer 1, despite the fact that he wears office (grade) insignia of a Vice Admiral; however, Auxiliarists do not salute one another.



I saluted a Canadian Captain at an airshow when I was a First Lieutenant.  He just nodded and returned the salute.

My first Squadron CC, who later became a Wing CC, told me that when he is at Maxwell saluting is about all he gets done, due to the large contingent of foreign personnel taking training there.  He said "I've seen Germans, Canadians, French, Australians, etc. and since I don't know a lot of their grade insignia, I just salute even though I might be saluting a Corporal."

An AFRES First Lieutenant saluted me at an airshow years ago even though we were the same grade level.  I told him, "you're not required to do that," and he said, "I know, I just wanted to show respect for a fellow officer."

And really, that's the gist of it: showing respect.  It's got nothing to do with subservience, idolatry, etc.

[LGM30GMCC]

Just hope I didn't confuse you or anyone else.

Yes - Salute officers of higher rank (it's required)

I am saying to you as one of the USAF/CAP dual-hatted folks...please don't do what the USCG AUX does. It's not required and it looks strange to the majority of USAF-only personnel. The less CAP looks strange to them, the better! (Don't confuse distinctive with strange here please!)

Even in the G+W, if you follow the above, the G+W will pass through the memory a little faster. (Strange...but more into the realm of 'I don't understand what I just saw...but I'm not going to worry about it. I'm going to go back to thinking about my lunch!)

[jeders]

I was reading a story on the Internet today about a man in the military. He was walking and a CAP colonel stopped him and told him he had to salute her. He said he was not required to because she is an auxiliary organization of the Air Force and did not actually count as being in the military.  They began to cuss each other out. Which one of them do you think was right? I personally believe the military man was correct. I believe she should had saluted him even though she out ranked him. When in that situation in both shoes, as a CAP colonel and a military man, what would you do?

As soon as someone is sworn into the armed forces they immediately out rank every CAP member. Even a private fresh out of basic training out ranks a Cadet Colonel. Simple as that

NO.  Thanks for playing.

So your insisting that a Cadet Colonel would out rank lets say a captain in the army? If that's what your thinking then Sergeant you are highly wrong.

I am not insisting on anything....other than your statement was wrong.  You see where you are failing....is that your basic premise and assumptions are just not correct.  CAP and the real military are not in the same chain of command....ergo neither outranks the other.  According to CAP regulations and customs......we CAP honor the USAF's customs and courtesies..by saluting their officers....but that is not the same as them outranking us.

NOW.....as for your attitdude.....I'm about to put my Sergeant Hat on now, and I don't usually do that here on CT.......You need to slow your role there cadet.  My name is Master Sergeant Patrick Harris and I have been there and done that......I have even been known to be wrong on occasion......but you don't want to get on my bad side.....so ammend your attitude.  Thanks for Playing.

I personally would be running to hide behind hills, and digging in for the mortar strikes. 

*Grabs some popcorn and gets comfy* These fireworks are gonna be good.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

My money's on this guy Harris. Those sergeant stripes were earned, pals.

[AngelWings]

My money's on this guy Harris. Those sergeant stripes were earned, pals.

Bu-but, I heard the other guy was the Space Shuttle Door Gunner in the elite 67th Chairbone Division!!!

[Persona non grata]

Do not  let any person fool you, all space shuttle door gunners have been laid off!

[Eclipse]

Do not  let any person fool you, all space shuttle door gunners have been laid off!

They were all let off just before the last landing!

[Ford73Diesel]

The Coast Guard Auxiliary takes it even further.  Even their National Commodore, James Vass, is required to salute the newest Warrant Officer 1, despite the fact that he wears office (grade) insignia of a Vice Admiral; however, Auxiliarists do not salute one another.

off topic....

The CG has Warrant officer 1's?

[Майор Хаткевич]

The Coast Guard Auxiliary takes it even further.  Even their National Commodore, James Vass, is required to salute the newest Warrant Officer 1, despite the fact that he wears office (grade) insignia of a Vice Admiral; however, Auxiliarists do not salute one another.

off topic....

The CG has Warrant officer 1's?

I think he meant RM.

[Garibaldi]

OK...time to weigh in.

During my 3 days at LRAFB, there were a plenitude of AD Airmen and officers, Marines and a few Soldiers walking around. The Marines did not acknowledge our existence. The Soldiers called us "Sir" or "Ma'am" as they saw fit but no salutes were exchanged. The AD Airmen and officers treated us as if we were one of them. Salutes were given, salutes were returned. At the mess hall, our cadets held the doors open for all AD. They were pleased that we had a bunch of respectful cadets. I think it had to do with the base commander being such a supporter of CAP. Many officers and senior NCOs had at least a passing knowledge of CAP.

[Walkman]

The AD Airmen and officers treated us as if we were one of them.

Thank you for sharing that. My unit's Ops O is an USAFR O3 and when he talks about our place within the larger AF family, its in these kinds of terms. It's nice to hear the same sentiment here on CT, where it's regularly passed around that we're the proverbial red-headed step-child (no offense to gingers or step children) who is barely tolerated by Big Blue.