Military saluting CAP?

[abdsp51]

If there is any legitimacy to this and there may be the CAP member was in the wrong to demand a salute, however the AF member was wrong in not politely disengaging from it and sounds like it was an airman that did it.

Now I have been saluted while wearing CAP blues and just smiled and returned it, most do not know any better.  I know most of the guys working the gate and I get a few looks and leave it at that. 

To echo what has been said nothing is required for the military folks to salute if they do they do if not, then don't sweat it.

[Major Lord]

There was a thread on this quite some time ago, and our CAWG "leadership"  people started writing angry memos and generally crying like little poofters. Its an urban myth as far as I am concerned; No parties or first hand witnesses, and the story has changed a number of times. I think its right up there with the Cadet who was killed at encampment by drinking coke and eating Mentos, that is to say, its a complete load of.....crock.

Major Lord

[AngelWings]

The big thing here is that no matter what, you're going to get nowhere with demanding a salute. It is like demanding respect. While certain ranks and positions require certain C&C's, others are normal you get what you give respect. The Major was a complete tool, and hopefully was taken out of CAP quickly. The airman was an idiot for engaging an idiot. As my dad says, "if you try to argue with idiots, they bring you down to their level and beat you up with experience". The airman would've been better off if they politely responded, keeping a level of professionalism, and gotten the Majors name and unit, and reported them to their squadron leadership.

[spacecommand]

The topic about the Major if true has already been discussed before.  Sounds like that AFtimes bulletin board article has it's story changed now, the CAP "Major" is now a "Colonel" and the disagreement has turned into "cussing at each other".   

Next year the story will be changed to a CAP General, and the cussing would be "full out brawl outside the officer's club".

[cap235629]

one of the most humbling experiences I have ever had was last year at our Wing Encampment.  I am required by my girth to wear BBDU's.  I did however have a high and tight and an impeccable uniform during encampment.  While we were waiting in line at the dining facility a command chief exited the facility, saw me, snapped a parade ground perfect salute and wished me a very good afternoon.  There was absolutely no way I could have been confused for a commissioned officer.  I was humbled to say the least.  I like to think that I received the salute because he respected the job I was doing.

[Private Investigator]

Because were not being sent over seas to fight the war. They are risking lives, we are saving them.

This might be surprising but...

I have been on active duty for 5 years and have never been sent overseas. About the riskiest thing I have had to do is drive on icy roads in MT during the winter.

I read the bio of a recently retired Army General (O-10) with 40 years active duty. Two years in Germany, one year in Korea and the last twenty years at the Pentagon. A true administrator. Not judging, just saying  :angel:

[Private Investigator]

There was absolutely no way I could have been confused for a commissioned officer. 

Not even a Canadian officer?   

[SarDragon]

Probably made Colonel at around 22. Where else are you going to put him after he puts on stars?

[wuzafuzz]

The topic about the Major if true has already been discussed before.  Sounds like that AFtimes bulletin board article has it's story changed now, the CAP "Major" is now a "Colonel" and the disagreement has turned into "cussing at each other".   

Next year the story will be changed to a CAP General, and the cussing would be "full out brawl outside the officer's club".

From there it will escalate to a CAP General demanding respect from a Klingon Warrior, starting an interstellar war.  Wikipedia will declare it true.  The Internet is never wrong. Right?

[RRLE]

The topic about the Major if true has already been discussed before.  Sounds like that AFtimes bulletin board article has it's story changed now, the CAP "Major" is now a "Colonel" and the disagreement has turned into "cussing at each other". 

We don't know who changed the rank. The OP did not directly quote or link to the article. For all we know the OP got it wrong. The quote of the orginal article on the first page of the thread uses the rank of Major in the story.

So it appears that a denizen of CAPTalk, not the 'internet' changed the story.

The CAP leadership at the time seemed to think the incident was real.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

The CAP leadership at the time seemed to think the incident was real.

I remember this, and this latest "reframing" just sounds like a rehash with changed ranks and gender.

I find the truth factor in this to be extremely dubious...it sounds like someone stirring it just to make it stink and/or as "justification" for "de-militarising" CAP even further than it already is.

I joined CAP in '93, just after the punitive imposition of berry boards, and it was hammered into my head from Day One about not expecting, or trying to get, salutes from military personnel.  It was presented to me that trying to do so was somewhere on the level of blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

I don't think CAP has ever recovered from the actual instances that contributed to the berry board imposition, and every time a rumoured transgression takes place, CAP leadership screams blue grey murder.

I have never personally seen an incident of this sort take place, nor have I heard about it other than in apocryphal stories like this.  I would guess most on this board have not either.

If the bit about cussing one another out is true (and I thoroughly doubt it), the CAP "officer" should get a Do Not Pass Go, Do Not Collect $200 2B, and the military member should get at least a Letter Of Counselling (or equivalent) or an Art. 15.

I couldn't tell you when the last time was I actually encountered a military member in a situation that would be appropriate for saluting, because much of the time it's been indoors at a meeting facility or MCSS, in which case casual greetings are usually exchanged.

My experience is that when I have gotten salutes (and I don't keep count), it's mostly from the Army, least from the Air Force, and others somewhere in the middle.

[mikebank]

I agree with this post.

And if, for some unknown reason, a military member salutes a CAP member, DO NOT MAKE POINT OF TELLING THEM THEY ARE WRONG OR DO NOT HAVE TO salute CAP members. Just smartly return the salute, give an appropriate greeting, and carry on.

Some military personnel actually respect CAP members, some do not know they are not required to salute CAP personnel, and some automatically salute any officer grade, regardless of the uniform it's on.

[abdsp51]

[quote author=RRLE link=topic=15777.msg284474#msg284474

If the bit about cussing one another out is true (and I thoroughly doubt it), the CAP "officer" should get a Do Not Pass Go, Do Not Collect $200 2B, and the military member should get at least a Letter Of Counselling (or equivalent) or an Art. 15.

Sir,  if this in fact did happen it is hardly worthy of a Art 15 unless said mil member is a complete dirtbag with a jacket full of infractions.  Same with a LOC at the most this is a counselling session documented with the proper form.  If this happened he had to obligation to as I have said before disengage as politely and professionally as possible.  If this had been my troop you can be sure his but would be handed to him had they acted in the manner described. 

[spacecommand]

The topic about the Major if true has already been discussed before.  Sounds like that AFtimes bulletin board article has it's story changed now, the CAP "Major" is now a "Colonel" and the disagreement has turned into "cussing at each other". 

We don't know who changed the rank. The OP did not directly quote or link to the article. For all we know the OP got it wrong. The quote of the orginal article on the first page of the thread uses the rank of Major in the story.

So it appears that a denizen of CAPTalk, not the 'internet' changed the story.

The CAP leadership at the time seemed to think the incident was real.

NHQ's response was to the stories that have been going around the internet or through rumor and to re-iterate the regulations on saluting.  NHQ specifically quoted the AF times article as an example of some of the stories people may have heard, but did not state if it were true or not.  But they have no reason to do either.
This particular story, true or not is not reflective of CAP as a whole, of course I think there are people out there who would like to make it sound like there is an epidemic out there of this happening.   Another item that we do know is that is happening out there is that there are disgruntled former CAP members out there who have published stories about CAP (it might not be this situation, but there have been other instances of false stories/allegations) that have been reported as fact or picked up as fact by some but in the end turned out to be unfounded allegations. 

[Major Lord]

The topic about the Major if true has already been discussed before.  Sounds like that AFtimes bulletin board article has it's story changed now, the CAP "Major" is now a "Colonel" and the disagreement has turned into "cussing at each other". 

We don't know who changed the rank. The OP did not directly quote or link to the article. For all we know the OP got it wrong. The quote of the orginal article on the first page of the thread uses the rank of Major in the story.

So it appears that a denizen of CAPTalk, not the 'internet' changed the story.

The CAP leadership at the time seemed to think the incident was real.

NHQ's response was to the stories that have been going around the internet or through rumor and to re-iterate the regulations on saluting.  NHQ specifically quoted the AF times article as an example of some of the stories people may have heard, but did not state if it were true or not.  But they have no reason to do either.
This particular story, true or not is not reflective of CAP as a whole, of course I think there are people out there who would like to make it sound like there is an epidemic out there of this happening.   Another item that we do know is that is happening out there is that there are disgruntled former CAP members out there who have published stories about CAP (it might not be this situation, but there have been other instances of false stories/allegations) that have been reported as fact or picked up as fact by some but in the end turned out to be unfounded allegations.

Were it just NHQ acknowledging an urban myth, and clarifying the regulations for any Officer too stupid to have understood his years of CAP indoctrination,  it would not be so bad. CAP Corporate's position statements implied that the story had potential veracity, and that the merits of the accusations were worth acting upon, as indicated  by issuing said directives. It shows a pattern of over-reaction, immaturity, and frankly, gullibility, by those in leadership in CAP. The argument that the truth is irrelevant is an argument made by those who have no grasp of ethics or morality. The truth is always relevant.

Major Lord

[spacecommand]

Maybe I didn't put it in the right words,  but I'm pretty sure I have some ethics and morality. 

[RADIOMAN015]

Wow    Having spent just a bit over 20 years of active military service in the USAF, I can't ever recall even seeing a senior member in uniform, anywhere, ever.

Most military personnel have absolutely no contact with CAP members.   Likely the most that have contact would be security forces e.g. gate guards and patrols.

The Air Force guidance is pretty clear on this AFI 10-2701 para 1-3

  1.3. Status of CAP Personnel. CAP is not a military service and its members are not subject to the
UCMJ. CAP members voluntarily perform Air Force-assigned missions. CAP membership does not confer
upon an individual any of the rights, privileges, prerogatives or benefits of military personnel, active,
reserve, or retired. While CAP is not a military service, it uses an Air Force-style grade structure and its
members may wear Air Force-style uniforms when authorized. Air Force protocol requirements do not
apply to CAP members.

I think if one while in ANY CAP uniform treats everyone (especially military members) with respect, politeness, and a genuine positive attitude that I/we appreciate your service, that will go a long way for the organization overall.

Bottom line --   No one in the military is required to salute CAP members.   Go see a therapist if you think otherwise
RM 

[LGM30GMCC]

Let's be honest though. How many people out of the USAF and CAP do you think have actually ready AFI 10-2701?

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Were it just NHQ acknowledging an urban myth, and clarifying the regulations for any Officer too stupid to have understood his years of CAP indoctrination,  it would not be so bad. CAP Corporate's position statements implied that the story had potential veracity, and that the merits of the accusations were worth acting upon, as indicated  by issuing said directives. It shows a pattern of over-reaction, immaturity, and frankly, gullibility, by those in leadership in CAP. The argument that the truth is irrelevant is an argument made by those who have no grasp of ethics or morality. The truth is always relevant.

Major Lord

Quite well said, sir.

In almost 20 years (off-and-on) of CAP, I have never heard of anything beyond the apocryphal stories of a couple of CAP officers who got in hot water at Maxwell for trying to ream out AF SNCO's who didn't render a salute.  Every now and then someone stokes this burning pile of Bravo Sierra just to make it stink.

Let's be honest though. How many people out of the USAF and CAP do you think have actually ready AFI 10-2701?

I have a copy in my CAP binder, and am quite familiar with it...and not just the part about uniforms and saluting.

Bottom line --   No one in the military is required to salute CAP members.   Go see a therapist if you think otherwise
RM 

Therapy is also potentially useful for those who insist on repeatedly restating the obvious ad nauseam.

[RiverAux]

Here is a poll I did a few years ago on whether or not people personally had seen such behavior.  As expected, it was pretty rare.  http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=8957.40