Packs, bags and pouches

[SARMedTech]

Im sure this has been done to death, but Im a nube  so please humor me. I am still in the phase of shopping for the perfect pack. Preferably something modular that could be broken down for use as my 24 pack, carried all together for extended SAR operations and exercises and also something that I can put my EMT  emergency stabilizing first aide gear in. Im thinking of the CFP-90, but have also looked at Alices (including a sort of newer model called the Malice Pack) and modular Molle gear. Also, If I ended up going with a smaller pack (like a small alice) could I also wear a LB vest for first aide gear or is that prohibited by regs. Ive seen lots of combinations in photos and my squadron ranging from a cadet who carries a full medics pack (which is about 30 inches from top to bottom and about 11 inches from his back the the front of the pack..he isnt an EMT) to a Swiss Army surplus ruck sack, which is very cool by the way and would make a great 24. If you'd like to check it for use shoot me a PM and I will give you the link.  I currently have a personal first aide kit for myself that is the VietNam era little pack that goes on the belt.  Im still stumbling around to acclimate  into my Squadron ( At age 33 and other than the cadets, I am the youngest  in my squadron. With some of the "silver backs" health I should probably carry bi-phasic AED....just kidding.) Is stuff hanging on the belt allowed? I havent been in long enough to have regs memorized. The little  first aide pouch is for when I hurt MYSELF cause i wasnt paying attention and walked into a low tree limb and dont want to halt the line. I know alot of you dont approve of my insistence that alot of EMT/BLS supplies should be in the field but its the way I do things...also, Im a major gear head and I wear my Master Gear Head badge with pride, but geez,just cause a guy carries a 15,000 candlepower flashlight, he's branded for life.  I recommend this light to every EMT, LEO etc that I meet. Its mil-spec and is also considered a less lethal light "weapon".  I will probably catch it in this thread for that.

Since its too late to make a long story short I will get to my point. I would be eternally  grateful to any and all who could respond to this thread with what you carry when ground pounding, your experienced opinions on modular or self contained, internal or external frame. If you can post photos, or PM them to me I would be very grateful. If you do, could you please show a photo of the pack all closed and squared away and then an open shot of how your battle rattle is organized. Also, going back to the EMT thing, does anyone know if thigh rig packs are authorized.  Thank you in advance for helping the nube.

PS--I know this is probably a stupid posting and that more than a few may well tell me so please give me a little wiggle room for asking stupid questions.

[IceNine]

First off welcome, 

Several times you ask if things are prohibited and the answer to all of them is No, you can at this time carry any pack that you want without fear of discipline.  There are specific Items that you are not allowed to carry or specs that define what you can. 

As far as the med pack as long as you don't carry anything beyond BLS supplies you should be OK.  Depending on the are in which you operate it is also not a wise idea to carry ET Tubes, IV's, etc.  So stick to stopping bleeding, fixing blisters, and splinting and I carry some basic airway stuff, and you will be OK. 

I personally carry the Molle version of the Ruck Sack.  It has a large inner area, a flap with a plasticized map case,  a small pouch on the outside, and straps on the sides.  It also has a large "butt pack" on the bottom which is store my sleeping bag, sleeping pad, and camp pillow in. 

For the 24 I am using a Helo pilot survival vest right now.  I am planning on switching to one of the blackhawk systems that has the pouches in front only. 

The things that I have found that work for me are a 24 hour pack with nothing on the back except my camelbak.  And the 72 as mentioned.  You should choose a vest for 24 that is modular, just keep in mind that the bulk of CAP's missions are ELT and you are in and out of the vehicle A Lot there is nothing worse than taking off your 24 gear 8 million times because you cant sit on it.

[SARMedTech]

if you know it, could you please send me a link or give the web address so i can take a look at the pack. It sounds alot like what I am looking and much more versatile and adaptable than the CFP.  I only carry BLS supplies and OTC meds that I can give out for the cadets and officers to "self administer." What airways do you carry. i was thinking NPA and OPA but am not sure how it would play out if i stuck a tube down someones nose or stuck a chunk of plastic in their mouth...by that I mean liability, etc. I also intend to pack, or at least have at my fingertips a BVM and a v-vac.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Tell me more about your 15,000 candlepower light sabre. 

[Major Lord]

I carry my 24 hour kit in a civilian backpack with a semi-rigid internal frame. Its Air Force Blue...MOLLE, ALICE and all that other military gear went out to the lowest bidder. Blackhawk is the Pro's choice. I carry my medical throw bag in the car, but there is no room for a suction unit, AED, BVM, etc.
On activities where all the gear will be in the car, I carry the whole dog and pony show, AED, O2, Hand-held suction, larygescope, Mcgills, etc.
I do carry one #7 ET tube ( I have combitubes, but they are too big to carry in the boondocks) I got myquick and dirty bag from Galls : http://galls.com/style.html?assort=general_catalog&style=MB027&cat=2732

Of course, all of this is for non-CAP activities. For CAP, you should only call 911 and never give first aid or CPR. Praying may not be permissible either, since we are a pseudo-governmental agency. I am waiting for a policy letter on this...

Capt. Lord

[Stonewall]

Durable, versitile and relatively inexpensive...and you mentioned it.  The CFP-90.

Why I love it:
-Internal frame with harness system that makes it comfortable to carry
-Separate fartsack (sleeping bag) compartment
-Perfect size external pouches for that important stuff you need quickly
-Main compartment is big enough but not too big so you over-pack
-24 hour day pack is made specifically for that pack and comes in ultra-handy for searches
-You can wear almost any LBE/LBV set-up with it

People will argue and that's cool.  But if you're not a paid SAR expert and you're in a paramilitary organization, you can't go wrong with the CFP-90.  I carried it at Winter Hawk and throughout the Shenandoah Mountains for years.  It works.  

[MIKE]

MOLLE and similar modular rigs is what all the kool kids have these days.

[IceNine]

I wasn't going to bring it up but I carry a basic airway kit as well.  BVM, Suction, OPA's and NPA's all of this is on my medical thigh pack.  I also have a jump kit from galls with the works minus an AED.  But, I am looking at the statpack for my field work and I will just keep my larger pack in the car.  Again this is for outside work but I like to have it available for those rainy days.   

[bricktonfire]

i have WEB Gear

[SARMedTech]

I wasn't going to bring it up but I carry a basic airway kit as well.  BVM, Suction, OPA's and NPA's all of this is on my medical thigh pack.  I also have a jump kit from galls with the works minus an AED.  But, I am looking at the statpack for my field work and I will just keep my larger pack in the car.  Again this is for outside work but I like to have it available for those rainy days.   

I too have OPAs and NPAs but you might have a little trouble should you ever chose to use them since they clearly fall outside the realm of the "emergency stabilizing first aide" and it would be a very bad thing for all involved if you were on a CAP tasking and put a NPA into someones nostril, only to have it start bleeding like  a stuck pig because you tore the nasal mucosa: a known complication of this simple little device but one that would probably get you booted out of CAP and that would be the least of your worries. I think they are really vital to carry, but the faact is we cant use them since invasive procedures are not first aide. I think we should write to teh Health Service and ask them to provide a complete working definition of first aide as it applies to CAP. An OPA or NPA cold save a life...would be a shame if we couldnt use them because of liability coverage, or lack thereof. YMMV.

[RiverAux]

I will agree that CAP has done an extremely poor job in defining the scope of our "medical" program...I suppose thats the value we get for giving all those health professionals advanced grade....

[SARMedTech]

I will agree that CAP has done an extremely poor job in defining the scope of our "medical" program...I suppose thats the value we get for giving all those health professionals advanced grade....

Im not sure where all of your negativity and if someone says white you say black attitude comes from, but even you must be able to see that there is no correlation between CAP not bothering to define what it means by "emergency stabilizing first aide" and that fact that we have medical/health professionals who are appointed to an advanced grade because of their professional skills and licensure. Im sorry if you possess no such skills/license/certification and hence have not been promoted as quickly as you would like, but I see no reason that that should be a problem for the rest of us.  Out of curiosity, what is your grade?

[davedove]

To answer the basic question, there are requirements on what you have to carry, what you're not allowed to carry, and what is recommended but not required.

There are NO requirements on HOW you carry it, only that you must be able to do so.  So, use whatever pack/vest/webgear works for you.

[floridacyclist]

Of course, all of this is for non-CAP activities. For CAP, you should only call 911 and never give first aid or CPR. Praying may not be permissible either, since we are a pseudo-governmental agency. I am waiting for a policy letter on this...

Capt. Lord

I sure hope you were joking about never giving CPR or first aid. Refusing life-saving first aid when you're qualified (and in some areas, legally required) to do so could be the makings of a really good lawsuit....one that I wouldn't hesitate to pursue even as a punitive measure (then donate all the money to a first-aid training program for the group LOL)

[SARMedTech]

Of course, all of this is for non-CAP activities. For CAP, you should only call 911 and never give first aid or CPR. Praying may not be permissible either, since we are a pseudo-governmental agency. I am waiting for a policy letter on this...

Capt. Lord

I sure hope you were joking about never giving CPR or first aid. Refusing life-saving first aid when you're qualified (and in some areas, legally required) to do so could be the makings of a really good lawsuit....one that I wouldn't hesitate to pursue even as a punitive measure (then donate all the money to a first-aid training program for the group LOL)

Im sure Capt Lord was joking, but he is not far off the mark. We are civilians. Even if we are EMTs, we are not acting as an EMT agency or operator. Basically we are good samaritans with a bunch more knowledge. An off-duty EMT or non-EMT samaritan is not required to do anything under law. We can see someone laying there squirting blood from a femoral artery and not do anything. While CAP regs talk about first aide, while operating for CAP even those of us who are EMS responders are not bound by any duty to act and therefor if you think "I dont want to touch that" or "thats gross" you are under no legal obligation to render care, nor do you have a duty to do so. Just like me as an off duty EMT, I can drive right by a semi-truck accident and not do a thing. Im not even required to report it. I would hope that we all would and am pretty sure that we would to the best of our abilities and education, but we dont have to. As I say, as samaritan, which is basically what we are, has no duty to render care and could basically start applying pressure dressings, feel they are in over their head, and walk away. The test which must be present to prove abandonment is that you started to render care and then ceased when you had a DUTY to act. We dont. As so many members have stated, we arent an EMS agency. As far as the legal concept of neglect, this does not apply to CAP EMTs either and never applies to samaritans. The four aspects are: Do I have a legal duty to act. Answer: NO..given the way CAP regs are written.  Will the person perish or worsen without care? Can I safely perform any interventions? Do my interventions have the possibility of making the persons conditions worse or killing them. Depending on the answers to these test questions, we have no duty to act and since CAP, because of lack of liability coverage and medical direction has stripped us of the duty to do anything other than first aide and even responders are not on duty with CAP, we have no legal obligation to do a single thing. Moral, yes. Legal, no.

[Hoser]

One proviso on the duty to act thread. If an off duty EMT or medic has a Star of Life in the back window of their vehicle, doesn't stop at the terrible death and dismemberment crash, AND a bystander sees this AND gets their license number and they are then identified as an EMT or medic they then CAN be held liable because the Star of Life is advertising a skill set and knowledge base beyond that of John Q. Public, which then establishes a duty to act. That is why I took all identifying decals off my truck, be they a Star of Life, IAFF sticker etc etc.
  Hoser

[arajca]

One proviso to your proviso - check your state laws. They vary greatly.

[SARMedTech]

One proviso on the duty to act thread. If an off duty EMT or medic has a Star of Life in the back window of their vehicle, doesn't stop at the terrible death and dismemberment crash, AND a bystander sees this AND gets their license number and they are then identified as an EMT or medic they then CAN be held liable because the Star of Life is advertising a skill set and knowledge base beyond that of John Q. Public, which then establishes a duty to act. That is why I took all identifying decals off my truck, be they a Star of Life, IAFF sticker etc etc.
  Hoser

Actually, that is not correct. Unlike an "off duty" LEO, an off duty EMT or Paramedic has absolutely no duty to act regardless of how many stickers or decals they have on their POV. The reason for this is that when you are not on duty, you are not covered under liability, not are you operating under any medical directors license. Both of these things only occur when you are on duty for the agency you work for. Im also fairly certain that a firefighter has no duty to act when not on duty as well, but no being currently a firefighter, I could say. But I am sure about the other aspect. This is true enough to be a whole set of questions on the NREMT exam and is covered at some length in the Brady text. Could you please site your sources for the idea that if you have any "identifying" emblem on your POV that you are required to stop?

[SarDragon]

As noted above, the rules vary state by state. His rules may vary significantly from yours.

[isuhawkeye]

if you are interested I have started to talk about my 24 hour gear on my blog.  I have  a few more posts before its done, but take a look
www.isuhawkeye.blogspot.com

[jb512]

Actually, that is not correct. Unlike an "off duty" LEO, an off duty EMT or Paramedic has absolutely no duty to act regardless of how many stickers or decals they have on their POV. The reason for this is that when you are not on duty, you are not covered under liability, not are you operating under any medical directors license. Both of these things only occur when you are on duty for the agency you work for. Im also fairly certain that a firefighter has no duty to act when not on duty as well, but no being currently a firefighter, I could say. But I am sure about the other aspect. This is true enough to be a whole set of questions on the NREMT exam and is covered at some length in the Brady text. Could you please site your sources for the idea that if you have any "identifying" emblem on your POV that you are required to stop?

While we're on the subject, an off duty LEO is not required to act either.  Would we?, of course.  Again the application of legal vs. moral would work best.

[Stonewall]

Something I wish I had BITD (Back In The Day), is the Camelbak BFM.  It's quite costly, like $150, but to me, it is the most practical pack I've seen and used.  I didn't get it until 2005 when they sent one to me to T&E (Test and Evaluate) for use on my protection team.  They also sent us a "med bag insert".  Its an insert that turns the pack into a medical bag with several different internal pouches designed for medical gear.  I was able to keep both but never used the medical insert because we already used the STOMP pack by Blackhawk.

The BFM is larger than a regular 3-day pack, but smaller than a large rucksack.  And the internal and exeternal pouches are perfect, I mean perfect, for storing smaller items.  Inside the pack, there are straps to tighten things down and keep things separate.  If you see one at a store, open it up and look inside, you'll see what I mean.  In one of the outside pockets, sort of the "admin pocket", it has two pouches for handheld radios.  I'm telling you, it's the Bee's Knees.

Camelbak BFM


MedBak Insert

[SARMedTech]

Stonewall-

exactly the pack I have been looking for!  Where has it been all my life?!? Could you please point me to a online source for the pack and medical insert. As soon as you point me to it, I will order it. Can they be had in TacBlack? That would allow me to use it for multiple applications. If you respond soon, I can still order today. Will it fit a sleeping bag, shelter half.etc?

[SARMedTech]

Actually, that is not correct. Unlike an "off duty" LEO, an off duty EMT or Paramedic has absolutely no duty to act regardless of how many stickers or decals they have on their POV. The reason for this is that when you are not on duty, you are not covered under liability, not are you operating under any medical directors license. Both of these things only occur when you are on duty for the agency you work for. Im also fairly certain that a firefighter has no duty to act when not on duty as well, but no being currently a firefighter, I could say. But I am sure about the other aspect. This is true enough to be a whole set of questions on the NREMT exam and is covered at some length in the Brady text. Could you please site your sources for the idea that if you have any "identifying" emblem on your POV that you are required to stop?

While we're on the subject, an off duty LEO is not required to act either.  Would we?, of course.  Again the application of legal vs. moral would work best.

In Illininois, where my father was a LEO for 37 years, an off duty LEO witnessing a crime occurring, must take "direct, appropriate and significant" action to stop it. So you can bet out here at least that an off duty LEO getting his Saturday Krispy Kreme fix when the place got help up would drug before IB before his next shift. In fact, in Illinois, off duty LEOs are expected to be armed.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Also the case in Ohio.  An officer, on or off duty, is expected to take action to stop crime and apprehend the offender when it is within his power to do so, alone or with available assistance.

Failure to do so is a second degree misdemeanor.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Stonewall-

exactly the pack I have been looking for!  Where has it been all my life?!? Could you please point me to a online source for the pack and medical insert. As soon as you point me to it, I will order it. Can they be had in TacBlack? That would allow me to use it for multiple applications. If you respond soon, I can still order today. Will it fit a sleeping bag, shelter half.etc?

I have one.  It is the most comfortable pack I ever carried.  i do no use the medical insert, though, I have a small commercial first aid kit that I pack inside.

[Stonewall]

Stonewall-

exactly the pack I have been looking for!  Where has it been all my life?!? Could you please point me to a online source for the pack and medical insert. As soon as you point me to it, I will order it. Can they be had in TacBlack? That would allow me to use it for multiple applications. If you respond soon, I can still order today. Will it fit a sleeping bag, shelter half.etc?

Dude, what would we do without things in "tactical black" plastered with velcro all over them?  Not sure we'd live.  You can find them anywhere, from the military clothing sales store on an Army post to the Galls catalog.  I actually got mine from our rep at Galls.  I'd check on ebay too.  I'm sure most every place has them, like Brigade Quartermaster (www.actiongear.com) my favorite place to shop.  Since you seem to be a Gear Queer and require instant gratificaiton, like myself, I'd simply call all the normal places and make sure they have it in stock.  Not sure where the med insert is, but if I can find it I'd send you mine.  I'm sure it's worth at least $60.  Just not sure when I'd get the time to box it up and send it.

[Stonewall]

See the vertical side pouch on the BFM?  There's one on both sides.  I use a small utility pouch, actually called a shave kit for some reason, from Blackhawk.  On one side, I keep all sorts of personal meds, everything from Malorone, Amoxicilan and Cipro to  bandaids and moleskin.  Of course that was for my worldwide travels to developing countries.  On the other side, I carried the same pouch with all my plug adapters for different countries as well as my phone and iPod charger.

The BHI (shaving kit) pouch:  http://www.blackhawk.com/product1.asp?P=20SK00BK&C=C1190

That bottom horizontal pouch has several internal mesh pouches which also allows you to separate odds and ends.

I'm telling you, I'm a huge fan of the BFM. 

*THIS IS NOT A PAID ADVERTISEMENT*

[EDIT TO ADD]  I think, yes, the BFM could fit a small moderate weather sleeping bag (fart sack), or maybe a cold weather down bag.    And yes, a small tent, but not together with a sleeping bag.  I have a Mountain Hardware Slick Rock tent that weighs in at like 2 1/2 lbs.  I've fit that along with a my 10 degree down bag in a Eagle 3-day assault pack.  But then you lose out on other valuable space for important things.  If I still lived in VA where it does snow and gets pretty dern cold, I'd keep a regular ruck sack in my vehicle with a zero degree bag and a real tent, but in the BFM I'd have 2 military ponchos with bungee cords and a poncho liner for an emergency shelter.  That's just how I roll.

[Stonewall]

FWIW, I just searched and found a pic of the CFP-90.  I still stand by this as a primary ruck sack/72hr gear, especially for those areas where it gets cold.  I love the separate area for the fart sack on the bottom so you don't have to dig through your junk to get it out.



See, like the BFM, it's a very good pack to compartimentalize.  I've been called anal retentive more than once in my life and I love to have a place for everything.  From my personal hygiene kit to ziploc bags for socks and underwear, I love organization.

[jb512]

Actually, that is not correct. Unlike an "off duty" LEO, an off duty EMT or Paramedic has absolutely no duty to act regardless of how many stickers or decals they have on their POV. The reason for this is that when you are not on duty, you are not covered under liability, not are you operating under any medical directors license. Both of these things only occur when you are on duty for the agency you work for. Im also fairly certain that a firefighter has no duty to act when not on duty as well, but no being currently a firefighter, I could say. But I am sure about the other aspect. This is true enough to be a whole set of questions on the NREMT exam and is covered at some length in the Brady text. Could you please site your sources for the idea that if you have any "identifying" emblem on your POV that you are required to stop?

While we're on the subject, an off duty LEO is not required to act either.  Would we?, of course.  Again the application of legal vs. moral would work best.

In Illininois, where my father was a LEO for 37 years, an off duty LEO witnessing a crime occurring, must take "direct, appropriate and significant" action to stop it. So you can bet out here at least that an off duty LEO getting his Saturday Krispy Kreme fix when the place got help up would drug before IB before his next shift. In fact, in Illinois, off duty LEOs are expected to be armed.

To a certain extent, that's correct and every cop I know would jump into a situation regardless.  Here's an example:

http://www.kxan.com/Global/story.asp?S=5461766&nav=0s3dGNIk

Having a pregnant wife in the car and her parents could have been a defense for not acting based on their safety.  Case law has upheld that a cop can't be held liable for acts he did not prevent unless it's just plain negligence or a refusal to act with no other reason but it's hard to apply one specific law to every case.

Sorry, we're getting off topic.

[trekkindave]

Two things...

1) Has anyone ever looked into the Urban Search and Rescue Gear for a 24 hour pack? Its sort of like web gear but more comfortable and not as "green" looking.   Alittle more up to date. 


2) As for anyone that carries advanced EMS gear in packs... its a slippery slope no matter where you are.  As a professional paramedic in a busy system,  i can tell you that carrying gear in your vehicle is a bad thing.    All paramedics, and EMT's can tell you that you are working under direct "supervision" from a Medical Control Doctor or your Medical Director. (No.. we are not just calling to get orders, we have liberal protocols)   Having a tube kit is fine and dandy, but how the hell are you going to ensure that a patient intubated in the field 5 miles into the woods over rough and technical terrain is going to stay intubated for the entire transport down to the landing zone or extraction point?    I woudl think that you would find it difficult to maintain that airway for the entire transport without some sort of wilderness training. 

Now the for the duty to act part.   If you want to be a dinger, buff, or other word for someone who takes its to the xtreme then go ahead and put stickers on your car.. I did it.. But have toned it down.    (BTW has anyone seen that video of those kids with the lights , one with a possible CAP windbreaker on)

Those who posted about Duty to act for off duty EMS providers were right and wrong int he same time.    Some places require persons who are trained to act to render care or assitance  if they see somone in need.   These places tend to be the places were only a hand full of people will go down a road in a given day.  Example Vermont, and Washington State.

Speaking for NY state.   All EMS providers do not have  a duty to act off duty (LEGALLY, ETHICS OR MORALS ARE DIFFERENT).   NY allows bystanders and lay rescuers to provide assistance up to their level of training under the Good Samaritan laws. Most states have them, and they state that if you act up to your level of training in good faith, that you are not held liable for damages.    NY state ALS providers or not allowed by PART 800 of the public health law from carring ALS (Advanced life support) equipment in their vehicles unless they are fully equiped  according to the state minimum requirments, and they are inspected and certified by the state dept of health. 

I have heard rumors of some off duty dinger  with stickers that was sued for not stopping to help, but i have not seen it in writing. 

So for short, act to your proper leve of training.   Why bring just limited equipment to the table if you cannot provide full ALS care and further support.  Simple things like a BVM  and other BLS devices that are covered in CPR classes perhapse, but tube kits and what not are not necessary.  Chances are, if you are finding a crash victim they will most likely be dead on arrival, or so far gone into decompensated shock that just a tube kit will not help..


I am willing to discuss this topic with anyone who wishes..... i do not claim to be an expert in the subject of EMS law, but my 7 years of experience should count for something..

[Stonewall]

I'm a fan of CAP folks just using military gear, but chcek out this SAR Vest I found online today.  Comes in black, green and orange.  Seems pretty practical and not too expensive.

4) Our Hydra-SAR vest is packed with features designed for SAR personnel. The front features 3 zip 5"x8" pockets, 2 of them with reflectives. The upper left radio holder will hold any type of radio. The upper left and lower right holders will hold a FRS, a GPS, or can be used as just a pocket for spare batteries, compass, etc. The collar is foam-lined for comfort, with reflectives on each side. Built-in clips hold the hydration hose with bite valve, mesh provides cool comfort. The back pack portion has a separate sleeve for the included 70oz Bladder, and will hold approximately 1170cu in of gear (13x18x6). The vest is fully adjustable to fit most sizes. Extension straps available for up to XXXL. Custom colors available for orders of 50 or more.

Also available without backpack pocket and bladder. Allows for use of personal backpack or hydration pack.

http://www.searchgear.com/cart.cgi?sid=351990&printImage=catalog/images/VES1030L.gif