Aging out

[vesryn]

Gentlemen, the time has come.

I joined CAP in 2012, and I've had an amazing 7 years in the cadet program, but time comes for us all. I'll be joining the Dark Side this Saturday.

There better be cookies.

[TheSkyHornet]

Rule #1 about becoming a Senior Member: Don't refer to it as the "Dark Side."

Rule #2: Don't eat the cookies in front of the cadets. They're not allowed to know about our secret snack stash.

[vesryn]

Rule #1 about becoming a Senior Member: Don't refer to it as the "Dark Side."

Ah, but it's so much brighter here on the cadet side! /s

[Eclipse]

Congrats - are you literally aging out, or is this planned?

Few, if any of the tasks, equivalencies, etc., needed and wanted when moving over are automatic,
so if not you should take a look at those things as you'll be limited as to activities until they are worked out.

[vesryn]

Congrats - are you literally aging out, or is this planned?

Few, if any of the tasks, equivalencies, etc., needed and wanted when moving over are automatic,
so if not you should take a look at those things as you'll be limited as to activities until they are worked out.

I am literally aging out. I haven't been to a squadron meeting in quite some time. My squadron is in NY, university is in MA, and home is in VA, so I haven't had much time or opportunity to actually talk with relevant SM's , though I really gotta get on that.

I also won't be able to go to another meeting for the next six months, as I'll be out of the country studying abroad.

[Eclipse]

You should call your CC or Admin / Personnel person to get the things done for you remotely.

Senior transition is not automatic.

https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/New_Horizons_88F8BFB3F26D0.pdf

"You must make this choice before you turn 21, because on your 21st birthday, you will automatically be
removed from the Civil Air Patrol cadet rolls.
Your membership does not automatically transition to senior member status, therefore you will no longer be a CAP member. See Section 3 for
more details. Please don't allow this to happen.
You are valuable to Civil Air Patrol, your experience as a cadet makes you a role model to the younger cadets, and an important resource to the
senior staff in your unit. Simply put, we don't want to lose you. It's CAP's job to help you to achieve your goals and grow, while you contribute
to the continued success of your unit and to CAP in general. "

[TheSkyHornet]

Rule #1 about becoming a Senior Member: Don't refer to it as the "Dark Side."

Ah, but it's so much brighter here on the cadet side! /s

That's what we like cadets to think. It's called deception.

There's a lot of good in the "senior program." It requires a bit more personal responsibility, and selflessness. A lot of the same issues exist: politics among members, cliques, lack of clarity on instruction, work overload, etc. But there are also a lot of positive, especially when it comes to networking at a younger age when careers are just starting out. It's a very different universe socially. We don't face the same supervision and compliance requirements when it comes to conducting activities. We're "big boys/girls." Sure, we don't have some of the cadet-oriented activities, but we still have some pretty awesome senior activities. As you mature and get older, your perspective changes.

[PHall]

Rule #1 about becoming a Senior Member: Don't refer to it as the "Dark Side."

Rule #2: Don't eat the cookies in front of the cadets. They're not allowed to know about our secret snack stash.

Your rule #1 is just that, your rule. The vast majority call it the Dark Side. But you can use your rules in your house.

And about rule #2, everybody knows that we eat doughnuts!!!!  Cookies are for Girl Scouts!

[SARDOC]

You should call your CC or Admin / Personnel person to get the things done for you remotely.

Senior transition is not automatic.

https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/New_Horizons_88F8BFB3F26D0.pdf

"You must make this choice before you turn 21, because on your 21st birthday, you will automatically be
removed from the Civil Air Patrol cadet rolls.
Your membership does not automatically transition to senior member status, therefore you will no longer be a CAP member. See Section 3 for
more details. Please don't allow this to happen.
You are valuable to Civil Air Patrol, your experience as a cadet makes you a role model to the younger cadets, and an important resource to the
senior staff in your unit. Simply put, we don't want to lose you. It's CAP's job to help you to achieve your goals and grow, while you contribute
to the continued success of your unit and to CAP in general. "

That isn't exactly true.  Cadets who haven't completed the process required to become Active Senior Members will actually get transferred to being a patron member

CAPR 39.2  3.2.4.4 Note 2 Within two months of their 21st birthday, cadets will receive an invitation to transfer to active membership along with a CAPF 12 and fingerprint card. Cadets who have not transferred to active member status prior to their 21st birthday, will have their membership transferred to patron status for the duration of the member year or until they complete the transfer to active member.

[Pace]

Rule #1 about becoming a Senior Member: Don't refer to it as the "Dark Side."

1. Speak for yourself. -Dark S'Member Lord
2. Who eats cookies? Just need the tub of cookie dough and a spoon.

j/k 

[PHall]

Rule #1 about becoming a Senior Member: Don't refer to it as the "Dark Side."

1. Speak for yourself. -Dark S'Member Lord
2. Who eats cookies? Just need the tub of cookie dough and a spoon.

j/k 

Spoon? We don't need no stinkin' spoon!

[N6RVT]

Rule #1 about becoming a Senior Member: Don't refer to it as the "Dark Side."

Rule #1 - you do not talk about the dark side.
Rule #2 - if its your first day in the dark side, you gotta.....something.  I forget what, it was 1974 in my case.

[PHall]

Rule #1 about becoming a Senior Member: Don't refer to it as the "Dark Side."

Rule #1 - you do not talk about the dark side.
Rule #2 - if its your first day in the dark side, you gotta.....something.  I forget what, it was 1974 in my case.

No, no, no. Rule #2 is the new guy buys the donuts. How could you forget that?

[MSG Mac]

Congrats - are you literally aging out, or is this planned?

Few, if any of the tasks, equivalencies, etc., needed and wanted when moving over are automatic,
so if not you should take a look at those things as you'll be limited as to activities until they are worked out.

I am literally aging out. I haven't been to a squadron meeting in quite some time. My squadron is in NY, university is in MA, and home is in VA, so I haven't had much time or opportunity to actually talk with relevant SM's , though I really gotta get on that.

I also won't be able to go to another meeting for the next six months, as I'll be out of the country studying abroad.

You do know you are allowed to attend meetings of other Squadrons and even transfer into them while going to school.

[NIN]

Rule #1 about becoming a Senior Member: Don't refer to it as the "Dark Side."

Rule #2: Don't eat the cookies in front of the cadets. They're not allowed to know about our secret snack stash.

Random statistical guess, but I suspect that 30% of cadets won't go "blue to grey" becuse of the term "The Dark Side."

So lets put that one in the bin alongside "the best kept secret," shall we?

[N6RVT]

Congrats - are you literally aging out, or is this planned?/quote]

Its when you age out the second time........

[TheSkyHornet]

Rule #1 about becoming a Senior Member: Don't refer to it as the "Dark Side."

Rule #2: Don't eat the cookies in front of the cadets. They're not allowed to know about our secret snack stash.

Random statistical guess, but I suspect that 30% of cadets won't go "blue to grey" becuse of the term "The Dark Side."

So lets put that one in the bin alongside "the best kept secret," shall we?

My stance on it. If you put a negative connotation to it, it will have a negative impact.

I have several Flight Officers that have moved over before turning 21, and they seem to really be enjoying it. You need to put in the effort to make them feel welcomed, treat them like adults, but avoid putting them into overwhelming situations since they're still young adults that don't have the life experience (in most cases) to run off of. New senior members—regardless of age—need mentoring. But I find that younger seniors need more mentoring in a lot of non-CAP aspects such as where they want to go career-wise and any school-related issues they may have. Being a senior member can be a great opportunity for that age group. Make it a place that your cadets know they can turn to as they get older and either age out of the program or decide they would rather not do "cadet stuff" any more.

Cadets shouldn't see senior members as "the old guys who tell me what to do." If you aren't presenting yourself as a serious mentor and facilitator in a training program, you're doing an injustice to the program. I don't want any of my cadets to see me as a substitute for mommy or daddy, or "the guy in charge." My role is to oversee cadet operations and development, and to mentor and provide feedback in youth leadership development. If I can lock in that understanding, I can sway aging cadets to stay on as cadre members or return later on down the road.

[etodd]

If they are moving over at 21, might well mean they haven't been in the plane for THREE years, since they age out of Orientation Flights when they hit 18.  So any that move over, I try to get them started with Mission Scanner and maybe then Airborne Photographer, so we can get them back in the airplane for the qualification sorties. Gives them some fun goals.

[PHall]

If they are moving over at 21, might well mean they haven't been in the plane for THREE years, since they age out of Orientation Flights when they hit 18.  So any that move over, I try to get them started with Mission Scanner and maybe then Airborne Photographer, so we can get them back in the airplane for the qualification sorties. Gives them some fun goals.

If flying is what they want to do. It may surprise you but not all members of CAP have the desire to fly.
As a senior member they get to pick what they want to do.

[Brit_in_CAP]

↑ that.  I have lots of SM who would be happy to take the occasional O-Ride, if such could be offered, but have no desire to do anything aircrew related.

[etodd]

If they are moving over at 21, might well mean they haven't been in the plane for THREE years, since they age out of Orientation Flights when they hit 18.  So any that move over, I try to get them started with Mission Scanner and maybe then Airborne Photographer, so we can get them back in the airplane for the qualification sorties. Gives them some fun goals.

If flying is what they want to do. It may surprise you but not all members of CAP have the desire to fly.
As a senior member they get to pick what they want to do.

Well of course silly, we don't force anyone to fly.  I was referring to those who might like to go that route. I'm the guy here that teaches MS, AP, & MO, sUAS and other things. And try to jump start them quickly, before their interests wane.

If they are interested in ground based opportunities we have other members who will mentor them in those areas.

[PHall]

If they are moving over at 21, might well mean they haven't been in the plane for THREE years, since they age out of Orientation Flights when they hit 18.  So any that move over, I try to get them started with Mission Scanner and maybe then Airborne Photographer, so we can get them back in the airplane for the qualification sorties. Gives them some fun goals.

If flying is what they want to do. It may surprise you but not all members of CAP have the desire to fly.
As a senior member they get to pick what they want to do.

Well of course silly, we don't force anyone to fly.  I was referring to those who might like to go that route. I'm the guy here that teaches MS, AP, & MO, sUAS and other things. And try to jump start them quickly, before their interests wane.

If they are interested in ground based opportunities we have other members who will mentor them in those areas.

You might be surprised to know that less then half of the cadets out there are interested in flying and aviation.
Many come into the program for leadership training, ES and for "something to do".

[etodd]

You might be surprised to know that less then half of the cadets out there are interested in flying and aviation.
Many come into the program for leadership training, ES and for "something to do".

Not surprised at all.  Wing Hdqs looks at the Orientation Flight reports and asks why so many haven't had their first flight?  And I have to reply with how many are not interested. Those reports should not be used that way. There really should be a column on that report where the Squadron can show the ones that will never fly.

[PHall]

You might be surprised to know that less then half of the cadets out there are interested in flying and aviation.
Many come into the program for leadership training, ES and for "something to do".

Not surprised at all.  Wing Hdqs looks at the Orientation Flight reports and asks why so many haven't had their first flight?  And I have to reply with how many are not interested. Those reports should not be used that way. There really should be a column on that report where the Squadron can show the ones that will never fly.

National and CAP-USAF have budgeted money for the O-Flights, when it's not used they have to explain why it was not used to the auditor.
Which is why you have to give your reply.

[etodd]

You might be surprised to know that less then half of the cadets out there are interested in flying and aviation.
Many come into the program for leadership training, ES and for "something to do".

Not surprised at all.  Wing Hdqs looks at the Orientation Flight reports and asks why so many haven't had their first flight?  And I have to reply with how many are not interested. Those reports should not be used that way. There really should be a column on that report where the Squadron can show the ones that will never fly.

National and CAP-USAF have budgeted money for the O-Flights, when it's not used they have to explain why it was not used to the auditor.
Which is why you have to give your reply.

Yes. Another issue with that report is that it shows Cadets who haven't fallen off the roll yet.  We have about 10 who haven't attended a meeting in months. That really skews the numbers when Hdqs looks at it. Need a way to purge those cadets off the list so Hdqs doesn't keep asking why they are not flying. Waiting until their 12 month membership dues runs out isn't helpful.

[Eclipse]

You might be surprised to know that less then half of the cadets out there are interested in flying and aviation.
Many come into the program for leadership training, ES and for "something to do".

Not surprised at all.  Wing Hdqs looks at the Orientation Flight reports and asks why so many haven't had their first flight?  And I have to reply with how many are not interested. Those reports should not be used that way. There really should be a column on that report where the Squadron can show the ones that will never fly.

National and CAP-USAF have budgeted money for the O-Flights, when it's not used they have to explain why it was not used to the auditor.
Which is why you have to give your reply.

Yes. Another issue with that report is that it shows Cadets who haven't fallen off the roll yet.  We have about 10 who haven't attended a meeting in months. That really skews the numbers when Hdqs looks at it. Need a way to purge those cadets off the list so Hdqs doesn't keep asking why they are not flying. Waiting until their 12 month membership dues runs out isn't helpful.

Terminate them for "Lack of Interest".

[N6RVT]

You might be surprised to know that less then half of the cadets out there are interested in flying and aviation. Many come into the program for leadership training, ES and for "something to do".

Not surprised at all.  Wing Hdqs looks at the Orientation Flight reports and asks why so many haven't had their first flight?  And I have to reply with how many are not interested. Those reports should not be used that way. There really should be a column on that report where the Squadron can show the ones that will never fly.

National and CAP-USAF have budgeted money for the O-Flights, when it's not used they have to explain why it was not used to the auditor. Which is why you have to give your reply.

Yes. Another issue with that report is that it shows Cadets who haven't fallen off the roll yet.  We have about 10 who haven't attended a meeting in months. That really skews the numbers when Hdqs looks at it. Need a way to purge those cadets off the list so Hdqs doesn't keep asking why they are not flying. Waiting until their 12 month membership dues runs out isn't helpful.

Terminate them for "Lack of Interest".

Back in the old days - must have been the 1970's sometime - Group 19 in California purged all of its inactive members like that.   And in so doing, purged group 19 itself, which was disbanded shortly thereafter.

[Eclipse]

Back in the old days - must have been the 1970's sometime - Group 19 in California purged all of its inactive members like that.   And in so doing, purged group 19 itself, which was disbanded shortly thereafter.

If the Group is a closet of empty shirts, then it deserved to be retired.

[Ozzy]

You might be surprised to know that less then half of the cadets out there are interested in flying and aviation.
Many come into the program for leadership training, ES and for "something to do".

Not surprised at all.  Wing Hdqs looks at the Orientation Flight reports and asks why so many haven't had their first flight?  And I have to reply with how many are not interested. Those reports should not be used that way. There really should be a column on that report where the Squadron can show the ones that will never fly.

National and CAP-USAF have budgeted money for the O-Flights, when it's not used they have to explain why it was not used to the auditor.
Which is why you have to give your reply.

Yes. Another issue with that report is that it shows Cadets who haven't fallen off the roll yet.  We have about 10 who haven't attended a meeting in months. That really skews the numbers when Hdqs looks at it. Need a way to purge those cadets off the list so Hdqs doesn't keep asking why they are not flying. Waiting until their 12 month membership dues runs out isn't helpful.
[/quote

Transfer them to 000. I did and do that for cadet members that haven't shown up and that don't respond to the 30-60-90 day emails I send to those I haven't seen in a while.

[Eclipse]

Transfer them to 000. I did and do that for cadet members that haven't shown up and that don't respond to the 30-60-90 day emails I send to those I haven't seen in a while.

That used to be a good compromise, however many wings, and even entire Regions no longer allow that.

[PHall]

The "correct" thing to do for cadets who lose interest in the program and quit showing up is to 2b them for "Lack of Interest".
That way they're out of the system and not effecting anyone's stats.

[N6RVT]

Transfer them to 000. I did and do that for cadet members that haven't shown up and that don't respond to the 30-60-90 day emails I send to those I haven't seen in a while.

That used to be a good compromise, however many wings, and even entire Regions no longer allow that.

I think the procedure now is to put them in Patron status but in the same unit.  Makes it easier to reinstate them if they re-appear and doesn't screw up activity statistics.

I do not know if that works for cadets.  Having cadets in patron status just seems odd.

[Ozzy]

Transfer them to 000. I did and do that for cadet members that haven't shown up and that don't respond to the 30-60-90 day emails I send to those I haven't seen in a while.

That used to be a good compromise, however many wings, and even entire Regions no longer allow that.

I think the procedure now is to put them in Patron status but in the same unit.  Makes it easier to reinstate them if they re-appear and doesn't screw up activity statistics.

I do not know if that works for cadets.  Having cadets in patron status just seems odd.

There is no cadet "Patron" membership.

As for the Wings and Region that don't allow for 000 ghost squadrons... well I guess it's a 2b then which makes them rejoining a little bit harder.

[PHall]

Transfer them to 000. I did and do that for cadet members that haven't shown up and that don't respond to the 30-60-90 day emails I send to those I haven't seen in a while.

That used to be a good compromise, however many wings, and even entire Regions no longer allow that.

I think the procedure now is to put them in Patron status but in the same unit.  Makes it easier to reinstate them if they re-appear and doesn't screw up activity statistics.

I do not know if that works for cadets.  Having cadets in patron status just seems odd.

There is no cadet "Patron" membership.

As for the Wings and Region that don't allow for 000 ghost squadrons... well I guess it's a 2b then which makes them rejoining a little bit harder.

I can't remember anyone who has been 2b'd for lack of interest as a cadet ever trying to rejoin as a cadet.
Have had a couple rejoin later as senior members and their 2b's were easily overcome since it wasn't because they were discipline problem.

[Eclipse]

I can't remember anyone who has been 2b'd for lack of interest as a cadet ever trying to rejoin as a cadet.
Have had a couple rejoin later as senior members and their 2b's were easily overcome since it wasn't because they were discipline problem.

Yep - "Lack of interest" terminations cause no issues whatsoever with rejoins.

One of the issues I'm aware of is the personnel records retention requirements with 000.
The wing, by reg, has to collect all those folders and retain them indefinitely, which becomes
a pretty big deal when you have 150+ people assigned to the charter and no actual
commander or staff.

[Fester]

If they are moving over at 21, might well mean they haven't been in the plane for THREE years, since they age out of Orientation Flights when they hit 18.  So any that move over, I try to get them started with Mission Scanner and maybe then Airborne Photographer, so we can get them back in the airplane for the qualification sorties. Gives them some fun goals.

If flying is what they want to do. It may surprise you but not all members of CAP have the desire to fly.
As a senior member they get to pick what they want to do.

Well of course silly, we don't force anyone to fly.  I was referring to those who might like to go that route. I'm the guy here that teaches MS, AP, & MO, sUAS and other things. And try to jump start them quickly, before their interests wane.

If they are interested in ground based opportunities we have other members who will mentor them in those areas.

You might be surprised to know that less then half of the cadets out there are interested in flying and aviation.
Many come into the program for leadership training, ES and for "something to do".

Where did you pull that stat from?  I have 50 cadets in my Unit.  Only ONE has no desire to fly.