My Utility Uniform Proposal

[Stonewall]

They won't be any more expensive or less widely available than the option proposed in this thread.  

Exactly what I said, with just a few more words and a link to examples.

[SARMedTech]

LONG LIVE THE KBU!  LONG LIVE STONEWALL!!!

That's a little out of control.

As opposed to most of the postings here on CAPTalk? 

[SARMedTech]

At the risk of repeating myself...again:

The KBU is the only viable alternative to the two uniform system of the non-starter of CAPsters fussing over when or if we will ever get the ABU. By the way, if you bought your moss boots already, I hope you saved the receipt cause those ABUs any coming down our pipeline any time soon unless they "fall of the back of a truck."

I dont hear anyone else coming up with anything that works.

The KBU solves the devisive two uniform debate, clearing out the muck of the need for camo and presenting a clear, military style uniform which is readily and inexpensively available, works with all currently used insignia, patches, etc.

For emphasis, I say again: we dont need no stinking camo. Never have, never will. Whether its woodland or diggies, it doesnt matter. And I got news for ya. Ive shown photos of some of the cadets I know to see what their reaction would be and most of them, in a very Paris Hilton like fashion said "That's hot." They liked the overall look, the cut of the TRU uniform base for the KBU, they liked the OD green/"retro thing" (their term, not mine) and several of them were sharp enough to recognize the elements of the uniform base that have some VietNam era throw-backs.

After Kirt introduced the KBU, I presented a photo-shopped version of the IMERT uniform in khaki using the Tru-Spec TRU as a base and most that saw it loved it. The younger folks liked the high speed look and the older ones liked the practical versatility.

I wish someone would pick up where Kirt has left off (so to speak) and bring this to the attention of NC. I think you would see it transitioned into the single field service uniform by 2011.

[Dragoon]

At the risk of repeating my self again - BBDUs for all accomplishes the same thing.  We don't HAVE to have two uniforms - we can always put all seniors in the corporate suit.

Then it's just down to a fashion choice - blue or green.

Personally, I prefer grey BDUs - very ES-like, but will blend pretty well with ABUs.  But any single suit for seniors if fine with me.

And getting cadets out of real USAF suits is a bad idea - it will cost them more, and it will eliminate one of our recruiting tools - a chance for kids to wear real warrior clothes.  (for seniors, I hope this isn't as important an incentive).

[mikeylikey]

- a chance for kids to wear real warrior clothes

Clothes do NOT make the Warrior. 

I serious hope you do not recruit on the basis of "hey kid you want to wear an Air Force uniform, and play Air Force".

[Stonewall]

I serious hope you do not recruit on the basis of "hey kid you want to wear an Air Force uniform, and play Air Force".

I can see where he's coming from actually.  As a cadet, I saw CAP as "more military" than the Scouts and even Sea Cadets.  Part of the coolness of CAP is being a part of the Air Force military.  But I think we can look just as "military" wearing a squared away version of a military type uniform.  Again, the utility uniform I proposed is in fact a military uniform in a military color.  Just so happens it's OD green and the current version of the Army's Combat Uniform.  I find the ACU 10x more practical for utility purposes than the BDU or ABU.  Other than the pen and cell phone pockets on the ABU, they're the same thing as BDUs.  That and you don't have to iron them, yet.  The ACU on the other hand, is a FIELD uniform.  And while a field uniform is often worn in garrison enviornments, it shouldn't be designed from the beginning to be that way.  Garrison enviornments should be the secondary use for a utility uniform, not the primary.

[mikeylikey]

The ACU on the other hand, is a FIELD uniform.  And while a field uniform is often worn in garrison environments, it shouldn't be designed from the beginning to be that way.  Garrison environments should be the secondary use for a utility uniform, not the primary.

I can't agree with you more! 

Why the AF did not just adopt the ACU (but change the colors if they wanted) is mind-numbing.  How many years have AF personnel worn ACU's in Iraq/AFGH?  Like four??  Didn't the AF Times have  a poll on whether Airman deployed would rather have an ACU or ABU?  I think overwhelmingly, they came back and said ACU's. 

Now, I don't HATE the ABU, (never worn them), but taking BDU's and making them wash and wear without designing them for the war-fighter in mind was foolish.  It seems to me that it was designed as a "recruiting tool" for the AF.  As most uniforms are. 

I suppose in 2 years after the ABU has seen major sand-time we will then see the actually fallout from the AF decision.  Can't be any worse than the ass-stitching coming apart on the ACU's, right?   

[Hawk200]

The ACU on the other hand, is a FIELD uniform.  And while a field uniform is often worn in garrison environments, it shouldn't be designed from the beginning to be that way.  Garrison environments should be the secondary use for a utility uniform, not the primary.

I can't agree with you more! 

Why the AF did not just adopt the ACU (but change the colors if they wanted) is mind-numbing.  How many years have AF personnel worn ACU's in Iraq/AFGH?  Like four??  Didn't the AF Times have  a poll on whether Airman deployed would rather have an ACU or ABU?  I think overwhelmingly, they came back and said ACU's. 

Now, I don't HATE the ABU, (never worn them), but taking BDU's and making them wash and wear without designing them for the war-fighter in mind was foolish.  It seems to me that it was designed as a "recruiting tool" for the AF.  As most uniforms are. 

I suppose in 2 years after the ABU has seen major sand-time we will then see the actually fallout from the AF decision.  Can't be any worse than the ass-stitching coming apart on the ACU's, right?   

I still think that it's just the Air Force's stubborn insistance that they had to have their own thing. I think the boots are a good example. Was there really anything wrong with wearing a tan boot? Not that I can think of, and I can think of a few reasons that it was a better option.

[NJMEDIC]

I too like the Idea, I like the Idea of one uniform also, but it must be distinctive, we have adopted a blue BDU, why not the Blue version of the ACU and allow a Black Gore Tex jacket (on the market and about $ 80.00 from BQM) the Velcro name tab and patches would save $$$.

[JayT]

I too like the Idea, I like the Idea of one uniform also, but it must be distinctive, we have adopted a blue BDU, why not the Blue version of the ACU and allow a Black Gore Tex jacket (on the market and about $ 80.00 from BQM) the Velcro name tab and patches would save $$$.

Because we're still an Air Force(y) organization. The reason why I don't like Colonel Bowdens suggestions, and yours, is that its completely different from what the Air Force wears. It's a different cut, different material, different boots, different tee shirt, different patter, differen't anything.

In a perfect word to me, we're go to the ABU, with a tan ABU cut uniform as a replacement for BlueDUs.

[RiverAux]

From what I've seen the vast majority of senior members participating in ground SAR are wearing the AF uniform right now.  I can think of only a couple of GT members in our wing wearing BBDUs, and frankly 1 of them is so obese that he should not be on a ground team no matter what uniform he is wearing.  That being the case, I see no need to repudiate our history by switching to accomodate those few people.  

[afgeo4]

- a chance for kids to wear real warrior clothes

Clothes do NOT make the Warrior. 

I serious hope you do not recruit on the basis of "hey kid you want to wear an Air Force uniform, and play Air Force".

and 12 year old kids aren't warriors, next point!

Playing "Air Force" is EXACTLY why we recruit cadets. It's exactly their mission. They get to learn followership, leadership, military drill, customs & courtesies, proper wear of USAF uniforms, aviation history, USAF history, perform operational tasks for the USAF and then hopefully attend AFROTC or USAFA. That's why they get the 10% of USAFA Prep slots. That's why they get the E-3 enlisting in the Air Force. That's why the Cadet Programs get funding from the Air Force. That's also why cadets specifically wear USAF style uniforms and not corporates. It surely isn't because these kids are playing "Coast Guard" or "Sheriff's Office" or "Cowboys and Indians".

[Dragoon]

You get it.

"Playing Air Force" isn't a phrase I'd use, but there IS some of that.  A young person is thrilled to become a Sergeant or a Captain - even if the word "cadet" is in front of the title. Wearing uniforms, acting military, getting the same titles as warriors - that IS part of our appeal to teenagers.

That's why I think taking cadets out of USAF uniforms is a bad idea - whether us old fogeys like it or not, the uniforms is a big part of our appeal.

[Dragoon]

From what I've seen the vast majority of senior members participating in ground SAR are wearing the AF uniform right now.  I can think of only a couple of GT members in our wing wearing BBDUs, and frankly 1 of them is so obese that he should not be on a ground team no matter what uniform he is wearing.  That being the case, I see no need to repudiate our history by switching to accomodate those few people.  

If it was just about GT, I'd agree, but it ain't.

People staff encampment in utility uniforms.  They work air shows in utility uniforms.  They do all kinds of non-ES stuff in utility uniforms.

We need a utility uniform for all our members, not just GT folks.

[JayT]

From what I've seen the vast majority of senior members participating in ground SAR are wearing the AF uniform right now.  I can think of only a couple of GT members in our wing wearing BBDUs, and frankly 1 of them is so obese that he should not be on a ground team no matter what uniform he is wearing.  That being the case, I see no need to repudiate our history by switching to accomodate those few people.  

First off, there is fifty one other wings. Second, you're not counting the number of guys who should be in the Blue BDUs (guys ten or twenty pounds over the limit.)

Third, GT work is just a small part of the program.

[RiverAux]

So, because some people aren't following the weight regulations, we all suffer for it.  That seems fair and sensible. 

This is all just a bunch of malarky since you folks who think it so important that all field uniforms be the same are still going to complain about all the other CAP uniform choices out there.  So, this won't solve your "problem" by any stretch.  Just alienate a bunch of folks and cost them money for no real benefit to the organization. 

[Dragoon]

I think there is value in uniformity.  Builds team identity, presents a better first impession to outsiders, etc.


Today's setup ain't real uniform - the Navy Blue collection doesn't blend at all with the woodland stuff, nor the green stuff.  The golf shirt isn't even close to the same style.  Headgear is all over the place.   We're missing out on the benefits of a uniform appearance.


Truthfully, I could care less about the service uniforms.  We could have a million of 'em to make folks happy. 

The critical time for teamwork and first impressions is on operational missions.  We really could benefit from something, anything, that helps in those situations.


If there is no value in uniformity, we could save everyone a load of money by saying you can wear whatever you want and just pin on a CAP badge on your pocket.

[Stonewall]

So, because some people aren't following the weight regulations, we all suffer for it.  That seems fair and sensible. 

This is all just a bunch of malarky since you folks who think it so important that all field uniforms be the same are still going to complain about all the other CAP uniform choices out there.  So, this won't solve your "problem" by any stretch.  Just alienate a bunch of folks and cost them money for no real benefit to the organization. 

Speaking of "malarky".

Look, regardless of what happens in the future, it will cost money.  And in the case that we go to ABUs, talk about spending money, you'll almost double the cost of the utility uniform, so right there your argument holds no weight.

As for the folks that you say aren't following the weight standards, who made you king and better than the rest?  CAP, in its infancy, was for those who couldn't otherwise serve in our nation's armed forces.  Too young, too old, too heavy, too handicap, or for whatever reason, chose not to.  In CAP, weight standards ARE NOT MANDATORY for members, it's only required if you choose to wear the AF style uniform.  There ARE NO WEIGHT standards to join CAP, nor are there grooming standards.

I think, Mr. Rivers, you are very caught up in wanting to wear a military uniform.  That's fine, I'd prefer it that way too.  However, I'm flexible in all directions.  I meet the physical, grooming and weight standards of the AF and still have the goal of total uniformity.  Your elitist attitude shows in almost every post in this thread.  Your arguments against a single uniform for all members are obvious in that you want everyone in CAP to be the same, slim and trim and looking as if they're actually serving in the military.  News for you buddy, that will never be the case.  Even in the real military you find folks on shaving profiles and lots and lots of people who don't even meet CAP weight standards let alone the military ones.  Yes, I've seen them on active duty and in the reserves.

You voted in this poll.  You've said your piece and demonstrated your total disgust for those in CAP who want one uniform.  You've also stated your feelings of insult that others want you to have to put down your BDUs and wear a different uniform, that may not make you look "air force".  Guess what, chances are you're discontent for my uniform idea or the thought of going to one uniform is futile, because in the end, we will most likely remain the same; ABUs for those that meet the requirements and some Scarlet Letter type uniform denouncing the "fat and fuzzy".  So stop getting worked up, in the end, you'll win.

[Dragoon]

Just an observation - not aimed at anyone in particular.  Honest.

In a lot of these discussions, we seem to get caught up in the endless debate between "what about ME?" and what about US?"

For example, if the uniform question is "What about ME?" then I naturally want to wear whatever makes me look the best, and impresses others with my incredible studliness.

But if you're a unit commander, then you might ask "What about US?"  And then you might see some value in having all of your folks in the same uniform. (others commanders might be worried folks will quit if a single uniform was required, but it's still about US not ME)


If the weight question is "What about ME?" then if you're thin, you want fat guys to shape up or quit. 

But if you're a unit commander, then you might ask "what about US?" because you've got a couple of fat guys/gals who are great assets, but you're pretty sure that they are gonna stay heavy for quite some time.


For my 2 cents, I believe in:

1.  A single, mandatory uniform, for teamwork's sake.  Even if that means it ain't my favorite suit. 
2.  Uniform outer garments, since they cover up the uniform underneath.
3.  Don't worry about weight - it's too hard to change.
4. A single set of grooming standards - unlike losing weight, 99% of folks could shave or cut their hair a bit in about 5 minutes..  This isn't a fashion contest.  (And for the 1% with medical issues, we could have waivers).

But Stonewall's right.  CAP wants your dues, so it will keep letting you wear whatever makes you feel good.  It really is all about YOU.

[mikeylikey]

For example, if the uniform question is "What about ME?" then I naturally want to wear whatever makes me look the best, and impresses others with my incredible studliness.

Actually I want to wear whatever makes me look sexier.  I am sure that is what is subconsciously going through many members minds as well.  Sexier=taken more seriously, Taken more seriously=feel better about ones self, feeling better about ones self=Awesome!