Grade of general in CAP

[I_Am_Twigs]

Recently a group of cadets and I were talking about CAP ranks and one of us had made the joke of becoming a general and rejoining the program. Then we all became curious as to how this would work if something like this could, or maybe has happened.

Let's say a lieutenant general (3 star) or general (4 star) join CAP, would they retain that grade, except with CAP insignia (which I'm pretty sure doesn't exist for that high of a grade, and would have to be custom made)?

[NIN]

Lt Col.

CAPR 35-5.

[Eclipse]

Yep - had / have some 1-stars in my wing, they are Lt Cols in CAP.

[lordmonar]

Lt Col.

CAPR 35-5.

Yep.  Flew with Gen (Col Boyed) in the Surrogate UAV program.   Good guy.

[THRAWN]

Had a retired 3 star former commander of WPAFB and AFMC vice commander in my squadron. He was a SM.

[PHall]

Had a retired 3 star former commander of WPAFB and AFMC vice commander in my squadron. He was a SM.

That sounds about right. Most retired general officers are pretty humble.

[lordmonar]

Also had an Active Duty General who was a member of my squadron.   He was just a CAP Lt Col.   Also heard stories of former Cols and Generals who refused any CAP promotions and were just 2nd Lts and SMWOG.  But that my just be wives tales.

[PHall]

Also had an Active Duty General who was a member of my squadron.   He was just a CAP Lt Col.   Also heard stories of former Cols and Generals who refused any CAP promotions and were just 2nd Lts and SMWOG.  But that my just be wives tales.

I've seen that happen. Guy was an O-7 in the ANG but was a Capt in CAP.
In CAP he could do what he couldn't do anymore in the ANG. Just be a pilot and fly.

[Mitchell 1969]

Not a General, but I knew a guy who was a Colonel in the Army and joined CAP on retirement. He was informed that he couldn't be a Colonel in CAP but was offered Lt Col. He declined, then asked "Can I have any rank I've ever held below Colonel?" He got an affirmative reply and said "Fine. I'm going to start at he bottom and work my way up, same as I did in the Army.

He went from SM to Staff Sergeant, Tech Sergeant, Master Sergeant...last time I saw him he was a First Lieutenant.


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[Fester]

Not a General, but I knew a guy who was a Colonel in the Army and joined CAP on retirement. He was informed that he couldn't be a Colonel in CAP but was offered Lt Col. He declined, then asked "Can I have any rank I've ever held below Colonel?" He got an affirmative reply and said "Fine. I'm going to start at he bottom and work my way up, same as I did in the Army.

He went from SM to Staff Sergeant, Tech Sergeant, Master Sergeant...last time I saw him he was a First Lieutenant.


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How is that possible?  I thought that CAP NCO ranks were only available to former AD NCOs??

[TheSkyHornet]

Not a General, but I knew a guy who was a Colonel in the Army and joined CAP on retirement. He was informed that he couldn't be a Colonel in CAP but was offered Lt Col. He declined, then asked "Can I have any rank I've ever held below Colonel?" He got an affirmative reply and said "Fine. I'm going to start at he bottom and work my way up, same as I did in the Army.

He went from SM to Staff Sergeant, Tech Sergeant, Master Sergeant...last time I saw him he was a First Lieutenant.


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How is that possible?  I thought that CAP NCO ranks were only available to former AD NCOs??

If he previously held an NCO grade, he's eligible.

The CAP regs don't specify that you must have been an NCO and only an NCO (never commissioning). So, technically, under the new system, if you enlisted, hit E-4, then went through OCS and commissioned as an O-1, you're eligible to wear CAP NCO stripes.

And you don't need to be Active Duty. National Guard and Reserve duty are also eligible.

[jhighman]

Back in the day, we had a retired Air Force O-5 who put on CMSgt chevrons. There was no NCO program back then so nobody seemed to mind. Everyone from CAP-USAF, Wing CC and down all knew him as Chief.

[BHeck73]

I'd have to look, while the regs say e-5, I know an E-4 who was a CAP 2Lt, petitioned national, and became a CAP SSgt. He is now a TSgt.

I believe his rational was depending on actual billet, E-4 is (can be) and NCO.  I guess, at least in his case, National Approved.  Incidentally he was a Specialist, and not a Corporal.

On the main topic, the OKWG commander in the early 90's was a retired USAF 3-star, and came in as a Lt. Col., just as regs state.

[Ozzy]

Not a General, but I knew a guy who was a Colonel in the Army and joined CAP on retirement. He was informed that he couldn't be a Colonel in CAP but was offered Lt Col. He declined, then asked "Can I have any rank I've ever held below Colonel?" He got an affirmative reply and said "Fine. I'm going to start at he bottom and work my way up, same as I did in the Army.

He went from SM to Staff Sergeant, Tech Sergeant, Master Sergeant...last time I saw him he was a First Lieutenant.


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How is that possible?  I thought that CAP NCO ranks were only available to former AD NCOs??

Currently (And previously) any RM E-4 to E-9 can go the NCO route in CAP. Officers are not eligible unless they were prior enlisted and had made E-4. This goes for Active Duty, Reserves, and National Guard. State Guard grades are not eligible.

If an O-5 did come over to CAP and put on chevrons, hopefully he was a "Mustang" officer. The NCO "program" back in the day consisted of whatever your RM NCO grade was, you could wear the AF equivalent of it on CAP uniforms. No promotions unless you were promoted in the RM. So if an O-5 did come over and just decided to wear Chief... well I'd consider it a core values issue if he wasn't ever an E-9.

[Ned]

Interesting.  For the last two years of ROTC, I had an armed forces ID card from Uncle Sam that said I was an E-5, despite being non-prior service.   I think this was a tool to remind all of us to study hard, graduate on time, and get commissioned.  (Or in the alternative enter active duty as an E-5.)  I actually got paid as an E5 for my National Guard drills while participating as an ROTC/SMP cadet.

Does this mean I could be a CAP Staff Sergeant? 

It's always nice to have a back-up.   

[TheSkyHornet]

Interesting.  For the last two years of ROTC, I had an armed forces ID card from Uncle Sam that said I was an E-5, despite being non-prior service.   I think this was a tool to remind all of us to study hard, graduate on time, and get commissioned.  (Or in the alternative enter active duty as an E-5.)  I actually got paid as an E5 for my National Guard drills while participating as an ROTC/SMP cadet.

Does this mean I could be a CAP Staff Sergeant? 

It's always nice to have a back-up.   

All contracted reserve officers and officer candidates are E-5 grades. If you were to go through Officer Candidate School, you'd be an E-5 on your paperwork.

[MacGruff]

PA wing has a two-star retired army general who was recently demoted to Lt. Col. His wife joined CAP at the same time. She is a full-bird Colonel in the Air Force Reserves and still gets called up regularly. She got demoted to Lt. Col. in the same ceremony. They are both very happy to serve in a squadron.

[Ozzy]

Interesting.  For the last two years of ROTC, I had an armed forces ID card from Uncle Sam that said I was an E-5, despite being non-prior service.   I think this was a tool to remind all of us to study hard, graduate on time, and get commissioned.  (Or in the alternative enter active duty as an E-5.)  I actually got paid as an E5 for my National Guard drills while participating as an ROTC/SMP cadet.

Does this mean I could be a CAP Staff Sergeant? 

It's always nice to have a back-up.   

I don't think so, the reg states this:

6.2. Initial Eligibility Requirements.
6.2.1. Currently, those CAP members who are military or former military NCOs and do not wish to be considered for CAP officer grades may be appointed to a CAP NCO grade under provisions of this section. The CAP initial grade granted will be equivalent to the grade held in the active duty military, Reserve or National Guard. Current or former military members holding the grade E-4 that wish to hold a CAP NCO grade will be appointed to the grade of SSgt after completion of Level I. NOTE: NCOs desiring to enter the officer program must satisfy the requirements outlined in paragraph 1.6. and any additional requirements the type of promotion being requested may require."

As an ROTC cadet/Officer Candidate with the pay grade of E-5, it doesn't make you a NCO. Honestly the CAP regulation is a bit confusing and maybe be interpreted a few different ways...

Anyways, Army ROTC cadets that are get kicked out and then enrolled onto the enlisted side would go in as an E-1 per AR 135-210 section 2.13 b.  I assume it would be about the same for the other branches.

[Ned]

As an ROTC cadet/Officer Candidate with the pay grade of E-5, it doesn't make you a NCO.

Darn.  I was hoping for the street cred.

[abdsp51]

Interesting.  For the last two years of ROTC, I had an armed forces ID card from Uncle Sam that said I was an E-5, despite being non-prior service.   I think this was a tool to remind all of us to study hard, graduate on time, and get commissioned.  (Or in the alternative enter active duty as an E-5.)  I actually got paid as an E5 for my National Guard drills while participating as an ROTC/SMP cadet.

Does this mean I could be a CAP Staff Sergeant? 

It's always nice to have a back-up.   

I don't think so, the reg states this:

6.2. Initial Eligibility Requirements.
6.2.1. Currently, those CAP members who are military or former military NCOs and do not wish to be considered for CAP officer grades may be appointed to a CAP NCO grade under provisions of this section. The CAP initial grade granted will be equivalent to the grade held in the active duty military, Reserve or National Guard. Current or former military members holding the grade E-4 that wish to hold a CAP NCO grade will be appointed to the grade of SSgt after completion of Level I. NOTE: NCOs desiring to enter the officer program must satisfy the requirements outlined in paragraph 1.6. and any additional requirements the type of promotion being requested may require."

As an ROTC cadet/Officer Candidate with the pay grade of E-5, it doesn't make you a NCO. Honestly the CAP regulation is a bit confusing and maybe be interpreted a few different ways...

Anyways, Army ROTC cadets that are get kicked out and then enrolled onto the enlisted side would go in as an E-1 per AR 135-210 section 2.13 b.  I assume it would be about the same for the other branches.

Not true.  I know a guy 20 years ago who washed out of some officer training and started off as a SrA. 

[MSG Mac]

Interesting.  For the last two years of ROTC, I had an armed forces ID card from Uncle Sam that said I was an E-5, despite being non-prior service.   I think this was a tool to remind all of us to study hard, graduate on time, and get commissioned.  (Or in the alternative enter active duty as an E-5.)  I actually got paid as an E5 for my National Guard drills while participating as an ROTC/SMP cadet.

Does this mean I could be a CAP Staff Sergeant? 

It's always nice to have a back-up.   

I don't think so, the reg states this:

6.2. Initial Eligibility Requirements.
6.2.1. Currently, those CAP members who are military or former military NCOs and do not wish to be considered for CAP officer grades may be appointed to a CAP NCO grade under provisions of this section. The CAP initial grade granted will be equivalent to the grade held in the active duty military, Reserve or National Guard. Current or former military members holding the grade E-4 that wish to hold a CAP NCO grade will be appointed to the grade of SSgt after completion of Level I. NOTE: NCOs desiring to enter the officer program must satisfy the requirements outlined in paragraph 1.6. and any additional requirements the type of promotion being requested may require."

As an ROTC cadet/Officer Candidate with the pay grade of E-5, it doesn't make you a NCO. Honestly the CAP regulation is a bit confusing and maybe be interpreted a few different ways...

Anyways, Army ROTC cadets that are get kicked out and then enrolled onto the enlisted side would go in as an E-1 per AR 135-210 section 2.13 b.  I assume it would be about the same for the other branches.

Not true.  I know a guy 20 years ago who washed out of some officer training and started off as a SrA.

Probably had a MItchell Award, Eagle Scout or obviously some college credits. All of which bring higher grade upon enlisting.

[Ozzy]

Interesting.  For the last two years of ROTC, I had an armed forces ID card from Uncle Sam that said I was an E-5, despite being non-prior service.   I think this was a tool to remind all of us to study hard, graduate on time, and get commissioned.  (Or in the alternative enter active duty as an E-5.)  I actually got paid as an E5 for my National Guard drills while participating as an ROTC/SMP cadet.

Does this mean I could be a CAP Staff Sergeant? 

It's always nice to have a back-up.   

I don't think so, the reg states this:

6.2. Initial Eligibility Requirements.
6.2.1. Currently, those CAP members who are military or former military NCOs and do not wish to be considered for CAP officer grades may be appointed to a CAP NCO grade under provisions of this section. The CAP initial grade granted will be equivalent to the grade held in the active duty military, Reserve or National Guard. Current or former military members holding the grade E-4 that wish to hold a CAP NCO grade will be appointed to the grade of SSgt after completion of Level I. NOTE: NCOs desiring to enter the officer program must satisfy the requirements outlined in paragraph 1.6. and any additional requirements the type of promotion being requested may require."

As an ROTC cadet/Officer Candidate with the pay grade of E-5, it doesn't make you a NCO. Honestly the CAP regulation is a bit confusing and maybe be interpreted a few different ways...

Anyways, Army ROTC cadets that are get kicked out and then enrolled onto the enlisted side would go in as an E-1 per AR 135-210 section 2.13 b.  I assume it would be about the same for the other branches.

Not true.  I know a guy 20 years ago who washed out of some officer training and started off as a SrA.

Which officer training? If it was OCS, then he was prior enlisted so he would go to the grade he was before officer training. A contracted/scholarship cadet that wasn't prior service did not have a higher grade to revert to, and advanced grade is a recruiting tool meant to entice civilians into joining... what incentive is needed for someone who is already obligated to enlist?

[Fester]

Not a General, but I knew a guy who was a Colonel in the Army and joined CAP on retirement. He was informed that he couldn't be a Colonel in CAP but was offered Lt Col. He declined, then asked "Can I have any rank I've ever held below Colonel?" He got an affirmative reply and said "Fine. I'm going to start at he bottom and work my way up, same as I did in the Army.

He went from SM to Staff Sergeant, Tech Sergeant, Master Sergeant...last time I saw him he was a First Lieutenant.


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How is that possible?  I thought that CAP NCO ranks were only available to former AD NCOs??

If he previously held an NCO grade, he's eligible.

The CAP regs don't specify that you must have been an NCO and only an NCO (never commissioning). So, technically, under the new system, if you enlisted, hit E-4, then went through OCS and commissioned as an O-1, you're eligible to wear CAP NCO stripes.

And you don't need to be Active Duty. National Guard and Reserve duty are also eligible.

I guess it is possible.  How long was he in?  I know several previously enlisted men who ended up as officers.  My dad being one.  Enlisted USMC for 3 years, college and ROTC, commissioned.  Spent 20 years AD AF.  Retired as an O-4.   Of the others I know, the highest grade earned was O-5.

[Mitchell 1969]

Not a General, but I knew a guy who was a Colonel in the Army and joined CAP on retirement. He was informed that he couldn't be a Colonel in CAP but was offered Lt Col. He declined, then asked "Can I have any rank I've ever held below Colonel?" He got an affirmative reply and said "Fine. I'm going to start at he bottom and work my way up, same as I did in the Army.

He went from SM to Staff Sergeant, Tech Sergeant, Master Sergeant...last time I saw him he was a First Lieutenant.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

How is that possible?  I thought that CAP NCO ranks were only available to former AD NCOs??

He was a "Mustang," both a former NCO and a former commissioned officer. He rose from Private in the Army to Colonel.


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[GroundHawg]

Just playing devils advocate here.

Technically, an ROTC Cadet outranks an E-9. So, if a Cadet were to go into the CAP NCO program, wouldn't they be able to take a demotion down to Chief? 

[MSgt Van]

How does a cadet of any type outrank active duty military?

[Shuman 14]

When I was a contracted Cadet (Many Moons Ago) my Pink ID Card read "CT-5", which stood for Cadet, Pay Grade E-5. There were even a few CT-6 running around back then. They were Staff Sergeants (E-6) who were dual status Guard/Reserve and ROTC Cadets, they got to keep their pay grade.

At least in the Army, this is where Cadets fall in the rank Structure:

Second Lieutenant (O-1)

Cadet (USMA)

Cadet (ROTC)

Officer Candidate (OCS)

Chief Warrant Officer, Five

Chief Warrant Officer, Four

Chief Warrant Officer, Three

Chief Warrant Officer

Warrant Officer

Warrant Officer Candidate

Sergeant Major / Command Sergeant Major

[Shuman 14]

How does a cadet of any type outrank active duty military?

Regulations.

A 2LT out ranks a CSM but he/she would be wise to follow their "suggestions" when presented. 

[SemperVigHooah]

Interesting.  For the last two years of ROTC, I had an armed forces ID card from Uncle Sam that said I was an E-5, despite being non-prior service.   I think this was a tool to remind all of us to study hard, graduate on time, and get commissioned.  (Or in the alternative enter active duty as an E-5.)  I actually got paid as an E5 for my National Guard drills while participating as an ROTC/SMP cadet.

Does this mean I could be a CAP Staff Sergeant? 

It's always nice to have a back-up.   

I don't think so, the reg states this:

6.2. Initial Eligibility Requirements.
6.2.1. Currently, those CAP members who are military or former military NCOs and do not wish to be considered for CAP officer grades may be appointed to a CAP NCO grade under provisions of this section. The CAP initial grade granted will be equivalent to the grade held in the active duty military, Reserve or National Guard. Current or former military members holding the grade E-4 that wish to hold a CAP NCO grade will be appointed to the grade of SSgt after completion of Level I. NOTE: NCOs desiring to enter the officer program must satisfy the requirements outlined in paragraph 1.6. and any additional requirements the type of promotion being requested may require."

As an ROTC cadet/Officer Candidate with the pay grade of E-5, it doesn't make you a NCO. Honestly the CAP regulation is a bit confusing and maybe be interpreted a few different ways...

Anyways, Army ROTC cadets that are get kicked out and then enrolled onto the enlisted side would go in as an E-1 per AR 135-210 section 2.13 b.  I assume it would be about the same for the other branches.

Not true.  I know a guy 20 years ago who washed out of some officer training and started off as a SrA.

Probably had a MItchell Award, Eagle Scout or obviously some college credits. All of which bring higher grade upon enlisting.

As far as I know, advanced grade upon enlisting is only up to E-3, and that's if you are either an eagle scout, have college creds or have earned their Mitchell, in which case you are correct. But the day you can become an E-4 after basic in tech school for the AF, I'm earning my mitchell ASAP 

[TheSkyHornet]

How does a cadet of any type outrank active duty military?

Regulations.

[Ozzy]

Just playing devils advocate here.

Technically, an ROTC Cadet outranks an E-9. So, if a Cadet were to go into the CAP NCO program, wouldn't they be able to take a demotion down to Chief? 

You are thinking that the military rank structure is the same as the CAP cadet program's. It isn't. The enlisted and officer rank structures are two separate entities.

Cadets may have the pay grade of E-5, but they are not NCOs. Just like a Specialist and a Corporal are E-4s but one is an NCO and the other is not. Paid the same, but has different roles and responsibilities.

[GroundHawg]

Just playing devils advocate here.

Technically, an ROTC Cadet outranks an E-9. So, if a Cadet were to go into the CAP NCO program, wouldn't they be able to take a demotion down to Chief? 

You are thinking that the military rank structure is the same as the CAP cadet program's. It isn't. The enlisted and officer rank structures are two separate entities.

Cadets may have the pay grade of E-5, but they are not NCOs. Just like a Specialist and a Corporal are E-4s but one is an NCO and the other is not. Paid the same, but has different roles and responsibilities.

It was a joke. I put an emoji and everything....

[THRAWN]

Guess nobody ever read STARSHIP TROOPERS. Crystal clear explanation of the role of the Cadet in the military structure.