CAP Talk

Effective immediately and continuing during this off year a group of dedicated individuals from each region and our NHQ staff will take a hard look at how we can best reorganize this premier CAP National Cadet Special Activity.

The primary rationale for this strategic pause is funding and an overall restructure so we can include more cadets at all levels of competition.  NCC, in its current format is an expensive program for our organization. Despite significant internal restructuring to the schedule, competition location and the Staff's creative measures, NCC has become one of the most expensive cadet activities, with CAP National Headquarters executing a budget of nearly $130,000 annually from an ever-tightening budget for national cadet activities. Unfortunately, financial realities drive cadet activity decisions to a large extent.

Zoinks.
That's 2,600 o-flights, eh?

$130k!!!!!???

Priced airline tickets lately? Round trip SAN-DAY right now is $435 per person. If you send 6 for the color guard, that's $2610 per team, times 8, for $21,000 (rounded). I'm going to estimate an average of 16 for drill teams, for a total of $56,000. That's just air fares. Yes, I know some teams can drive, but gas ain't cheap either. Now we're up to $77,000. Now add in berthing for close to 200 people, at an estimated incredibly cheap price of $30/night, for a week, at $42,000, and now you're up to $119,000. I'll bet that's closer to $130,000 than you thought it was going to be.

Now, a2capt, fill in the real numbers for people count, berthing cost, and room nights, and see what the new total is.

$130k is only the start.  Probably more like $200k+ when you factor in what the wings are spending to field a competition-level team ($10-15K each).
That's a pretty big chunk of cash when you consider the average active wing has an ES / OPS Training budget of about $25k a year, and the
typical encampment budget is in the $10K range.

The somewhat all-too-common disciplinary issues with NCC, especially DT, cadets who believe they are "special" is a nice value-add to all the money spent.

2600 O-Rides?  How about free encampment for every interested cadet and senior in CAP?

This activity has had a far too narrow audience for far too long, and caused far too much background noise to be sustained in its current form.  NHQ
has been unable to articulate the value to Unit Commanders, leading to essentially zero interest in my wing, and as far as I know, this is pretty common, we are not unique.

Obviously there are a number of members who feel passionately about this activity, but there will be more then a few who will not be sorry to
see it "paused", perhaps permanently.

If it's ever to come back, it needs to be refocused on local participation and value, with the primary intention of getting CG teams up and functional
at each unit, not just ramping up random cadets as a wing team for the sole purpose of the NCC.

The DTs, AFAIC, can be allowed to fade gently into the night.

OK, I miss-guestimated room nights. It should be three instead of six or seven. But I'm probably low on the room cost, so it will probably even.

I guess Ill join back up and just wear only my NCC ribbon with the stars on it since Ill be a dying breed!

Since I have been involved with NCC for almost 10 years, both as a DT escort and as staff, my opinions on the worth of NCC have been voiced before.  I would substitute a competitive event over encampment any day.

The prevailing thought among us region DCS is that the wing and region competitions will go on, presuming of course Wings still participate.  Once you take a year to two off, getting back into the swing will be very difficult.

Quote from: Bluelakes 13 on August 14, 2013, 02:42:40 PM
Since I have been involved with NCC for almost 10 years, both as a DT escort and as staff, my opinions on the worth of NCC have been voiced before.  I would substitute a competitive event over encampment any day.

The prevailing thought among us region DCS is that the wing and region competitions will go on, presuming of course Wings still participate.  Once you take a year to two off, getting back into the swing will be very difficult.

Wouldn't be "hard" to start getting it back on track. Begin with Banning tailored body fitting uniforms, and there's thousands in savings.

LOL - the cost of tailored uniforms, which are local costs BTW, are insignificant to the NHQ cost of travel.

My recommendation was move NCC to a central location where each corner of CONUS has an equal drive, and teams pay their travel.

Of course, that's just one man's opinion...

Quote from: Bluelakes 13 on August 14, 2013, 03:03:57 PM
LOL - the cost of tailored uniforms, which are local costs BTW, are insignificant to the NHQ cost of travel.

My recommendation was move NCC to a central location where each corner of CONUS has an equal drive, and teams pay their travel.

Of course, that's just one man's opinion...

No doubt, but it's a start to change the mentality. As for a central event...no matter where it is, the further out the team is, the more expensive it is. Maybe time would be better spend finding corporate sponsors? Slap some CocaColas on some flags, Red parade rifles, a Coke bottle trophy. You get the point.  >:D

This is a repost of something I just said on FB, and likely can be said here as well:

Quote
I will likely generate a little bit of hate & discontent with this comment, but if you think about the number of cadets NCC directly impacted (the 160 or so on winning region teams who travel to wherever to compete) versus its cost, I think most folks would agree that in its present incarnation NCC's goals, focus, and execution need some re-examination in light of the budget crunch we find ourselves under.

Yes, NCC as a "whole program" (not just the "national" NCC event) impacts far more than those 160 cadets (ie. every team that competes at Wing, Region, etc). But also think about a) how many NCC teams come from the same squadron year after year after year; b) how many sometimes compete at the Group or Wing level with ZERO competition from another unit; c) how much NCC has become a "Kabuki Theater" of cadet programs.

When you really get down to it, participating in some sort of "NCC feeder competition" (group, wing, region) only involves probably 1500 - 2500 cadets total nationwide (and I think I'm being pretty generous). Thats 6-10% of the cadet membership, tops.

I know some wings with 30 or 40 squadrons across 5 or 6 groups and their wing competition is 2 perennial teams going at it with each other. Everybody else is either "Why bother, XYZ squadron always wins" or "We don't have 1/10th the resources to beat them ..."

If NCC was something that EVERY squadron did, different matter. But even in large wings NCC impacts only a small percentage of the membership, and in a lot of ways is a huge distraction to the Cadet Program.

How many cadets on NCC teams have you seen with *incredible* "NCC-only" uniforms but their uniform/shoes/accessories for weekly wear look like garbage? Really? Cadet Jones can't afford a new pair of shoes to replace those shabby ones he's wearing to squadron meetings, but he's got a nice pair of corframs that are "NCC only!" and see pavement 4 times a year, tops.

Honestly, the $130,000 spent on NCC each year would bring us 2600 more orientation flights. How's that for impact? That puts the "AIR" in "Civil Air Patrol."

I'm all for competition, but the cost of the program versus per-cadet impact (or worse, deleterious effects)  is pretty high.  NCC has needed a "reset" for awhile, IMHO.

Friend request sent. :)

It's not necessarily the destination, but the journey. 

I think folks that say that NCC affects only x cadets are missing the big picture. 

EVERY unit should be competing, at least in the CG competitions locally. Why?  Because to compete the cadets need to
   Study the leadership and AE manuals for the Panel Quiz and Written Exam (already needed for promotion)
   Work on their Mile Run times (again for promotion)
   Work on their flag presentation skills (units should be very active in parades, VFWs, etc, anyway)
   Work on drill, repeatedly (why should units drill?  If you do not know the answer, oh well)


Every single event of the Competition itemized above is what every unit with a CG should do anyway.  Time and money is well spent.

If you want to argue the benefit of Drill Teams, that's another story, although much of the above applied to them too.

Yes, every unit should have a Color Guard - to post colors.   It doesn't need to be, nor should it be, a competition.

As to the Drill Teams?  Little purpose in CAP, except to foster more undeserved elitism, waste money, and burn time better
spent elsewhere.

It's one thing if you a have fully funded, staffed, and functional organization that is so busy and top-heavy with members
that yo have to find alternative outlets for various requirements, however CAP hasn't been that for a decade, possibly two,
and as is, the NCC competes t the detriment of a lot of other programs that are directly cogent to the program and curricula
itself.

It went from being an extracurricular "nice to have" to being the sole focus and only point of participation for a lot of seniors
and far too many cadets, missing the point of both the cadet program and the NCC itself.

This is what I would like to see in the NCC.

Each WING sends a CG and DT to the week long comp.

Each wing pays it's own way for their teams.

That way NHQ is not spending $130K on the event, more cadets participate in the NCSA on the national level.

Yes....that makes the event that much bigger....but it also makes it that much more of impressive event for the cadets.

While we're at it, I get that "back in the day" PT was just the mile run, but why not expand NCC to be just like the current test? Pushups, situps, sit and reach +mile.

How about a 5 year moratorium on competition where:

Each unit that has cadets must put together an active Color Guard, and / or >all< cadets are required to complete
time on a unit CG as part of one or more achievements.

If Drill Teams are still considered necessary and viable, no wing "super teams", all teams must be registered as a "team", and
may not comprise any cadets or staff outside a single Group.  That insures that everyone is "local" (relatively speaking), and
has a vested interest without unduly competing with other activities in the wing.

Prohibit custom tailored uniforms, professional coaches, and other similar nonsense.

Once you have a viable program where the focus is back where it belongs, you can then discuss >if< competitions have any value, and
how to restart the program, with the added benefit of the registered teams and programs simply sending their best to the mix without
having to do a re-boot every fiscal year and pretending there is enough interest that the competitions are anything more then a
1-2-3 line up of the three teams that showed up.

Or, take it the way of HGA, and make it a regional event.

Quote from: usafaux2004 on August 14, 2013, 05:27:53 PM
Or, take it the way of HGA, and make it a regional event.

They really screwed the pooch on that one, thinking they could condense a 2-week activity into a weekend event.

There's 7 per Color Guard team, 5 cadets, (3 + Commander, + Alternate) two seniors, at the latest revision of the last few years.  In the earlier 2000's, there were two alternates on Color Guard, though NHQ did not pay for the travel. That's only been the last 6 or so years.  In fact, early on, you were even lucky to get there and get a -beater- vehicle, if one at all. Those old blue vans from the AF.. 

A drill team is 14, plus two. (12 + Commander, + Alternate)

This year, the event was done with three room nights, and six meals at the university, two meals provided by the Air Force, flight lunch style. 

It was nothing like the long drawn out week's worth activity that it had morphed into. Believe it or not, there's value in that, too. The cadets get to know each other, and get to socialize a bit. But it's a hard sell unless you experienced it, I'll admit.

From 1948 through 1965, they'd done NCC at various locations around the country, settling for the last several years on the Air Force Academy from 1960 onward.

1966 to 1975 there was no national competition. Those cadets on Facebook posting the "1947-2013 R.I.P." banner are factually incorrect.  It's not without precedent that NCC has been paused.

Again, in 2000 there was no competition.

Up until 1999, they had pretty much done NCC at Maxwell, and Ellington previously.

in 2001 they started a rotation of every two years they'd move it. That way you'd get twice as much bang for your buck, time and resources with planning the event, the needed venues, and the like, you could use the majority of the planning for two years.  Plus it moved it around, gave variance to the venues, gave "the home team advantage" a break, as it was not always in the same climate, locale, etc.

That worked pretty well it would seem, until late last year when they still had not announced the location, nor dates for the 2013 event. It was not until April that it was finally signed, and even then it wasn't really communicated well. Since it was so late, you've got to figure they had a schedule from the year prior, they just went with it, at the same venue, but done more along the schedule of the typical Wing or Region event where the whole thing is pretty much done in two days. If you use the arrival day for the written exam, you can do that and run eight teams.

Consequently, the team marshaling has -a lot- to do with it, and this year, despite the compressed schedule, the events went the smoothest and most efficient ever, with regards to running the teams through the events.

Dorms at the university are about $30/day, that's a good number to go with, and it's consistent with an event I organize each July where I get two floors of a dorm hall in Kansas City, for 5 nights, plus meals are about $19/day.

So, $50/day per person, plus you've got staff in the 40 range for the entire event, that will come in a day early at least. As they did this year.

Quote from: HGjunkie on August 14, 2013, 05:29:11 PM

Quote from: usafaux2004 on August 14, 2013, 05:27:53 PM
Or, take it the way of HGA, and make it a regional event.

They really screwed the pooch on that one, thinking they could condense a 2-week activity into a weekend event.

That can be supplemented by a local program as well.

Quote from: Bluelakes 13 on August 14, 2013, 02:42:40 PMI would substitute a competitive event over encampment any day.

Well that just depends on what you think the mission of the cadet program is...
If it's to get people to stand REALLY still, and have REALLY sharp timing, and REALLY shiny shoes, and REALLLY creased creases,
then competition is the way to go.

On the other hand, that's REALLY not what the cadet program is about.  at all.
Those are basic airman skillz that we should move past after the first 8 months, for bigger and better things.
(a cadet NCO or officer focusing on those things, apart from teaching it to c/ab-c/sra, is "doing it wrong")

+1 and also the below.

Quote from: usafaux2004 on August 14, 2013, 05:31:56 PM
That can be supplemented by a local program as well.

As well it should.  HGA was another program where cadets went away to something few people understood,
and then came back with little to show in terms of useful skills for the unit and a shiny cord.

These activities live and die by two factors:

NHQ's ability to communicate their importance and mission relevance to Unit CC's.

Their actual relevance to the mission.

Regardless of personal feelings about a particular activity, when one or both of the above fails, the activity is doomed.

Quote from: coudano on August 14, 2013, 05:42:25 PM

Quote from: Bluelakes 13 on August 14, 2013, 02:42:40 PMI would substitute a competitive event over encampment any day.

Well that just depends on what you think the mission of the cadet program is...
If it's to get people to stand REALLY still, and have REALLY sharp timing, and REALLY shiny shoes, and REALLLY creased creases,
then competition is the way to go.

On the other hand, that's REALLY not what the cadet program is about.  at all.
Those are basic airman skillz that we should move past after the first 8 months, for bigger and better things.
(a cadet NCO or officer focusing on those things, apart from teaching it to c/ab-c/sra, is "doing it wrong")

I know I took us off topic a bit, but that was in response to Honor Guard Programs.

That said, most of what Honor Guard did was Fancy Color Guard.

Sure, there are some places that did/do Funerals. My flight in 2005 won the DDR Play Award (and that was the last time I did a DDR play, which apparently is a CAP HG mission...). Some places do cordons (maybe).

But the core of Honor Guard is what Color Guards do.

If we want to kill one or the other, I could care less. While I personally loved the fancy rifle movements, I never did a presentation outside the one we did at the home unit after we came back. Still cool, but never really found a local outlet for it.

Parades, Ceremonies, etc, can be done in either HG uniforms or in regular blues as a simple CG. No biggie. Then there's the issue of different movements as opposed to standard drill, and now you have a duality of the same mission.

Wait...  NHQ has been paying for travel/lodging for everyone?!?!

Why not have teams pay/fund raise their own way, like almost every other CAP event?  I'm shocked to hear that we were paying for participants!  I understand and support paying expenses for event staff, but not for participants... 

Quote from: Eclipse on August 14, 2013, 05:15:47 PM
Each unit that has cadets must put together an active Color Guard, and / or >all< cadets are required to complete time on a unit CG as part of one or more achievements.

I like this idea, but not necessarily as a specific mandate for all cadets. I think this is one "outside-the-meeting" activity that should be considered as part of "active participation." It's challenging to provide enough time for the cadets to really get good at drill and meet the CP contact hours.

FWIW, my squadron does not have a CG although we are about to start one up. I am gathering adult/SM volunteers so that I can provide practice time outside the meeting with the appropriate supervision.

Quote from: Woodsy on August 14, 2013, 06:39:37 PMWait...  NHQ has been paying for travel/lodging for everyone?!?!

Why not have teams pay/fund raise their own way, like almost every other CAP event?  I'm shocked to hear that we were paying for participants!  I understand and support paying expenses for event staff, but not for participants...

Like you noted, there is precedent.  It's not like it was a secret.  Yes, perhaps they should make it more like school band competitions where as part of the competition, they need to typically raise funds to go higher up. Wing and in some cases, Region, are simple. Get a van and drive, barracks are cheap. Bring money for about 6 meals at the mess hall.

Quote from: doodah5 on August 14, 2013, 06:44:49 PM

Quote from: Eclipse on August 14, 2013, 05:15:47 PM
Each unit that has cadets must put together an active Color Guard, and / or >all< cadets are required to complete time on a unit CG as part of one or more achievements.

I like this idea, but not necessarily as a specific mandate for all cadets. I think this is one "outside-the-meeting" activity that should be considered as part of "active participation." It's challenging to provide enough time for the cadets to really get good at drill and meet the CP contact hours.

FWIW, my squadron does not have a CG although we are about to start one up. I am gathering adult/SM volunteers so that I can provide practice time outside the meeting with the appropriate supervision.

I do.

I think that we need to add the color guard drill as part of the SNCO promotion tests....instead of the parade stuff that they have now.

I think outside CG presentations should be a Quality Unit and Squadron of Merit/Distinction grading points.

Quote from: lordmonar on August 14, 2013, 07:22:47 PM

Quote from: doodah5 on August 14, 2013, 06:44:49 PM

Quote from: Eclipse on August 14, 2013, 05:15:47 PM
Each unit that has cadets must put together an active Color Guard, and / or >all< cadets are required to complete time on a unit CG as part of one or more achievements.

I like this idea, but not necessarily as a specific mandate for all cadets. I think this is one "outside-the-meeting" activity that should be considered as part of "active participation." It's challenging to provide enough time for the cadets to really get good at drill and meet the CP contact hours.

FWIW, my squadron does not have a CG although we are about to start one up. I am gathering adult/SM volunteers so that I can provide practice time outside the meeting with the appropriate supervision.

I do.

I think that we need to add the color guard drill as part of the SNCO promotion tests....instead of the parade stuff that they have now.

I think outside CG presentations should be a Quality Unit and Squadron of Merit/Distinction grading points.

While I agree to an extent, I have a feeling the quality of these "presentations" will be hard to prove.

The 1966-1975 "hiatus" on National Drill Competition probably had roots in transportation issues. It was common for CAP to get USAF airlift for major activities and the Vietnam War put a crimp on that.

Even so, drill comps still happened at wing and maybe region levels. I recall several squadrons and even a group in CA that were known for drill comp being their primary activity. Pretty much every waking moment dedicated to drill team.

Looking back, looking around and looking forward, I find myself questioning the large-scale usefulness and practicality of NCC and local versions leading up to NCC. Sure, drill is important, so are the PT and academic components. But is the obsession and financial hit really worth it? The end products are precision drill teams that return home with trophies and then....gets ready for next NCC? They can certainly enter local parades, but they become one entry in a long line of entries that start at one point and end up at another. A well-drilled local unit can prepare for that without ever seeing NCC.

I just realized - my cadet "career" was 1967-1973. Right smack in the middle of the 1966-1975 hiatus. Maybe that is tempering my view. At any rate, I never missed the absence of a national level drill competition and I don't think I suffered for it.

Quality?

It would be easy to prove.......wing/region/national will have to visit the units and see for themselves.

130k? Wow...

Maybe use that money to hire back a CP shop guy at national and really expand things like other NCSA's and the new encampment program that seems to be on pause.

Quote from: lordmonar on August 14, 2013, 07:27:08 PM
Quality?

It would be easy to prove.......wing/region/national will have to visit the units and see for themselves.

"Quality" is irrelevant until there is some quantity.

Just like cadet promotions, testing, etc., some objective criteria could be set, and the CG graded on the criteria.
Nuance comes much, much later after simply having one.

I'd go further and say it should be an SUI and CI item.

Quote from: lordmonar on August 14, 2013, 05:01:56 PM
...

Each wing pays it's own way for their teams.

That way NHQ is not spending $130K on the event, more cadets participate in the NCSA on the national level.

This doesn't change anything.  "Wing" and "NHQ" are really the same.  NHQ says, "Wings, you're responsible for sending your teams to NCC."  Wing says, "NHQ, we need $10k in next years budget to send our teams to NCC."

Unless the money is coming from external sources, it's still CAP spending $130k on NCC.

Perhaps yes, perhaps no.

Wing X might say "you won that, you need to raise some funds to offset your expenses".  Or they might have alternate sources of funding, and be totally flush in that area.

As for every wing sending a team or two? CG & DT, that would be a heck of an event. 1196 beds, meals, etc.  If everyone was represented, and that's just the competitors.

Quote from: jimmydeanno on August 14, 2013, 10:07:54 PM

Quote from: lordmonar on August 14, 2013, 05:01:56 PM
...

Each wing pays it's own way for their teams.

That way NHQ is not spending $130K on the event, more cadets participate in the NCSA on the national level.

This doesn't change anything.  "Wing" and "NHQ" are really the same.  NHQ says, "Wings, you're responsible for sending your teams to NCC."  Wing says, "NHQ, we need $10k in next years budget to send our teams to NCC."

Unless the money is coming from external sources, it's still CAP spending $130k on NCC.

Ehhhhh.......no.    Each wing has to send a team......how they pay for it is up to the wing.....wing find donors, make the teams pay, charge each squadron a surcharge to competed at the wing level....what ever.   

Point is now....we spend $130K for the regional teams to go....free of charge...more or less.......If the event is say 5 days long....at $50/day for room and board and $500+/- for air fair.....that's $750 per member.....saves NHQ a butt load of money....add $100 per cadet/senior to cover costs of the event.....and I think you still will have a lot of interest in the event.  Particularly if everyone knows the costs up front.

It also pushes wings to find cheaper ways to get to the event.

Quote from: lordmonar on August 14, 2013, 05:01:56 PM
This is what I would like to see in the NCC.

Each WING sends a CG and DT to the week long comp.

Each wing pays it's own way for their teams.

That way NHQ is not spending $130K on the event, more cadets participate in the NCSA on the national level.

Yes....that makes the event that much bigger....but it also makes it that much more of impressive event for the cadets.

That my sound good but Logistically impossible. Just to find a place big enough to house 52 CL and 52 DT along with enough staff the numbers would be astronomical. Lets not forget finding the facility that could remotely hold this. Plus how many members it would take just staff this widespread of event. It would take more than a week for that many people.

If boyscouts can do it.  >:D

Quote from: a2capt on August 14, 2013, 06:49:05 PM

Quote from: Woodsy on August 14, 2013, 06:39:37 PMWait...  NHQ has been paying for travel/lodging for everyone?!?!

Why not have teams pay/fund raise their own way, like almost every other CAP event?  I'm shocked to hear that we were paying for participants!  I understand and support paying expenses for event staff, but not for participants...

Like you noted, there is precedent.  It's not like it was a secret.  Yes, perhaps they should make it more like school band competitions where as part of the competition, they need to typically raise funds to go higher up. Wing and in some cases, Region, are simple. Get a van and drive, barracks are cheap. Bring money for about 6 meals at the mess hall.

They ABSOLUTELY  need to make it like those band competitions!  There is no reason we should be funding this. 

When I said "almost" every other CAP event, I meant everything where you're not staff.  ES missions aside, I've never heard of any CAP event paying travel and lodging expenses for every participant. 

I'm holding a Public Affairs academy in a few weeks.  Yes, the PA budget is paying for the gas and hotel for the staff members/instructors, that's a necessity to get the right people to fill the positions.  But the 60 +/- participants are on their own dime.  I can imagine the laughs I would get if I went to the Wing Commander with a request to fund everyone's expenses. 

Quote from: wowcap on August 15, 2013, 12:30:35 AM

Quote from: lordmonar on August 14, 2013, 05:01:56 PM
This is what I would like to see in the NCC.

Each WING sends a CG and DT to the week long comp.

Each wing pays it's own way for their teams.

That way NHQ is not spending $130K on the event, more cadets participate in the NCSA on the national level.

Yes....that makes the event that much bigger....but it also makes it that much more of impressive event for the cadets.

That my sound good but Logistically impossible. Just to find a place big enough to house 52 CL and 52 DT along with enough staff the numbers would be astronomical. Lets not forget finding the facility that could remotely hold this. Plus how many members it would take just staff this widespread of event. It would take more than a week for that many people.

No....not impossible....just really really big operation.....any large university could put up 300 participates and staff....easy.  My daughter just went to a thespian camp in Indiana for a week that hosted more then 300 participants.  And as USAFAUX just said the BSA does an even larger event every four years.


As for taking more then a week....I call BS. 
Arrive on Sunday
Written and PT Test on Monday
Tuesday Uniform Inspections
Wednesday Regulation Drill/Regulation CG and Outdoor CG/
Thursday Innovative Drill/Indore CG
Friday one hell of a massive drill down and just having fun...followed by an awards ceremony
Saturday depart.

Just need a large enough venue to run more then one team at a time.....the real hard part will be having enough things for the teams to do while they are waiting their turn.

Again.....not impossible....just big......and that is sort of the point isn't? 

300?  That's just a large encampment.

I have considered adding a flight to our Advanced Training Squadron at the Illinois Wing Summer Encampment that would train in Color Guard, Drill Team, honor Guard, etc. It would be held within the structure of the encampment and therefore would not require special or additional funding. We have some resources available at wing and I think I can scrape together enough equipment to put one on. I was hoping to lure Ray Hicks or Leon Flowers back from Texas to run it. Unfortunately, LtCol Flower's passing will make that more difficult. I am also thinking of asking Command Chief Dandridge if he can fit it into his busy speaking schedule. This would be a one week activity and would not result in any bling other than a certificate. I had quite enough of the "Dril Team God Complex" here in IL several years ago.

oops

So I can't do math.

That's should be 1560 participants.....that's 30 members per wing....10 CG team + alternates and escorts and 20 DT team + alternates and escorts.
Add 200 Staff.....for 1760......again not too hard for most large universities during the summer.

If it really get's too big.....split it up into two venues (one for CG and one for DT)  But that doubles your staffing....which is not really a bad thing.

Again if it gets too big....you can also do it alternating years (CG on odd years and DT on even).  That would make it 520 on CG years and 1040 on DT years.

^ Those numbers are probably not practical in today's CAP / post BRAC paradigm.  Just feeding that many people would take a Vegas-level brunch.

However 300 is probably doable in just about every wing, and the smaller wings would not have that many.

The scale is why it should probably stay Wing-level or smaller.  In wings where the majority of the population are in one place, most of the participants could be day-players and incur no lodging cost, and get their own lunch on breaks.

It's when you move outside the Wing that the costs escalate and your ROI starts to move in the other direction, and because the entry cost is so high, that's when the seniors start getting nuts with the uniforms, coaches, team PT gear, etc., etc. Because when you're in it for $10k, what's another $500, right?

Standard, daily-wear uniforms, standard PT gear and civvies, etc., etc.  It's not the Olympics.

Then why not just do it at encampment and be done with it?

The point I am trying to make is make a NCSA that is in fact something BIG and has something cool about it.

I never said anything about doing this at a military base......we don't need to go there for something like this.

Quote from: lordmonar on August 15, 2013, 02:06:32 AM
Then why not just do it at encampment and be done with it?

Small training flights or part of advanced squadrons?  Maybe. Properly training cadets in CG techniques is
actually a good idea, maybe it should be added to the required curriculum.

As a large addendum to the activity? No.

Encampments have a mission and purpose, not to mention a pretty significant courseload and structure (now), ES training, etc., etc., tend to pull staff in too many directions, and generally dilute the experience for the basics students, and we do not have the manpower in most wings to run a standard encampment the same week as a large-scale CG academy at the same time.  The broken record of "more people" is salient here as well, but without them, the cup is pretty empty.

The second issue is competing activities.  A large-scale CG academy would compete with encampments and NCSAs, and that's where the cadets belong.

As to venue, military facilities are the only option in a lot of wings because of the scale and the finances.
In my wing, schools that could support the events are increasingly charging for their facilities, and/or increasing their costs.  The only places we can get large-scale billeting and meals is military bases and similar facilities. Most other places are too expensive, too small, or inappropriate for various reasons.

The more we talk this through, the more it becomes evident as to how and why we got to the point where the activity is "paused", and why it is not really a viable activity in today's CAP.

Quote from: lordmonar on August 15, 2013, 02:06:32 AM
Then why not just do it at encampment and be done with it?

When do you propose to do this at Encampment?  We already have just about every minute available booked already just doing the stuff that is required by National.

I think the idea is to be concurrent with the encampment, not a part of it. The '08 GLR-N/MI encampment ran a concurrent RCLS when I was there, and it seemed to work well. The staff worked both events, and everyone use the messing and berthing facilities jointly. I think a CG Academy could work on the same basis.

In a round about kinda way, NCC in 2012 did run concurrently with OHWG encampment.

Though it was not shared infrastructure/staff, they were on the WSU campus at the same time. I got the feeling the encampment people were not thrilled with us there. ;)

Other OHWG people did make comments about it being a strain on the host Wing, logistics, vehicles, etc. NCC commands the use of a lot of vans as one example.

Of course, a venue where everything is within walking distance and a small motorpool for checking out a vehicle to go to the store, or similar.. would make more sense. But that's not always possible either.

It's a ton of work picking a venue.

Quote from: SarDragon on August 15, 2013, 05:22:17 AM
I think the idea is to be concurrent with the encampment, not a part of it. The '08 GLR-N/MI encampment ran a concurrent RCLS when I was there, and it seemed to work well. The staff worked both events, and everyone use the messing and berthing facilities jointly. I think a CG Academy could work on the same basis.

Well, since we usually fill every bed we have and end up with a wait list for the CAWG Encampment, I guess we don't have to worry about that.

Don't forget, its on a "strategic pause" for 2014 to allow for re-evaluation and re-engineering, not "abolished forever," gang.

BTW, according to the evidence I've heard (solid empirical data, even!), the NCC program reaches fewer than 1,000 cadets, even counting those who participate at the region and wing levels.  So I guess I need to revise my prior statement about reach to "less than 4%".

Spending $130k for NCC is a significant number (about 5% of the current corporate income of CAP).  I would definately look for alternatives to funding, however I would hope this activity would continue.  There are better ways of conducting this activity, and more economical ways of funding it. 

At the local level, it is totally self funded;  no problem here...
At the wing level, it is mostly self funded; no problem here...
At the region level, it is partially self funded; the region funds much of the competition from their operating budget.  There is usually no problem at this level.
That the "NCC program reaches fewer than 1,000 cadets" should not be an issue.  With the proper "support", this program can reach millions thru good "friend raising" activities.  This is one area where "sponsorships" is a good thing...

NCC can not be totally funded by CAP unless there can be a dedicated funding source(s).  This is not a difficult proposition.  Unfortunatly, I don't think anyone as seriously tried to identify a way to do this.  NCC can be a great "branding opportunity". 

I'm happy that 2014 will be an "off year".  CAP needs to reacess this, and other such programs.  There are better ways to do business.  We just need to have the will power to change.
Now I'll go back to munching my popcorn... ;)

Quote from: FW on August 16, 2013, 01:40:00 PMAt the region level, it is partially self funded; the region funds much of the competition from their operating budget.

And where does this "operating budget" come from?

Quote from: Eclipse on August 16, 2013, 01:43:12 PM

Quote from: FW on August 16, 2013, 01:40:00 PMAt the region level, it is partially self funded; the region funds much of the competition from their operating budget.

And where does this "operating budget" come from?

Region dues are $8/member; every member.   ::)

Quote from: FW on August 16, 2013, 01:57:01 PM

Quote from: Eclipse on August 16, 2013, 01:43:12 PM

Quote from: FW on August 16, 2013, 01:40:00 PMAt the region level, it is partially self funded; the region funds much of the competition from their operating budget.

And where does this "operating budget" come from?

Region dues are $8/member; every member.

My point, exactly.

Quote from: FW on August 16, 2013, 01:40:00 PM
<snippage occurred>
That the "NCC program reaches fewer than 1,000 cadets" should not be an issue.  With the proper "support", this program can reach millions thru good "friend raising" activities.  This is one area where "sponsorships" is a good thing...

Indeed.  That it reaches/impacts fewer than 1,000 cadets puts it on the level of a large NCSA.

But spending that much money on < 1,000 cadets doesn't compute from an ROI standpoint. And anything we're doing should be viewed thru the lens of "Is this cost impacting the largest number of members possible?" and if the answer is "Well, no," then its time to re-evaluate (which is what NHQ is doing).

Certainly, this doesn't inhibit wings & regions from continuing to hold cadet competitions to "keep the edge on the sword," even if said sword won't get used the "The Big Game" for 2014. 

Ideally, in 2014, wings & regions could use this as an opportunity to examine "better competition" practices that lead to a) better participation; b) broader impact to the overall cadet program; c) reduce the "distraction" from "the usual CP" that being a truly competitive team seems to require.  A great opportunity for Wing & Region CPs to use their competitions as a "testbed" for events & strategies for 2015 and see if the desired outcomes are achieved.

Darin, I think NCC could be used more to showcase our cadet program to the country.  ROI should be considered as to total effect on CAP.  If NCC is utilized to build support for the organization as a whole, then,I would argue, any funds spent on it would be well used.

In the CAP paradigm, if the "whatever" has to be specifically formulated just to have a competition, then we're missing the point, whether that's NCC, a SARComp, whatever.

The USAF doesn't grow and nurture pilots for Red Flag, the best and brightest go there to learn how to perform >mission essential< tasks at the highest level possible.
Pilots and crews are already doing the job as a matter of course and who are simply rising to the top.

So in CAP, that would translate to CG's but no drill teams, grade-appropriate PT, not volleyball, etc., and established teams who are "doing the job" whether or not
any competition exists.

The "final exam" mentality is another reason CAP struggles so much.

Ongoing excellence and programs with knowledgeable staff?  Nah, just cram for the CI and appoint whoever shows up to check the boxes.
Ongoing ES programs that learn from mistakes, make hard choices about resources and function on the plane of reality?  Nah, just keep doing what
we have always done and then brute-force effort the opportunities where chance brings us a real mission.
Concerted recruiting efforts that pipeline members to create cohesion at all levels and bring units and activities together?  Nah, just run everything
as an island and reinvent the process with each new shift.

And of course...Color Guards as a normal part of unit curriculum in order to foster respect for the colors and provide a resource to the community?
Nah, just scramble 2 months before the competition to see if anyone is interested, then forget about it for another year.

((*rinse*, repeat))

Quote from: FW on August 16, 2013, 03:13:43 PM
Darin, I think NCC could be used more to showcase our cadet program to the country.  ROI should be considered as to total effect on CAP.  If NCC is utilized to build support for the organization as a whole, then,I would argue, any funds spent on it would be well used.

Couldn't agree more, sir!

("Welcome, D&C fans, to the Civil Air Patrol National Cadet Competition. Brought to you by Coca-Cola, Monster and Cessna. Only here on ESPN8, The Ocho!")

Just like the Best Ranger competition basically tests "Ranger skillz" and especially day-to-day Ranger skillz, the NCC should do something similar.

Innovative drill is not something we do day to day. How about a standard drill obstacle course?  Skillfully navigating a flight from Point A to Point B in an orderly fashion while using the correct commands, and having the cadet execute based on those commands, as opposed to doing things by rote, without getting run over is probably far more "cadet-ish" than "dancing." (yes, I know innovative is no longer that, but you get my point)

Obviously quiz bowl & written test are not exactly "sporty events". "Gee, Cotton, those cadets can fill out a form 23 with the best of them!"

But the PT test could be. Volleyball? Meh.  Unless you're an Olympic-level volley ball team, volley ball isn't that much fun to watch.

Inspection?  Another barn-burner of an event that will likely NOT get covered on The Ocho. :)

ESPN "10 most grueling hits of NCC!"

Quote from: NIN on August 16, 2013, 03:32:01 PM
Inspection?  Another barn-burner of an event that will likely NOT get covered on The Ocho. :)

Maybe on ESPN12 "The Doce" (dos-say).

Got to love a good Dodge Ball reference.

Quote from: FW on August 16, 2013, 03:13:43 PM
Darin, I think NCC could be used more to showcase our cadet program to the country.  ROI should be considered as to total effect on CAP.  If NCC is utilized to build support for the organization as a whole, then,I would argue, any funds spent on it would be well used.

But, where is the "show" in this showcase?

I'm a D&C guy from way back. My squadron growing up was too small for a drill team, but I was on a very good Army JROTC drill team. I've been a judge at countless Wing level competitions. Even so, I can't picture gathering my neighbors in front of the big screen, pizza and beer at the ready, or buying a ticket to see a live NCC.

NCC is a big deal event for those who are participating in NCC. Just as AYSO Regionals are big deals for those kids and their families. Everybody else? Not so much.

Little League World Series is being followed closely in Nashville. But that's because South Nashville is in it. And, at least, that's a game of skill. I can't see the same excitement being generated by watching to see if one of the 8 NCC teams has a cadet with a speck on his shirt or if last cadet, last element hesitates a fraction of a second on a flanking movement.

No matter how you slice it, with NCC,  the "show" is being IN the show, not watching it.

Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on August 16, 2013, 04:22:11 PMNCC is a big deal event for those who are participating in NCC.

This.

Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on August 16, 2013, 04:22:11 PM

Quote from: FW on August 16, 2013, 03:13:43 PM
Darin, I think NCC could be used more to showcase our cadet program to the country.  ROI should be considered as to total effect on CAP.  If NCC is utilized to build support for the organization as a whole, then,I would argue, any funds spent on it would be well used.

But, where is the "show" in this showcase?

I'm a D&C guy from way back. My squadron growing up was too small for a drill team, but I was on a very good Army JROTC drill team. I've been a judge at countless Wing level competitions. Even so, I can't picture gathering my neighbors in front of the big screen, pizza and beer at the ready, or buying a ticket to see a live NCC.

NCC is a big deal event for those who are participating in NCC. Just as AYSO Regionals are big deals for those kids and their families. Everybody else? Not so much.

Little League World Series is being followed closely in Nashville. But that's because South Nashville is in it. And, at least, that's a game of skill. I can't see the same excitement being generated by watching to see if one of the 8 NCC teams has a cadet with a speck on his shirt or if last cadet, last element hesitates a fraction of a second on a flanking movement.

No matter how you slice it, with NCC,  the "show" is being IN the show, not watching it.

So, to me, this touches on part of the problem with the event.   It's essentially held out of the public eye.  Cadet Color Guards/Drill Teams serve as our ambassadors and our showcase material.   They need to be shared publicly. 

The National Cadet Competition needs to be held in a very public place.  This makes it more of an event for all involved and serves as a recruiting tool.   I'd like to see at a large public mall (Mall of America), large public park (Washington DC or a host of other places), state fair....or a host of other similar venues that are free and open to the public.   

Holding the competition in the gymnasium of some university is limiting and spoils an otherwise great opportunity.

Quote from: Eclipse on August 16, 2013, 04:38:39 PM

Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on August 16, 2013, 04:22:11 PMNCC is a big deal event for those who are participating in NCC.

This.

+1. Even CG...its just routine CG. Now, if they threw in a performance there... :angel:

Quote from: A.Member on August 16, 2013, 04:49:04 PM
The National Cadet Competition needs to be held in a very public place.  This makes it more of an event for all involved and serves as a recruiting tool.   I'd like to see at a large public mall (Mall of America), large public park (Washington DC or a host of other places), state fair....or a host of other similar venues that are free and open to the public.   

Holding the competition in the gymnasium of some university is limiting and spoils an otherwise great opportunity.

Very large public places tend to be costly, which is the reason for the "strategic pause".
How do you propose to pay for the "very large public place"?

It worked great when they did it in the center of the floor, of the US Air Force Museum hangar #2. In between the Globemaster II and B-52.

Quote from: PHall on August 16, 2013, 04:58:18 PM

Quote from: A.Member on August 16, 2013, 04:49:04 PM
The National Cadet Competition needs to be held in a very public place.  This makes it more of an event for all involved and serves as a recruiting tool.   I'd like to see at a large public mall (Mall of America), large public park (Washington DC or a host of other places), state fair....or a host of other similar venues that are free and open to the public.   

Holding the competition in the gymnasium of some university is limiting and spoils an otherwise great opportunity.

Very large public places tend to be costly, which is the reason for the "strategic pause".
How do you propose to pay for the "very large public place"?

Not necessarily (costly) and renting out a college gymnasium isn't necessarily inexpensive either. 

However, as it comes to for paying for events, it's like all others...come and pay.  Fundamentally, this activity is no different than a NCSA or any other national activity.   The key potential that is being missed with the activity is the recruiting aspect, so diverting a few of the limited dollars available for advertising/marketing to support a public event would not be money wasted.   Dontating space is not unheard of either.

[/quote]
So, to me, this touches on part of the problem with the event.   It's essentially held out of the public eye.  Cadet Color Guards/Drill Teams serve as our ambassadors and our showcase material.   They need to be shared publicly. 

The National Cadet Competition needs to be held in a very public place.  This makes it more of an event for all involved and serves as a recruiting tool.   I'd like to see at a large public mall (Mall of America), large public park (Washington DC or a host of other places), state fair....or a host of other similar venues that are free and open to the public.   

Holding the competition in the gymnasium of some university is limiting and spoils an otherwise great opportunity.
[/quote]

Ethel - "Hey, honey, look at this...it's a bunch of people marching in the middle of the mall!"

Fred - "Well how 'bout that! They look pretty sharp!"

ANNOUNCER -"How about a nice round of applause for the team from Southeast Region, Civil Air Patrol!"

CROWD - (clappity clap, clappity clap), "Huzzah!"

ANNOUNCER - And now entering the competition, the team from Pacific Region!"

Ethel - "Oh, look, Fred, they're doing it again!  Oh, look, somebody handed me a brochure...it's a nationwide competition...8 teams...and 8 color guards..."

Fred - "Yeah...they look good, too...I thought we were headed over to Cinnabon?"

Ethel - "Yes, I've got to get these clothes back to Penneys..."

Quote from: A.Member on August 16, 2013, 05:15:44 PMNot necessarily (costly) and renting out a college gymnasium isn't necessarily inexpensive either. 

One of these days someone will explain to me why we are forced to "rent" things like public university gymnasiums and billeting, etc.,
even the use of Guard facilities and similar state resources in a lot of wings have non-trivial costs.

We're a quasi-government agency with ties to the military, "Legislative Squadrons", and staff officers specifically appointed to
handle these requests, yet when we need something, we're calling the same 800# everyone else is, and no one has a clue who we are.

Quote from: Eclipse on August 16, 2013, 05:42:26 PM

Quote from: A.Member on August 16, 2013, 05:15:44 PMNot necessarily (costly) and renting out a college gymnasium isn't necessarily inexpensive either. 

One of these days someone will explain to me why we are forced to "rent" things like public university gymnasiums and billeting, etc.,
even the use of Guard facilities and similar state resources in a lot of wings have non-trivial costs.

We're a quasi-government agency with ties to the military, "Legislative Squadrons", and staff officers specifically appointed to
handle these requests, yet when we need something, we're calling the same 800# everyone else is, and no one has a clue who we are.

Agreed.   It seems to come down to who's doing the asking and who's being asked.   The answers may not be consistent nor logical. 
Ex.  Want $0 o-flights on a UH-60 or CH-47 (which have reimbursable rates between $5K - $10K per hour)?  "No problem - we'll work out with flight ops...a couple hours per squadron good enough?"   Want overnight billeting in quarters that are not being used?  "Let me get out the rate book and fire up the contract...that'll cost you. "

Sometimes it may even be how we ask.  The art may lie in how to navigate the line between that "quasi-government" entity and the 501(C)3 entity.   

Quote from: A.Member on August 16, 2013, 06:50:07 PM

Quote from: Eclipse on August 16, 2013, 05:42:26 PM

Quote from: A.Member on August 16, 2013, 05:15:44 PMNot necessarily (costly) and renting out a college gymnasium isn't necessarily inexpensive either. 

One of these days someone will explain to me why we are forced to "rent" things like public university gymnasiums and billeting, etc.,
even the use of Guard facilities and similar state resources in a lot of wings have non-trivial costs.

We're a quasi-government agency with ties to the military, "Legislative Squadrons", and staff officers specifically appointed to
handle these requests, yet when we need something, we're calling the same 800# everyone else is, and no one has a clue who we are.

Agreed.   It seems to come down to who's doing the asking and who's being asked.   The answers may not be consistent nor logical. 
Ex.  Want $0 o-flights on a UH-60 or CH-47 (which have reimbursable rates between $5K - $10K per hour)?  "No problem - we'll work out with flight ops...a couple hours per squadron good enough?"   Want overnight billeting in quarters that are not being used?  "Let me get out the rate book and fire up the contract...that'll cost you. "

Sometimes it may even be how we ask.  The art may lie in how to navigate the line between that "quasi-government" entity and the 501(C)3 entity.

The UH-60/CH-47 have to fly anyway to complete training requirements. Our o-flights are classed as "oppertune airlift" and add no extra costs.
Everybody pays to stay in billeting, even the Guard. No one, not even General Officers, stay for free.

Quote from: PHall on August 16, 2013, 07:22:20 PM
The UH-60/CH-47 have to fly anyway to complete training requirements. Our o-flights are classed as "oppertune airlift" and add no extra costs.
Everybody pays to stay in billeting, even the Guard. No one, not even General Officers, stay for free.

Not entirely true.  In our case, we are not charged billeting.  We even have use of kitchen facilities (or we can pay for catering).

From what we've been told, NESA uses Atterbury's facilities for free - and that's a LOT of resources.

Quote from: A.Member on August 16, 2013, 08:13:18 PM

Quote from: PHall on August 16, 2013, 07:22:20 PM
The UH-60/CH-47 have to fly anyway to complete training requirements. Our o-flights are classed as "oppertune airlift" and add no extra costs.
Everybody pays to stay in billeting, even the Guard. No one, not even General Officers, stay for free.

Not entirely true.  In our case, we are not charged billeting.  We even have use of kitchen facilities (or we can pay for catering).

Where exactly is that?  It's not at a California National Guard facility.

Quote from: PHall on August 16, 2013, 09:12:48 PM
Where exactly is that?  It's not at a California National Guard facility.

No, it's not.   I've also seen good cooperation/use of facilities for NCSAs.  But I don't question your comment that some could/do charge.  I've heard as much.  So, back to my earlier comment, it's not consistent and that's the real point I was making.

Quote from: Eclipse on August 16, 2013, 03:33:42 PM
ESPN "10 most grueling hits of NCC!"

Yeah, I can see it sounding like golf meets gymnastics...

Announcer: (whispering) "The Pacific Region color guard team is marching into position.. Oh, thats going to cost them points, Cotton, the senior sergeant is just a half a beat out of step..."

Color Commentator: (also whispering) "Wait for the halt here.... Nailed it! Even a half beat out of step they just took it to the next level.  These cadets are out for blood, Chris, and they know it.  The point spread between them, the Great Lakes team from Michigan and the Southeast team out of Puerto Rico is just so tight, all it will take is one minor error to drop from first to third."

Quote from: A.Member on August 16, 2013, 06:50:07 PM

Quote from: Eclipse on August 16, 2013, 05:42:26 PM

Quote from: A.Member on August 16, 2013, 05:15:44 PMNot necessarily (costly) and renting out a college gymnasium isn't necessarily inexpensive either. 

One of these days someone will explain to me why we are forced to "rent" things like public university gymnasiums and billeting, etc.,
even the use of Guard facilities and similar state resources in a lot of wings have non-trivial costs.

We're a quasi-government agency with ties to the military, "Legislative Squadrons", and staff officers specifically appointed to
handle these requests, yet when we need something, we're calling the same 800# everyone else is, and no one has a clue who we are.

Agreed.   It seems to come down to who's doing the asking and who's being asked.   The answers may not be consistent nor logical. 
Ex.  Want $0 o-flights on a UH-60 or CH-47 (which have reimbursable rates between $5K - $10K per hour)?  "No problem - we'll work out with flight ops...a couple hours per squadron good enough?"   Want overnight billeting in quarters that are not being used?  "Let me get out the rate book and fire up the contract...that'll cost you. "

Sometimes it may even be how we ask.  The art may lie in how to navigate the line between that "quasi-government" entity and the 501(C)3 entity.

Nearly 40 years ago, our squadron in an economically disadvantaged area hit the big time. Accommodations at a National Guard Field Artillery battery HQ. Dedicated office space, storage space, use of an interior drill hall, secured parking, great relationship with the Battery CO and 1Sgt. But it all fell apart.

A newly assigned LTC in Sacramento decreed that we had to pay to use the facility. The reg that covered free use referenced "...youth groups, such as Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, etc." Since we were neither, he decided that it didn't apply. No amount of pleading, by CAP and the Battery CO could change his mind.  The LO declined to intervene, with a hearty " That's State, I'm federal."

Quote from NIN:

"Innovative drill is not something we do day to day. How about a standard drill obstacle course?  Skillfully navigating a flight from Point A to Point B in an orderly fashion while using the correct commands, and having the cadet execute based on those commands, as opposed to doing things by rote, without getting run over is probably far more "cadet-ish" than "dancing." (yes, I know innovative is no longer that, but you get my point)"

Way back in the shadows of my cadet days was something called the "54 Command Drill Sequence". It was as it stated a sequence of 54 drill commands that a flight would perform. It covered nearly every possible drill command that was in the standard drill manual. The flight would start in a designated location and if they did the sequence right and with the proper timing they would end up in the exact same spot they started out in. That sounds like something that everyone could shoot for.

Quote from: ol'fido on August 17, 2013, 02:11:21 AM
Way back in the shadows of my cadet days was something called the "54 Command Drill Sequence". It was as it stated a sequence of 54 drill commands that a flight would perform. It covered nearly every possible drill command that was in the standard drill manual. The flight would start in a designated location and if they did the sequence right and with the proper timing they would end up in the exact same spot they started out in. That sounds like something that everyone could shoot for.

Indeed.

We used to do something similar at MI Wing's CLS: there was a drill test at the end of the week and everybody got plenty of time on the drill pad to march the flight around. IIRC, it wasn't the old NCC "54 commands," but it was pretty close.

The first year I helped run CLS, I got the cadets out on the hardpan and talked to them about what the drill test would entail at the end of the week. I then put rock near the 1st element leader's foot and proceeded to march them through the entire command sequence without reference  (I had a notecard held out of sight in my hand that I consulted when I was behind them, but I knew the whole thing cold) and when they halted and faced back into line formation at the very end, the 1st element leader and that rock were about 6" apart. 

(I wasn't showing off, I was demonstrating the concept of "expert power" as it pertains to leadership powers which they were having a class on the next day. Nothing like a nice fresh example for your class...LOL)

I was actually picturing something that looked like the field from that show "Wipeout" (big brightly colored obstacles) and thing that moved.  Like, you know, "Cadet Frogger".. LOL!

Have a football field sized area, with fixed and moveable obstacles. Every team gets a slightly different experience.  Start in one end zone, wind up in the opposite end zone. Don't get hit by the moving obstacles, don't hit the fixed ones, stay in step.  GO! :)

Best time (with penalties for obstacle contact, incorrectly given commands, incorrectly executed commands, and getting out of step, etc) wins. :)

We used to do the 54 commands for the Drill Comp at the CAWG Encampment.
You had to memorize it when I was a cadet.
For some reason we don't use it anymore... ???

BITD When I was a Rope at Tech School (that's a student Leader to you not USAF types) we had a 5 day (two-three hours a day) course on how to march and some basic leadership stuff.

Our final exam included a drilling a flight in a pre-printed square.

You had to use all the normal commands used to move students from the dorms to the school house and open ranks.

I still have my books in storage....I will get them out this week and scan the drill commands and diagram and post them here.

Quote from: PHall on August 17, 2013, 03:56:19 PM
We used to do the 54 commands for the Drill Comp at the CAWG Encampment.
You had to memorize it when I was a cadet.
For some reason we don't use it anymore... ???

It got dropped for several reasons, starting with time crunch for learning and practicing the sequence, ending with lack of time to evaluate 10 or so flights performing them. Something had to give and D&C reverted to "troop handling" emphasis. Fair enough, really, as encampment isn't set up to train drill teams and the 54 commands can be learned/practiced elsewhere.

Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on August 18, 2013, 04:23:45 AM

Quote from: PHall on August 17, 2013, 03:56:19 PM
We used to do the 54 commands for the Drill Comp at the CAWG Encampment.
You had to memorize it when I was a cadet.
For some reason we don't use it anymore... ???

It got dropped for several reasons, starting with time crunch for learning and practicing the sequence, ending with lack of time to evaluate 10 or so flights performing them. Something had to give and D&C reverted to "troop handling" emphasis. Fair enough, really, as encampment isn't set up to train drill teams and the 54 commands can be learned/practiced elsewhere.

We still have the Squadron and Group Drill Comps where all of the flights (we had 13 this year) have to be judged, some more then once.
And yes the 54 commands was dropped and replaced with 75 commands.
Ref: CAWG ETM, Chap 10.

Quote from: PHall on August 18, 2013, 03:42:23 PM

Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on August 18, 2013, 04:23:45 AM

Quote from: PHall on August 17, 2013, 03:56:19 PM
We used to do the 54 commands for the Drill Comp at the CAWG Encampment.
You had to memorize it when I was a cadet.
For some reason we don't use it anymore... ???

It got dropped for several reasons, starting with time crunch for learning and practicing the sequence, ending with lack of time to evaluate 10 or so flights performing them. Something had to give and D&C reverted to "troop handling" emphasis. Fair enough, really, as encampment isn't set up to train drill teams and the 54 commands can be learned/practiced elsewhere.

We still have the Squadron and Group Drill Comps where all of the flights (we had 13 this year) have to be judged, some more then once.
And yes the 54 commands was dropped and replaced with 75 commands.
Ref: CAWG ETM, Chap 10.

Brought 'em back, and then some!

I thought the 54 commands were dropped because of NER and claims of the team being able to march them without the commander saying a word (i.e. X number of steps between column right, forward, close, forward, extend, forward, column right, forward). Basically like today's innovative drill routines.

I bet CAP has no beef spending $130k on cadet programs; the beef is about the impact and reach of the whole NCC. Participation sucks. Has sucked since the 60's.

Find a way to get more units involved. Retool it to better measure today's cadet program. Make the "ZOMG ITS GOING TO TAKE FOREVER TO PREPARE!" perception/reality and change it to something everyunit (or anyunit?) can believe they'll win with minimal extra effort. Participation will explode and that 130K spent will be better invested.

==============================

With all this funding talk, surprised no one is bagging on IACE, which likely costs just as much (if not more) and has even fewer people involved than NCC.

IACE as been mentioned.

How would NER influence an encampment on the other side of the country, or for that matter ..

Any other one? Drill sequences and commands are not specific to anyone. How else do you have a national standard if you don't publish it. What's wrong with using it, and certainly they can test against a 'hidden' one, by simply revealing it to each team a set amont of minutes prior to their performance, and sequestering the whole bunch until it's each's time to step off.

Quote from: a2capt on August 19, 2013, 07:29:28 PM
How would NER influence an encampment on the other side of the country, or for that matter ..

54 commands of standard drill were the same 54 commands every year, year in year out, for all teams competing in NCC. Had / has nothing at all to do with encampment.

Some history here. NER won a bunch of times.. at least 6 in a row, late 80's early 90s. The 54 commands were dropped after that last NER win in that streak (1991 or 1992), and word / rumors from the team members was it was dropped because it was "too easy" and people were tired of NER winning all the time. Part of the charge was the teams could memorize the drill sequence of those 54 commands, even if the commander screwed it up.

Now, that is all hearsay, and could be just how the cadets perceived the decision. Admittedly, this particular group had a very strong "us-vs-them" mentality, adding to the stereotype of "whats wrong with drill teams." But I thought that the ability to memorize the 54 commands was one of the main reasons why they were dropped.

To the earlier comment about 54 commands being too hard to memorize, that was not my experience. I memorized them at my first encampment as an in-flight cadet, and it appeared to me pretty much everyone else there did too :)

=====
I must've missed the IACE comment in this thread, perhaps it was discussed in a different one?

Quote from: welsh on August 19, 2013, 07:47:40 PM
Some history here. NER won a bunch of times.. at least 6 in a row, late 80's early 90s. The 54 commands were dropped after that last NER win in that streak (1991 or 1992), and word / rumors from the team members was it was dropped because it was "too easy" and people were tired of NER winning all the time. Part of the charge was the teams could memorize the drill sequence of those 54 commands, even if the commander screwed it up.

Assuming this were true, every wing would have the same ability.

Quote from: Eclipse on August 19, 2013, 07:53:05 PM

Quote from: welsh on August 19, 2013, 07:47:40 PM
Some history here. NER won a bunch of times.. at least 6 in a row, late 80's early 90s. The 54 commands were dropped after that last NER win in that streak (1991 or 1992), and word / rumors from the team members was it was dropped because it was "too easy" and people were tired of NER winning all the time. Part of the charge was the teams could memorize the drill sequence of those 54 commands, even if the commander screwed it up.

Assuming this were true, every wing would have the same ability.

+1

And assuming it was true...wouldn't it be obvious if/when the commander was early/late on calling a command, and the team did the right move anyway?

Quote from: usafaux2004 on August 19, 2013, 08:11:09 PM

Quote from: Eclipse on August 19, 2013, 07:53:05 PM

Quote from: welsh on August 19, 2013, 07:47:40 PM
Some history here. NER won a bunch of times.. at least 6 in a row, late 80's early 90s. The 54 commands were dropped after that last NER win in that streak (1991 or 1992), and word / rumors from the team members was it was dropped because it was "too easy" and people were tired of NER winning all the time. Part of the charge was the teams could memorize the drill sequence of those 54 commands, even if the commander screwed it up.

Assuming this were true, every wing would have the same ability.

+1

And assuming it was true...wouldn't it be obvious if/when the commander was early/late on calling a command, and the team did the right move anyway?

Well of course hat's exactly what they're supposed to do, per 36-2203 "to the best of their ability" (which seems like it should be pretty good for a national drill team, right?)

Quote from: welsh on August 19, 2013, 07:47:40 PM

Some history here. NER won a bunch of times.. at least 6 in a row, late 80's early 90s. The 54 commands were dropped after that last NER win in that streak (1991 or 1992), and word / rumors from the team members was it was dropped because it was "too easy" and people were tired of NER winning all the time. Part of the charge was the teams could memorize the drill sequence of those 54 commands, even if the commander screwed it up.

As a long-time ago CA Wing drill comp judge, realizing that the 54 commands could be done without any direction by the commander, I had daydreams of a team showing up, reporting for judging and a cadet setting up a folding chair, commander taking a seat and reading a newspaper until the 54 commands ended.

Quote from: welsh on August 19, 2013, 07:47:40 PM

Some history here. NER won a bunch of times.. at least 6 in a row, late 80's early 90s. The 54 commands were dropped after that last NER win in that streak (1991 or 1992), and word / rumors from the team members was it was dropped because it was "too easy" and people were tired of NER winning all the time. Part of the charge was the teams could memorize the drill sequence of those 54 commands, even if the commander screwed it up.

Concerning history, If anyone wants at least one team's perspective on the NER era of the times being quoted in this thread (late 80s - early 90s), I will direct you to the following link: http://njwg.cap.gov/DDT/INDEX.htm (http://njwg.cap.gov/DDT/INDEX.htm)

It's a bit of a long read, but gives some insight into the way this team viewed the competition at that time.

A long read? All I saw was photos of each year's team. No viewpoints, narratives, or such.

But, a question arrises from that, out of curiosity: Does the "New Jersey Wing Dragon Drill Team" title via the patches and other items become the identity of whichever team wins the Wing competition, or is that a one team from a specific unit, that the cadets will join if they want to do that? I realize it's a small state and could entirely support that. 

My apologies... the long read starts on the fifth page: http://njwg.cap.gov/DDT/DDTH1.htm (http://njwg.cap.gov/DDT/DDTH1.htm) and continues for a few more.

The NJ teams are not one specific unit.  They are and have always been a group of cadets that join the activity, which is administered at the Wing Level.  Most units in NJ are not big enough to support a full drill team.

Ah, I missed the navigation to a further page. Kind of odd down there in the lower corner, past what presents itself as the focal point at the bottom. :)

Quote from: a2capt on August 20, 2013, 05:19:41 PM
A long read? All I saw was photos of each year's team. No viewpoints, narratives, or such.

But, a question arrises from that, out of curiosity: Does the "New Jersey Wing Dragon Drill Team" title via the patches and other items become the identity of whichever team wins the Wing competition, or is that a one team from a specific unit, that the cadets will join if they want to do that? I realize it's a small state and could entirely support that.

It's a very clunky arrangement, but if you scroll all the way down on each page, there's a link to the next one in the LR corner. Click through the first couple of pages, and you finally get to some text.

NCC for 1991 and 1992 is a sensitive subject for Flying Pig and myself.

An easy band aid would be to send judges to each region and score the cadets on the events. They could score each event (minus panel quiz) and total for National results.

Quote from: OldGuard on August 21, 2013, 04:06:34 AM
NCC for 1991 and 1992 is a sensitive subject for Flying Pig and myself.

An easy band aid would be to send judges to each region and score the cadets on the events. They could score each event (minus panel quiz) and total for National results.

That's actually a really good idea, and/or just have them judged locally by knowledgeable people from other organizations.
There are non-military drill teams all over the place, not to mention military teams, etc.

Send or enter the score somewhere, rinse, repeat.

Local service, national impact.

The teams all need to be judged by the same panel, so that the same viewpoints are applied to each team.

My score of 80 is not the same as your score of 80. Even if we are using the same score sheets.

Quote from: a2capt on August 21, 2013, 05:20:59 AM
The teams all need to be judged by the same panel, so that the same viewpoints are applied to each team.

My score of 80 is not the same as your score of 80. Even if we are using the same score sheets.

Is it really that subjective? And if it is, does it need to be?

Academic and PT scores (if they went from games to grade-appropriate PT) would be wholly objective, so that only leaves the
posting and drill.  Couldn't timing proper commands be used in lieu of more subjective criteria?

I mean frankly we haven't had very good luck the last few years with the objective stuff, so even that's a problem as is.

Innovative Drill is just that, and for Color Guard, the Indoor & Outdoor Posting are also innovative.

Panel Quiz would need to be changed out with something else, as remote games are kind of tough.

Inspection on both parts, sure there's points on the sheet. But again, that's subjective to view, quality of eyeballs, etc.

Hmmm...not sure how you crack this then.  We see the same problem with trade shows - it costs what it costs
and transportation is the killer.  You can spread the love to a lot of little costs, or just right one big check, but
on the budget sheets the numbers are the same.

You'd have to do some hard math to see if sending say 4-6 people in a scoring team to 8 Regions was cheaper then
having 40-60 people come to a central place, not to mention that it would take probably a couple of months to finish all the scoring,
so between local, wing and region comps, you'd probably be doing competitions nearly year round somewhere or another.

Quote from: Eclipse on August 21, 2013, 04:15:12 AM

Quote from: OldGuard on August 21, 2013, 04:06:34 AM
NCC for 1991 and 1992 is a sensitive subject for Flying Pig and myself.

An easy band aid would be to send judges to each region and score the cadets on the events. They could score each event (minus panel quiz) and total for National results.

That's actually a really good idea, and/or just have them judged locally by knowledgeable people from other organizations.
There are non-military drill teams all over the place, not to mention military teams, etc.

Send or enter the score somewhere, rinse, repeat.

Local service, national impact.

I have to disagree here.  Judges see things differently, even if the published standards are the same.  If you're not using the same judges for all teams, you're introducing the possibility that some teams will face "harder" judges than others, skewing the competition towards the teams that get the "easier" judges.

ETA that I didn't see the previous replies mentioning this before putting in my own two cents.

Quote from: NC Hokie on August 21, 2013, 12:56:49 PM

Quote from: Eclipse on August 21, 2013, 04:15:12 AM

Quote from: OldGuard on August 21, 2013, 04:06:34 AM
NCC for 1991 and 1992 is a sensitive subject for Flying Pig and myself.

An easy band aid would be to send judges to each region and score the cadets on the events. They could score each event (minus panel quiz) and total for National results.

That's actually a really good idea, and/or just have them judged locally by knowledgeable people from other organizations.
There are non-military drill teams all over the place, not to mention military teams, etc.

Send or enter the score somewhere, rinse, repeat.

Local service, national impact.

I have to disagree here.  Judges see things differently, even if the published standards are the same.  If you're not using the same judges for all teams, you're introducing the possibility that some teams will face "harder" judges than others, skewing the competition towards the teams that get the "easier" judges.

ETA that I didn't see the previous replies mentioning this before putting in my own two cents.

A good judging team will be in sync with each other. If I'm a particularly strict grader on inspection or column movements, for example, it doesn't matter, as long as I'm equally strict with all teams and I see all teams. But if the next team over doesn't have a judge like me, but has a guy who likes to give "half points" or something, then whatever comparable team that he judges will have an advantage.

For many of the same reasons, PCR looked long and hard at a "send the judges to the teams" model, could never come close to making it work.  Assuming the judging crew could see two different teams in a weekend, that still means a spread of 3-4 weeks to get it done.  That of course means that the last team will have an extra month to practice, and may even have the benefit of seeing a tape of an earlier teams performance.  And of course spreading the competion out over a number of weeks greatly increases the chances of losing/swapping out a judge due to illness, sudden work conflicts, whatever.

And once the judging crew starts to vary, it becomes almost impossible.

Then add in climatic and venue differences and it gets pretty tricky.

We have done a YouTube competition for the subjective portions, where each team tapes a performance simultaneously and uploads it for remote judging.  That actually worked out better than I thought it would.

Still haven't figured out how to do volleyball remotely.

Quote from: Ned on August 21, 2013, 09:08:25 PMWe have done a YouTube competition for the subjective portions, where each team tapes a performance simultaneously and uploads it for remote judging.  That actually worked out better than I thought it would.

This is a really good idea, and pretty simple these days.

Quote from: Ned on August 21, 2013, 09:08:25 PM
Still haven't figured out how to do volleyball remotely.

What does volleyball have to do with CAP and drill?  Why not move to grade appropriate PT and base the scores on that.
It's directly connected to CAP, encourages fitness, and helps with progression.

<facepalm>  I just realized I had a paradigm staring me in the face that I totally forgot about!

In skydiving, at least before the Internet was a "BigDeal™" the US Parachute Association regions would have "Fax Meets" for different kinds of formation skydiving competitions (4-way and 8-way, essentially) among the DZs in the region.  You'd have someone locally who could judge, and in the morning all the DZs participating would get the competition's dive pool (the formations that every team would do for each round) faxed to them along with the rules. 

The teams would go up and jump, and each round would be judged (by the local "USPA competition judge" or someone else who was sufficiently knowledgeable) and the results faxed around to the other DZs or whomever was coordinating/Chief Judging the meet.

At the end of the day, the results were tallied and the winners announced.

Now, this was before things like YouTube, etc and 10 guys on an 8-way team with GoPros glued to their noggins, and high-speed internet...

But are you dealing with numbers or innovative routines?
The idea is to appeal to the judges. You can't do that with different viewpoints.

The video submission with the drill team works. The teams have to do it just like being at a common location. They have one shot, they have to report at a specific time, and there's no re-do. 

The angles are pre-determined with the camera placement, and those videos are all judged by the same panel at a point after all of them have been submitted, which they need to be submitted by a specific time frame.

The filming is handled by others not related to the team, but sent there to act as event marshalers and to certify that it was done one time, this is it, etc. The major difference being the location of each.

Ned may have hit on the solution.

2-3 cell phone cameras in a standard position to memorialize the event, and
one remote judge on a video chat watching to insure everyone is following the rules,
not doing it more then once, etc.

2-3 GoPros (dead on, one corner, another corner) and you're good.

One guy uploads the vids to the judges.

Quote from: a2capt on August 21, 2013, 10:15:45 PM
The filming is handled by others not related to the team, but sent there to act as event marshalers and to certify that it was done one time, this is it, etc. The major difference being the location of each.

High schools, colleges, and rec centers tend to have indoor basketball courts that are all the same size, and they even come with well marked boundaries that make it pretty easy for judges to see if the team goes out of bounds.  The placement of the cameras could also be standardized to ensure that the performances are as identically staged as possible.

Most of the places I know of with indoor BB courts abhor street shoes on the playing floor. Drill movements are especially hard on the finish.

Quote from: SarDragon on August 22, 2013, 12:09:53 AM
Most of the places I know of with indoor BB courts abhor street shoes on the playing floor. Drill movements are especially hard on the finish.

And thus was born...the Sock Comp.

Quote from: SarDragon on August 22, 2013, 12:09:53 AM
Most of the places I know of with indoor BB courts abhor street shoes on the playing floor. Drill movements are especially hard on the finish.

So they wear tennis shoes after the uniform inspection is done.  I must be doing something wrong if this is the biggest objection!  >:D

Quote from: NC Hokie on August 22, 2013, 12:55:40 AM

Quote from: SarDragon on August 22, 2013, 12:09:53 AM
Most of the places I know of with indoor BB courts abhor street shoes on the playing floor. Drill movements are especially hard on the finish.

So they wear tennis shoes after the uniform inspection is done.  I must be doing something wrong if this is the biggest objection!  >:D

You ever try to drill in tennis shoes? Facing movements tend to be a bit "sticky".

Quote from: PHall on August 22, 2013, 05:20:58 AM

Quote from: NC Hokie on August 22, 2013, 12:55:40 AM

Quote from: SarDragon on August 22, 2013, 12:09:53 AM
Most of the places I know of with indoor BB courts abhor street shoes on the playing floor. Drill movements are especially hard on the finish.

So they wear tennis shoes after the uniform inspection is done.  I must be doing something wrong if this is the biggest objection!  >:D

You ever try to drill in tennis shoes? Facing movements tend to be a bit "sticky".

I certainly have, and those facing movements became a circus of awkward squeaks. Marching turns didn't do much better. There would a bunch of knee and ankle injuries.

..and you can use an outdoor basketball court, too.  :)

But that still does not help for panel quiz and volleyball.

..and with Inspection being a close up event, scanning each cadet with a camera, a ruler, and lines on the ground to show where they fell in, foot position, and an overall camera to allow for movements to be visible.

A 3rd of the event can be done without anyone else. Written exam and Mile Run can be proctored by a local TCO and the results scanned and sent in.

The drill and performance events can be done with cameras and field specs decided on so that the vantage points and visuals are identical for the judges to see the same from everyone, again proctored by local TCO's or similar, down to the time of performance being predetermined by the event officials so that any performance after that would be considered "late" just as if they were late in their start position, and penalized accordingly.

Which leaves Panel Quiz and Volleyball. Color Guard doesn't do Volleyball, instead they have two different presentation events, so while Color Guard would almost be easier to be done entirely via remote, Color Guard is an easy 1 day plus the afternoon/evening before, on an optimized schedule.

Quote from: wowcap on August 14, 2013, 02:10:16 AM
Effective immediately and continuing during this off year a group of dedicated individuals from each region and our NHQ staff will take a hard look at how we can best reorganize this premier CAP National Cadet Special Activity.

The primary rationale for this strategic pause is funding and an overall restructure so we can include more cadets at all levels of competition.  NCC, in its current format is an expensive program for our organization. Despite significant internal restructuring to the schedule, competition location and the Staff's creative measures, NCC has become one of the most expensive cadet activities, with CAP National Headquarters executing a budget of nearly $130,000 annually from an ever-tightening budget for national cadet activities. Unfortunately, financial realities drive cadet activity decisions to a large extent.

Can anyone verify this from another official source?

Not denying it, but I haven't seen anything on this from NHQ, and it appears more then one wing
is proceeding as if there is no change.   Someone updated Wikipedia, but I can't find a single authoritative mention.

Someone paraphrased what was said during the NCC awards and wrap up. 

It's Wikipedia ;-)

Yes, they're working on things..

I wish someone would publish something definitive, including what, if anything the expectations or limitations are
below National.

I'll have to take a look at the video segments I have, I think I recorded it.

There was also a letter that circulated to at least the Wing level, directed at Command and Cadet Programs sections.

This is why more units like ours should get involved in Drill Leagues hosted by JROTC units, I'm also a volunteer coach for a Army JROTC Drill Team in Oregon that took 4th place at the National High School Drill Competition in Daytona Beach, FL this last year.

Many JROTC units will form multi-branch leagues or participate in official service branch meets. Ie Army Cadet Command probably does the best, but our JROTC teams only get involved in the Cascade Mountains Drill League with 14+ JROTC units in Oregon and Washington that includes all services, mostly Army and Navy, little Air Force, and one Marine Corp program. We can only have our High school aged CAP cadets compete in this league, but we have very few CAP cadets in our unit that are middle or college age.

Quote from: Alderman on October 21, 2013, 01:22:11 AM
This is why more units like ours should get involved in Drill Leagues hosted by JROTC units, I'm also a volunteer coach for a Army JROTC Drill Team in Oregon that took 4th place at the National High School Drill Competition in Daytona Beach, FL this last year.

What, specifically, is the CAP-focused advantage of drill team, especially if it isn't even within CAP.  The expense and expectations or practice are simply not worth it.

Every unit should have a color guard, and I'd be in favor of some sort of wing-level CGC that stressed relevent skills over tailored uniforms and volleyball, but DT?  Why?

$130k in a corporate Fortune 500 budget is basically nothing.  I dropped a $50,000 prototype motherboard (on the floor) in my previous professional life as an engineer and took the pieces to my manager who laughed, pulled another one out of a box, and handed me another one.  He explained that was why they bought a few extras and to please not drop another one. 

I don't think the value can be determined based on an analysis of how many cadets the competition reaches directly.  Our entire group has benefited tremendously from the participation of our drill team 3 of the last 4 years at NCC.  What some seniors apparently view as an "elite," I see as a group of cadets who are pushing themselves and those around them to be better, to promote, and to get more out of the program.  It's how it played out in my cadet career, and it's how we have used the event here in the Sacramento area. 

It's sad to see that nobody was able to find real sponsorship dollars and fund the activity.  I would think that national could benefit greatly from hiring a full time well compensated person to go out and seek hundreds of thousands of dollars in corporate sponsorship for cadet events.  I would have thought that instead of announcing the demise that a request for assistance right after NCC 2013 in finding funding for NCC 2014 from sponsors would have been a better approach.

It was left up to the lower echelons to decide whether to have a Cadet Competition or not.  Speaking with my colleagues in the other regions, and the report back from our Region commander from the boards, the recommendation was to continue the Competition up to the Region.  I verified with the other Wings that they were still intending to hold a Competition, and all Wings in the Region were unanimous. 

Quote from: Ron1319 on November 18, 2013, 01:37:17 AM
It's sad to see that nobody was able to find real sponsorship dollars and fund the activity.  I would think that national could benefit greatly from hiring a full time well compensated person to go out and seek hundreds of thousands of dollars in corporate sponsorship for cadet events.  I would have thought that instead of announcing the demise that a request for assistance right after NCC 2013 in finding funding for NCC 2014 from sponsors would have been a better approach.

Its not just the funding, although that is certainly the primary impetus.

$130,000 for the number of cadets affected has an ROI attached to it. CAP is not a Fortune 500 company, nor ever will be. It is a 501(c)(3).  $130,000 represents a significant chunk of the CP's budget.   It is not out of line for NHQ to hold up their hands and say "Whoa, hold up a minute here. Lets look at how we can do this better/cheaper/for more people/etc"
(http://theridgewoodblog.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/buford-t-justice-3.jpg)


Monies spent in the execution of the mission(s) must be continually analyzed in terms of impact (nationwide, regionally, locally, number of members impacted, etc), scope, efficacy for the future, etc.

Can't drop a Surrogate Predator ball on the ramp due to poor mx or fat-fingers and have someone laugh and pull another out of the box and say "Don't play basketball with this one."

For a long time, a lot of CAP programs have continued on with lax budget discipline, no analysis of their ROI (tooth-to-tail), etc, because they were well-established programs or had "patrons in high places."   It is incumbent upon the organization in the modern era to continually examine what we're doing thru the lens of efficiency and economy rather than just doing it "the way we always have done it." ("If you do things the way you've always done them, you'll get the results you've always gotten.")

Could funding for NCC have come thru for 2014 (either thru corporate donations, in-kind donations, or solid fundraising)?  Probably.

However, do you raise funds to continue to run an activity that may no longer be fulfilling its originally intended mission (throwing "good money after bad") or do you look at ways to rejigger or replace that activity with one that may have a better long-term effect on the mission area than the one it is replacing?  Might it not be better to look at a different paradigm for NCC?  This requires people to have their sacred cows placed on the train tracks, which causes great angst.

The money and effort should be spent re-focusing the resources on >why< it's important, and then ramping up CGs in all the units
as a "less optional" idea.  Just dump the DT altogether until there's a critical mass of CGs who can at least carry a flag properly.

Having any competition simply to compete wastes everyone's time and winds up with no one in the room.

It's no different then people who think the way to fix ES is to have a SAR Comp.

Both ideas are 180 off.

The purpose and the objectives of the Cadet Competition are clearly stated in 52-4, Chapter 1; hardly just an excuse to have a competition.

But as I stated before, my recommendation was to have it centrally and each team pays their own way there.  Then the debates of how much of CP's budget is spent on it are gone.  We can then get back to having fun!

Quote from: Bluelakes 13 on November 19, 2013, 06:20:50 PM
But as I stated before, my recommendation was to have it centrally and each team pays their own way there.  Then the debates of how much of CP's budget is spent on it are gone.  We can then get back to having fun!

That is part of the problem, of course.  While I genuinely appreciate your service to CAP in general and CP in particular, folks who live in the middle of the country statistically tend to favor "having it centrally and each team pays their own way."

If the competition were to occur in Alaska or PR/USVI, some responses might be different.   :)

This is one of those CAP issues where the answer often lies in the eye of the beholder.  People with college degrees tend to think they should be required for CAP leadership.  Folks comfortably under the H/W requirements sincerely believe everyone else should meet them, too.  Members who live close to a AF clothing sales store don't seem to mind the markup that our vendor needs to charge for AF uniform items.  Hard charging operational types don't see a problem with the size of the CP budget. 

And so it goes . . .



(I'm assuming we would all volunteer to pay our own way if NCC was in Hawaii.  Hmmm, that may be the answer!)

Quote from: Bluelakes 13 on November 19, 2013, 06:20:50 PM
The purpose and the objectives of the Cadet Competition are clearly stated in 52-4, Chapter 1; hardly just an excuse to have a competition.

This is the same as asking what the purpose of the CAC is and being quoted from the pamphlet.

Most units don't even think about CG, and especially DT, until the emails start floating around about competition, that makes it competing for competition's sake and is the reason interest is essentially zero in many wings - it distracts from normal operations and pull resources away from what CC's think is "important".

Localized CG competition is fine, once units are doing them for more reason then just the competition.

Quote from: Eclipse on November 19, 2013, 07:39:08 PMLocalized CG competition is fine, once units are doing them for more reason then just the competition.

Chicken. Egg. Which first?

What if the competition spurs a unit to assemble a color guard or drill team, and they go and use that energy for something else in the community as a result of the item being brought to their attention.

If it takes the dangling carrot, and the result is the same, what's the problem?

Quote from: a2capt on November 19, 2013, 08:11:14 PM

Quote from: Eclipse on November 19, 2013, 07:39:08 PMLocalized CG competition is fine, once units are doing them for more reason then just the competition.

Chicken. Egg. Which first?

What if the competition spurs a unit to assemble a color guard or drill team, and they go and use that energy for something else in the community as a result of the item being brought to their attention.

If it takes the dangling carrot, and the result is the same, what's the problem?

The result has been, basically no one cares.

These types of things should stem from actual need and mission-related skills.  It's like anything else "the boss doesn't think it's important, so neither do I".

"Important" does not equal "thrown together at the last minute".

Quote from: Eclipse on November 19, 2013, 07:39:08 PM
This is the same as asking what the purpose of the CAC is and being quoted from the pamphlet.

Most units don't even think about CG, and especially DT, until the emails start floating around about competition, that makes it competing for competition's sake and is the reason interest is essentially zero in many wings - it distracts from normal operations and pull resources away from what CC's think is "important".

Localized CG competition is fine, once units are doing them for more reason then just the competition.

Let's pretend three experienced seniors decide to join a back woods unit in a little secluded town up in the hills in California.  California isn't exactly a wing that is known for always doing their best to make Phase IV cadets or cadets who attend national activities, especially in Northern California.  We're about as far away from Wing HQ as Ohio is from North Carolina.  We have to find a plan to grow the unit, expose them to the other units in the group, get them participating in the wing, encourage them to promote, and get them going to national activities.

Since we all participated in drill team when we were cadets, and understand just how important and motivating it is, we decide that drill team will be the path to get us there, and a very important part of the plan.  We are fortunate enough to have a great group of seniors around us, so we start training the senior cadets at the 10-ish person squadron, start recruiting and start growing the unit.  All the while, we're encouraging the other squadrons in the group to start thinking about drill team and finding out who the best cadets in the group are.  We manage to pull enough together to train a drill team.  We win at wing.  There is no other competition at region, mostly because the region is so spread out, and we go to NCC.  The cadets are highly motivated, dedicated, and focused on the goal.  They feel like they're competing for something greater.  Every one of them WANTS to go back the next year, but many of them can not.

The following year, we get about half of the team back, and go pull another 8 cadets or so from other units in the group.  The top cadets in their squadrons.  They focus, try hard, and are around all of the other cadets in their squadrons.  Some of them are sacrificing to be there.  Some of them get up early on Saturday mornings and drive 2-3 hours to meet in the most viable central location.  Most of them attend almost all of the practices.  We go back to NCC and win in standard drill and take a nice solid third place finish. 

That's enough of the story to illustrate the point.  Drill team is not at all about the people who go to the competition directly.  It's about all of the people who those top cadets in the group go back and influence in their units.  It's about those cadets pushing each other and pushing those around them to promote and be better in CAP. 

The results for us?  When we started there were perhaps two cadets in the group who were cadet officers.  We fielded a team last year with only 3 NCOs.  We have two Spaatzen who have been to NCC, and we have two C/LtCs who have been to NCC who are testing.  We have many more cadet officers in the squadron and the group who have never been to NCC who have been mentored and pushed and encouraged and grown by those who have. 

Could we have done it another way?  Maybe.  I don't know what that method would have looked like or how we could have gotten those cadets to commit to spending that much time with one another to make it happen in a group that is as large as many wings.  I believe that we are talking about the equivalent of cadets driving from Dayton and Cincinnati and Cleveland to meet in Columbus for drill team practices a couple of times a month for 5-6 months to prepare.  We aren't talking about CA wing, just our group around Sacramento. 

I know how much my drill team experience was valuable to me as a cadet and how much I grew from it.  I know how much it has been valuable to our cadets who have gone.  I know how valuable it is to those cadets in the group who have learned from those who have gone. 

Should I have had to wait until every unit in the group was participating in a color guard competition before being able to field an NCC team?  We are clearly coming from much different places.  We're supposed to grow leaders.  We are supposed to grow Phase IV cadets to lead.  We are supposed to grow units.  We are supposed to encourage cadets to make friends from other units and build memories that they will remember for the rest of their lives. 

Whoever wrote this knew what they were talking about, and it's sad that you don't understand it and that national doesn't understand it enough to fight for it and find a way to continue the program uninterrupted:

a. Purposes of the National Cadet Competition (NCC).
(1) To provide incentive and motivation for cadets to train and attain goals in leadership,
aerospace education, physical fitness and teamwork.
(2) To provide an opportunity for cadets to increase esprit de corps through excellence in
training and performance.
(3) To provide a public validation of the objectives of the Civil Air Patrol (CAP) Cadet
Program.

I will share one last story.  One of our cadets from last year started off the season not being able to run a mile.  His form was bad, his core strength was bad, his motivation was poor at best to run.  He felt he was really bad at it and didn't have any direction as to why.  We taught him.  He ran several times a week.  He ran a very respectable mile at NCC, and has continued to run on his own time.

Disassembling it, or even postponing it for a year, means that we get to start all over again if the competition comes back in the future.  We have no real opportunity for a real wing or region competition.  The wing and the region are simply too big.  We work for NCC.  Color guard is of no use to us for our objectives because we do not want to grow C/CMSgts.  We want to grow Cadet Colonels.

I fail to see how something which distracts so much from the core mission and activities of CAP, like DT, is an overall advantage to anything
but the DT itself.

Run like the pamphlets, with invested, mature adults, limitations on practice time and expenses, and participated in by cadets who
are expected to treat DT like an extracurricular activity, one can certainly see why and how people would enjoy it and see it's value.

I can only say that my experience, as a commander who had to deal with the negative consequences of an improperly run "program",
is that the risks of letting it run unfettered are too high, and the activities too far off the normal CAP mark to be disappointed to see it paused.

Then it's a shame that CAPtalk appears to lack a block button.

Quote from: Ron1319 on November 19, 2013, 08:22:10 PM
Whoever wrote this knew what they were talking about, and it's sad that you don't understand it and that national doesn't understand it enough to fight for it and find a way to continue the program uninterrupted:

a. Purposes of the National Cadet Competition (NCC).
(1) To provide incentive and motivation for cadets to train and attain goals in leadership,
aerospace education, physical fitness and teamwork.
(2) To provide an opportunity for cadets to increase esprit de corps through excellence in
training and performance.
(3) To provide a public validation of the objectives of the Civil Air Patrol (CAP) Cadet
Program.

Didn't the same people who wrote that great statement of purpose come up with the idea of pausing the NCC? I agree with Darin's remark. We have some good purposes here, no one doubts that, but the program is stagnant and irrelevant to 80% of units, so let's go back to the drawing board. Your remark above is contradictory for that reason.

Quote from: Ron1319 on November 19, 2013, 08:22:10 PM
Disassembling it, or even postponing it for a year, means that we get to start all over again if the competition comes back in the future.  We have no real opportunity for a real wing or region competition.  The wing and the region are simply too big.  We work for NCC.  Color guard is of no use to us for our objectives because we do not want to grow C/CMSgts.  We want to grow Cadet Colonels.

Is your Group/Wing/Region still conducting a Group/Wing/Region competition cycle for 2014?

If your wing and region are "simply too big," then how big, exactly, is the National Competition?

National HQ suspending NCC for a year to re-evaluate, re-assess and make changes to the program for 2015 in no way prohibits your region, wing or group from continuing to hold competitions as they have in the past.  All that changes is that you don't have to travel to Maxwell/Dayton/McMinville/wherever in 2014.

Quote from: Ron1319 on November 19, 2013, 08:22:10 PMLet's pretend three experienced seniors decide to join a back woods unit in a little secluded town up in the hills in California.  California isn't exactly a wing that is known for always doing their best to make Phase IV cadets or cadets who attend national activities, especially in Northern California. 

I don't know..  if I'd agree with that statement.

.. that it being "especially" the northern section.  ;)

Quote from: Ron1319 on November 19, 2013, 08:35:38 PM
Then it's a shame that CAPtalk appears to lack a block button.

It actually does, it just doesn't really do anything meaningful.

Your post above makes my point - DT has to be ramped up, and if it pauses people lose interest.

Why?

Because nothing involved is part of normal cadet life, except to some extent the knowledge portion.

These competitions should be focused on things that are a relative normal part of a cadet's life
and on skills useful in helping the unit and the program grow, not helping the comp program grow.

Self-perpetuation is not one of our missions.

I also agree with Ned's post and it shows another evolutionary and serious weakness in CAP as an organization -
namely allowing members to treat CAP like a menu to the exclusion of anything else.

There are "NCC people", "encampment people", "ES people", etc., etc., and in a lot of cases
those folks could care less about anything but their "thing" and only when their thing is impacted
by someone else's thing.  You never see these people at anything but their "thing", and
the state of CAP as a whole generally escapes them. 

I don't think we should let the non-trivial scoring and judging issues that have come up over the last few years
fall by the wayside, either.

That's a technical problem that should be an easy fix, but for some reason happened on more then one occasion.

Anything that calls into question the integrity of outcome is a major nail in the coffin when commanders decide
what to support.

Quote from: NIN on November 19, 2013, 08:58:39 PM
Is your Group/Wing/Region still conducting a Group/Wing/Region competition cycle for 2014?

If your wing and region are "simply too big," then how big, exactly, is the National Competition?

National HQ suspending NCC for a year to re-evaluate, re-assess and make changes to the program for 2015 in no way prohibits your region, wing or group from continuing to hold competitions as they have in the past.  All that changes is that you don't have to travel to Maxwell/Dayton/McMinville/wherever in 2014.

You appear to not understand how big Pacific Coast Region is.  We have no group competition because we pull a team from the group and it's not viable for the squadrons in the group to participate in the drill team competition because each squadron that would participate has a color guard that draws too many cadets to leave enough for drill teams.  Wing competition is about 8 hours away and we often have either no team to compete against or a single team who is not very well prepared.  We haven't had a "real" competition at wing in the last 4 years.  Last year's region competition was based on video submissions of drill events last year and a written test even though the team from Nevada was also willing to travel to participate in person.  Our region includes Hawaii and Alaska.  Washington is about 12 hours away by car. 

Our competition is NCC.  Without it we have no motivation to field a team.

National Headquarters is not going to be able to restructure NCC to make it so that every group in Pacific Coast region fields a team. 

As far as "taking a year off to come back in 2015," I don't see any official statement anywhere committing to having a competition in 2015.  I don't see a list of people who are responsible for delivering the plan.  I don't see a list of sources where funding is going to come from.  All I have is an understanding that NCC is "on hold."

Sam -- You think the same people that wrote the NCC Manual and those goals are still sitting at National HQ deciding that it's not worth the effort to go find sponsors to fund NCC 2014?

You've just outlined the reasons this is failing, there isn't enough interest to sustain it.

Because of seniors like you who have no understanding of how important a part of the cadet program it is.

Seriously, I'm sure we spend more than $130k on the cadet program.  Just axe it entirely so that Eclipse can focus on the real mission of CAP.  After all, there are less than 10 cadets in 80% of squadrons, and most of them don't get to become cadet officers.  We don't really need them anyway.  I'm sure the cadet program could just "take a year off."

Quote from: Ron1319 on November 19, 2013, 10:20:15 PM
Seriously, I'm sure we spend more than $130k on the cadet program.  Just axe it entirely so that Eclipse can focus on the real mission of CAP.  After all, there are less than 10 cadets in 80% of squadrons, and most of them don't get to become cadet officers.  We don't really need them anyway.  I'm sure the cadet program could just "take a year off."

The "real mission of CAP" is the "missions of CAP", which is exactly where we should be focused, and not allow extracurricular activities
get in the way.

How is this in any way connected to whether or not cadets become officers?

Quote from: Ron1319 on November 19, 2013, 10:18:04 PM
Because of seniors like you who have no understanding of how important a part of the cadet program it is.

"Seniors like me" are not the ones who had the reins and couldn't communicate that "importance".

Point the fingers all you like, place blame anywhere it helps you feel better, but the fact is that
your wing and region isn't interested in the idea enough to sustain the proper scope of local competition,
so you were leaning on the national level to sustain your wing's participation.

That ain't how it works.

Quote from: Ron1319 on November 19, 2013, 10:18:04 PM
Because of seniors like you who have no understanding of how important a part of the cadet program it is.

You are simply proving his point. This is your thing, so the cadet program falls without it. The national CP team and many others believe encampment is the thing that is real important. Others believe it's all about the weekend activities, and others think the meat and potatoes are done at the weekly meetings.

In your area, for whatever reason cadets didn't promote into Phase III without drill team. In my area cadets were so wrapped up in drill team they couldn't be bothered with the Mitchell or even Phase II.

Somehow most of my friends and I made it to be Cadet Officers, and hell, even some Spaatz cadets without ever joining the DT Cult in our wing. Oh, but we all did staff a lot of encampments. I would venture to say Honor Guard is a really cool, and really important thing for the Cadet Program. After all, I went to HGA, and I have the hat to prove it. But that's just my opinion, and in no way would I say that the cadets who do Honor Guard or even just regular color guard during the rest of the year that isn't NCC, are any worse or better than any other cadets.

You are making correlations that don't exist, simply because you are wrapped up on your thing. The rest of CAP, much like the rest of CAP and CapTalk are simply not connected.

When I was a cadet, drill team was a big deal in my squadron. Most cadets worked hard to join the drill team and took pride on what they did. We learned about excellence, leadership and competition. We developed a strong esprit de corps. We made friends, we challenged each other and it was fun.

I have many good memories from those days as a cadet (encampments, cadet staff, NCSA, ES), but of all those, our drill team holds a special place.

I don't think that NCC or drill teams in general should be the focus of the Cadet Programs, but it's definitely one of many tools it has to encourage cadets to learn, participate, grow and become leaders. I hope NHQ can come up with a solution that works for everyone.

Quote from: Ron1319 on November 19, 2013, 09:30:37 PM

You appear to not understand how big Pacific Coast Region is. 

There is NO such thing as "Pacific Coast Region".  It's Pacific Region. >:(

If this is an example of the attention to detail that the NCC produces, then good riddence!

Burn? Lol.

Life is full of disappointments, this current NCC situation is just one more example.  I feel for all those Cadets (and Seniors) that invested their time, money and effort into the NCC!

Unfortunately, the complaining and discussions about this activity cancelation all have a common tone and underlying message that is far more serious...

1. To those units that spend lots of money, time and attention toward preparing for the competitions, are your non drill team/ honor guard/ color guard cadet accomplishments equally identifiable?

2. Can the units cadet statistics clearly show successful program implementation?

3. Are weekly meetings simply an opportunity for the drill team to recruit new team members, while providing additional practice time?

4. What percent of yearly unit funds go toward "the team" and associated expenses?

5. Is the units Facebook/ web page almost entirely devoted to the team?

6. Are you fearful that you will lose cadets if NCC goes away?

Quote from: Patterson on November 20, 2013, 12:37:27 AM
Life is full of disappointments, this current NCC situation is just one more example.  I feel for all those Cadets (and Seniors) that invested their time, money and effort into the NCC!

The only issue I have with this is that just because the program is canceled or changed doesn't negate the experiences already had. 
Any reasonable expense or equipment should be usable in normal operations (anything >not< usable in normal ops is part of the problem),
and whatever "value" this brings to the program as a whole should still be there.  Or is the volleyball court the only place to teach leadership?

If excellence in drill is the goal, what's stopping you from continuing that?

Quote from: Patterson on November 20, 2013, 12:37:27 AM
Unfortunately, the complaining and discussions about this activity cancelation all have a common tone and underlying message that is far more serious...

1. To those units that spend lots of money, time and attention toward preparing for the competitions, are your non drill team/ honor guard/ color guard cadet accomplishments equally identifiable?

2. Can the units cadet statistics clearly show successful program implementation?

3. Are weekly meetings simply an opportunity for the drill team to recruit new team members, while providing additional practice time?

4. What percent of yearly unit funds go toward "the team" and associated expenses?

5. Is the units Facebook/ web page almost entirely devoted to the team?

6. Are you fearful that you will lose cadets if NCC goes away?

+1 on this.

Quote from: Ron1319 on November 19, 2013, 09:30:37 PM
You appear to not understand how big Pacific Coast Region is.

You're right. I had no idea.   All the time I spent in CAP since 1981 (minus the 4 years I was "retired"), I never bothered to look at anything west of the Mississippi.

I understand Pacific Region is large. No kidding.  Not a news flash.  Thanks a lot Hawaii & Alaska for blowing the curve on "distance" for the rest of us (wait.. wait.. lets wait for the TX Wing guys to weigh in on their ONE STATE...)

QuoteWe have no group competition because we pull a team from the group and it's not viable for the squadrons in the group to participate in the drill team competition because each squadron that would participate has a color guard that draws too many cadets to leave enough for drill teams.

Wait, what?

Major, you told us that the whole NCC process is all about building up viable squadrons and cadets.

Then, above, you tell me that your GROUP is unable to conduct a competition on its own because it is not viable for the squadrons to participate due to their COLOR GUARDS?

I'm sorry. That dog just don't hunt.

I might be some bumkin living in a little tiny state like New Hampshire (9,350 sq miles. 3 of it will fit into San Bernadino County. Totally get it. The West is big, tracking..), but you're telling me that your ENTIRE group can't have a drill team comp? 11 squadrons can't put enough cadets down on the drill pad so you can have a couple 14-16 cadet drill teams and a couple 5-cadet color guards? 

I am SURE I am missing something here.  Your squadron must be incredibly small to not be able to field a drill team.

I did a little math:

Group 5, CA Wing, has 11 squadrons, one of which is a school squadron so we'll throw it out entirely just to work with a round number.

10 squadrons, minimum size is 12 cadets to remain chartered, right?

120 cadets in the group, at a bare minimum.

120 cadets and you can't field 2 drill teams and a couple 3-4 color guard teams?

Sounds to me like a group drill comp is JUST THE THING to promote the ideals and principles of the cadet program and cadet competition and help STRENGTHEN the local units at the SAME TIME!  WOW

And even better, its LOCAL!  The furthest unit in your group is 2.5 hrs from Group HQ. In Pacific Region terms, that's walking distance, right?   Surely, even if you excluded the two units furthest from Group HQ as "too lazy to drive to Group," the other 6 or 7 squadrons could have a drill team or two, right?

QuoteWing competition is about 8 hours away and we often have either no team to compete against or a single team who is not very well prepared.  We haven't had a "real" competition at wing in the last 4 years.  Last year's region competition was based on video submissions of drill events last year and a written test even though the team from Nevada was also willing to travel to participate in person.  Our region includes Hawaii and Alaska.  Washington is about 12 hours away by car.

I'm confused. You can't field a squadron team for a group comp, so you have to field a team to go to wing comp, but you said wing comp sucks, so then region comp is pretty far flung....

Are you saying you just want a pass to go right to the National Competition on the basis of your squadron can't put a team together for a local comp, doesn't want to put forth the effort for the wing comp, and the region is too big for effective competition?  I am sure I didn't read that right.

QuoteOur competition is NCC.  Without it we have no motivation to field a team.

What?
(http://www.abload.de/img/colpotter6400.jpg)
Horse hockey!

Your competition is not NCC. At the squadron level, your competition is the other squadrons in your group.  Your goal might be to go all the way to the National competition, and thats great.  But thats a GOAL, not competition. 

And at least for 2014, without a National Competition, you're out of luck there. 

So why can't your goal be PCR competition?  Why can't your goal be wing competition?  How about a goal being "have a large and viable enough unit to send a drill team to the group, wing and region competition that consists only of cadets from this squadron?"

That sounds like a pretty darn good goal.

QuoteNational Headquarters is not going to be able to restructure NCC to make it so that every group in Pacific Coast region fields a team.

Huh? I'm confused.  Why would NHQ restructure NCC so that every group in Pacific Region fields a team? I don't get what you mean here.

QuoteAs far as "taking a year off to come back in 2015," I don't see any official statement anywhere committing to having a competition in 2015.  I don't see a list of people who are responsible for delivering the plan.  I don't see a list of sources where funding is going to come from.  All I have is an understanding that NCC is "on hold."

So far, there has not been that level of statement that I have seen.  I believe the word has been put out to the Region DCPs (John K, can you confirm?) about wings and regions continuing to run their competitions if they so desire.

I'm sure we'll see guidance eventually. I do know the CP shop has its hands full with the CPP draft & possible roll out, the encampment guidelines draft and eventual roll out, and some other stuff in the hopper.  But just because nobody has graced your inbox with a "We'll be back in 2015!" email doesn't mean that isn't the plan.

Bummer that NCC 2014 is on hold.  The bottom line, however, is that it doesn't mean that you cannot participate in a local, wing or region competition. And win.

Quote from: Patterson on November 20, 2013, 12:37:27 AM
Life is full of disappointments, this current NCC situation is just one more example.  I feel for all those Cadets (and Seniors) that invested their time, money and effort into the NCC!

Unfortunately, the complaining and discussions about this activity cancelation all have a common tone and underlying message that is far more serious...

1. To those units that spend lots of money, time and attention toward preparing for the competitions, are your non drill team/ honor guard/ color guard cadet accomplishments equally identifiable?

2. Can the units cadet statistics clearly show successful program implementation?

3. Are weekly meetings simply an opportunity for the drill team to recruit new team members, while providing additional practice time?

4. What percent of yearly unit funds go toward "the team" and associated expenses?

5. Is the units Facebook/ web page almost entirely devoted to the team?

6. Are you fearful that you will lose cadets if NCC goes away?

I don't know where you're from, but I'll just put it like this:

(http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/WI9vlbr7xNU/hqdefault.jpg)
"I wanna party with you, cowboy. You and me together? Forget it!"

Magic.

QuoteCalifornia isn't exactly a wing that is known for always doing their best to make Phase IV cadets or cadets who attend national activities, especially in Northern California.

I'm not sure I even know what that means. Wings "...make Phase IV cadets...?" Wings make cadets "...who attend national activities...?"

Let's see now, what does CA WG do for cadets that might provide leadership and growth opportunities...?

Annual Cadet Program Conference, since 1972; A 250-300 person encampment most years since 1973, usually incorporating a Group structure with 3 squadrons, 10-12 flights; Integrated Leadership Program, including dedicated schools for Basic cadets, cadet NCOs, cadet senior NCOs, plus a Cadet Officers Basic Course that has been designated as a RCLS and an Advanced Cadet Staff Seminar; an in-development Drill and Ceremonies school that has already had at least two prototype events; Cadet Advisory Council.

Sounds like a lot to me, with ample opportunities to assist those who "make Phase IV cadets" at the Squadron and Group levels. Have you been to any? Do you send your cadets to them?

Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on November 20, 2013, 02:58:03 PM

QuoteCalifornia isn't exactly a wing that is known for always doing their best to make Phase IV cadets or cadets who attend national activities, especially in Northern California.

I'm not sure I even know what that means. Wings "...make Phase IV cadets...?" Wings make cadets "...who attend national activities...?"

Let's see now, what does CA WG do for cadets that might provide leadership and growth opportunities...?

Annual Cadet Program Conference, since 1972; A 250-300 person encampment most years since 1973, usually incorporating a Group structure with 3 squadrons, 10-12 flights; Integrated Leadership Program, including dedicated schools for Basic cadets, cadet NCOs, cadet senior NCOs, plus a Cadet Officers Basic Course that has been designated as a RCLS and an Advanced Cadet Staff Seminar; an in-development Drill and Ceremonies school that has already had at least two prototype events; Cadet Advisory Council.

Sounds like a lot to me, with ample opportunities to assist those who "make Phase IV cadets" at the Squadron and Group levels. Have you been to any? Do you send your cadets to them?

If it's anything like my Wing DT was, then these activities interfered with their practice time...

Quote from: NIN on November 20, 2013, 02:17:49 AM

Quote from: Ron1319 on November 19, 2013, 09:30:37 PM
You appear to not understand how big Pacific Coast Region is.

You're right. I had no idea.   All the time I spent in CAP since 1981 (minus the 4 years I was "retired"), I never bothered to look at anything west of the Mississippi.

I understand Pacific Region is large. No kidding.  Not a news flash.  Thanks a lot Hawaii & Alaska for blowing the curve on "distance" for the rest of us (wait.. wait.. lets wait for the TX Wing guys to weigh in on their ONE STATE...)

QuoteWe have no group competition because we pull a team from the group and it's not viable for the squadrons in the group to participate in the drill team competition because each squadron that would participate has a color guard that draws too many cadets to leave enough for drill teams.

Wait, what?

Major, you told us that the whole NCC process is all about building up viable squadrons and cadets.

Then, above, you tell me that your GROUP is unable to conduct a competition on its own because it is not viable for the squadrons to participate due to their COLOR GUARDS?

I'm sorry. That dog just don't hunt.

I might be some bumkin living in a little tiny state like New Hampshire (9,350 sq miles. 3 of it will fit into San Bernadino County. Totally get it. The West is big, tracking..), but you're telling me that your ENTIRE group can't have a drill team comp? 11 squadrons can't put enough cadets down on the drill pad so you can have a couple 14-16 cadet drill teams and a couple 5-cadet color guards? 

I am SURE I am missing something here.  Your squadron must be incredibly small to not be able to field a drill team.

I did a little math:

Group 5, CA Wing, has 11 squadrons, one of which is a school squadron so we'll throw it out entirely just to work with a round number.

10 squadrons, minimum size is 12 cadets to remain chartered, right?

120 cadets in the group, at a bare minimum.

120 cadets and you can't field 2 drill teams and a couple 3-4 color guard teams?

Sounds to me like a group drill comp is JUST THE THING to promote the ideals and principles of the cadet program and cadet competition and help STRENGTHEN the local units at the SAME TIME!  WOW

And even better, its LOCAL!  The furthest unit in your group is 2.5 hrs from Group HQ. In Pacific Region terms, that's walking distance, right?   Surely, even if you excluded the two units furthest from Group HQ as "too lazy to drive to Group," the other 6 or 7 squadrons could have a drill team or two, right?

QuoteWing competition is about 8 hours away and we often have either no team to compete against or a single team who is not very well prepared.  We haven't had a "real" competition at wing in the last 4 years.  Last year's region competition was based on video submissions of drill events last year and a written test even though the team from Nevada was also willing to travel to participate in person.  Our region includes Hawaii and Alaska.  Washington is about 12 hours away by car.

I'm confused. You can't field a squadron team for a group comp, so you have to field a team to go to wing comp, but you said wing comp sucks, so then region comp is pretty far flung....

Are you saying you just want a pass to go right to the National Competition on the basis of your squadron can't put a team together for a local comp, doesn't want to put forth the effort for the wing comp, and the region is too big for effective competition?  I am sure I didn't read that right.

QuoteOur competition is NCC.  Without it we have no motivation to field a team.

What?
(http://www.abload.de/img/colpotter6400.jpg)
Horse hockey!

Your competition is not NCC. At the squadron level, your competition is the other squadrons in your group.  Your goal might be to go all the way to the National competition, and thats great.  But thats a GOAL, not competition.

And at least for 2014, without a National Competition, you're out of luck there. 

So why can't your goal be PCR competition?  Why can't your goal be wing competition?  How about a goal being "have a large and viable enough unit to send a drill team to the group, wing and region competition that consists only of cadets from this squadron?"

That sounds like a pretty darn good goal.

QuoteNational Headquarters is not going to be able to restructure NCC to make it so that every group in Pacific Coast region fields a team.

Huh? I'm confused.  Why would NHQ restructure NCC so that every group in Pacific Region fields a team? I don't get what you mean here.

QuoteAs far as "taking a year off to come back in 2015," I don't see any official statement anywhere committing to having a competition in 2015.  I don't see a list of people who are responsible for delivering the plan.  I don't see a list of sources where funding is going to come from.  All I have is an understanding that NCC is "on hold."

So far, there has not been that level of statement that I have seen.  I believe the word has been put out to the Region DCPs (John K, can you confirm?) about wings and regions continuing to run their competitions if they so desire.

I'm sure we'll see guidance eventually. I do know the CP shop has its hands full with the CPP draft & possible roll out, the encampment guidelines draft and eventual roll out, and some other stuff in the hopper.  But just because nobody has graced your inbox with a "We'll be back in 2015!" email doesn't mean that isn't the plan.

Bummer that NCC 2014 is on hold.  The bottom line, however, is that it doesn't mean that you cannot participate in a local, wing or region competition. And win.

While I would like for NCC to continue in the future, you made a very strong argument and I agree 100%. If a squadron doesn't have enough interested members to field a drill team for a group competition, the group doesn't have enough participation from the squadrons for a group competition, the wing competition is not challenging enough because of the level and quality of participation from the groups, and the region competition is just lip service (a video demo and a test) and not a true competition, then the objectives of NCC are not really being met.

NCC is supposed to be a true national competition, not a free pass for one or two teams. As I said, I would like NCC to continue if, and only if, it's meeting the objectives of the program. In the case of Ron1319's drill team, I believe it's not, based on the information he's provided on his posts.

Quote from: NIN on November 20, 2013, 02:17:49 AM
So far, there has not been that level of statement that I have seen.  I believe the word has been put out to the Region DCPs (John K, can you confirm?) about wings and regions continuing to run their competitions if they so desire.

CORRECT!  The paragraph quoted at the beginning from Gen Carr also has "I strongly encourage Wing and Region Level competition to continue during this pause in 2014."

Quote from: usafaux2004 on November 20, 2013, 03:38:22 PMIf it's anything like my Wing DT was, then these activities interfered with their practice time...

What Ron1319 is trying to say .. perhaps is not coming across well in words here.

It's kind of the reverse of this more likely .. when you've got the establishment pounding to the tune of .. "It's all about Encampment.." and stretching back into the years when discretionary grade was "the thing". "I'm a c/capt in the CTG, so you have to listen to me, or encampment is going to be heck for you.." and the rest of these other activities are "frowned upon" because that 'establishment' can't have it's own way at them.

Perhaps the pendulum is swinging the other direction now.. and can be kept in check for a bit.

Quote from: Patterson on November 20, 2013, 12:37:27 AM
1. To those units that spend lots of money, time and attention toward preparing for the competitions, are your non drill team/ honor guard/ color guard cadet accomplishments equally identifiable?

Yes.  One of our non-drill team cadets went to IACE last summer and tested for his Spaatz before leaving for college.  He didn't pass all of the parts, but he will.  He was the Wing CAC chair last year, if I'm not mistaken.

2. Can the units cadet statistics clearly show successful program implementation?

We have received the quality unit award two years in a row, send more cadets to encampment than any other squadron in the wing, and I believe had more cadets on staff, but I'm not positive about that part.

3. Are weekly meetings simply an opportunity for the drill team to recruit new team members, while providing additional practice time?

Our squadron had 7 cadets on drill team and averages about 50 cadets at meetings.  We have never had drill team practice time during squadron meetings. 

4. What percent of yearly unit funds go toward "the team" and associated expenses?

5%?  Maybe 10%.  We contributed $80/cadet towards their expenses for each cadet on the team, so about $550.  The squadron has significant fund raising.  I'm not sure what the exact income figure is, but probably about $6,000/year. 

5. Is the units Facebook/ web page almost entirely devoted to the team?

The unit's FB/web page contains almost nothing about drill team.

6. Are you fearful that you will lose cadets if NCC goes away?

Over time, 100% sure.  Due to second order effects.

Quote from: a2capt on November 20, 2013, 06:37:45 PM

Quote from: usafaux2004 on November 20, 2013, 03:38:22 PMIf it's anything like my Wing DT was, then these activities interfered with their practice time...

What Ron1319 is trying to say .. perhaps is not coming across well in words here.

It's kind of the reverse of this more likely .. when you've got the establishment pounding to the tune of .. "It's all about Encampment.." and stretching back into the years when discretionary grade was "the thing". "I'm a c/capt in the CTG, so you have to listen to me, or encampment is going to be heck for you.." and the rest of these other activities are "frowned upon" because that 'establishment' can't have it's own way at them.

Perhaps the pendulum is swinging the other direction now.. and can be kept in check for a bit.

I haven't been around CAWG for any of that.  Discretionary grade was OK in Ohio Wing for the last time during my basic encampment in 1993.  My years on encampment staff as a cadet were wearing the grade I earned.  I found it disturbing that CAWG old timers were still arguing for discretionary grade at the Cadet Program Conference a couple of years ago. 

Quote from: NIN on November 20, 2013, 02:17:49 AM

QuoteWe have no group competition because we pull a team from the group and it's not viable for the squadrons in the group to participate in the drill team competition because each squadron that would participate has a color guard that draws too many cadets to leave enough for drill teams.

Wait, what?

Major, you told us that the whole NCC process is all about building up viable squadrons and cadets.

Then, above, you tell me that your GROUP is unable to conduct a competition on its own because it is not viable for the squadrons to participate due to their COLOR GUARDS?

I'm sorry. That dog just don't hunt.

So a 10 person squadron commits 5 cadets to a color guard team.  That leaves them with another 5 cadets.  They're supposed to practice with two other squadrons to form a combined squadron drill team?  After their best 5 NCOs were just put on a color guard.

And then I'm supposed to take 5 of my best NCOs and send them to the color guard competition while trying to find 14 other cadets in my unit who want to form a drill team, since we are one of the largest units in the region and pretty high on the national rankings.  What you're suggesting is that I should try to convince more than half of my active cadets that they are going to focus on competition. 

Our color guard practices all of the time and does a few extra practices before competitions.  Drill team is, as I say it is, a team pulled of the best cadets in the group with the goal in mind of going to NCC to be competitive.  We have done so with once or twice a month practices starting in about January and with a couple of weekend long practices before NCC. 

We were unable to have practice during CAWG encampment because the majority of our cadets were off staffing encampment, something which we have been encouraging for years.

QuoteAnnual Cadet Program Conference, since 1972; A 250-300 person encampment most years since 1973, usually incorporating a Group structure with 3 squadrons, 10-12 flights; Integrated Leadership Program, including dedicated schools for Basic cadets, cadet NCOs, cadet senior NCOs, plus a Cadet Officers Basic Course that has been designated as a RCLS and an Advanced Cadet Staff Seminar; an in-development Drill and Ceremonies school that has already had at least two prototype events; Cadet Advisory Council.

My drill team commander has been highly involved in helping develop that D&C school along with Capt Sanford.  I trained him, so ironically you just took credit for work that came from our drill team.

CPC is a social event with some classes.  The act of lining up the cadets and parading the girls up the middle with their "dates" was one of the most bizarre and uncomfortable experiences of my senior career.  I was driving van loads of cadets to the banquet and the degree to which the girls were uncomfortable with being paraded was astonishing.  Fix that "tradition" and we can talk about ways that CPC could be improved.

Encampment is about 8 hours away.  Several of our cadets had to previously go to WA/OR winter encampment in order to find staffing opportunities.  Now it seems that encampment is accepting staff from Nor Cal.  Prior to last year, it seemed like it was entirely staffed by cadets from SoCal.  Our cadets have to get to a staff selection exercise that is 8 hours away for a weekend.  The process of being involved in encampment is extremely difficult, but several of them did it last year.

As for the ILP, my brother-in-law started running weekend programs for the group a couple of years ago.  I wasn't personally involved with them but many of our cadets attended/staffed/ran them. I don't understand what it supposedly means to "receive credit" for one of them, since they count towards nothing.  I think a well run squadron replaces the need for them, and good cadet leadership and a strong squadron makes them redundant.  I did drive a couple cadets to one of the higher level ones a year or so ago.  We have had several cadets attend COS from the drill team in the last couple of years.

And this has exactly "what" to do with the fact that PCR has little to no interest in NCC?

You either have enough people to participate properly, or you don't. 

Tacking the totality of the typical ills of CAP on the wall as some conspiracy to kill NCC doesn't work.

Quote from: Eclipse on November 21, 2013, 01:47:11 AM
And this has exactly "what" to do with the fact that PCR has little to no interest in NCC?

You either have enough people to participate properly, or you don't. 

Tacking the totality of the typical ills of CAP on the wall as some conspiracy to kill NCC doesn't work.

It's not a wacky conspiracy theory if they're actually out to get you.

As for having enough people, we had to cut 3 cadets from drill team last year because we had 17 good cadets and could only take 14 to NCC.  They were invited to continue to practice, to fill in for anyone missing from practice during innovative, to continue to play volleyball with the team, and to be a part of the team "next year." 

As for PCR not really having any interest, PCR has recently always been a top contender in the CG comp at NCC. 

There seems to be a lack of understanding of the fact that NCC has been the highest level of competition.  We're dealing with experienced cadet officers who understand the bigger picture.  We can't fool them into thinking that a region competition has the same weight, value or motivation as NCC.  If we were in a region with many competitive teams, then region competition would be more meaningful, but we are not.

Quote from: Bluelakes 13 on November 20, 2013, 06:18:32 PM

Quote from: NIN on November 20, 2013, 02:17:49 AM
So far, there has not been that level of statement that I have seen.  I believe the word has been put out to the Region DCPs (John K, can you confirm?) about wings and regions continuing to run their competitions if they so desire.

CORRECT!  The paragraph quoted at the beginning from Gen Carr also has "I strongly encourage Wing and Region Level competition to continue during this pause in 2014."

I would like to point out that the title of the thread is "No more NCC."

Ron, how many of the 9 QUA criteria did you guys hit? 8? 7?

Quote from: Ron1319 on November 21, 2013, 02:00:40 AM

Quote from: Eclipse on November 21, 2013, 01:47:11 AM
And this has exactly "what" to do with the fact that PCR has little to no interest in NCC?

You either have enough people to participate properly, or you don't. 

Tacking the totality of the typical ills of CAP on the wall as some conspiracy to kill NCC doesn't work.

It's not a wacky conspiracy theory if they're actually out to get you.

Correlation does not imply causation, which is pretty much where you are with this.

Quote from: Ron1319 on November 21, 2013, 02:00:40 AM
As for having enough people, we had to cut 3 cadets from drill team last year because we had 17 good cadets and could only take 14 to NCC.  They were invited to continue to practice, to fill in for anyone missing from practice during innovative, to continue to play volleyball with the team, and to be a part of the team "next year." 

As for PCR not really having any interest, PCR has recently always been a top contender in the CG comp at NCC. 

There seems to be a lack of understanding of the fact that NCC has been the highest level of competition.  We're dealing with experienced cadet officers who understand the bigger picture.  We can't fool them into thinking that a region competition has the same weight, value or motivation as NCC.  If we were in a region with many competitive teams, then region competition would be more meaningful, but we are not.

How's NCC the highest competition when no one is "competing" in most states?  That's one of the Great Fallacies^® here.

Many wings have trouble getting enough teams interested to hand out all three medals, let alone any insinuation that it is the "highest competition".

This is like saying the "of the year awards" mean something, when in most cases it's "the one guy who was nominated".

It's an annual "band camp of those who care", nothing more nothing less.  It hasn't been anything close to "highest competition" for at least a decade.
You yourself have indicated here that one of the biggest wings / regions in CAP can barely field one team.  You're not bringing the best of anything because
most of the people in the region aren't even interested.

Deleted

Quote from: Ron1319 on November 21, 2013, 02:07:42 AMI would like to point out that the title of the thread is "No more NCC."

How many other thread titles are ambiguous or otherwise don't tell the whole story?

Don't judge a book by it's cover.
At least read the foreword. ;)

Quote from: Ron1319 on November 21, 2013, 02:07:42 AM

Quote from: Bluelakes 13 on November 20, 2013, 06:18:32 PM

CORRECT!  The paragraph quoted at the beginning from Gen Carr also has "I strongly encourage Wing and Region Level competition to continue during this pause in 2014."

I would like to point out that the title of the thread is "No more NCC."

Right. Which means in 2014, there will not be a National Cadet Competition. Nothing prohibiting Cadet Competitions from occurring at Region, Wing & Group levels, and in fact continuing competition at these levels is encouraged.

Just because you can (potentially) wind up at the National Cadet Competition does not mean that the Group-level competition is called "The Group V CA Wing National Cadet Competition"

Quote from: Ron1319 on November 19, 2013, 10:18:04 PM
Because of seniors like you who have no understanding of how important a part of the cadet program it is.

As a former Mitchell cadet, I can tell you that I agree with Eclipse, and Nin, and everyone else that you say doesn't "get it." Cadet Competition is great, but NCC being paused for a year or two or more shouldn't stop you from competing in any way. If it does, then you are missing the whole point of the competition. Think of it this way, just because there aren't Olympic Summer Games this year, doesn't mean that there aren't still Olympians competing and preparing for the 2016 games.

Quote from: NIN on November 20, 2013, 02:17:49 AM

Quote from: Ron1319 on November 19, 2013, 09:30:37 PM
You appear to not understand how big Pacific Coast Region is.

You're right. I had no idea.   All the time I spent in CAP since 1981 (minus the 4 years I was "retired"), I never bothered to look at anything west of the Mississippi.

I understand Pacific Region is large. No kidding.  Not a news flash.  Thanks a lot Hawaii & Alaska for blowing the curve on "distance" for the rest of us (wait.. wait.. lets wait for the TX Wing guys to weigh in on their ONE STATE...)

You mean like how it's a shorter distance for people in El Paso to get to the Pacific Ocean than it is to get to Louisiana? Or maybe how almost all of the cadets in Group 1 (West Texas) are encouraged to go to encampments in New Mexico, Oklahoma, and Kansas because they're closer than the one in Texas? Yeah, Pacific Region definitely has a monopoly on size.

Quote from: NIN on November 21, 2013, 01:27:52 PMJust because you can (potentially) wind up at the National Cadet Competition does not mean that the Group-level competition is called "The Group V CA Wing National Cadet Competition"

It needs to be made clear to anyone participating that there's no NCC and no path there until further notice.

I know for a fact that a fair number of cadets competing have the "odds are in my favor" attitude about NCC - which is clearly the
case in PCR.  In other words, when there aren't even enough teams to even put a local comp on, "my odds on a free trip somewhere are pretty good,
even if we aren't really a national caliber team."

If you think NCC is a motivator, watch it become a quit-factor fast when cadets spend time and money thinking there is still an NCC and
they find out there isn't one. 

Quote from: jeders on November 21, 2013, 02:29:18 PM
You mean like how it's a shorter distance for people in El Paso to get to the Pacific Ocean than it is to get to Louisiana? Or maybe how almost all of the cadets in Group 1 (West Texas) are encouraged to go to encampments in New Mexico, Oklahoma, and Kansas because they're closer than the one in Texas? Yeah, Pacific Region definitely has a monopoly on size.

TL;DR: "Don't mess with Texas"

Quote from: jeders on November 21, 2013, 02:29:18 PM
You mean like how it's a shorter distance for people in El Paso to get to the Pacific Ocean than it is to get to Louisiana?

If you are in Johnson City, Tennesee, you're closer to Canada than you are to Memphis.

Quote from: jeders on November 21, 2013, 02:29:18 PM

Quote from: Ron1319 on November 19, 2013, 10:18:04 PM
Because of seniors like you who have no understanding of how important a part of the cadet program it is.

As a former Mitchell cadet, I can tell you that I agree with Eclipse, and Nin, and everyone else that you say doesn't "get it." Cadet Competition is great, but NCC being paused for a year or two or more shouldn't stop you from competing in any way. If it does, then you are missing the whole point of the competition. Think of it this way, just because there aren't Olympic Summer Games this year, doesn't mean that there aren't still Olympians competing and preparing for the 2016 games.

Quote from: NIN on November 20, 2013, 02:17:49 AM

Quote from: Ron1319 on November 19, 2013, 09:30:37 PM
You appear to not understand how big Pacific Coast Region is.

You're right. I had no idea.   All the time I spent in CAP since 1981 (minus the 4 years I was "retired"), I never bothered to look at anything west of the Mississippi.

I understand Pacific Region is large. No kidding.  Not a news flash.  Thanks a lot Hawaii & Alaska for blowing the curve on "distance" for the rest of us (wait.. wait.. lets wait for the TX Wing guys to weigh in on their ONE STATE...)

You mean like how it's a shorter distance for people in El Paso to get to the Pacific Ocean than it is to get to Louisiana? Or maybe how almost all of the cadets in Group 1 (West Texas) are encouraged to go to encampments in New Mexico, Oklahoma, and Kansas because they're closer than the one in Texas? Yeah, Pacific Region definitely has a monopoly on size.

We have a great time with the cadets and seniors from TX-802, Sheldon Composite Squadron, from Houston every year at the Illinois Wing Summer Encampment. I'm happy to have them as long as they want to travel.

I sort of feel like my Spaatz doesn't matter now because I never put more than two thoughts toward NCC. Ever.

That's sad to learn.

Quote from: Nathan on November 24, 2013, 02:18:04 PM
I sort of feel like my Spaatz doesn't matter now because I never put more than two thoughts toward NCC. Ever.

That's sad to learn.

Its OK, you can redeem yourself with a short trip to Pennsylvania or Wisconsin..

I can see some people being disappointed because the national competition was put on hold, but the fact that the group, wing and region competitions can still proceed is still pretty good. I mean, if I was a cadet and part of a drill team, I would be very proud to make it to the wing competition and even more so if my team won and made it to region.

The problem I see, as has been described in previous posts, is that some of the competitions leading to NCC are either nonexistent or have poor participation or are not challenging enough, leading some cadets and senior members to believe that if they put a team together they're almost guarantee to make it to the region and national competitions. That's not what NCC is all about.

Furthermore, while NCC is a great cadet activity, it's not the only or even the most important cadet activity. Only a small fraction of the cadet corps get to participate, and only those who were challenged through the group, wing and region competitions can truly say that they are part of the top cadets in CAP. If it's really so easy to make it to national because of poor competition throughout the different levels, then where's the accomplishment of making it to NCC or even winning it?

If you really want to compete, a group, wing and region competition should provide enough challenge to make it worthwhile. And even provide preparation for a possible NCC in the future.

Quote from: ol'fido on November 21, 2013, 11:36:01 PM

Quote from: jeders on November 21, 2013, 02:29:18 PM

Quote from: Ron1319 on November 19, 2013, 10:18:04 PM
Because of seniors like you who have no understanding of how important a part of the cadet program it is.

As a former Mitchell cadet, I can tell you that I agree with Eclipse, and Nin, and everyone else that you say doesn't "get it." Cadet Competition is great, but NCC being paused for a year or two or more shouldn't stop you from competing in any way. If it does, then you are missing the whole point of the competition. Think of it this way, just because there aren't Olympic Summer Games this year, doesn't mean that there aren't still Olympians competing and preparing for the 2016 games.

Quote from: NIN on November 20, 2013, 02:17:49 AM

Quote from: Ron1319 on November 19, 2013, 09:30:37 PM
You appear to not understand how big Pacific Coast Region is.

You're right. I had no idea.   All the time I spent in CAP since 1981 (minus the 4 years I was "retired"), I never bothered to look at anything west of the Mississippi.

I understand Pacific Region is large. No kidding.  Not a news flash.  Thanks a lot Hawaii & Alaska for blowing the curve on "distance" for the rest of us (wait.. wait.. lets wait for the TX Wing guys to weigh in on their ONE STATE...)

You mean like how it's a shorter distance for people in El Paso to get to the Pacific Ocean than it is to get to Louisiana? Or maybe how almost all of the cadets in Group 1 (West Texas) are encouraged to go to encampments in New Mexico, Oklahoma, and Kansas because they're closer than the one in Texas? Yeah, Pacific Region definitely has a monopoly on size.

We have a great time with the cadets and seniors from TX-802, Sheldon Composite Squadron, from Houston every year at the Illinois Wing Summer Encampment. I'm happy to have them as long as they want to travel.

Why do they go all the way up there? They're one of our neighbors.

Ask them. ;)

In many instances, timing is everything.

They've been doing that for years and years. One of their guys was the first sergeant during my basic encampment in 2006. I seem to remember our flight sergeant inserting some, ehem, "interesting" lyrics into a jodie in his honor...

http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/CAP_Vector__JanuaryMarch_2014_029373D619EB6.pdf (http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/CAP_Vector__JanuaryMarch_2014_029373D619EB6.pdf)

National Cadet Competition: As announced earlier, NCC is taking a strategic pause for 2014 and a task
force will soon begin discussions on how to involve more cadets, become more squadron-friendly, and
become less expensive for the participants and CAP units alike. Regions and wings are encouraged to
continue hosting competitions at their echelons in 2014. A redesigned national-level competition will return
in 2015.