21st Century CAP Uniform question

[Fr BED]

Kia Ora from Down Under

Having been asked a question by a cadet in the NZ Air Training Corps (the ATC similar to CAP) about CAPC uniforms, I started surfing and ended up in this site.  Found the info needed, but now I am personally curious. 

Before enlisting in the USAF after HS graduation in June 1961, I managed to do two years as a cadet and get my CP ribbon and certificate, thus enlisting directly in as an A3C rather than AB.  So I am some what out of touch with the current CAP & USAF uniforms even tho I have collected insignia since 1948.

Have noticed some discussion an what is called a Tony Pintado (spelling ?) uniform.  And the word corporate mentioned with it.  Nothing like the unifrom designations o mid last century when we had
Class A-1 Blue/Khaki Blouses
Class A-2 Blue/Khaki Eisenhower jackets
Class B    Long Sleeved Blue wool shirts (tie tucked between 2 & 3 buttons)
Class C    Long Sleeved Khaki chino shirts (tie as above in B)
Then the infamous Khaki shade 1505s w/bush jacket in some srs cases.

Corporate uniforms, at least here, usually refers to big companies like bank staff, hotels, and so on for staff dealing with public.  Usually a solid color blazer, company tie, white shirt, lighter colored trousers.

Question 1:  Who is this Pintado chap?  Possibly a famous CAP "legend"?  Or even  successor to the CAP Nat'l Cmdr I had, Gen Stephen McELROY? 

Is it named after him for some reason?  For instance, we were permited to wear the USAF blue and khaki Ike Jackets, descended from the USA & USAAF OD & Khaki short jackets named after General of the Army D D (Ike) EISENHOWER who liked the British WWII battle dress short jacket. 

Question 2:  If the USAFAux/CAP doing away with the military uniform and going to what I know as corporate, does this mean turning the clock back to 01 Dec 1941?  Those of you who have done CAPC Course #1 to get your Blue Training Ribbon will have done the history of CAP.  When first organized Dec 1941, it was under the Office of Civil Defense and tho had an overseas type CD hat, wore single brested coat with the CD blue disk, white triangle patch & had the red CD modified with the red three bladed propeller, worn on the left shoulder.  Beneath it was a straight tab with the eleven (11) titles ranging from FLIGHT LEADER thru to NATIONAL H.Q. STAFF,  A mini version patch worn o the left side of the cap at front.  Pilots, most WWI aviators at the start, wore the flying eagle in silver holding on the a metal/enamel version of the disk w/prop.

The Pintado appears to be some sort of throw back to those days.  Apparently, no being well received (understandable).

But, in my day, also had grieping & winging (complaining).  It was bad enough that they had abolished the all silver prop & wings lapel/collar badges when changed from USAAF Pinks & Greens to USAF blues but then tried taking away the WWII vets Combat SSI worn on the right shoulder of CAP uniforms and for older CAP WWII vets, the the Active Duty Unit cuff patches (Coastal, Liaison, Forestry Patrols, Courier service plus specialties Radio, Photography & Music).  Taking away SSi earned in the numbered Air Forces (1-15 & 20) as well as Army & Marine Divs was too much and many a vet told Wing and up where theycould stick that order  :clap:!

Any way, if some one could satisfy my curiosity about today's 21st century CAP to some one from the "mid"20th century, it would be most most appreciated.  Many thanks.

God bless

Rev Fr B E DORSEY DD CSM MS OCC
CAPC Camden (NJ) Composite Sqdn 1959-61 (Former C/TSGT)
Ex-Pat NJ Garden Stater Down in Pakuranga New Zealand
bedorsey@yahoo.com or frbed@catholic.org

[Eclipse]

There's no move to do away with the military style uniforms.  We have two styles - the military requires you adhere fully to a modified version of the USAF weight and grooming standards, the older-style corporates don't at all, the newer ones (CSU) require hair and beard adherance but not weight.

Anthony Pineda was the most recent former National Commander, he is generally referred lovingly as "He Who Shall Remain Nameless" (HWSRN) in reference to his being demoted and terminated from membership for various issues.  The uniform adopted during his tenure was for a while referred to as the "TPU" in a mostly derogatory fashion.

Its official name is the "Corporate Service Uniform" (CSU).

There's a lot of detail on the state of our uniforms (and plenty of wailing and gnashing of teeth as well) and the issues with HWSRN if you spend some time on older threads.

[NCRblues]

I guess by demoted you mean stripped of all rank and kick out of the national commander's position...

I apologize for this post; my feelings got the best of me. The pineda times directly affected me, and on here as well as elsewhere in cap, pineda and the horrible things that occurred during the time, are sort of just passed over. Yet cap is still feeling the repercussions of his time in office. So I will try not to let my personal feelings run away again.

[Pylon]

The "corporate" style uniforms do not mean business suits and the like.  There are basically two side-by-side lines of CAP uniforms.  For every Air Force-style uniform we have (service dress blues, BDUs, flight suit, etc), we also have a CAP-distinctive uniform that is its equivalent.

So for example, the Air Force style field uniform for CAP is the woodland camoflage BDU's.  The CAP distinctive uniform equivalent (or "corporate" uniform) is solid dark blue BDUs.  Basically the same garment with the same cut, but in solid blue.  The Air Force requires certain height-weight and grooming standards be met by CAP members who wear the Air Force-style uniforms.  To allow members who do not meet those standards to still have a uniform, the CAP distinctive ones were created. 

There's also a solid blue flight suit, a blazer combo (probably the closest to the business attire you were thinking of), the aforementioned CSU/TPU (Tony Pineda Uniform), and others.  Pretty much any active senior member can choose to wear the corporate uniforms;  but for those who don't meet the AF-specific requirements to wear the AF-style uniforms, the corporates are their only choices.  That's why there's a full closet of them.

As for Tony Pineda, he was a former national commander who created one of these particular uniforms (the CSU/TPU mentioned, which is a double-breasted and slightly modified version of the current Air Force service jacket).  He did not, however, create the concept of CAP-distinctive uniforms.  Those have evolved and emerged gradually over the past two decades or so.  Pineda's name probably also comes up a lot because he was removed from office and CAP over a highly-public and rather embarrassing (to CAP) Air Force test integrity issue and stripped of his rank in the process of being booted out the door.

Oh, and welcome to CAPTalk!   

[Fr BED]

Greetings again from rather wet Pakuranga NZ

To those kind gentlemen who have kindly cleared up my questions, I thank you very much.  As mentioned, being some what out of touch for about half a century, lost tract of updates.  Followed some details when USAF gave up the 4 button blouses in mid 1990s under Gen McPeak who wanted silver airline/naval cuff rings instead of metal on shoulder eapulettes.  Last I heard was trial on two new style "coats", one based on USAAS WWI choker collar (Billy Mitchel) and one based on USAAF WWII belted (Hap Arnold).  AFGCM dropped and backed, USAF EM collars gone then back.....  For collectors-driving us mad keeping up.

If any one into CAP/CAPC insignia collecting or interest, is it possible to make contact?  In my library here, have CAP Handbook 1944 Edition (50c then) Collector's catalog 1942-85, CAP Uniformd & Insignia 1952-61+ spcl editions of 1943 & 1944 NGM with CAP included.  Happy to share info.

Again, many thanks to you all for help.  Most interesting, especially about the variety of uniforms, the TP one and, about HWSRN.

Most appreciated.

God bless

Fr Bruce DORSEY+ NJ Downunder
CAPC 1959-1961 etc

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Kia Ora to you too, Father!

One of my goals is to one day visit New Zealand.  The Royal New Zealand Air Force to me is "the little air force that could."  They're small, but they're good.

I met General Pineda years ago before all this hit the fan.  I had no idea he was up to what he turned out to be.

I've looked at the NZ ATC site several times.  It looks like you have some very squared-away young people.

I also noticed that your officers' uniforms seem to have no distinction from regular RNZAF uniforms other than shoulder flash; i.e., "New Zealand Cadet Corps" instead of just "New Zealand."  No way would the USAF allow that here, wearing a minimal-alteration USAF uniform with "Civil Air Patrol" shoulder flashes.

But I'm betting the NZ ATC has better relations with the RNZAF than we do with the USAF.

I've also noticed that apparently the RNZAF puts no weight restrictions on NZ ATC personnel:

http://cadetforces.mil.nz/image-gallery/juniorleadersohakeaapril20/cdt-hall-receiving-top-cadet-award.html

The USCG doesn't for its Auxiliary either, but it's something we have to live with.

[Fr BED]

Attn:  Cyborg

NZ ATC info:  So as I am not going "OFF TOPIC" I (think that the term?) and clog up space and upset moderator(s), please contact me on the following private email address I have with the RCs.

Not sure how to get a personal msg to you via here, if possible.  Still learning!

My apologies to CAP Talk for the lack of knowledge using this system correctly.

Happy to talk about the NZ Cadet Forces & NZ with you from there.

frbed@catholic.org

Regards & blessings

Fr Bruce+
CAPC Camden (NJ) Compsite Sqdn 1959-61 (Former C/Tsgt)

[arajca]

OT:
FrBed, if you click on the user name, it will pull up their profile. Under their picture (if any) is a link to send the member a PM.

:: YANK ::

back to the topic...

As you may have seen, uniforms are a contentious issue on CAPTalk. Uniforms can lead to some...highly spirited exchanges of opinion.