Sources for approved ABU winter outerwear

[Spam]

Not trying to perpetuate a debate on the regs here. In the spirit of trying to help find solutions, I'm offering sources for consideration (not an owner or sponsor here). I have used SG with satisfaction, though, for ammo, gear, and clothing:

https://www.sportsmansguide.com/product/index/us-military-surplus-gore-tex-waterproof-apecs-parka-shell-new?a=2216241&szc=2XL&clrc=09H&pm2d=CSE-SPG-15-PLA&utm_medium=PLA&utm_medium=cpc&utm_source=Google&utm_source=google&utm_campaign=CI&utm_campaign=15571193985&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIkqTW--Os9QIVAoKGCh1RWQDWEAQYASABEgLUfvD_BwE

also, there are various used and new options elsewhere:
https://www.amazon.com/FORCE-GORETEX-PURPOSE-ENVIRONMENTAL-CAMOUFLAGE/dp/B00KAFOKJC


A suggestion: a couple of units that I've commanded have had a long standing practice of investing in a small stock of (then-approved) field jackets, which were then issued to needy cadets on cold meeting nights and before missions. Doing the same by getting a range of appropriately sized ABU parkas is a smart cost saving idea within the budget of many units.

Another suggestion: many members never think about long johns, but inexpensive thermal underwear and proper layering can really keep one toasty warm with minimal investment, under all approved uniform combos.

R/s
Spam

[Shuman 14]

I would not want to waste squadron money buying ABU field jackets, ABU Gortexes and foliage green fleeces when we all know that these uniforms will be gone in short order.

The thermal underwear is the best idea until OCP pattern uniforms and outwear is approved.

[TheSkyHornet]

I would not want to waste squadron money buying ABU field jackets, ABU Gortexes and foliage green fleeces when we all know that these uniforms will be gone in short order.

The thermal underwear is the best idea until OCP pattern uniforms and outwear is approved.

Then direct your member corps to go purchase them at their discretion.

But these are the approved and available item options. If someone chooses not to have them, they're SOL when it comes to getting the fridgies.

[Eclipse]

Thermals work if you're going to be outside all day, but if you're just going between buildings or
activities at something like an encampment they become a hassle, then you have cadets cooking or
who have to be constantly changing.

[Shuman 14]

The Simple answer is to ask the USAF to approve OCPs for CAP as an authorized USAF-style Uniform.

Allow all ABU pattern uniforms to be worn "until unserviceable" (i.e. to faded, to worn, to many holes to present a professional appearance) so those that have them and continue to wear them and get their moneys worth out of them.

This will alleviate some of our problems so if units want to go buy coyote brown fleece jackets and OCP Gortexes to have on hand as they can and the ABU stuff can be used by those that have it.

This problem is only going to get worse as time goes on and supplies dry up.   

[Shuman 14]

Thermals work if you're going to be outside all day, but if you're just going between buildings or
activities at something like an encampment they become a hassle, then you have cadets cooking or
who have to be constantly changing.

I concur, I had not thought of that.

Old field jacket liners fit under BBDU, ABU and OCP tops and this would be the "quick change" option instead of full thermal long-johns.

[Shuman 14]

Then direct your member corps to go purchase them at their discretion. But these are the approved and available item options.

There is nothing discrete about telling a parent (or a Senior Member for that matter) to go spend between $75-110.00 (USC) on a coat (without liner) that is very likely to be obsolete in less than a year.

And for how much longer? (Both available and approved).

[SarDragon]

Then direct your member corps to go purchase them at their discretion. But these are the approved and available item options.

There is nothing discrete about telling a parent (or a Senior Member for that matter) to go spend between $75-110.00 (USC) on a coat (without liner) that is very likely to be obsolete in less than a year.

And for how much longer? (Both available and approved).

Sadly, until they aren't.

I have seen many uniform changes since I joined, and the process hasn't changed much in all that time. USAF decides to change their uniform, they tell CAP when they can change theirs, there's a transition period, and then everyone is in the new uniform. The problem now is that the changes have come more frequently.

When we went from OGs to the BDUs, the overseas squadrons were the first to wear them, early, because they were unable to procure OGs once the AF finished their transition. This was in the '87-'89 time frame. The stateside units still had convenient sources, since there were still other services wearing the OGs.

There's no easy answer.

[heliodoc]

No easy answer?

[SarDragon]

No easy answer?

Well, I don't have one. Do you?

[heliodoc]

Probably not a favorable one and I m ready for alllll sorts of blowback

Maybe like the uniform CAWG had to wear under CA OES?  What happened to that?  Somebody at CAP NHQ go sideways at Agency request when we are primarily a SUPPORTING agency??  Seems like there was some logic over there at CA OES that apparently CAP couldn't get past, eh?

I mean, we're this "premier" SAR group right?  Tac pants, BDU pants, and Long Sleeve orange shirts. orange bucket hats like State Dept of Transportation types wear or some type civilian outdoor clothing or yeah OK the BBDU....the uni normally for first responders

All the talk about the USAF and what uniform "they want us in."  I can almost bet the relief Big AF would have when some of our H/W challenged CAP personnel would shed

How many TRUE talks have occurred about our "Corporateness" and new civilian uniforms have truly occurred on mine and everyone else's $60-75 USD a year?  Surely, with the NUC and the 154 page CAPR 39-1, could be solved by CAP Corporate getting everyone in to one prescribed Civilian CAP uniform

Since CAP claims "Corporate" and seems to want to depart from the USAF except for some of the exciting missions...what would it really hurt CAP in prescribed civilian wear or everyone just can get in BBDUs and have their boonie hats to boot..

I mean it's 2022...some things might need to change in 80 yrs because CAP can't keep up with the DoD contract textile mills or even find a way to tag on real textile with quality controls...

Voila...problems solved

As some of today's social media-ites say..."Fight Me!!"  LOLOLOL

[Shuman 14]

Heliodoc,

while I would have no issue having a Corporate only, ES duty, working/field uniform, that's not going to work for the Cadet Program.

CAP is the USAF Auxiliary, there has to be a visible tie to the USAF especially in the Cadet Program. It's not like the High School JROTC get to change their uniforms because it doesn't work for everyone.

If the USAF puts JROTC cadet in Blues and OCPS then CAP cadets should be too.

Are AF-JROTC still wearing ABUs? I don't know, but I suspect if they are, they're in the middle of a transition themselves too.

Seniors are a different matter. Plenty of suggestions for a replacement for Blues, we can argue that until cows come home.

How about we go back to our CAP roots... lets adopt the Army's AGSU, switch out the brown epaulets for red epaulets, use pin-on ranks, ditch the "U.S." upper lapel pins and start using "C.A.P." lapel pins again, create a tri-blade propeller Branch insignia (the triangle thingy) for the lower lapels instead of the Winged Propeller of Army Aviation, switch our nametag from grey to red to match the epaulets, replace the antique finished Army buttons with silver CAP buttons, and use all the same hat badges as now. NCOs continue to use the blue/silver rank insignia. Use the USAF belt instead of the Army tan one.

Then we will have one uniform for all.

Pipedream of course.

[SarDragon]

Well, that's neither simple nor easy. I suggest that you first look at my other posts on "economy of scale". It is a major factor when discussing new uniforms.

Here are some threads/posts with relevant discussion:
http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=23607
http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=25039.msg434416#msg434416
http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=22891.msg412195#msg412195

Several of my posts have additional links with further discussion.

More simply put - any new uniform we come up with that isn't an existing AF/military uniform is going to be expensive. Because of the small quantities, most manufacturers won't even consider tooling up, especially when presented with a detailed specification.

This is reality, unpleasant as it is.

[Shuman 14]

Well, that's neither simple nor easy. I suggest that you first look at my other posts on "economy of scale". It is a major factor when discussing new uniforms.

Here are some threads/posts with relevant discussion:
http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=23607
http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=25039.msg434416#msg434416
http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=22891.msg412195#msg412195

Several of my posts have additional links with further discussion.

More simply put - any new uniform we come up with that isn't an existing AF/military uniform is going to be expensive. Because of the small quantities, most manufacturers won't even consider tooling up, especially when presented with a detailed specification.

This is reality, unpleasant as it is.

Then we all need to decide on an already existing uniform... be it USAF, another Branch of the military, police department, fire department, EMS agency, corrections department, etcetera... and go with that.

Again, put the Cadets in existing USAF Blues and OCPS and put the REST of us in one dress/service uniform, one flight uniform, one field uniform and keep the current corporate working uniform.

That or plead with the USAF to lift the restrictions on weight/grooming for wearing the USAF style uniforms.

I look at it this way, AF-JROTC instructors, all of who are Retired USAF personnel, wear their actual USAF uniform and rank when conducting these duties. I've seen some of these instructors pushing maximum density and was afraid that with a strong inhale silver buttons would be flying across the gym. The USAF says/does nothing to them.

I have also seen State Defense Force Airwings, where the uniform is again the USAF's but with the "U.S." cut-outs and/or discs replaced with State letters (i.e. "T.X.". "C.A.", etc.) and a State Seal added to the hat badge over the Eagle's head where the thirteen stars are on the USAF one and a red nametag are the only differences, pushing the same maximum density. The USAF says/does nothing to them.

The USAF itself doesn't make it's own members that can't meet height/weight/bodyfat standard wear a different uniform, it gives them a year to met standards or processes them for separation... but they continue to wear the USAF uniform.

So why is CAP held to stronger standards than everyone else?

[Spam]

<Reiterate purpose of starting the thread>

Not trying to push a narrative or ignite uniform fetish discussion.

Simply trying to provide sources for currently approved, climate-necessary uniforms.

#stayontarget

V/r
Spam

[TheSkyHornet]

Then direct your member corps to go purchase them at their discretion. But these are the approved and available item options.

There is nothing discrete about telling a parent (or a Senior Member for that matter) to go spend between $75-110.00 (USC) on a coat (without liner) that is very likely to be obsolete in less than a year.

And for how much longer? (Both available and approved).

I absolutely agree with this entirely. I think the frustration for all of us comes from:

• The fact that uniform items are increasingly expensive for a program marketed to all economic communities
• The fact that uniform items are increasingly unavailable despite their actual (or perceived) mandate
• The fact that nobody wants to be told that can't wear x or can't participate because they don't have a particular article to wear
• That fact that uniform standards are often burdensome (again, whether actually or perceived) for the members corps

But we don't dictate the regulations at the squadron level. It's a "shut up and follow the rules" situation. We can do our best to help provide uniform items and set appropriate uniform designations for activities that we control. But it doesn't make the above issues disappear.

I have seen many uniform changes since I joined, and the process hasn't changed much in all that time. USAF decides to change their uniform, they tell CAP when they can change theirs, there's a transition period, and then everyone is in the new uniform. The problem now is that the changes have come more frequently.

I don't know that the only problem here is that uniforms change more frequently.

I think there is an inherent issue in the time it takes for us to match/adopt that uniform, if we're going to continue to wear the Air Force-style based on the current standard working uniform of USAF.

I get that there is a National Uniform Board, and conversations with the Air Force...yadda yadda. I don't really have a grasp of how it all works. I don't understand where the real dialogue starts and whether or not it's actually true that the Air Force says we can't do (whatever). Did they actually say that? Was that a board recommendation/decision. I honestly have no idea.

From the ground level here, we just don't understand it at the bottom of the food chain. We don't understand why it's treated as if there is no supply of OCPs if CAP just started wearing the uniform, or why it's really this massive burden on the member corps to transition if members are voluntarily acquiring/purchasing uniform items over the next z-number of years.

<Reiterate purpose of starting the thread>

Not trying to push a narrative or ignite uniform fetish discussion.

Simply trying to provide sources for currently approved, climate-necessary uniforms.

#stayontarget

I probably should have read the entire thread before clicking Reply. Rookie mistake.

I actually shared this with some of my folks, and the feedback was greatly appreciative.

The biggest gripe is the coloration and how all of the newly available items are mismatched from the old stuff we'd get from the BX.

[Shuman 14]

Because of the small quantities

Total Manpower US Armed Forces (Using Google searches)

US Army      481,000 AC     274,500 RC     336,000 NG
USAF           350,000 AC     69,000 RC       110,000 NG
US Navy      342,000 AC     59,000 RC
USMC          182,000 AC     38,500 RC
USCG           44,000 AC       7,000 RC         26,000 Auxiliary
USSF            6,500 AC
CAP             54,000 (Senior and Cadets)

For Comparison

Rhode Island State Police     228 Troopers
California State Police           7,600 Officers

I would submit to you that CAP doesn't buy in small quantities, we are bigger (at least in electrons) than two active components and nearly all the State Police Forces.

I picked California and Rhode Island specifically as they have some rather specific uniforms requirements (beyond a navy blue shirt and pants) and neither seems to have trouble finding a supplier to make them.

[jeders]

<Reiterate purpose of starting the thread>

Not trying to push a narrative or ignite uniform fetish discussion.

Simply trying to provide sources for currently approved, climate-necessary uniforms.

If you don't mind used, eBay is still a source for reasonably priced ABU cold weather gear https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2380057.m570.l1313&_nkw=abu+parka&_sacat=0

Of course, you can also contact the Lackland Composite Squadron, swrtx007@gmail.com, I believe they still have a rather large stock of ABU cold weather gear.

#stayontarget

Please

[NovemberWhiskey]

If you don't mind used, eBay is still a source for reasonably priced ABU cold weather gear

Yup; I got all my ABU outerwear on eBay, it was all new-with-tags and not unreasonably priced.

[Capt Thompson]

Then we all need to decide on an already existing uniform... be it USAF, another Branch of the military, police department, fire department, EMS agency, corrections department, etcetera... and go with that.

That's the thing sir, we all don't get to decide, so all of this continued discussion on changing to one uniform or another is moot until Ma Blue says otherwise.

In the meantime, any source of approved outerwear is greatly appreciated.