Bring back the Royal Blue Flight suit

[dogboy]

In the Pacific Region, according to the supplement to CAPR 60-1, the nomex flight suit is the "approved" uniform for flight activities in the region.

However, neither the sage  or dark blue flight suits in CAPR 39-1 provide visibility for searchers. Day-glo or at least Royal Blue provide that visibility. In the Pacific Region, as the recent Steve Fossett search shows,  we fly over some of the most rugged and deserted landscapes in America. If you were downed, wouldn't you want that slight margin of visibility that a bright colored flight suit would provide over sage or dark blue?

I assume that dark blue replaced Royal Blue because it was more "professional" in appearance. IMHO, we actually look more professional when we wear outfits suited to our missions. If we wear nomex that we have to pay for ourselves, shouldn't we have a suit that might actually save our life?

[Hawk200]

Blue is pretty much blue, regardless of shade, and the shades we wear aren't common in nature. If it's really an issue, include an orange vest in the survival kits. If the crew isn't in any condition to put them on, the color of their flightsuit probably isn't going make any difference.

I wear the green flightsuit, but if there was a vote, I would definitely vote against the Royal blue suit. It has just never looked right to me.

And we've had other people that think that we should replace all our field uniforms for visibility purposes. If you're wearing an orange vest like you should, it shouldn't be an issue.

[BillB]

Royal blue or dark blue or sage, from 1200 feet makes no difference unless in direct sunlight. And I've only seen one plane crash where the plane was in direct sunlight and not hidden by trees. You could be in an orange flight suit in the fall when tree leaves were changing color and not be seen.

[jeders]

Royal blue or dark blue or sage, from 1200 feet makes no difference unless in direct sunlight. And I've only seen one plane crash where the plane was in direct sunlight and not hidden by trees. You could be in an orange flight suit in the fall when tree leaves were changing color and not be seen.

Even in direct sunlight it won't necessarily help.

[mikeylikey]

Can't you just find something that color to stow with your gear, if you happened to go down??

[isuhawkeye]

With this logic we should go back to the blaze orange flight suit.

[pixelwonk]

With this logic we should go back to the blaze orange flight suit.

that's hot

[CFI_Ed]

With this logic we should go back to the blaze orange flight suit.

I've still got my old one

[JohnKachenmeister]

In the Pacific Region, according to the supplement to CAPR 60-1, the nomex flight suit is the "approved" uniform for flight activities in the region.

However, neither the sage  or dark blue flight suits in CAPR 39-1 provide visibility for searchers. Day-glo or at least Royal Blue provide that visibility. In the Pacific Region, as the recent Steve Fossett search shows,  we fly over some of the most rugged and deserted landscapes in America. If you were downed, wouldn't you want that slight margin of visibility that a bright colored flight suit would provide over sage or dark blue?

I assume that dark blue replaced Royal Blue because it was more "professional" in appearance. IMHO, we actually look more professional when we wear outfits suited to our missions. If we wear nomex that we have to pay for ourselves, shouldn't we have a suit that might actually save our life?

This is really dumb.

From 1000 feet everybody looks the same.  

If you go down you have smoke, flares, mirrors, and ground panels.  If they can't see you with all that, how is a light blue flight suit gonna help?

Discuss something rational.

[Smokey]

CAWG has authorized the blaze orange flightsuit.   A member of my squadron has one and it wears it everytime .

From CAWG 39-1 supplement:

Table 4-5 Line 1. (Added) Flight Suit. In the interest of safety, the orange NOMEX flight suit is authorized for wear in California as an alternative to the royal blue or dark blue flight suit. This garment will be worn with the same badges and devices prescribed for the AF-style flight suit.

[MIKE]

^ 

[O-Rex]

Space-mom says: "Don't leave home without a high-viz flightsuit and a survival radio."

[Hawk200]

CAWG has authorized the blaze orange flightsuit.   A member of my squadron has one and it wears it everytime .

From CAWG 39-1 supplement:

Table 4-5 Line 1. (Added) Flight Suit. In the interest of safety, the orange NOMEX flight suit is authorized for wear in California as an alternative to the royal blue or dark blue flight suit. This garment will be worn with the same badges and devices prescribed for the AF-style flight suit.

Sounds like something California would do. Do they still have the 11-1 out there too, or did someone kill that thing yet?

[SarDragon]

11-1?

[Flying Pig]

Like this.....minus the Jayhawk

[Hawk200]

11-1?

It was a manual that CAWG produced for "clarification" on policies, administrative practices, uniforms and safety. Problem with it was that the wing (or someone at the wing) was telling members that it superseded all the National pubs.

Ran into a guy out there wearing metal rank insignia on his BDU's (he was a senior). Mentioned it to him, and he told me that the allowance was in the CAWGM 11-1, and that it took precedence over CAPM 39-1. Don't know if it was in the manual or not, but I could never seem to get a hold of one of them. No one I ever knew seemed to have a copy. My commander had seen it, but didn't have a copy of her own.

[Psicorp]

Yet another example of why CA is a strange state 

[ddelaney103]

Are there any examples where CAP lost a crew because they were wearing sage or dk blue instead of royal blue or orange?

Heck, are there any examples where we lost a crew because they weren't wearing aramid fiber?

Safety is one of the twin prods we use to justify things in CAP (the other is "Cadet Protection").  If something is markedly safer and actually saves lives in practice, it should be mandatory.  Often we allow individualism in the name of safety, like boonies.

[SarDragon]

OK, now I grok the 11-1 reference. I just consulted my copy, and see nothing related to uniforms in it. The manual is titled "California Wing Administrative Procedures", available here, and is an amplification of NHQ paperwork procedures.

Uniform items are addressed in the CAWG supplement to CAPM 39-1.

DON'T SHOOT ME, I'M ONLY THE MESSENGER!

I have presented information, not opinions as to its correctness or validity. If you disagree, take your dogpile elsewhere.

[Hawk200]

OK, now I grok the 11-1 reference. I just consulted my copy, and see nothing related to uniforms in it. The manual is titled "California Wing Administrative Procedures", available here, and is an amplification of NHQ paperwork procedures.

Uniform items are addressed in the CAWG supplement to CAPM 39-1.

DON'T SHOOT ME, I'M ONLY THE MESSENGER!

I have presented information, not opinions as to its correctness or validity. If you disagree, take your dogpile elsewhere.

I've seen the current one, and it has been modified since I was last in Cal Wing. A few additions ago, it did have info on uniforms. At the time I questioned a fellow senior on his uniform, it apparently had a conflicting practice. The current one does not.

And just because it doesn't now, doesn't mean it didn't. Second, there's really no reason to get excited about it. Things change. I still think it's unnecessary to produce a "clarification" manual that draws all of its content from National pubs. The 11-1 doesn't seem to reference any pubs at all, just parrots them.

[Larry Mangum]

Several years ago during a SAREX an aircrew was required to actually guide the Ground Team to the actual PELT location versus just taking off as soon as the team was in the vicinity. The terrain was boggy with dense brush and trees, with only random areas that were not covered by canopy.   The Ground Team was successfully guided to within 50 feet of the PELT by the use of air to ground communications  and the use of a signal mirror to mark the teams position.

During the debrief the aircrew stated that one of the things that really helped besides the use of the signal mirror and radio, was the Blue BDU's worn by one of the Senior Members. 

Since that, I have been told several times by different aircrews that it is much easier to identify people on the ground when they are wearing blue or any other non naturally occurring color.

[isuhawkeye]

how about orange safety vests

[mikeylikey]

^  that works. 

[isuhawkeye]

P.S. they are  not rangers either "Gasp"

[mikeylikey]

Orange hardhats and vests are not a bad thing!

[Flying Pig]

Get something with a chin strap.  Cuz it aint gonna stay if you take a good fall.

[Larry Mangum]

Orange vests do help,  and should be worn, but along the northern states from Maine to Washington, they blend in quite well with the fall foliage.

[wingnut]

NASA requires Orange flight suits for the Astronaut's only during launch and landing, its a pressure suit with an elt device in the Parachute pack and a prc121 in the suit pocket.

The USAF use to require orange flight suits in the pre nomex days of the 50s and 60s, I think fat guys look like clowns in an Orange suit, Hence I shall never wear one. Now Smokey he would look like a circus midget in one

[Hawk200]

Has anyone ever submitted anything to the effect of adopting the garish lime green color vests for our operations?

I know the stuff can be almost retina burning, but it would certainly get the job done. And we all know that color is in no way natural.

[Dragoon]

Lime green would be a good idea - the pushback would be "they aren't as cheap as orange ones - our cadets can't afford them."

I've seen that argument trump common sense over and over again.

[bosshawk]

Grumpy: your report that CAWG allows the orange flight suit just made my day.  I wore one in the Army in Korea in 63-64 and loved it.  Always figured that I just might get found if I had to eject in that God-forsaken place.  I just might exercise my prerogative as a rebel and get one to wear in CA.

BTW: I concur with you folks who don't like the Royal Blue bag.  I do like the dark blue one.

[mikeylikey]

Grumpy: your report that CAWG allows the orange flight suit just made my day.  I wore one in the Army in Korea in 63-64 and loved it.  Always figured that I just might get found if I had to eject in that God-forsaken place.  I just might exercise my prerogative as a rebel and get one to wear in CA.

BTW: I concur with you folks who don't like the Royal Blue bag.  I do like the dark blue one.

So Colonel, are you a big fan of Kimchi??

[bosshawk]

Nope: could never get a fork full past my nose.  Couldn't do Nuc Mam, either when I was in VN.  Other than those sorts of things, I still couldn't find much in either country to cause me to want to go back.  Now, Germany was a different story!!!!!

I did go back to Korea in 96 for the retirement of the OV-1 Mohawks: still the same place, just more people and more traffic.

[O-Rex]

Bosshawk:

Did two tours  in the 80's as a T.O. with A/3rd MI (sitting, second from the left) never did get my fill of Kimchi or OV-1's.



I understand that 69-17001 (pictured) is now on display at the Humphreys main gate.  I only got to see orange flightsuits (with Indian Patch!) in training films.

[mikeylikey]

Nope: could never get a fork full past my nose.  Couldn't do Nuc Mam, either when I was in VN.  Other than those sorts of things, I still couldn't find much in either country to cause me to want to go back.  Now, Germany was a different story!!!!!

I did go back to Korea in 96 for the retirement of the OV-1 Mohawks: still the same place, just more people and more traffic.

Yes Germany was by-far the TASTIEST place I have ever been to!  Otherwise I did grow fond of Kimchi, and always look for it at those Korean restaurants outside most Army posts in the States now!  Korea was a very unique experience, some of my best suits were made by real tailors there.  I am trying to get back there......but with everything going on in the world, I am happy with my 1 year there.

[O-Rex]

some of my best suits were made by real tailors there. 

I couldn't believe it:

Suit custom tailor-made by Korean Tailor in the ROK: $120

Suit tailor-made by Korean Tailor in the US: $1050

My $75 dress-shirts say "made in Korea."  Back in the day, they would throw them in for free when you bought the suit.

You don't know what you have until it's gone....

[mikeylikey]

some of my best suits were made by real tailors there. 

I couldn't believe it:

Suit custom tailor-made by Korean Tailor in the ROK: $120

Suit tailor-made by Korean Tailor in the US: $1050

My $75 dress-shirts say "made in Korea."  Back in the day, they would throw them in for free when you bought the suit.

You don't know what you have until it's gone....

So true.  Korea is a good place to start on a military career.  Then again, Italy is not "all that bad" either!  I am pressing to get back to Korea to get a pair of Blues made up for when the Army nixes the Greens altogether!  Perhaps some R&R on my next vacation to the middle east will be a good time to head over to the ROK!

[MIKE]

Topic.

[mikeylikey]

Don't bring back the Royal Blue flight Suit. 

[bosshawk]

O-rex and mikelikey: Korea was not my favorite duty location, but I did enjoy the flying.  I, too, had uniforms and suits made there and they lasted forever.

When we started the Hawk unit, we decided on orange flight suits for pilots and TOs: we wanted to be noticed.  We were and took a lot of crap from the other Army aviators for it, but they remembered who we were.

Ah yes, days gone by(long gone by).

Mikey: Space A to Korea isn't too hard to get: not too many people want to travel from CONUS to the ROK.