Golf shirts winning in LA

[RiverAux]

This photo from a LA flight clinic featured on CAP News Online http://www.cap.gov/visitors/news/cap_news_online/index.cfm?fuseaction=display&nodeID=6192&newsID=3560&year=2007&month=9 seems to show that the golf shirt has gained a sizable lead over the AF flight suit in LA.  There are at least twice as many golf shirts as AF flight suits. 

I'd say that matches up pretty close with what I see around me as well. 

Does it mean anything on a galactic scale?  I don't know.  But, it certainly shows that in Wings where CAP members have a choice about what they fly in (not the case in some places), they want the golf shirt. 

[Larry Mangum]

In the pacific Region, per the region supplement to CAPR 60-1, the nomex flight suit is the "approved" uniform for flight activities in the region.

[Flying Pig]

It tells me CAP is trying to adopt civilian appeareance.  I think it looks sloppy.  Showing up on a mission wearing the polo shirt while working with other agencies is going to make us look silly.   

[Eclipse]

It tells me CAP is trying to adopt civilian appeareance.  I think it looks sloppy.  Showing up on a mission wearing the polo shirt while working with other agencies is going to make us look silly.   

No, its going to make you look like a lot of the other agencies - most PD/FD, the ARC, FEMA, and similar agencies have a golf shirt combo, especially for longer-term missions in "uncomfortable" environments.

I wouldn't take the photo as an indication of the "win" of the golf shirt, (as if it was a contest). Unless they were going to actually fly that day, the flight suit is an inappropriate uniform for a classroom environment.
They look sloppy and as you can see, at least one member still hasn't gotten the 3-yea old word on the proper insignia.

[Flying Pig]

I guess it depends on where you are.  Where I am, agencies dont wear polo shirts. 

[RiverAux]

every flight clinic I've ever heard about features flying as an integral part of the activities. 

[jb512]

It tells me CAP is trying to adopt civilian appeareance.  I think it looks sloppy.  Showing up on a mission wearing the polo shirt while working with other agencies is going to make us look silly.   

No, its going to make you look like a lot of the other agencies - most PD/FD, the ARC, FEMA, and similar agencies have a golf shirt combo, especially for longer-term missions in "uncomfortable" environments.

I wouldn't take the photo as an indication of the "win" of the golf shirt, (as if it was a contest). Unless they were going to actually fly that day, the flight suit is an inappropriate uniform for a classroom environment.
They look sloppy and as you can see, at least one member still hasn't gotten the 3-yea old word on the proper insignia.

I agree that the golf shirt for anything other than PT night looks too casual.  Things may be different in different areas, but most "working" personnel around here from the PD, SO, FD, EMS, etc., wear a duty uniform.  The only people I've seen in polo shirts are admin types who sit behind a desk all day.  I know that my SO doesn't authorize a polo for anything other than hands-on-training environments where a duty uniform would get easily damaged or dirty.

I would prefer that we look as professional as we can especially when working with other agencies and there's nothing wrong with a flight suit in a classroom.  We are a flying organization.

[Grumpy]

Tell that to the Ground Teams or the UDF teams.  Tell it to my composite squadron that doesn't have any pilots.  The only uniforms we wear are BDUs, Service Uniform and yes, the Golf shirt/gray slacks.

I've been wearing the blue suit for 48 years now and I like to be comfortable.  We meet on Camp Pendleton and the commanding general has put out the order that the Marines CAN NOT wear BDUs into town except straight to duty and home.  Therefore, out of respect for them and the fact that I don't eat until after the meeting, I wear the Golf Shirt combo.

If I'm going to a staff meeting at higher headquarters or on a visit, I'll wear the blue suit.  Also, regs state that if you are flying somewhere, say a conference, the Golf Shirt is authorized.

I'm getting old and, as my nick name implies, Grumpy but if I can be comfortable I'll take that anytime.

[RiverAux]

I suppose the reason I brought this up is to show that those who want to see AF-style uniforms dominate CAP life, the only way it is going to happen is through regulation.  Obviously, CAP members are voting with their pocketbook to switch to non-military uniforms when possible.   

So, those of us who believe in keeping up our historic traditions need to realize that conformity and persuasion aren't going to do it.

In fact, if we have to use the bogus "safety" argument that they're using in Pacific Region, to get people in flightsuits, that may be just what we have to do. 

[Eagle400]

In fact, if we have to use the bogus "safety" argument that they're using in Pacific Region, to get people in flightsuits, that may be just what we have to do.

I don't see what's bogus about it.  Which would you rather burn in, a nomex flight suit or polyester pants that melt on contact with fire?  Don't forget the cotton polo shirt, which will also burn.

I say flightsuits for aircrew and BDUs for mission base personnel, or no coverage.  Part of the problem with people overwhelmingly showing up in the polo shirt uniform is that they can still receive coverage when wearing it on CAP missions and activities.  I say "No more!" 

Note: flightsuits and BDUs would include the blue flight suit and BBDU for those who can't wear the AF uniforms.   

[jeders]

In fact, if we have to use the bogus "safety" argument that they're using in Pacific Region, to get people in flightsuits, that may be just what we have to do.

I don't see what's bogus about it.  Which would you rather burn in, a nomex flight suit or polyester pants that melt on contact with fire?  Don't forget the cotton polo shirt, which will also burn.

I say flightsuits for aircrew and BDUs for mission base personnel, or no coverage.  Part of the problem with people overwhelmingly showing up in the polo shirt uniform is that they can still receive coverage when wearing it on CAP missions and activities.  I say "No more!"   

That's dumb.

I hate the look of the polo shirt as much as the next guy, but saying no more coverage if you wear it is just gonna be shooting us in the foot. The fact is that that is one picture. If you went somewhere else, I'd bet that you would find the opposite to be true. There will always be individual places where one uniform is desired over the other. In my squadron it's almost impossible to get people into a service uniform instead of utility uniforms.

At a recent recruiting event, i requested that the other person, let's call him Lt Fuzzy, wear the aviator combo. He refused because he would rather wear the BBDUs than look for his aviator shirt. At my previous squadron, the only ones that wore the flight suit were the AD guys who just got off duty and were still in their actual AF flight suit. It just goes to show that there will always be people who want military style uniforms, and people who want civilian style uniforms, this is just an extension of that.

Now granted, I do think that when flying, only a flight suit, whether it's AF or corporate, should be allowed, and that's just for safety.

[Nomex Maximus]

Obvious problem with the polo shirt is that you don't know who you are talking to - not only does it not have the grade on the shirt but some of them don't even have a name. And face it, the polo shirt is "old people" clothing. If you like it, fine, but it does tend to look like something "old" people would wear. Nothing wrong with "old" people by the way... I just think almost anything other uniform would look better.

[SarDragon]

In fact, if we have to use the bogus "safety" argument that they're using in Pacific Region, to get people in flightsuits, that may be just what we have to do.

I don't see what's bogus about it.  Which would you rather burn in, a nomex flight suit or polyester pants that melt on contact with fire?  Don't forget the cotton polo shirt, which will also burn.

I say flightsuits for aircrew and BDUs for mission base personnel, or no coverage.  Part of the problem with people overwhelmingly showing up in the polo shirt uniform is that they can still receive coverage when wearing it on CAP missions and activities.  I say "No more!"   

Get real!

Do you own a CAP polo (golf) shirt? If not, then stop telling what it's made of. If you do, look at the tag again - It's 60% cotton, 40% polyester, so it's not the best thing to fly in. However, your reasoning about cotton is flawed.

Have you ever flown for a living in a Nomex required environment? When I did, the required clothing under the flight suit was cotton. That's right, cotton, because it will not burn as quickly as synthetics, and provides an extra layer of insulation. Do your own flame tests on samples of different fabrics and see which hold up the best/longest. Cotton wins.

Now let's talk about mission base. There are folks there who do mostly admin level work and require none of the "advantages" that flight suits or BDUs provide in their usual environments. The polo/golf shirt provides a comfortable utilitarian uniform at a reasonable cost. Beats having to wear all the bling in an environment that doesn't require or need it.

Since I got interrupted while replying, I'll address the "old" thing. Why does it matter? I walk in the door in a polo shirt, and people know two things - I'm a senior member, and I'm planning on working inside at mission base. I'm terrible with names, and like nametags, but it's no big deal if there aren't any. I'll learn the names of the folks I'm working with, and get on with business.

[Flying Pig]

I fly about 6 hours per day in a flight suit....with a varied assortment of underoos. I think it would be harder to work in a polo shirt.  But thats just me.  Of course, my department doesnt REQUIRE all leather boots either.

[jimmydeanno]

If we are trying to get closer ties with the Air Force, we should probably wear the PC more often.

The last airshow I went to, the Air Force recruiters were wearing polo shirts and khakis...

[Eagle400]

If we are trying to get closer ties with the Air Force, we should probably wear the PC more often.

The last airshow I went to, the Air Force recruiters were wearing polo shirts and khakis...

No, it means that the CAP polo shirt uniform should be only worn for recruiting activities.  That would put CAP more in line with the Air Force, but wouldn't make the ties any closer. 

Having better leaders, a fair membership termination process, way better oversight by the command echelons, and better enforcement of the regulations already in place will get CAP closer ties with the Air Force.     

[california IC]

In fact, if we have to use the bogus "safety" argument that they're using in Pacific Region, to get people in flightsuits, that may be just what we have to do. 

As one that has received third degree burns it goes far beyond safety.  The cost in dollars alone to treat a victim of a preventable burn could be less than that the cost of one hundred nomex flightsuits.  That's just the cost of the treatment, not the loss of earnings, pain, disfigurement.  The Phoenix Fire Department in the late 70's and early 80's found the cost of just one burned ear exceeded the cost to buy nomex hoods for all their firefighters.  In PCR, they have taken the choice of nomex away, and I personally think that's a good thing.  It would be a shame to lose an aircrew member from a burn after he survived a crash in his aircraft.  Nomex  can buy a crash victim a little extra time to get out of the aircraft or maybe a chance to pull another crewmember out. 
I won't touch the Polo question....just like the nomex, it is a no win situation.

[RiverAux]

No reason to start the whole Nomex argument up again...I just called it bogus because NHQ and the AF have obviously examined this issue and if they thought that wearing Nomex would make any difference in terms of injury and associated medical costs, or death and associated insurance claims, it would be a requirement throughout CAP and not just in 1 region.

[california IC]

I guess the cost of a Phoenix firefighter is greater than a CAP volunteer...go figure!
Seems the bean counters have crunched the numbers.

[jb512]

Tell that to the Ground Teams or the UDF teams.  Tell it to my composite squadron that doesn't have any pilots.  The only uniforms we wear are BDUs, Service Uniform and yes, the Golf shirt/gray slacks.

I'd be happy to tell them, but in the proper context.  The AF is a flying organization as well, but they do have ground assets.  One is not more important than the other.

I've been wearing the blue suit for 48 years now and I like to be comfortable.  We meet on Camp Pendleton and the commanding general has put out the order that the Marines CAN NOT wear BDUs into town except straight to duty and home.  Therefore, out of respect for them and the fact that I don't eat until after the meeting, I wear the Golf Shirt combo.

If I'm going to a staff meeting at higher headquarters or on a visit, I'll wear the blue suit.  Also, regs state that if you are flying somewhere, say a conference, the Golf Shirt is authorized.

I'm getting old and, as my nick name implies, Grumpy but if I can be comfortable I'll take that anytime.

And I respect that and the regs, I just don't completely agree with the concept.  Maybe it's me, but the only time my blues are uncomfortable is when I'm wearing garters.

[Major Carrales]

This golf shirt issue just will not die.

Fact is, most arguments for and against golf shirts are pretty frivolous.

For...

1) We need to look like other agencies...

Sorry, no, we need to look like CAP.  No matter what we look like, our worth will be determined by preformance.  

2) It's more comfortable...

Really, keep in mind it is a shirt.  A button up shirt shares all the same issues as a golf shirt.  It has to be tucked in, it is just as restrictive.  I am assuming it will not be wadded up and removed from a pocket...although I have seen some aviators take what looks like a rag out of their tool box and put it on.

3) It is safer than a flight suit...

What material are these thing made out of?  Cotton?  Polyester?

4) I don't want to play soldier...

But you do want to play golf?  I think that a classroom environment lends itself to the golf shirt.  The best uniform I see for CAP flying is either the new Corporate Blue Bants/White Shirt or the older White-Greys.  They look like what people think of as professional pilot.

These are, of course, only my opinions on the matter.

In the grand course of things, it will not be the syle of our dress that distinguishes us a professionals, but rather the ability to preform the missions.

[Pace]

Oh snap...

*Proud member of the Mississippi Wing* 

[Major Carrales]

One last thing on the Golf Shirts in that Photo...



Note the various styles.  CAP "Cookie" on the left side...some on the right side.  Some full color, some silkscreened.  Some with names, some with out.  Likely every shade of grey trousers as well.  The point to that...a unifrom standard should be established.

Hummmm....the real point to all this...

Ancillary as the day is long!!!

[Avery]

I like the comment, "a classroom environment lends itself to the golf shirt." To that I would add: Uniforms for the drill deck, BDUs for field work, and flight suits for flying.

[Major Carrales]

I like the comment, "a classroom environment lends itself to the golf shirt." To that I would add: Uniforms for the drill deck, BDUs for field work, and flight suits for flying.

Well said... Missions Bases should be in Minimum Service Dress (Corporate or USAF Style), Ground Teams in BDUs (same as before) and Aircrews in Flight suits (same as before).

Again, rememeber these unifrom topics are ancillary to the greater goals of getting the missions done well.

[Eclipse]

I like the comment, "a classroom environment lends itself to the golf shirt." To that I would add: Uniforms for the drill deck, BDUs for field work, and flight suits for flying.

Awesome! I agree!

And as soon as the USCAP starts issuing uniforms, I'll sign on to the idea.

Don't get me wrong, I'm wearing a $180+ blue nomex suit myself,

but not everyone can afford to drop 2 Benji's for a pair of pajamas, fire proof or not.

A rule like that would preclude many highly-proficient aircrew, not just pilots, from participating.

[Dragoon]

By the way, I'm not a fan of the golf shirt.  No rank, and no USAF equivalent uniform.  I wear flight suits.

But here's why I think here's why it's winning out


1.  "It's cheap.  Especially if I've already got grey pants sitting around somewhere.  Plus, thanks to 39-1 classifying it as the equivalent of short sleeve service dress, I can wear for virtually any CAP activity."

2. "It's easy.  If I wear the other stuff I have to worry about sewing/pinning on badges, shining shoes, etc.  With the gold shirt, I just slip it on and go!"

3. "It lets me avoid the whole "military" side of CAP.  I don't have to salute anyone.  No one knows my grade.  I don't have to worry about putting on a hat outdoors and taking it off indoors.  Basically, I can stay in my comfort zone.  All this military stuff makes me uncomfortable, either because I'm not trained it it, or I did it for 20 years and I'm sick of it.    Better to avoid it.  And CAP lets me avoid it.

4.  "It's COOL.  Literally.  There is no more comfortable uniform in a hot cockpit than a golf shirt and lightweight slacks.  And when I'm hot and sweaty, I'm not performing at my best."

5. "I'm not worried about burning to death in a plane.  It seems heck of alot more likely that the impact will kill me first, and no one's making me wear a helmet...."


I can think of no simple way to overcome these arguments - they're all pretty good.  Only by killing the golf shirt entirely, or restricting it's wear to certain activities will we see less of them.

[Eclipse]

Customs and courtesies apply in all CAP uniforms.

As to the other arguments, "cheap & easy" is the whole point of that combo. 

I generally encourage new members to go with that combo first, see if they click with CAP, and then "reward" themselves with something more "complicated" when they get their first grade appointment.

Save money for the newbs who don't stick, saves the collars of the shirts for those who do, and the odds of most seniors needing anything more in the first 6 months of the CAP career are pretty low. (YMMV)

[Dragoon]

Customs and courtesies apply in all CAP uniforms.

As to the other arguments, "cheap & easy" is the whole point of that combo. 

I generally encourage new members to go with that combo first, see if they click with CAP, and then "reward" themselves with something more "complicated" when they get their first grade appointment.

Save money for the newbs who don't stick, saves the collars of the shirts for those who do, and the odds of most seniors needing anything more in the first 6 months of the CAP career are pretty low. (YMMV)

Nope.  You don't have to salute in a golf shirt.  And it's pretty easy to avoid throwing "sir" into a conversation if no one knows if they outrank you or not.

Not defending it.  Just sayin' it.


Your assumption that members start with the golf shirt and move on doesn't match what folks are observing.  We're talking about the guys who never go any farther.

[floridacyclist]

Am curious, where does it say that you don't have to salute in a golf shirt?

[Eclipse]

Your assumption that members start with the golf shirt and move on doesn't match what folks are observing.  We're talking about the guys who never go any farther.

I didn't say I assumed that was what was happening, I said it was what >I< encourage new members to do,  especially with members who may not have gotten the whole story at the air show or other recruiting opportunity. Once I have that conversation, if the members want to go whole-hog on service dress, that's fine - they just can't say I didn't suggest a less expensive alternative.

In general, proper uniform wear is as easy as positive peer pressure. 

Nope.  You don't have to salute in a golf shirt.  And it's pretty easy to avoid throwing "sir" into a conversation if no one knows if they outrank you or not.

Chapter and verse, please.

[RiverAux]

Do you really need a specific reglation quote to tell you that those in civilian clothes are not required to salute higher ups?

[DKruse]

Not really a regulation, but.......

http://level2.cap.gov/documents/u_082503084356.pdf

Look at Section A.2.b.(1).  The only uniform specified when you must salute is in a military-style uniform.  However, it doesn't prohibit saluting while wearing any of the corporate uniforms, including the golf shirt.

[Eclipse]

Do you really need a specific reglation quote to tell you that those in civilian clothes are not required to salute higher ups?

Yes, this is a point of specific contention with me for the reason you indicate - the golf shirt, or other distinctive combinations, are not "civilian clothes", they are a CAP uniform.

There's obvious latitude when you don't know someone or their grade, but since we're all officers, it should go without saying that verbal courtesies should be maintained no matter what you are wearing.  And if you know the position or grade of the person you are standing in front of, a salute won't kill anyone.

Cadets generally "get" this, but it seems its the seniors who are most reluctant to maintain the professional separation that courtesies engender.

If a respective commander or officer chooses to allow latitude in formalities, that is their prerogative, but certainly the formality should be assumed until your are told otherwise.

[Eclipse]

Not really a regulation, but.......

http://level2.cap.gov/documents/u_082503084356.pdf

Look at Section A.2.b.(1).  The only uniform specified when you must salute is in a military-style uniform.  However, it doesn't prohibit saluting while wearing any of the corporate uniforms, including the golf shirt.

Below is the relevant text, and I will grant is does not indicate "will" for corporates as it does for military-style.  As indicated, it doesn't say won't, either, and frankly I don't think about it enough
to >not< do it on most occasions, and as I indicated, verbal courtesies should be maintained regardless.

Certainly if you are wearing whites, or the TPU, you should salute - especially in front of cadets.

Why wouldn't you? (assuming its not a flightline / no salute are, etc.)

b. Saluting. It is a courtesy exchanged between members of the Civil Air Patrol when in military-style uniform as both a greeting and a symbol of mutual respect. As such, it is never inappropriate to salute another individual. The basic rules regarding saluting for CAP members are:
(1) You salute when in military-style uniform.
(2) You salute the President of the United States, all

Medal of Honor recipients, and commissioned officers and warrant officers of the Armed Forces who are senior in rank to you.
(3) You do not salute when indoors unless you are formally reporting to an officer senior in rank to you.
(4) You salute when outdoors unless:
(a) You are carrying articles (or a heavy object) in both hands, which cannot be transferred to the left hand, or another legitimate reason such as injury, and so forth. In this case, an oral greeting should be exchanged, such as "Good Morning, Sir or Ma'am." If you are the lower ranking individual and the one you are approaching is higher in rank but whose arms are incapacitated, you will still salute.
(b) You are in a designated "covered" or "no salute" area, (aircraft marshalling areas and flightlines are "no salute" areas).
(c) You are a member of a military formation or a work detail (only the senior member of the formation or detail salutes).
(d) You are attending a public gathering such as a sports event.
(5) When on a military installation, you salute officers in government cars if the car has a flag or metal standard that identifies the rank of the occupant (usually general officers and military wing or base commanders).
(6) Military personnel are not required to render a salute to CAP personnel, but they are not restricted from doing so if they desire.

[Dragoon]

They wouldn't say "military style uniform" if the courtesies applied to ALL uniforms.  Obviously, some uniforms are exempt.

The obvious 2 are golf shirts and blazers.  In fact, in the old level 1 video they specifically demonstrated folks in blazers not saluting while their brethren in service dress did salute.

The TPU seems pretty "military style."

The BBDU and Blue Utility/Flight suits probably fall into that realm, but since headgear is optional on them, I can see it both ways (BDUs without a hat outdoors look a lot less "military").

The White and Greys are probably the place most arguments would occur.  No hat and civilian pants.  But on the other hand, same grade, nameplate and other bling as short sleeve service dress.

Without more specific guidance, this one's gonna be an area of misundertanding for some time to come.

But in the meantime, it's a pretty good bet thatt  you're safe avoiding saluting by wearing a golf shirt.  Which I think is part of the appeal...

[Grumpy]

This might not be in the order of what we are talking about, but, I like wearing the gray slacks and golf shirt because I am diabetic and I can wear my black non-military SAS shoes with that combination and my feet don't hurt any more.

[DKruse]

They wouldn't say "military style uniform" if the courtesies applied to ALL uniforms.  Obviously, some uniforms are exempt.

...

Without more specific guidance, this one's gonna be an area of misundertanding for some time to come.

But in the meantime, it's a pretty good bet thatt  you're safe avoiding saluting by wearing a golf shirt.  Which I think is part of the appeal...

Here's how I look at it (and I could be wrong):

AF-Style Uniform (as defined by CAPM 39-1) are "military-style".
CAP Corporate uniforms are not "military-style".

This is an interesting issue that caused a little bit of a problem for me...

As a new member a few years ago, I attended a SLS where some cadets taught the uniform and C&C sections.  One of the cadet instructors said that we were prohibited from saluting unless we were wearing AF-style uniforms.  At a meeting a few weeks later, I was called to the front by the squadron commander.  Wearing the aviator shirt, I didn't salute as I was reporting in.  He stood there waiting for me to salute and I quietly told him that I wasn't supposed to salute.  It was quite an awkward moment.  After that, I looked into the issue and even sent a question into the Knowledgebase.  Their reply was that C&C are not prohibited while wearing the corporate uniforms, but neither was it required.  They referred to the section in CAPP 151 that is indicated in my previous post and quoted by Eclipse.

I think proper respect should be shown no matter what uniform you are wearing, but I won't come down on somebody for not saluting while wearing a corporate uniform.

[floridacyclist]

In the RealMilitary@, we saluted even in civillian clothes. Often the officer would wave his hand and say "it's OK guys, we're off-duty", but at least we made the gesture. The respect is deserved by the officer from the subordinate regardless of the clothing being worn whether it's required by regs or not.

[Major Carrales]

Heaven forbid people actually render military courtesies in the U.S. Air Force Auxiliary!!!  What would the neighbor's think?

[Bluelakes 13]

My first reaction to this was "poppycock!" Then I looked in CAPP 151, Section A, 2b. "Saluting. It is a courtesy exchanged between members of the Civil Air Patrol when in military-style uniform as both a greeting and a symbol of mutual respect. As such, it is never inappropriate to salute another individual. The basic rules regarding saluting for CAP members are:
(1) You salute when in military-style uniform.
(2) You salute the President of the United States, all Medal of Honor recipients, and commissioned officers and warrant officers of the Armed Forces who are senior in rank to
you.
(3) You do not salute when indoors unless you are formally reporting to an officer senior in rank to you."

Interesting.  Things you learn when you look them up.  So I take (3) above to mean exclusive of (1), thus you salute when reporting to a senior regardless of uniform.  But in other circumstances, you salute only AF-style uniforms.

[RiverAux]

No, it is not REQUIRED that you salute while in civilian uniform.  It is while you are in military uniform. 

[Eclipse]

No, it is not REQUIRED that you salute while in civilian uniform.  It is while you are in military uniform. 

There are a lot of things in life that are not "required", but which are wholly appropriate and even expected.

[Dragoon]

It has been my experience that when you expect something that is not required......you're likely to be disappointed a lot.  Because so many folks won't see it the same way you do.

[Dragoon]

In the RealMilitary@, we saluted even in civillian clothes. Often the officer would wave his hand and say "it's OK guys, we're off-duty", but at least we made the gesture. The respect is deserved by the officer from the subordinate regardless of the clothing being worn whether it's required by regs or not.

I've found that to be very true in the Army, but not so prevalent a custom in USAF.  YMMV

[Hawk200]

In the RealMilitary@, we saluted even in civillian clothes. Often the officer would wave his hand and say "it's OK guys, we're off-duty", but at least we made the gesture. The respect is deserved by the officer from the subordinate regardless of the clothing being worn whether it's required by regs or not.

I've found that to be very true in the Army, but not so prevalent a custom in USAF.  YMMV

I had a commander in tech school that demanded salutes even when he was in civilian clothes. There were three occasions that I encountered him when in civvies, and didn't salute. When he "called" me on it, I always responded with "Sorry, sir, didn't recognize you in civilian clothes."

I have a feeling that was overall less trouble than telling him "I think you're an -------, and C&C doesn't require me to salute your fat --- when we're in civvies anyway!"

[Larry Mangum]

I also was taught to salute a superior officer if he was in civilian clothing while serving in the USAF during the late seventies.

[star1151]

I also was taught to salute a superior officer if he was in civilian clothing while serving in the USAF during the late seventies.

My brother learned the same thing in the Marines and my parents the same thing in the Navy.  Maybe not required, but definitely acceptable.  Not sure why it's such an issue with CAP.  That being said, I'd feel uncomfortable saluting in the golf shirt uniform...like it's not something I'm entitled to.

[MIKE]

Because CAPP 151 says "when in military style uniform".  At the time the pamphlet was written blue BDUs, utility uniforms and the TPU didn't exist.

[Dragoon]

So true.  I know the blazer existed when it was written - I don't know about the golf shirt. 

But we definitely need a definition of what "military style" actually means.

[Eclipse]

I also was taught to salute a superior officer if he was in civilian clothing while serving in the USAF during the late seventies.

My brother learned the same thing in the Marines and my parents the same thing in the Navy.  Maybe not required, but definitely acceptable.  Not sure why it's such an issue with CAP. 

Because arguing about legalistic minutia is much easier than actually doing anything of value.

In the RealMilitary® uniforms, courtesies, and procedures are drummed into every recruit the same way for weeks until they are second nature.  Things become more "relaxed" as they move into tech schools and have "real" work to do, however the baseline expectation is identical for everyone, and any "adjustments" to standard are made clear and enforced uniformly.

In CAP, there is no uniform basic training, not even a uniform expectation of knowledge by commanders and training officers.  Further, because many of our members are about as diplomatic as an elephant in a china shop, corrections are often treated as "gotchas", instead of just a quiet conversation meant to fix a problem.  In many cases commanders are both less informed, and apathetic, about uniforms than their membership.

Don't confuse apathy about uniforms with inability to perform a useful operational task, but it does make you a poor choice as a leader of an organization which stresses attention to detail.

In the end, in both the RealMilitary® and CAP, the concern over uniform nuances and courtesies becomes much less of an "upfront" issue as you gain experience, because adhering to regs is just "part of the game" and you forget about it and move on - because you have real work to do.

However if your sum total involvement in CAP is hitting refresh on CAPTalk, you don't have anything else to do but nitpick on saluting distance, reverse flags, and which camo pattern is on the "blouse", sorry, "jacket", um, no "shirt"...

[Short Field]

Saluting is simply an exchange of courtesies between individuals of different rank.  Besides, it is the only time even a Airman Basic can make a General do something... 

[Eclipse]

It doesn't even have to be different grade - it you accidentally salute someone who is an equal or lesser grade, the world does not stop revolving.

However what is >does< do is make you pause (mentally) and take note of who and what the people around you are and have done. 

[DogCollar]

When in doubt...salute!  Also, the golf shirt is okay by me.  I even wear it on occassion!

[Grumpy]

Somehow, I just don't think this dead horse is going to stand.  Why keep beating it?

[Slim]

  Can't believe I'm getting sucked into this one again.....

Why is it such a big deal who rates a salute or not?  Did two captains, one wearing AF service dress and one wearing CSU, not accomplish the same requirements to earn their grade?  Why is the officer wearing a corporate uniform any less worthy of a salute than one in an AF style uniform?  They both did the same courses, spent the same minimum amount of time in the program to get where they are.  Just because one officer chooses, or has the integrity, to wear the proper uniform, why is s/he not entitled to a greeting from a cadet or lower ranking officer?  If nothing else, I'd have more respect for someone who may be close enough to the standard, but still over it, and wearing a corporate uniform than a similar officer stuffed into an AF style uniform. 

If I had the power, I'd say that saluting between CAP members is required, regardless of uniform.  Exchanging salutes between members in corporate uniforms and military members, while awkward, does happen.  At least it happens to me on a regular basis on the base we hold our encampments at.  Even though those guardsmen know that it's not required, I'm greeted several times with a salute and a "Hello, sir." 

The golf shirt uniforms are a sticky wicket, because there is no grade displayed anywhere.  However, if you know you're about to pass a higher ranking officer in a golf shirt, what's wrong with exchanging salutes?  One again, it's about recognizing a higher ranking officer, not about the duds one of you is wearing. 

I'm sure the regulation purists among us are probably twitching in their chairs right now, but I'm just a reasonable person trying to apply reason and common sense to something that should be a non-issue among fellow unpaid professionals.  Somewhere on here, in an old thread, I told a story about saluting in the grey/white combo, and being just short of physically corrected by an officer who was then serving as the national IG, while on the reviewing stand at encampment.  Long and short of it was that the colonel (who is a mentor and friend) told me that salutes weren't rendered in civilian clothes.  My response was that I salute in my fire dept uniform all the time, and it's not a military uniform.  At the next opportunity during the ceremony, there he was (he is a retired police officer, btw, so he understood my analogy), in his blazer combo, proudly saluting the colors as they marched past.

In the end, what is a salute?  A gesture of greeting between two people, the military (or paramilitary, in our case) equivalent of waving.  What does is matter what one or both of them are wearing?

Oh, by the way, I don't recall which one, but one of the ICLs on the CSU states that military customs and courtesies apply to members in that uniform.

[JayT]

I think the difference Major, is that some view the Corporate uniform as an example of someone who doesn't really want to be 'military.'

[Hawk200]

I think the difference Major, is that some view the Corporate uniform as an example of someone who doesn't really want to be 'military.'

And there are also many that are wearing the Corporate that don't wish to be military in appearance either. It's a strange viewpoint that does go both ways.

[MIKE]

IIRC there is/was (a now technically invalid) ICL that prescribed C&C for the TPU/Corporate Service Uniform.

And there are also many that are wearing the Corporate that don't wish to be military in appearance either. It's a strange viewpoint that does go both ways.

Which would seem counter to the original idea behind the uniform.  A uniform for those members who could not wear the AF style uniform for reasons of wieght... which was "more military" or "more of a uniform" than the blazer and aviator shirt combinations already available.

[Slim]

I think the difference Major, is that some view the Corporate uniform as an example of someone who doesn't really want to be 'military.'

True, in the case of those who choose to wear the golf shirts.  Which is fine, I finally broke down and got one that I wear in certain situations too.  However, being in a position of leadership in my unit and wing, I believe that the only difference between the military style and corporates is the color.  Otherwise, I put just as much effort into preparing my corporate uniforms (pressed/starched, insigina properly placed/sewn, boots shined, etc) as I did as a cadet and young senior preparing blues, fatigues and BDUs.  I keep my grooming well within standards.I'm one of the few who also puts as much effort into keeping my work uniforms looking sharp.  I don't want to be in the military.  If I did (and wasn't medically disqualified), I would have joined the military.  What I am in is a paramilitary organization.  I don't for one second think I'm equal to a RealMilitary officer.  What I am, and what I'm proud of, is a major in the Civil Air Patrol. 

I think the difference Major, is that some view the Corporate uniform as an example of someone who doesn't really want to be 'military.'

And there are also many that are wearing the Corporate that don't wish to be military in appearance either. It's a strange viewpoint that does go both ways.

Agreed, and I can live with that too.  Like I said, there's nothing wrong with wearing the golf shirt combo.  I wear it myself in situations, mostly attending PD classes, or in situations where I want to soften down the military aspect of the program.  But, being a larger member who is almost exclusively involved in cadet programs at the unit and wing levels, it's my opinion that corporate uniforms can (and should) be treated no differently.

IIRC there is/was (a now technically invalid) ICL that prescribed C&C for the TPU/Corporate Service Uniform.

And there are also many that are wearing the Corporate that don't wish to be military in appearance either. It's a strange viewpoint that does go both ways.

Which would seem counter to the original idea behind the uniform.  A uniform for those members who could not wear the AF style uniform for reasons of wieght... which was "more military" or "more of a uniform" than the blazer and aviator shirt combinations already available.

Tell you what, why don't we just trash everything that "He-who's-name-remains-unsaid" did by ICL?  Just do away with all of it?  Yeah, that gets rid of the CSU, American flags, and US Civil Air Patrol tapes.  Oh, by the way, that also gets rid of grade on BDU covers, and makes wing patches on blues and BDUs mandatory once again.  Not so "Technically" invalid now is it?  I'll get out my greys, just as soon as you start sewing wing patches again.  And that's just touching on uniforms.  There were plenty of other regs and manuals changed by now "Techically" invalid ICL.  To include the new AFIADL testing procedures that are now making my SOS experience a pain in the FPOC. 

Statements like that work both ways, but I suspect that the purists don't see it that way.  What if we were to take the CGAux stand that customs and courtesies aren't required among members?  I had no issues with it in that organization, and I'd have no issue with it in this organization.  I suspect that some of the more "Militant" members of this organization would.

With age and experience come wisdom.  I know that i'm not going to change anyone else's opinion on this subject any more than anyone else is going to change mine.

With that, I'm going back to doing what I normally do on uniform threads.....

[Carl C]

Obvious problem with the polo shirt is that you don't know who you are talking to - not only does it not have the grade on the shirt but some of them don't even have a name. And face it, the polo shirt is "old people" clothing. If you like it, fine, but it does tend to look like something "old" people would wear. Nothing wrong with "old" people by the way... I just think almost anything other uniform would look better.

Hmmm...   You would be talking WITH a fellow CAP member.      "Old person" clothing.   "Nothing wrong with old people?"   

[Grumpy]

Speaking of "old" people.  Nothing looks sillier than a 65 year old Capt.  But I guess with the way some of you are talking they just have to wear the AF uniform so they can be a 65 year old Capt. be saluted.

Oh yes, you can order the golf shirt with wings and you name and rank embroidered on it so people will know who you are.

[SarDragon]

Speaking of "old" people.  Nothing looks sillier than a 65 year old Capt.  But I guess with the way some of you are talking they just have to wear the AF uniform so they can be a 65 year old Capt. be saluted.

Oh yes, you can order the golf shirt with wings and you name and rank embroidered on it so people will know who you are.

No rank, Grump.

[jpravain]

When I was a young senior member, I wore a combination of the CAP blue nomex, CAP jumpsuit (yuk) and BDU. I personally believe any CAP flying uniform should not resemble combat uniforms. Civil Air Patrol is NOT the US Air force. It is only the auxiliary (sometimes). Uniforms worn on SAR/DR missions should be brighter colors i.e. CAP flightsuit (older royal blue that is being phased out). Even a combination of red/blue flightsuits would be desirable. In my opinion, I think it's nonsense to wear nomex in single engine civil aircraft in a non combat role. Most of the single engine controlled crashes I've seen did not result in fire anyway. So the crew's visibility from the air would be more important in a mishap. CAP should NOT/NEVER be confused with the real Air Force. I wish/hope one day CAP will fall under the Dept of Homeland Security under a new name like the Coast Guard is and all this foolishness in regards to uniforms/ranks/titles/scandals etc. etc. will go away. The Air Force already has a cadet program in place in the high schools......but that is another can of worms. I like to see the organization go this route http://www.casara.ca/ and still be under control of the federal gov't.

[Flying Pig]

I love the blue royal blue flight suit!  (Not to be confused with the jumpsuit)  On the Fossett search there was a pilot wearing a darker blue flight suit and it looked great.  Even the Coast Guard red flight suits are great.

But I guess a big argument for the green suit is that we can get them surplus a lot cheaper and in greater supply.

[Hawk200]

When I was a young senior member, I wore a combination of the CAP blue nomex, CAP jumpsuit (yuk) and BDU. I personally believe any CAP flying uniform should not resemble combat uniforms. Civil Air Patrol is NOT the US Air force. It is only the auxiliary (sometimes). Uniforms worn on SAR/DR missions should be brighter colors i.e. CAP flightsuit (older royal blue that is being phased out). Even a combination of red/blue flightsuits would be desirable. In my opinion, I think it's nonsense to wear nomex in single engine civil aircraft in a non combat role. Most of the single engine controlled crashes I've seen did not result in fire anyway. So the crew's visibility from the air would be more important in a mishap. CAP should NOT/NEVER be confused with the real Air Force. I wish/hope one day CAP will fall under the Dept of Homeland Security under a new name like the Coast Guard is and all this foolishness in regards to uniforms/ranks/titles/scandals etc. etc. will go away. The Air Force already has a cadet program in place in the high schools......but that is another can of worms. I like to see the organization go this route http://www.casara.ca/ and still be under control of the federal gov't.

You seem to be the perfect example of the type that dislikes the concept of rank structure or you got canned so therefore Civil Air Patrol is evil and requires your wisdom to actually become something of value. (Yes, even though you say "I personally believe")

You obviously don't like CAP as it is in any manner, why bother moaning and groaning about it when you want something completely different? That CASARA seems to be what you want, why not move to Canada and join them? Or form something similar in the US, if you actually have the courage or the means. CAP isn't going to magically turn into your little playtoy, why not make your own?

And your line of

I like to see the organization go this route http://www.casara.ca/ and still be under control of the federal gov't

is really kind of ignorant. Any government has rank, it's just not displayed as rank insignia. The WG-11 will always outrank the WG-7, and will make absololutely certain that the WG-7 knows it. There is no such thing as a government system where grade does not exist. Any organization within the government will have some manner of ranking.

You seem to be forgetting a large amount of facts in your little reality.

[O-Rex]

I've seen differing opinions: over the years I went through different uniform "phases."  When I first joined CAP I wouldn't have been caught dead wearing 'Grays,' but now, with the exception of the TPU jacket, I think I have the full complement of USAF and Corporate duds.  Some folks collect postage stamps, others action-figures, I guess I collect CAP costumes....

(I once had to buy a blue blazer for a 'day-job' related meeting that called for it as well as heather-gray slacks, so I said what-the-heck and got the crest & nameplate, and ended up using the uniform for "meet & greet" duty in the hotel lobby at a WingConf.)

Anyway, I never felt less of a member in one uniform than another.  The Golf shirt is a nice "in-a-pinch" uniform, depending on the formality of the event.

[JayT]

When I was a young senior member, I wore a combination of the CAP blue nomex, CAP jumpsuit (yuk) and BDU. I personally believe any CAP flying uniform should not resemble combat uniforms. Civil Air Patrol is NOT the US Air force. It is only the auxiliary (sometimes). Uniforms worn on SAR/DR missions should be brighter colors i.e. CAP flightsuit (older royal blue that is being phased out). Even a combination of red/blue flightsuits would be desirable. In my opinion, I think it's nonsense to wear nomex in single engine civil aircraft in a non combat role. Most of the single engine controlled crashes I've seen did not result in fire anyway. So the crew's visibility from the air would be more important in a mishap. CAP should NOT/NEVER be confused with the real Air Force. I wish/hope one day CAP will fall under the Dept of Homeland Security under a new name like the Coast Guard is and all this foolishness in regards to uniforms/ranks/titles/scandals etc. etc. will go away. The Air Force already has a cadet program in place in the high schools......but that is another can of worms. I like to see the organization go this route http://www.casara.ca/ and still be under control of the federal gov't.

You seem to be the perfect example of the type that dislikes the concept of rank structure or you got canned so therefore Civil Air Patrol is evil and requires your wisdom to actually become something of value. (Yes, even though you say "I personally believe")

You obviously don't like CAP as it is in any manner, why bother moaning and groaning about it when you want something completely different? That CASARA seems to be what you want, why not move to Canada and join them? Or form something similar in the US, if you actually have the courage or the means. CAP isn't going to magically turn into your little playtoy, why not make your own?

And your line of

I like to see the organization go this route http://www.casara.ca/ and still be under control of the federal gov't

is really kind of ignorant. Any government has rank, it's just not displayed as rank insignia. The WG-11 will always outrank the WG-7, and will make absololutely certain that the WG-7 knows it. There is no such thing as a government system where grade does not exist. Any organization within the government will have some manner of ranking.

You seem to be forgetting a large amount of facts in your little reality.

That seems like a lot of aggression for a simple statement.

[Hawk200]

That seems like a lot of aggression for a simple statement.

Maybe so. But it also shows that people on this board know full well why certain posters are here. In "2bLT"'s case, it seems to be an individual that got canned, didn't do anything about it, and now considers CAP in it's current incarnation "evil". I just happen to be the first person blunt enough to say it.

Now the individual seems to think that if CAP gets revamped to the way they want it to be, it won't be evil anymore. That they have all the answers. The unfortunate fact that escapes some of these people is that even if the organization gets revamped, a lot of the "Old Guard" people are actually going to still be there. They may not have rank insignia anymore, but the people that generate the problems would probably still  be there.

2bLT says that there is an AFJROTC program in place, and gives the impression that the CAP cadet program lacks any reason for existance. Having been a cadet for awhile, do you feel that AFJROTC would have given you the same opportunities that CAP has? Was there an AFJROTC program even local to you at all?

Realigning CAP under DHS will alter what CAP is. It won't be a benevolent or a non-profit organization anymore. Not to mention, there are a number of people in CAP that wouldn't even want to work under DHS. Not sure I'd even want to.

The problem is that some disgruntled posters don't seem to understand that we know they think CAP needs an overhaul. Even Ray Hayden didn't advocate revamping the organization into another entity entirely, he just had a problem with one individual. We have other people that have problems with the current command chain, but they don't advocate radically altering what the organization is. Some people have an almost delusional idea that if it should get changed to what they think it should be, and that since they have the answers, they would have a place in the new regime.

[JayT]

I was indeed a Cadet Major in the NY-093 AFJROTC Detachment. I know that JROTC didn't give me the same opportunities that CAP gave me, but JROTC did have some pretty serious things that CAP didn't have.

Honestly? I agree with you. I don't think I would want to be under CAP if it wasn't a uniformed organization.

[star1151]

I think the difference Major, is that some view the Corporate uniform as an example of someone who doesn't really want to be 'military.'

And that's too bad.  I'd be wearing the AF uniform if I was competent enough to fix my hair so it conforms to regulations.  Doesn't mean I have anything against the military aspect, in fact, I like it.  Being new, I just don't understand the hatred for the golf shirt uniform.

[Hawk200]

I think the difference Major, is that some view the Corporate uniform as an example of someone who doesn't really want to be 'military.'

And that's too bad.  I'd be wearing the AF uniform if I was competent enough to fix my hair so it conforms to regulations.  Doesn't mean I have anything against the military aspect, in fact, I like it.  Being new, I just don't understand the hatred for the golf shirt uniform.

I don't understand "hatred" for the golf shirt, it looks OK to me. What I do question is whether or not it is approppriate at times. Went to a fly-in at an out-in-the-sticks airfield a few weeks ago, and saw a senior member wearing the golf shirt with grey slacks, and boots wearing all his green web gear. This individual was out doing practice ELT searches.

It just didn't look right to me. A guy in a polo shirt and slacks just doesn't look prepared to go tromping around the woods, or walking all over a grass airstrip. And he was the only person that showed up to this "activity" in that uniform. Everyone else was wearing BDU's (woodlands, but I think a blue BDU would have been perfectly appropriate).

That aside, I've considered a golf shirt myself. Just haven't gotten around to getting one. I don't have proper slacks to wear with it either. Maybe next paycheck.

[Grumpy]

Ah yes, here it is 15:30.  Time to get into my, dare I say it?  Yes!  I will say it!  Blue CAP golf shirt and my gray slacks with my non-military SAS shoes, because they don't hurt my diabetic feet, and head out to my squadron meeting place.   I am so bad. 

[Short Field]

Grumpy, I have that same uniform combination and it is my preferred uniform.  Got to love those SAS low quarters.

[Grumpy]

Amen

[jpravain]

Hawk200,

First off, who do you think you are for judging me? I stated a personal opinion. I resigned from a squadron I did not enjoy being a part of 10 years ago (I was 21 average age in squadron 60+ do I need say more) and recently wanted to get back in until I did some research on current events regarding CAP and find you have a Nat'l Cmdr who was forced terminated due to cheating. He embarrassed the organization, it's members, and the US Air Force. The relationship w/ the USAF has NEVER been this bad. I perceive the organization in it's current state as not working and a change can be good. You sir are ignorant for posting such a harsh response to me w/o even giving me the benefit of the doubt of my reasons for my post or my past history. You would think a "salty and seasoned contributer" would be a little more polite. Maybe I will move to Canada and join that organization.  There are alot of positive things about CAP in its current state but ask yourself how productive is the organization vs non productive? Why are all the members calling for change? Do yourself a favor and think before you post such a harsh and personal attack on someone who is just stating an opinion which is no more than an idea. Judging from how you attacked me personally for posting goes to show you are nothing more than a "keyboard tough guy" and you sir are in fact dis-gruntled. If you think CAP is fine the way it is now, maybe you need to check your little reality. I was both a CAP cadet (1 yr) and AFJROTC cadet (4 yrs) and I personally got more from the AFJROTC program because it was run by retired AF professionals. The only thing I liked about the CAP cadet program was the orientation flights. I was a Senior Member (3 yrs). Let me make this clear to you now, I have no grudge against CAP (or the past squadron) at all. No regrets. I am eager to rejoin and joined this board to research the progress of the organization for the past 11 years. I am not that impressed due to current events. I am all for a chain of command. I just would like to see one that works. Is the US Coast Guard under the Dept. of Homeland Security now? Do they have a non profit auxiliary? Anything is possible. If CAP can sustain itself under the Air Force and earn the respect of the Air Force (again) then I would like to see the organization remain under Air Force control. Nuff said in my defense. It is what it is. Take your aggression some place else.

[Ned]

Jason,

See this is part of the difficulty of effective communication on the internet;

Hawk200,

First off, who do you think you are for judging me? I stated a personal opinion.

You certainly stated a personal opinion.  So did he.  And I suspect all of us "judge" each other based on our posts.  That's probably unavoidable.

I resigned from a squadron I did not enjoy being a part of 10 years ago

In your other posts, you indicated that you were 2b'd. (and subsequently "resigned" prior to the "effective date" of your termination.)  That must have been a devastatiing experience.  You even mentioned burning your uniforms.  Clearly you had some strong negative opinions of CAP at the time.

And you have chosen the interesting screen name of "2bLt" rather than something like "resignedLt".

The relationship w/ the USAF has NEVER been this bad.

And this observation is based on . . . .?  Seriously, which senior AF officers (Say, O-5 and above) have you discussed this with?

I perceive the organization in it's current state as not working

Again, based on . . . ?  You seem like a reasonable person.  Surely you are not forming your opinions based on what you read in internet chat rooms, bulletin boards, and NOTF?

Our numbers are more or less the same as they have been recently, both in terms of membership (slightly lower)  and missions performed for the USAF and other government agencies (slightly higher).  And of course Congress has significantly increased our support in recent years.  They can't be too unhappy with us.

Why are all the members calling for change?

Or at least a lot of former members.   

Seriously, on what do you base this statement?

My personal experience is that weekly meetings around the country are going on pretty much as they always have -- hardwroking volunteers (including tens of thousands of cadets) working on improving their skills and serving their fellow Americans.

Sure they complain about "those guys" at group, wing, region, and NHQ, but they have been doing that fairly continuously since 1942.

I don't mean to minimize the current situation with our former National Commander, but I suspect that most members (as well as our USAF patners) suspect that the systems put into place to correct these kinds of problems functioned appropriately (if too slowly).  But the bottom line is that squadron meetings -- where CAP does 99% of its work -- are largely unaffected by turmoil at the NHQ level.

I was both a CAP cadet (1 yr) and AFJROTC cadet (4 yrs) and I personally got more from the AFJROTC program because it was run by retired AF professionals. The only thing I liked about the CAP cadet program was the orientation flights.

I'm sorry you didn't enjoy our terrific cadet program, but it can hardly be surprising that you "got more from" 4 yrs of JROTC that a single (apparently unhappy) year with CAP.  Just in contact hours alone, the ROTC folks had 5-6 times as much time with you.

And I am still jealous of the paid instructors and staff that form the backbone of the JROTC program.  Just imagine what CAP would be like if we could have full-time instructors at each cadet and composite unit!

Let me make this clear to you now, I have no grudge against CAP (or the past squadron) at all. No regrets.

See, this is the part that concerns me.  It is certainly an unusual attitude for someone in your situation to have.

If I heard someone who had gotten fired from McDonalds and who then took the additional step of burning his crew uniforms tell me that he had "no grudge or regrets" against McDonalds, I would find that a little hard to believe.  Especially if he used a equivalent screen name that referred to his involuntary termination.

But I'm the first to admit that I don't know you, and AFAIK we have never met.  I'd be interested in hearing what "turned you around" from an unhappy, terminated member into one who now eagerly seeks to rejoin.

I would like to see the organization remain under Air Force control.

There are certainly a lot of opinions on whether to and/or how to re-organize CAP.  And yours is certainly as valid as any of the others often offered here.

But it is probably worth remembering that it was not all that long ago that CAP was in fact commanded by a USAF general, and that all of the staffers at NHQ were AF folks -- a mixture of military and DoD civilians.

Heck, it was like that when I was a new member.

But I sure don't remember anyone talking about how efficient and well run CAP was during that era.  Indeed, some folks even then groused about the "problems" at group, wing, region, and even the USAF-run NHQ.

So be careful what you wish for.


Ned Lee
DCP, PCR

[jb512]

Hawk200,

First off, who do you think you are for judging me? I stated a personal opinion. I resigned from a squadron I did not enjoy being a part of 10 years ago (I was 21 average age in squadron 60+ do I need say more) and recently wanted to get back in until I did some research on current events regarding CAP and find you have a Nat'l Cmdr who was forced terminated due to cheating. He embarrassed the organization, it's members, and the US Air Force. The relationship w/ the USAF has NEVER been this bad. I perceive the organization in it's current state as not working and a change can be good. You sir are ignorant for posting such a harsh response to me w/o even giving me the benefit of the doubt of my reasons for my post or my past history. You would think a "salty and seasoned contributer" would be a little more polite. Maybe I will move to Canada and join that organization.  There are alot of positive things about CAP in its current state but ask yourself how productive is the organization vs non productive? Why are all the members calling for change? Do yourself a favor and think before you post such a harsh and personal attack on someone who is just stating an opinion which is no more than an idea. Judging from how you attacked me personally for posting goes to show you are nothing more than a "keyboard tough guy" and you sir are in fact dis-gruntled. If you think CAP is fine the way it is now, maybe you need to check your little reality. I was both a CAP cadet (1 yr) and AFJROTC cadet (4 yrs) and I personally got more from the AFJROTC program because it was run by retired AF professionals. The only thing I liked about the CAP cadet program was the orientation flights. I was a Senior Member (3 yrs). Let me make this clear to you now, I have no grudge against CAP (or the past squadron) at all. No regrets. I am eager to rejoin and joined this board to research the progress of the organization for the past 11 years. I am not that impressed due to current events. I am all for a chain of command. I just would like to see one that works. Is the US Coast Guard under the Dept. of Homeland Security now? Do they have a non profit auxiliary? Anything is possible. If CAP can sustain itself under the Air Force and earn the respect of the Air Force (again) then I would like to see the organization remain under Air Force control. Nuff said in my defense. It is what it is. Take your aggression some place else.

Hawk tends to a bit gruff with his replies at times, but I'm going to agree with him on this one.  So the national commander got the boot; so what?  My squadron does the same things today that it did last week when there was a different person wearing two stars on a grey sleeve with big silver letters embroidered on it.

There are some of us with the same and/or more experience than you've had and we seem to deal with things just fine.  Try and stay out of the politics and you might relax a little.

[Conical]

And the original purpose of this thread was ??.....Oh, yeah, the golf shirt.  I own one, plus the aviator shirt, because I can't meet the standards for the AF style uniform.  I like both.  Granted there are times when neither are appropriate, like tromping through the woods, at a conference banquet or, for the golf shirt, meeting with elected officials. 

[Conical]

Let me clarify my last comment.  I think, the aviator shirt can be appropriate at a banquet, but only when worn with the blazer, not by itself or without a tie.  Ya'll can smack me now.

[jpravain]

Ned,

I can understand one's opinion based off of my screen name and I also understand one making an opinion. However, he did dot have to attack me so aggressively. You ask why I do not hold a grudge now? Simple. 11 yrs have mellowed me and one squadron, wing and region is different from another. Why am I eager to serve again? I enjoy flying and I like the CAP SAR/DR mission. I was DO of cadets in CAP before. I am well aware of the cadet program and how great it is. For me, and maybe it was the fact I was influenced by my ASI/ASII instructors in AFJROTC alot more that I 'm closer to that program. I base my reason for stating the relationship with USAF/CAP on since I was in we were the USAF all the time. Now we are not. I was pending a 2b termination for multiple accusations placed on me but instead of fighting them I chose to resign, hoping to later join my old squadron I was in before where all the members knew me. I was a young man and the average age in the squadron or "flying club" was 60+. So, I was a treated differently. There were also some safety issues that were of major concern and were not being addressed yada, yada, yada. All those people in the that squadron are no longer there and the current commander from what I was told would like to have me back. I chose 2bLT for one sole person. To get as much info on my situation and how I can possibly rejoin. I was not 2B'd for termination. I did not give that a chance to go through. I resigned before that. If there was one thing I change in the past, I would be a more humble individual. I honestly cannot recall if I burned my uniforms. I think I gave them to Good Will w/o the tags etc. No worries. Thanks to all. Be safe.

P.S. I like the Golf Shirt too.

[MIKE]

The forum has a Private Message feature for a reason.