What can Active Duty wear on there CAP uniform?

[AlphaSigOU]

Great guide. Do you mind if I include it my TLC handouts?

Of course you may! 

[RiverAux]

Ah, if only it were that simple....

My favorite pet-peeve CAP regulation contradiction:

CAPM 39-1

5-4. Military Service Awards. Military service ribbons may be worn on the CAP AF-style uniform provided they were awarded in writing by competent military authority.

CAPR 39-3

3b. Decorations, ribbons, and badges authorized for wear on the US Air Force uniform may be worn on the CAP uniform when earned through qualification and awarded by competent authority to a member for service performed in any branch of the Armed Forces of the United States or its allies. (Foreign decorations, ribbons, badges, etc., awarded in writing to a member not in the Armed Forces of the United States may also be worn if approved by National Headquarters.)

Personally, I take 39-1 at its word:

This publication is the sole source for wear instructions and authorized items for various uniform combinations as prescribed within.

but, there is a legitimate source of confusion in CAP regs on the issue.

[DHollywood]

So here is a question.  Im not in CAP as of now but just wondering with the question about the MOVS.  What about the airforce Achievement Medal.  As i can read so far it says to Air Force personel is CAP included in that?  I think i would be a cool idea as for what I can tell there is no way to say good job other than to just say it in CAP.

Some RealAirForce® medals can be awarded to CAP members but as far as I know no current CAP member (who hasn't already earned the award by being current or former military) has been awarded one. I don't think there's ever been a procedure done up between the RealAirForce® and NHQ CAP (thru CAP-USAF) to do so.

The Coastie Auxies - ahem, the Coast Guard Auxiliary - does award RealCoastGuard® medals and ribbons on behalf of its parent service, but those occasions are rare. (Auxies, please correct me if I'm wrong.)

Point of order, it is incorrect to use the "Circled R" Registered Trademark symbol unless in connection with an actual registered trademark.  The humor is certainly understood however.

I would submit that a trip to the Grog might be warranted.....

[AlphaSigOU]

Point of order, it is incorrect to use the "Circled R" Registered Trademark symbol unless in connection with an actual registered trademark.  The humor is certainly understood however.

I would submit that a trip to the Grog might be warranted.....

Point taken, sir... [reports to Grog Bowl] 

[SarDragon]

Well, if you insist on not using ® , try this one: ™.   

[DHollywood]

That works !  TM indicates some level of claim of IP ownership in a mark, but does not convey registration.

[SarDragon]

What a party-pooper. 

[GaryJSO]

The standard for wear of Army badges (and pretty much anything else CAP authorizes on the AF-style uniforms) is what the AF authorizes AF members to wear on the same AF style uniform.  Compare table 6-5 in 39-1 with AFI 36-2903 table 5-2.  As I recall, the same table in the previous version of 39-1 was lifted directly out of the AFI 36-2903 that was out at the time.

Having said that, I wouldn't hold out much hope of the CAB getting approved by big AF.  The CIB/CFMB are Army Air Corps-era holdovers.  I saw at least a half-dozen AF troops in Iraq get CABs from Army leadership when I was over there last time.  But message traffic I've seen wearing my AF hat is that when the AF approved their spiffy new Combat Action Medal. those folks will get one of those pretty much upon showing the docs for their CAB.  And then have to leave those CABs and combat patches in the closet waiting for their retirement shadowbox.

Ain't saying it's fair, just that it is.

[Hawk200]

The standard for wear of Army badges (and pretty much anything else CAP authorizes on the AF-style uniforms) is what the AF authorizes AF members to wear on the same AF style uniform.  Compare table 6-5 in 39-1 with AFI 36-2903 table 5-2.  As I recall, the same table in the previous version of 39-1 was lifted directly out of the AFI 36-2903 that was out at the time.

Having said that, I wouldn't hold out much hope of the CAB getting approved by big AF.  The CIB/CFMB are Army Air Corps-era holdovers.  I saw at least a half-dozen AF troops in Iraq get CABs from Army leadership when I was over there last time.  But message traffic I've seen wearing my AF hat is that when the AF approved their spiffy new Combat Action Medal. those folks will get one of those pretty much upon showing the docs for their CAB.  And then have to leave those CABs and combat patches in the closet waiting for their retirement shadowbox.

Ain't saying it's fair, just that it is.

It may all depend on who on the CAP-USAF side looks at it. There are other Army badges that are permitted on the CAP uniform that came much later than the Army Air Corps period.

There is also the fact that we have a lot of former military personnel with these badges. That has probably been considered as well. Would kind of be a slap in the face to disallow it.

-2903 does actually permit the wear of some Army badges. The caveat is "only while permanently assigned and performing duties with other services".  I do know for a fact that there are Air Force component personnel that wear Rigger badges in the course of their duties that are not in conjunction with other services.

They may retain them, they may not. The Air Force has a reputation of double talk. They want to do joint work, but not recognize other branches awards. It creates some sticky issues.

[GaryJSO]

The rigger badge is not authorized AF wear except for folks in slots in Army units, but like the Air Assault Badge, some AF folks wear 'em regardless of the fact that they're not allowed to.  The provision allowing wear of army badges while supporting army units has been refined significantly: an IMC went out from HQ AF/A1 last year defining that as troops actually assigned to Army units, like TACPs and Combat Weather guys actually assigned to Army (not Joint, Army) commands.

I understand people's desires to wear the symbols of what they've done; I'd like to wear my MNF-I patch on the right sleeve of my BDUs like the Army guys I served with over there do.  But the AFIs say I can't, so I don't.  When you start picking out the rules you want to obey and the ones you think are silly, you're edging toward a slippery slope.

I just noticed, the AF actually restricted wear of the CIB and CMB is the 2006 36-2903.  It used to be authorized for anybody who earned the CIB or CMB to wear it on the AF uniform; a leftover from AAC days.  All the new-fangled stuff (Air Assault, Pathfinder, etc.) was restricted to AF guys working in Army units.  Now you have to take it off the CIB or CMB when you aren't assigned to an Army unit.  Again, that's generally only battlefield airman, like TACPs, Combat Weather and some Special Tactics folks.  I guess A1 is leveling the standard.

Not sure what your point is about joint work requiring people to wear the other guys badges.  What is needed for joint duty is joint training and vocabulary; what we wear to work is meaningless in that context, beyond presenting a professional appearance and meeting the member's service's standards.

[afgeo4]

What do Army regs say about wear of USAF occupational badges and USAF specific tabs like SERE Instructor, etc by soldiers?

[Stonewall]

That ghey "scroll" that SERE Specialists wear?  It's like the worst looking scroll.  As I understand, it's only worn while in the SERE career field, performing SERE Specialist duties.  Not a permanent award.

The Army would not recognize the ugly SERE Specialist arch/scroll.

Not sure about other badges, but I have seen an Army dude wear AF aircrew wings and medical badge.  Not saying he's right, but I've seen it.

[hatentx]

in AR 670-1 29–13. Badges authorized for wear on Army uniforms
A badge is awarded to an individual for identification purposes, or for attaining a special skill or proficiency. The
criteria for the award of Army badges are contained in AR 600–8–22, and in NGR 601–1 for Army National Guard
Recruiting and Retention identification badges. Most combat and special skill badges are available in full, miniature,
and dress miniature sizes. The following badges are authorized for wear on the Army uniform.
a. Military badges awarded by the Department of Army, U.S. Air Force, Navy, Coast Guard, and the Director of
Civilian Marksmanship. (See para g, below, for additional information.)
b. Badges awarded by the Regular Army and Navy Union, and by the Army and Navy Union of the United States.
c. Marksmanship badges pertaining to national matches and approved by HQDA. Marksmanship badges from other
U.S. Services are not authorized for wear on the Army uniform.
d. Badges of civic and quasi-military societies of the United States, and international organizations of a military
nature. These include badges of organizations originally composed of members who served in a U.S. force during the
Revolutionary War; the War of 1812; the Mexican War; the Civil War; the Spanish-American War; the Philippine
Insurrection; and the Chinese Relief Expedition of 1900. The badges are worn only while the wearer is actually
attending meetings or functions of such organizations, or on occasions of ceremony. Personnel will not wear these
badges to and from such meetings or events.
e. Badges awarded by friendly foreign nations in recognition of military activities, and as authorized by AR
600–8–22.
f. Tabs indicating marksmanship or special skill. The Sapper, Ranger, Special Forces and President's Hundred tabs
are the only tabs authorized for permanent wear. Tabs such as Airborne, Honor Guard, Mountain, and Pershing are
authorized for temporary wear only. These tabs are considered an integral part of the shoulder sleeve insignia and
soldiers are not authorized to wear them when they are reassigned from the organization that prescribed wear of the
shoulder sleeve insignia with tab.
g. In accordance with AR 600–8–22, personnel must obtain authority from HQDA before wearing badges on the
uniform that were awarded by other U.S. Services, or by the Director of Civilian Marksmanship. The following rules
apply when wearing badges from other U.S. Services.
(1) Military combat or special skill badges awarded by other U.S. Services that are similar to U.S. Army combat or
special skill badges are worn on the Army uniform in the same manner as U.S. Army combat or special skill badges,
only if no Army badges are authorized for wear in the same group. For example, a soldier who had no group 3 badges
could wear aviation badges awarded by the U.S. Air Force (USAF) as group 3 badges (as Army Aviation and Aviator
badges are worn). However, if the individual was authorized to wear an Army badge in group 3, the soldier would not
be authorized to wear the group 3 badge from the USAF.
(2) Skill badges awarded by other U.S. Services that are not similar to Army skill badges are worn as group 4
badges.
(3) Badges from other U.S. Services that indicate career fields are not authorized for wear, such as USAF medical
insignia, or badges used to identify the duty, function, or classification of the wearer. Some examples are USAF fire
protection, air training command instructor, security police, or the Naval aviation warfare specialist.
(4) Personnel will not wear badges awarded by other U.S. Services which, because of size or configuration, cannot
be worn as group 4 badges. Subdued embroidered or metal skill badges authorized for wear by another U.S. Service,
and that are authorized for wear on the Army uniform, may be worn on utility uniforms in the same manner as
prescribed for Army badges.


Basicly from what i get from this is that HQDA will aprove all badges from other services unless there is an army badge that is warn and the same badge in another service (ie. Air Force Aviators Badge and the Army Aviotor badge or marksmanship badges)  So as i see it wear them all.   I have seen all sorta things on Army Uniforms from Submarine Badges to AirForce SP badges.

[Stonewall]

Basicly from what i get from this is that HQDA will aprove all badges from other services unless there is an army badge that is warn and the same badge in another service (ie. Air Force Aviators Badge and the Army Aviotor badge or marksmanship badges)  So as i see it wear them all.   I have seen all sorta things on Army Uniforms from Submarine Badges to AirForce SP badges.

Right, but the "SERE SPECIALIST" arch/scroll is not a permanent award.  Along with their green berets, they are only worn while peforming the duties as a SERE Specialist and serving in that career field.  If they switched to, let's say, Intel, they'd lose the SERE scroll, beret, but keep the "Operations Support" functions badge.

[GaryJSO]

The Army really loosened up on wear of AF stuff on the Army uniforms in their last update to AF 670-1.  When I reviewed it a few years back, the Army considered AF function badges as career identifiers, not qualification badges, and they couldn't be worn.  As of the last version, AF function badges are approved for wear on Army uniforms

[Hawk200]

The Army really loosened up on wear of AF stuff on the Army uniforms in their last update to AF 670-1.  When I reviewed it a few years back, the Army considered AF function badges as career identifiers, not qualification badges, and they couldn't be worn.  As of the last version, AF function badges are approved for wear on Army uniforms

No, they're not. An excerpt from the 3 Feb 05 edition of 670-1:

"(3) Badges from other U.S. Services that indicate career fields are not authorized for wear, such as USAF medical insignia, or badges used to identify the duty, function, or classification of the wearer. Some examples are USAF fire protection, air training command instructor, security police,or the Naval aviation warfare specialist."

Unless there has been another release of 670-1 that I'm not aware of, or there has been some kind of letter changing that, they aren't authorized.

I have seen Air Force badges worn on Army uniforms, in the Army Guard mostly. Not in compliance with the reg, but it's done.

[GaryJSO]

If that is their intent, they picked bad examples.  ALL the the AF badges list by name as prohibited in that paragraph of AR 670-1 are ones even the AF says you can only wear when you are actually serving in the position, and you have to take off even the AF uniform when you take another assignment.  They are referred to as duty identification badges.  When I was an AF cop, I wore both a master Law Enforcement function badge (the one worn above the ribbons, looks kinda like a mater parachutist badge) AND the Security Police badge (the one that looks like a civilian police badge, worn on the right breast pocket).  When I was assigned to a non-cop position, I kept my LE function badge, but had to stop wearing my SP duty badge as long as I was in a non-cop AFSC.

I only bothered to notice because I worked with an AD MP from 18 MP BDE in Iraq, he wore the LE senior badge.  Got it when he was on the joint LE det in San Antonio; seems they sent him to the USAF 7-level SF course while, and the SF Academy awarded him the function badge.  It didn't seem to bother any of the covey of anal-retentive AD Army officers running around HQ CJTF-7.  And they bothered pretty easy...

[Hawk200]

If that is their intent, they picked bad examples.  ALL the the AF badges list by name as prohibited in that paragraph of AR 670-1 are ones even the AF says you can only wear when you are actually serving in the position, and you have to take off even the AF uniform when you take another assignment.  They are referred to as duty identification badges.  When I was an AF cop, I wore both a master Law Enforcement function badge (the one worn above the ribbons, looks kinda like a mater parachutist badge) AND the Security Police badge (the one that looks like a civilian police badge, worn on the right breast pocket).  When I was assigned to a non-cop position, I kept my LE function badge, but had to stop wearing my SP duty badge as long as I was in a non-cop AFSC.

Quite familiar with those rules, I wore an Air Force uniform for ten years active. Having come from the Air Force, the restriction listed in 670-1 makes perfect sense to me. If it's a career field badge, it's a No-Go. Something like a set of wings (aircrew or jump) is legal, with some restrictions.

I've seen the spings in black metal, apparently designed for the ACU. Probably limited to those Army personnel currently working a CSP billet. That badge has a different award criteria than a basic space/missile badge, although I'm not familiar with how those criteria apply to Army personnel.

I only bothered to notice because I worked with an AD MP from 18 MP BDE in Iraq, he wore the LE senior badge.  Got it when he was on the joint LE det in San Antonio; seems they sent him to the USAF 7-level SF course while, and the SF Academy awarded him the function badge.  It didn't seem to bother any of the covey of anal-retentive AD Army officers running around HQ CJTF-7.  And they bothered pretty easy...

A lot of people don't challenge because they don't know better.  Just because someone doesn't challenge something, does not mean it's legtimately permitted. It just means person in question is getting over.

[jasonmc]

Yeah I wish I could wear my Fire Protection Badge still