Quote from: MajorChuck on October 04, 2007, 12:43:35 PM
Keep the CSU.  But Modify it.
Grey slides on service coat
3 line grey name badge and slides on Aviator shirt.
loose the silver braid on coat.

Then We will look as close in uniform as possible.

eliminate older Corprate Uni Except for Polo/Grey slacks.

I usually stay out of uniform threads, but I will second this idea.  It needs to be set up so  that all insignia that work for the AF uniform will also work on the CSU and be worn in the same manner.  Possible exception would be keeping the CAP cutouts on the service coat and U.S. insignia on the AF style coat, but I'm not too concerned about that one either way.

Right now, a group together with members wearing the AF style and the CSU looks like a meeting of 2 different organizations.

2 different organizations?

With the many uniform choices we have, our meetings look like NATO conferences!

At our recent Squadron meeting we had a prospective Senior Member show up and he asked about uniforms, I glanced around the room and saw AF blues, TPU sans jacket, white and grays, and golf shirt combos.  I had to explain the differences as well as about the two different BDUs and the two different Flight Suits. 

The prospective member is within AF standards, so essentially he could choose from any of them.   I truly hope that National does something about it, it's confusing even to me and I've read all the interim change letters.   Well thought out changes to the Corporate uniform should change its designation to the ACU (Amy Courter Uniform).

NATO conference, okay, that's funny.  At least we get more stuff done.

You know, we actually have an opportunity here.

The USAF is scrapping the McPeak-3-Button uniform in the near future.  The new uniform will be called the "Hap Arnold Heritage Uniform." and will feature a 4-button front, traditional military lapels, and a belt around the jacket.  It will be an AF blue version of the old "Pinks and greens" AAF uniform, basically.

Hap Arnold is as much a part of OUR heritage as he is part of the Air Force's.  Hap Arnold's decision to arm CAP planes was the key command decision in winning the battle on the coasts, and also was the decision that brought us into the Air Force as an auxiliary. Were it not for that decision, we probably would not exist as an organization today.

As it was, CAP planes simply overwhelmed the U-Boats, and forced them to withdraw beyond our range.  That meant they could not attack at heavy ship traffic points near our ports, and made the convoy tactics succesful.

CAP won the battle along the Atlantic and Gulf casts, and helped win the Battle of the Atlantic.

Therefore, when the Air Force goes to the Arnold Heritage uniform, why not have CAP go to a corporate version of the Arnold Heritage uniform?  Make it sufficiently different so that the AF would consider it a corporate uniform, but similar enough so people know we are on the same team, and celebrate the same heritage.

And it would be for all officers.  One team, one uniform.

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on October 05, 2007, 09:26:31 PMTherefore, when the Air Force goes to the Arnold Heritage uniform, why not have CAP go to a corporate version of the Arnold Heritage uniform?  Make it sufficiently different so that the AF would consider it a corporate uniform, but similar enough so people know we are on the same team, and celebrate the same heritage.

And it would be for all officers.  One team, one uniform.

Great idea, Kach.  But please, no silver sleeve braid, blue AF officer epaulets, blue plastic nametag or metal officer rank insignia.  Just grey CAP officer epaulets, grey CAP nametag, and the standard blue officer sleeve braid.  Like you said, one team, one uniform. 

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on October 05, 2007, 09:26:31 PM
You know, we actually have an opportunity here.

The USAF is scrapping the McPeak-3-Button uniform in the near future.  The new uniform will be called the "Hap Arnold Heritage Uniform." and will feature a 4-button front, traditional military lapels, and a belt around the jacket.  It will be an AF blue version of the old "Pinks and greens" AAF uniform, basically.

Hap Arnold is as much a part of OUR heritage as he is part of the Air Force's.  Hap Arnold's decision to arm CAP planes was the key command decision in winning the battle on the coasts, and also was the decision that brought us into the Air Force as an auxiliary. Were it not for that decision, we probably would not exist as an organization today.

As it was, CAP planes simply overwhelmed the U-Boats, and forced them to withdraw beyond our range.  That meant they could not attack at heavy ship traffic points near our ports, and made the convoy tactics succesful.

CAP won the battle along the Atlantic and Gulf casts, and helped win the Battle of the Atlantic.

Therefore, when the Air Force goes to the Arnold Heritage uniform, why not have CAP go to a corporate version of the Arnold Heritage uniform?  Make it sufficiently different so that the AF would consider it a corporate uniform, but similar enough so people know we are on the same team, and celebrate the same heritage.

And it would be for all officers.  One team, one uniform.

Amen.  Only can we fix my pet peeve?   Slip on Epaulets???  I'd be perfectly happy to wear CAP cutouts on the epaulets, but the sleeves look retarded, no even worse than retarted, like some bad Hollywood B-movie uniform put together by people who know no better, and don't care enough to do research.

Quote from: Falshrmjgr on October 05, 2007, 10:32:56 PM
Amen.  Only can we fix my pet peeve?   Slip on Epaulets???  I'd be perfectly happy to wear CAP cutouts on the epaulets, but the sleeves look retarded, no even worse than retarded, like some bad Hollywood B-movie uniform put together by people who know no better, and don't care enough to do research.

Well, the epaulets may look retarded (in my opinion, any color other than blue is retarded), but at least the corporate service dress uniform would match the AF blue  service dress uniform worn by CAP personnel.  What CAP needs is uniformity when it comes to the dress uniforms. 

Quote from: ♠1 on October 05, 2007, 10:36:58 PM

Quote from: Falshrmjgr on October 05, 2007, 10:32:56 PM
Amen.  Only can we fix my pet peeve?   Slip on Epaulets???  I'd be perfectly happy to wear CAP cutouts on the epaulets, but the sleeves look retarded, no even worse than retarded, like some bad Hollywood B-movie uniform put together by people who know no better, and don't care enough to do research.

Well, the epaulets may look retarded (in my opinion, any color other than blue is retarded), but at least the corporate service dress uniform would match the AF blue  service dress uniform worn by CAP personnel.  What CAP needs is uniformity when it comes to the dress uniforms. 

So how about normal pin-on rank, and CAP cutouts.  That *should* be distinctive enough.  (I've never liked the US cutouts, wearing the US cutout has traditionally been to show the source of rank.  US on Disk = Enlisted Military US Cutout = Commisioned Military.  CAP Cutout = CAP Officer.  Simple no?

Quote from: Falshrmjgr on October 05, 2007, 10:44:30 PMSo how about normal pin-on rank, and CAP cutouts.  That *should* be distinctive enough.

Ideally, that's how it would be on both the Air Force and corporate uniforms.  However, if the Air Force won't allow it on the Air Force uniform, why should it be allowed on the corporate uniform?  The goal here is uniformity.  Right now, when CAP members in both the Air Force and CAP corporate service dress uniforms congregate, it looks like a meeting of two different organizations.  Something needs to be done about that. 

Quote from: Falshrmjgr on October 05, 2007, 10:44:30 PM(I've never liked the US cutouts, wearing the US cutout has traditionally been to show the source of rank.  US on Disk = Enlisted Military US Cutout = Commisioned Military.  CAP Cutout = CAP Officer.  Simple no?

I agree with you there.  SDF's are more a part of the military than CAP is, yet they don't get the privilige of wearing the "U.S." cutouts like CAP does.  For years, CAP officers wore the "CAP" cutouts on the service dress coat, and I'm not sure why a change was made to the "U.S." cutouts worn today.  The "CAP" cutouts are nice and distinctive.  Here's what I'd like to see:

--"CAP" cutouts on the Air Force and CAP Corporate service dress coats
--large metal officer rank insignia on the Air Force and CAP Corporate service dress coat

The Air Force will probably never allow it, though (and after Tony Pineda's letter to Congress, may make CAP wear lime green epaulets).   

Quote from: ♠1 on October 06, 2007, 12:24:27 AM
The Air Force will probably never allow it, though (and after Tony Pineda's letter to Congress, may make CAP wear lime green epaulets).   

Hot Pink

Although actually, the SDF's are great examples.  The source of their commisions are the state, ergo, no US.

Quote from: Falshrmjgr on October 06, 2007, 12:27:20 AMAlthough actually, the SDF's are great examples.  The source of their commisions are the state, ergo, no US.

Right, and CAP officers aren't even commissioned... they're appointed (and by CAP, not the United States).  So why the "U.S." cutouts? 

The source of officer appointment is CAP, so "CAP" cutouts are the most appropriate for the CAP uniform.   

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on October 05, 2007, 09:26:31 PM
You know, we actually have an opportunity here.

The USAF is scrapping the McPeak-3-Button uniform in the near future.  The new uniform will be called the "Hap Arnold Heritage Uniform." and will feature a 4-button front, traditional military lapels, and a belt around the jacket.  It will be an AF blue version of the old "Pinks and greens" AAF uniform, basically.

Hap Arnold is as much a part of OUR heritage as he is part of the Air Force's.  Hap Arnold's decision to arm CAP planes was the key command decision in winning the battle on the coasts, and also was the decision that brought us into the Air Force as an auxiliary. Were it not for that decision, we probably would not exist as an organization today.

As it was, CAP planes simply overwhelmed the U-Boats, and forced them to withdraw beyond our range.  That meant they could not attack at heavy ship traffic points near our ports, and made the convoy tactics succesful.

CAP won the battle along the Atlantic and Gulf casts, and helped win the Battle of the Atlantic.

Therefore, when the Air Force goes to the Arnold Heritage uniform, why not have CAP go to a corporate version of the Arnold Heritage uniform?  Make it sufficiently different so that the AF would consider it a corporate uniform, but similar enough so people know we are on the same team, and celebrate the same heritage.

And it would be for all officers.  One team, one uniform.

Sir.

Isn't that exactly what we did with the TPU? A Corporate version of the Air Force Service uniform?

Quote from: ♠1 on October 05, 2007, 10:36:58 PM

Quote from: Falshrmjgr on October 05, 2007, 10:32:56 PM
Amen.  Only can we fix my pet peeve?   Slip on Epaulets???  I'd be perfectly happy to wear CAP cutouts on the epaulets, but the sleeves look retarded, no even worse than retarded, like some bad Hollywood B-movie uniform put together by people who know no better, and don't care enough to do research.

Well, the epaulets may look retarded (in my opinion, any color other than blue is retarded), but at least the corporate service dress uniform would match the AF blue  service dress uniform worn by CAP personnel.  What CAP needs is uniformity when it comes to the dress uniforms. 

Sir, is 'retarded' the word you really want to use there in reference to a UNIFORM ITEM ?

Quote from: JThemann on October 06, 2007, 01:41:33 AM

Quote from: ♠1 on October 05, 2007, 10:36:58 PM

Quote from: Falshrmjgr on October 05, 2007, 10:32:56 PM
Amen.  Only can we fix my pet peeve?   Slip on Epaulets???  I'd be perfectly happy to wear CAP cutouts on the epaulets, but the sleeves look retarded, no even worse than retarded, like some bad Hollywood B-movie uniform put together by people who know no better, and don't care enough to do research.

Well, the epaulets may look retarded (in my opinion, any color other than blue is retarded), but at least the corporate service dress uniform would match the AF blue  service dress uniform worn by CAP personnel.  What CAP needs is uniformity when it comes to the dress uniforms. 

Sir, is 'retarded' the word you really want to use there in reference to a UNIFORM ITEM ?

Ahhh... no offense intended toward the mentally handicapped.  You are quite correct, the term I am looking for is more akin to "criminally stupid."   To be honest, I don't actually have much problem with the TPU minus the coat.  The aviator shirt w/ Air Force pants, et al looks fine, although I think the embroidered CAP on the epaulet sleeve is sufficient  enough to forgo the gray and stick to an Air Force shade of blue.  (But after maroon, who can complain right?)

Quote from: ♠1 on October 06, 2007, 12:33:18 AM

Quote from: Falshrmjgr on October 06, 2007, 12:27:20 AMAlthough actually, the SDF's are great examples.  The source of their commisions are the state, ergo, no US.

Right, and CAP officers aren't even commissioned... they're appointed (and by CAP, not the United States).  So why the "U.S." cutouts? 

The source of officer appointment is CAP, so "CAP" cutouts are the most appropriate for the CAP uniform.   

OK, this may be "urban legend" so be warned.  I was told by our then Wing CC that the US was added to the CAP service coat (AF Style) by order of General Fogleman (sp?), who was then USAF Chief of Staff.  He did this as a way to recognize CAP as part of the AF ("total force" you know).

Disclaimer:   I was only told this once by my Wing CC, and have never heard it again from any other source, so I can't confirm it is accurate.  But having said that, I do trust this former Wing CC, and IIRC he told me he heard it at the NB meeting where it was announced.

Quote from: Falshrmjgr on October 05, 2007, 10:44:30 PM
So how about normal pin-on rank, and CAP cutouts.  That *should* be distinctive enough.  (I've never liked the US cutouts, wearing the US cutout has traditionally been to show the source of rank.  US on Disk = Enlisted Military US Cutout = Commisioned Military.  CAP Cutout = CAP Officer.  Simple no?

That's exactly how it used to be on our Service Coats, prior to the infamous maroon shoulder marks.  The pin-on rank was taken away from us at roughly the same time the AF blue shoulder marks were taken from our shirts.  The maroon shoulder marks were mandated to wear on "all outer garments" (careless wording which actually lead to a member showing up with maroon epaulets on his field jacket!!).

Just for you uniform historians, briefly there was a maroon CAP "loop" that was a narrow band of maroon material with silver edges and "CAP" embroidered on it.  This was to be worn on the Service Coat with the pin on rank insignia.  It lasted only a brief time and was replaced by the mandate that the shirt epaulets were to be worn on the Service Coat in lieu of the pin-on rank.  This in itself (besides looking horrible) was not easily accomplished since the shirt shoulder marks were designed to slip over the narrow epaulet on the shirt, not the wider ones on the coat.

The bottom line is that it was a horrible time for all of us.  To drift just slightly more off-topic (then I'll behave, I promise), we were holding a Wing Commander's Call at a restaurant once when I was Squadron CC.  We had a salad bar lunch as part of our meeting.  So we all went through the line together with our maroon shoulder marks on.  Once our meeting began, our Wing CC told us that he overheard some folks in the restaurant say, "The Salvation Army must be having a meeting here."   

I never thought I'd say this, but I'm not seeing an alternative.

Much as I like to wear the USAF uniform, and I consider it an honor to do so, I think that we should ALL be in ONE uniform.  This will mean that one of two possible outcomes must happen:

1.  The USAF will have to compromise on weight, and permit chubby rascals to wear the USAF uniform with distinctive insignia, and CAP members will have to compromise on grooming, and lose their beards.  Then we can all wear the USAF uniform.  This is SO not likely to happen.

2.  The entire CAP officer corps should transition to a corporate uniform, which is styled to match the USAF uniform, but clearly different enough to set CAP officers apart from USAF officers.

To Thiemann:  Yes, this WAS the goal of the TPU.  Unfortunately, the TPU ended up looking more Navy than Air Force.

That's why I said we have a new opportunity to fix this uniform thing once and for all when the AF transitions to the Arnold Heritage uniform.

I don't want to get bogged down in details about the uniform.  I'd rather like to see if my idea is acceptable as a solution to the problem of having 117 authorized uniforms for CAP.

QuoteAs it was, CAP planes simply overwhelmed the U-Boats, and forced them to withdraw beyond our range.  That meant they could not attack at heavy ship traffic points near our ports, and made the convoy tactics succesful.

CAP won the battle along the Atlantic and Gulf casts, and helped win the Battle of the Atlantic.

As big of a fan of CAP as I am, I think this is a major league stetch.

And, to return to the topic,

Quote1.  The USAF will have to compromise on weight, and permit chubby rascals to wear the USAF uniform with distinctive insignia, and CAP members will have to compromise on grooming, and lose their beards.  Then we can all wear the USAF uniform.  This is SO not likely to happen.

Not impossible, especially given the example of the CG Aux, which wears almost indistinguishable uniforms with no specific weight requirements.  Perhaps since the CG Aux is actually pretty well integrated into major CG programs they're more willing to cut some slack on this issue.  In other words, we're useful enough to them, that they don't really care what we're wearing.

Perhaps the AF will eventually realize that while CAP isn't essential to any of their operations, it would be better for the public to see us in AF-style uniforms and get what benefit they can of CAP-associated public relations than be a stickler about what we're wearing, especially when 90% of them never see a CAP person during their entire career. 

If I am not mistaken, the Heritage Uniform's epaulets are sewn at the edge with a "cross pattern," one won't be able to slide shoulder marks on them, at least, not normal sized ones.

Quote from: RiverAux on October 06, 2007, 03:34:27 AM

QuoteAs it was, CAP planes simply overwhelmed the U-Boats, and forced them to withdraw beyond our range.  That meant they could not attack at heavy ship traffic points near our ports, and made the convoy tactics succesful.

CAP won the battle along the Atlantic and Gulf casts, and helped win the Battle of the Atlantic.

As big of a fan of CAP as I am, I think this is a major league stetch.

And, to return to the topic,

Quote1.  The USAF will have to compromise on weight, and permit chubby rascals to wear the USAF uniform with distinctive insignia, and CAP members will have to compromise on grooming, and lose their beards.  Then we can all wear the USAF uniform.  This is SO not likely to happen.

Not impossible, especially given the example of the CG Aux, which wears almost indistinguishable uniforms with no specific weight requirements.  Perhaps since the CG Aux is actually pretty well integrated into major CG programs they're more willing to cut some slack on this issue.  In other words, we're useful enough to them, that they don't really care what we're wearing.

Perhaps the AF will eventually realize that while CAP isn't essential to any of their operations, it would be better for the public to see us in AF-style uniforms and get what benefit they can of CAP-associated public relations than be a stickler about what we're wearing, especially when 90% of them never see a CAP person during their entire career. 

Actually, CAP is the force that turned the battle along the coasts.

We did not fly armed patrols until, I think, April of 1943.  By July the U-Boats were not anywhere along the coasts.  They had moved out to sea, and CAP planes were re-directed to other missions.

CAP attacked 57 subs, and sank two.  This is impressive only of one considers that we only were in the battle as an armed participant for about 3 months, the last month of which we had basicly no enemy contact, since they had already pulled out of range.  That means there were 57 attacks and 2 sinkings (known) in about 2 months.  That's an attack on a U-Boat, somewhere, every day, on average.

That is a tempo of operations that the U-Boat commanders had not eperienced.  The reason for this success was simply numbers.  We had hundreds of little planes, but only a handful of big warbirds.  When the little planes could succesfully attack, the U-Boats had to withdraw out of range.

I don't know where you got your pre-commissioning training, River, but at Army OCS I learned that if you force an enemy to retreat from his position, you put that battle in the "Win " column!