Pushups = Hazing ??

Started by abysmal, March 09, 2005, 12:05:53 AM

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abysmal

Last night I was told that under absolutely NO conditions can cadets, or elements or flights ever be required to do pushups (with the sole exception of the PT test) as this is now considered HAZING?

Is this written in black and white in one of the regs?

And if so, what on earth has happened to CAP to bring this on?
I seem to recall doing LOADS of pushups many years ago when I was a cadet, especially at encampments.
2LT Christopher M. Parrett
[red]Deputy Commander of Cadets, Cadet Programs Officer[/red]
London Bridge Composite Squadron 501
SWR-AZ-112,  Lake Havasu City, Arizona

abysmal

Found my own answer..
====================

Push-ups, laps, and other forms of exercise may not be used as a form of discipline in CAP. CAPR 52-10 explains this in section A3. It doesn't matter if the cadet officer, or whoever assigns push-ups, does it with the junior cadet -- exercise as a form of punishment is not authorized in any way. See Paragraph 1c (below)of CAP REGULATION 52-10 (E) CAP CADET PROTECTION POLICY. This regulation is the official policy on cadet protection for the Civil Air Patrol (CAP) and describes CAP's policies concerning the procedures for identifying, reporting, and responding to cadet abuse situations.

Paragraph 1c. Hazing. Hazing is defined as any conduct whereby someone causes another to suffer or to be exposed to any activity that is cruel, abusive, humiliating, oppressive, demeaning, or harmful. Actual or implied consent to acts of hazing does not eliminate the culpability of the perpetrator. Examples of hazing include using exercise as punishment or assigning remedial training that does not fit the deficiency (such as making a cadet run laps for having poorly shined shoes). Hazing, as defined in this policy, is considered a form of physical abuse and the reporting procedures for physical abuse must be followed.

Also see CAPR 52-16 CADET PROGRAM MANAGEMENT , 1-3b1 "Prohibitions"
b. Physical Fitness. Upon joining CAP, each cadet will initially be assigned to one of the physical fitness
categories defined in paragraph 1-7. Each cadet is expected to exercise regularly and participate in the unit's physical fitness program. During each achievement and milestone award (see paragraph 2-3b), all cadets in physical fitness Categories I, II, and III must take and pass the Cadet Physical Fitness Test (CPFT) events required of their physical fitness category, as described in CAPP 52-18, Cadet Physical Fitness Program. Commanders will also provide regular time on the training calendar for fitness training; simply administering the CPFT is not sufficient.
1) Prohibitions. Physical exercise in the Cadet Program will be used only to improve cadets' physical fitness while increasing confidence, teamwork, and determination. Fitness training will not be used as a form of punishment or as a vehicle to teach remedial discipline.
================================

But can anyone offer me some history on this.
For as long as I can remember doing pushups has ALWAYS been one of the simplest forms of re-inforcement to help anyone learn something in the military.

When did it become "Hazing" ?
2LT Christopher M. Parrett
[red]Deputy Commander of Cadets, Cadet Programs Officer[/red]
London Bridge Composite Squadron 501
SWR-AZ-112,  Lake Havasu City, Arizona

arajca

It became hazing when it was abused solely to punish cadets for something they were not instructed on.

When it became the defacto policy to drop cadets instead of informing them what the did wrong and how to correct it, then drop them.

When senior cadets and senior members started doing "drive by drops". Walk past a group of cadets and drop them for no reason.

In short, when push ups were abused.

Greg

Quote from: abysmal on March 09, 2005, 12:05:53 AM
Last night I was told that under absolutely NO conditions can cadets, or elements or flights ever be required to do pushups (with the sole exception of the PT test) as this is now considered HAZING?

Is this written in black and white in one of the regs?

And if so, what on earth has happened to CAP to bring this on?
I seem to recall doing LOADS of pushups many years ago when I was a cadet, especially at encampments.

CAP now is very different than CAP then.......
C/Maj Greg(ory) Boyajian, CAP
Air Victory Museum Composite Squadron

abysmal

Quote from: arajca on March 09, 2005, 12:26:16 AM
It became hazing when it was abused solely to punish cadets for something they were not instructed on.

When it became the defacto policy to drop cadets instead of informing them what the did wrong and how to correct it, then drop them.

When senior cadets and senior members started doing "drive by drops". Walk past a group of cadets and drop them for no reason.

In short, when push ups were abused.

Any idea of how many years back this change took place?
2LT Christopher M. Parrett
[red]Deputy Commander of Cadets, Cadet Programs Officer[/red]
London Bridge Composite Squadron 501
SWR-AZ-112,  Lake Havasu City, Arizona

abysmal

Quote from: Greg on March 09, 2005, 12:28:29 AM
CAP now is very different than CAP then.......

So I keep noticing each week!!
2LT Christopher M. Parrett
[red]Deputy Commander of Cadets, Cadet Programs Officer[/red]
London Bridge Composite Squadron 501
SWR-AZ-112,  Lake Havasu City, Arizona

Horn229

When did it become hazing?

Well, my old squadron quit doing 'em in late '98-99, and I recall hearing that it offically became hazing in the early '90's.
NICHOLAS A. HORN, Senior Member, CAP

dwb

Quote from: Horn229 on March 09, 2005, 01:17:54 AMWhen did it become hazing?

Well, my old squadron quit doing 'em in late '98-99, and I recall hearing that it offically became hazing in the early '90's.

Try early 1980s.  Before the cadets of today were even born!

Push-ups are perfectly acceptable as part of a scheduled, organized PT session.  They are not acceptable as punishment.  That's about all there is to it, really.

SarDragon

Quote from: justin_bailey on March 09, 2005, 02:16:38 AM[backquote redacted] Try early 1980s.  Before the cadets of today were even born!

Push-ups are perfectly acceptable as part of a scheduled, organized PT session.  They are not acceptable as punishment.  That's about all there is to it, really.

I guess it depended on your wing. NJWG strongly discouraged that behaviour as far back as the 60s, and and MEWG in the 70s. Guess we were ahead of our time back then.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

abysmal

Quote from: SarDragon on March 09, 2005, 08:42:32 AM
Quote from: justin_bailey on March 09, 2005, 02:16:38 AM[backquote redacted] Try early 1980s.  Before the cadets of today were even born!

Push-ups are perfectly acceptable as part of a scheduled, organized PT session.  They are not acceptable as punishment.  That's about all there is to it, really.

I guess it depended on your wing. NJWG strongly discouraged that behaviour as far back as the 60s, and and MEWG in the 70s. Guess we were ahead of our time back then.

I was a cadet back in 1979-81 and it seems like it was pretty much the norm in California back then.
2LT Christopher M. Parrett
[red]Deputy Commander of Cadets, Cadet Programs Officer[/red]
London Bridge Composite Squadron 501
SWR-AZ-112,  Lake Havasu City, Arizona

Cmdbuddy

Quote from: Greg on March 09, 2005, 12:28:29 AM
CAP now is very different than CAP then.......

Unfortunately...
Christie Ducote, Capt, CAP

abysmal

I could not agree more.
I can not imagine what would happen to Basic Training if the Military could not use such a simple tool as the "Front Leaning Rest".
2LT Christopher M. Parrett
[red]Deputy Commander of Cadets, Cadet Programs Officer[/red]
London Bridge Composite Squadron 501
SWR-AZ-112,  Lake Havasu City, Arizona

MIKE

Quote from: Cmdbuddy on March 10, 2005, 09:55:11 PM
Quote from: Greg on March 09, 2005, 12:28:29 AM
CAP now is very different than CAP then.......

Unfortunately...

Would it make you feel better if someone ordered you to "Drop!"?  

Front leaning rest... Move!  :)
Mike Johnston

arajca

Quote from: abysmal on March 10, 2005, 10:35:29 PM
I could not agree more.
I can not imagine what would happen to Basic Training if the Military could not use such a simple tool as the "Front Leaning Rest".

One very important point to keep in mind when attepting to compare military training to CAP training - military instructors spend a long time in training before facing students. That includes when and when not to use pt for discilpine. Drill sgts - from what I was told - spend a year learning how train recruits before being assigned to a training unit. They then spend several months as "cadre" observing and assisting experienced drill sgts before they are considered sufficiently trained to train recruits. Also, with very few exceptions, recruits are not dropped for making a mistake unless they have been training on the correct way to do something. Even then, the recruit is told the correct way to do whatever they did incorrectly.

CAP does not have the ability to do this depth of training. As a result, CAP members have misused the push-up for discipline.

abysmal

Can't argue with a word of what you said.
Its the truth and it appears it was abused.
nevertheless we have lost a very effective training tool.
2LT Christopher M. Parrett
[red]Deputy Commander of Cadets, Cadet Programs Officer[/red]
London Bridge Composite Squadron 501
SWR-AZ-112,  Lake Havasu City, Arizona

arajca

Quote from: abysmal on March 10, 2005, 11:16:54 PM
Can't argue with a word of what you said.
Its the truth and it appears it was abused.
nevertheless we have lost a very effective training tool.

WIWAC, it wasn't an effective training tool because of how it was misused. "Drive by Drops", failing to inform the cadet how to correct the offending action, etc. Instead, we have been forced to develop appropriate corrective actions. Or at least some did.

Greg

I think the bottom line is that push-ups were not only abused, but they don't teach Cadet Snuffy to shine his boots better, or how to iron his uniform, or how to salute an officer, etc.
C/Maj Greg(ory) Boyajian, CAP
Air Victory Museum Composite Squadron

abysmal

Quote from: Greg on March 11, 2005, 03:43:54 AM
I think the bottom line is that push-ups were not only abused, but they don't teach Cadet Snuffy to shine his boots better, or how to iron his uniform, or how to salute an officer, etc.

Snuffy always was a "Problem" Cadet though.....
2LT Christopher M. Parrett
[red]Deputy Commander of Cadets, Cadet Programs Officer[/red]
London Bridge Composite Squadron 501
SWR-AZ-112,  Lake Havasu City, Arizona

Greg

Quote from: abysmal on March 11, 2005, 03:10:43 PM
Quote from: Greg on March 11, 2005, 03:43:54 AM
I think the bottom line is that push-ups were not only abused, but they don't teach Cadet Snuffy to shine his boots better, or how to iron his uniform, or how to salute an officer, etc.

Snuffy always was a "Problem" Cadet though.....

Ahhh, a "problem cadet".  Basically, any cadet who doesn't salute an officer (or whatever) because he doesn't care and because his attitude stinks.

Take a look at this article...
C/Maj Greg(ory) Boyajian, CAP
Air Victory Museum Composite Squadron

abysmal

Quote from: Greg on March 11, 2005, 03:48:24 PM
Snuffy always was a "Problem" Cadet though.....
Ahhh, a "problem cadet".  Basically, any cadet who doesn't salute an officer (or whatever) because he doesn't care and because his attitude stinks.

Take a look at this article...

It was SOOO much easier on active duty in the 82nd.
Everyone Wanted to be there and fought hard to get a slot.
The personal motivational levels were always High to begin with....
2LT Christopher M. Parrett
[red]Deputy Commander of Cadets, Cadet Programs Officer[/red]
London Bridge Composite Squadron 501
SWR-AZ-112,  Lake Havasu City, Arizona