Various things

[WoodlandSARman]

For those that PT at meetings. When I say PT I mean PT!!!!!!!!!!!!

Do you do formation PT like what we did at encampment or is it everyone in a gaggle doing their own thing? I just got back into cap and my old unit and and trying to turn things around back to the old hardcore days.

Last PT it was play time, when the run came some of the female cadets made it HALF A LAP before they decided they wanted to go inside. I sent the CC after them and they said they were "sick" but whats funny is they were laughing on the way in and having a goold old time.

I made it rather clear to everyone that at the next PT (next week) we will do formation PT and it will no longer be play time. I don't see a point in PT when between exercises everyone is standing around laughing and playing stupid games.


On discipline, a few of my cadets like to "wear the uniform when they choose to". I being one of the former hardcore cadets now senior member went to the cadet staff and told them to fix it and the other issues pronto. One of them last meeting mentioned having a spead sheet with everyones names on it. Any cadet that disrespects another cadet, chooses not to wear a unifrom, does not salute or hit the wall for an officer gets a mark. After 3 marks or so of any infraction it is taken to the senior members. This will more then likley reset every 6 months or so because people make honest mistakes with the small stuff. Per mark the cadet is asked to write a 500 word essay on why the mistake in general hurts them and the program ect ect (since we can't do individual PT anymore  )
From what we can tell this would no break any regs and would be done quietly and would be very effective. The cadets that go the longest with no marks get rewards, like leading drill, teaching a class, ect ect.
We are wanting to bring this up at the staff meeting on Monday. If the essay is a bad idea then it could still be brought to the senior members. Again, everything done quietly and in private.
Its a cadet squadron but being a former cadet I have been asked by the cadet staff to help make things the way they used to me so I am just looking for some info and guidance.
This unit used to be CG national and regional champs and one of the most respected squadrons/GT's in the wing and region and now well, its not because everyone but me and one other person has left. Its bad enough that I have to remined people to salute and wear their uniform..... If used to be that you were scared to death to show up with a loose string on your pants a quarter inch long.

[RiverAux]

I'm not sure I've ever seen too many cadets show up at a meeting without a uniform.  Seniors -- yes, but not cadets. 

[BillB]

Show films of past cadet activities, or explain the "old" cadet program to cadets, and the majority say that's the kind of program they want in their Squadron. But to a big extent, you no longer can run the old style program. Cadets want a military program, the more military the better, but trying to run the old program often violates the provisions of CPPT. While parts including organized PT might improve the effectiveness in a Squadron, the fact that some of the girls you mentioned quit doing the mile run means that they can't be promoted. So the organized PT might help cadets progress. The danger comes in when the military aspects of the program are carried to an extreme. The old style Boot Camp attitude in a Squadron is now a no-no.

[jimmydeanno]

When I say PT I mean PT!!!!!!!!!!!!

trying to turn things around back to the old hardcore days.

PT and it will no longer be play time.

I being one of the former hardcore cadets 

or hit the wall for an officer gets a mark.

Per mark the cadet is asked to write a 500 word essay

(since we can't do individual PT anymore  )

From what we can tell this would no break any regs and would be done quietly and would be very effective.

I have been asked by the cadet staff to help make things the way they used to be

It used to be that you were scared to death to show up with a loose string on your pants a quarter inch long.

First question, how long have you not been a cadet?  It is important to remember that you are no longer one and that your role has changed.

I completely agree that they way (it sounds like) your squadron is running is unacceptable in terms of discipline and C&C.  However, turning your cadet corp into a hitler youth is unacceptable.

The purpose of the cadet program is to guide and mentor the cadets to learn about leadership to prepare themselves to be of service...

Running your typical squadron meetings as though it is encampment, functionally does not work - you tend to lose the operational tempo of your unit because everyone is waiting to be told exactly what to do and when to do it.

I am particularly interested in your last statement about "being scared to death."  Is the environment you want in your squadron to be one of fear?  There is a difference between being stern and acting like an... [language filter].

Remember that the cadets are going to view you as the example of what they should be and how they should act.  I think it would be terrible if your cadets thought that good leadership was elitism and full metal jacket.

The purpose of the cadet program isn't to be Paris Island, but it is important to have structure and discipline - but to what extreme?  When does it become impractical and disadventageous?

Jimmy.

P.S. I don't recall ever seeing anything in the D&C manual about 'hitting the wall' for an officer...

[capchiro]

You may want to back off and take it easy.  Hitting the wall is a no-no and as far as writing essays, it's not part of the program.  You can't just be adding things to the program.  The Reg's are pretty clear on hazing and the punishment is a bad news.  I have recently heard about more 2b's for hazing than almost anything else.  Todays youth have been told to report any potential abuse and they will.  When we were cadets, we were afraid of adults and authority and submitted to their desires.  That is not the case today.  They will report you in a minute and hazing is nothing more than making someone feel uncomfortable or embarrassed in front of their peers.  Caution Will Robinson Danger, Danger..

[WoodlandSARman]

I was a cadet from 97-02ish. The old days compared to now.

When I said scared to death it was because the squadron had people in it that were very strong leaders that you did NOT want to disapoint, it was not the fear of push-ups, it was the fear of disapointing the people that you respected, people that were going out at wining region CG's and a national.

So far the cadets are happy with what I am trying to do. I have yet to get on a non staff cadet. If I see something I go to the CC. Only once have I gone to the flight sgt about something and it was advice and it was because the CC was busy with some IACE cadets.

I thought that maybe the essays might be a bad idea. At the very least we can just reward the cadets that excel. IE promotions, statt positions, GT and CG slots, ect ect.

The problem with PT is that the mile times are a joke untill you get some serious stripes on you. They just see it that when it comes time for a promotion that they will run hard that PT day for their promotion.
I DO think organized PT is the way to go. I let the cadets run things, the cadets asked me to help get things back to the way they should be and still be legal and I said ok. A lot of it has to do with particular cadets and seniors that are no longer in the program. One of them was a Infantry CSM who was forced out due to time in and went back active on voulentary recall and is now at Benning. We are about to loose two staff cadets, one being the CC and next week all the positions are changing so its going to be a nightmare for a while. One of the cadets that was a flight sgt is the one that picks and chooses when he wears his uniform and I found out last meeting they took away his flight sgt position.

Hitting the wall (standing at attention against the wall when an officer passes) has been a squadron tradition for as long as I can remember. There also used to be hitting the wall (not hard its a term) for millitary NCO's, and staff NCO, we have been letting that one go for a while put are talking about bringing it back. Again, its a squadron tradition and is not painfull or anything hahaha.

The full metal jacket stuff in my sig is mostly a joke from my cadet days. I was known as Pyle... I thought it was funny untill I saw the movie!

Does everyone agree that ditching the essays but still keeping track of everything to lead to rewards for the cadets that excel is ok? Some of the problem is we have a few cadets that are just there to hang out with their friends or have a crush on the CC.....
I gave a speech on wearing the uniforms and the next week almost everyone wore it. I also plan to give a class on teh old days of what it meant to be a cadet. Al in all we have good cadets, they just need guidance in some ways and those of us that are former cadets have to remember we were them once.

[capchiro]

I think you are definitely on the right track.  Rewards are the way to go.  Some kids hate writing and it might cause them to drop out and that isn't really your goal.  Also, giving them speeches about stuff is good to motivate them and sometimes, they will get so motivated they will do more than we can "make" them do on their own.  They may try to prove on their own that they can be as good as the "good old days" and that is what you are after.  Just watch some of the cadet leaders and don't let them get too rough on the younger ones and I think you will have a great squadron.  Welcome back in the saddle.

[WoodlandSARman]

I have a good cadet staff. When I first came back I can't rmember how many times they said "sir, we can't do that anymore"

HAHAHAHAHAHA

They have also pointed out to the cadets at least as far as i know thats its NOT GOOD when the seniors have better uniforms then the cadets. As in patches look nice, its ironed, boots are shined, ect ect.

I plan to start PTing with them, not in flight but at a small distance to lead by example. If I start to out PT them I think it may push some of them to push harder so others don't laugh when a senior member is out in front!

I remember that when I was a cadet that was a huge no no, a cadet never lost in PT to a senior, that is, when seniors PT'd!

I will say that I am having just as much fun being a senior as I was a cadet, maybe even more.

[ZigZag911]

Leadership by personal example, positive motivation (have you considered a 'cadet of the month" competition? public praise from squadron CC/DCC or cadet CC for job well done or significant accomplishments or improvement?), guide the cadet staff....you're hitting most of the right notes, get some feedback from other seniors, as well as cadet staff.

[WoodlandSARman]

The problem with the other seniors is we don't have has many as we used to. We used to have quite a few.

Now we have two LTC's (both rather advanced in years and talking about getting out in 2-3 years) and they are our paperwork people, the other is a new 2LT who has 9 kids and trying for the 10th!, he helps as much as he can and we go to each other with issues and questions. Then there is out Squadron commander and she stays pratty busy with that and her kids and newborn but gets a lot done for whats on her plate. At the staff meeting next week I am going to bring up us trying to recruite more senior members. Right now we don't have enough if you ask me. Only 3 of us that can really go out and do stuff with the cadents including our commander. Not enough for a roster of 50 cadets 20 regulars or more if you ask me.

We have a cadet who just joined and his father is a foot doctor and a former Maj and medic in the Air Force, I have mentioned us trying to talk to him about joinin in the past because most of th emeetings his son is at he is at sitting off to the side. He would also be a valuable addition being a former officer and medic.

Once things turn around a little more my father is going to start teaching a class or two every now and then. He has been AF/ANG for 27 years doing nothing but aviation and used to help out when I was a cadet. I also know a former JROTC instructor who was a Maj in the ARMY and Infantry and spent some time in Vietnam and I know he would give a class or two from time to time. He even said he will probably join one day but not right now (30 plus years in and needs a break). This would also be more motivation.

I think cadet of the month is a very good idea, I forgot all about that.
I thought about using cadets as good examples, say cadet john doe has his rank/grade on better then anyone else, we could use his uniform as a good example? As long as it was not allways the same cadet this could be a positive for that cadet and the others?

Another really good thing we have is our commander is a former Spaatz cadet, I was a cadet with her at that unit and her and I are the only former cadets in the unit so we work rather well together and have a pretty good understanding so far.

From what I can tell the majority of the cadets want it to go back to the old days (as much as it can) they just need guidance. The staff themselves pretty much told me to be hard on them (the staff).

I do think a class on what it used to mean to be apart of that unit and what it meant to be a cadet would be very helpfull.

If there are any good videos online let me know. As in ones you can play off the net.

[Grumpy]

My problem is, I'm 62 years old and I've been wearing an AF uniform either in CAP or the AF since 1959.  I'm starting to get tired of it.  Besides, at 62 I think I probably look like these little ol' guys who you see on Memorial Day running around wearing their WWII uniforms.

[Chappie]

My problem is, I'm 62 years old and I've been wearing an AF uniform either in CAP or the AF since 1959.  I'm starting to get tired of it.  Besides, at 62 I think I probably look like these little ol' guys who you see on Memorial Day running around wearing their WWII uniforms.

Grumpy, you are just saying that because it is true       Do you plan to be at Encampment?

[Grumpy]

I shall be there with bells on (or what ever else is appropriate).  I'm trying to complete TWO years in the vertical position.   

[Chappie]

I shall be there with bells on (or what ever else is appropriate).  I'm trying to complete TWO years in the vertical position.   

Good to hear...will see you and Chaplain Nelson there.

[ZigZag911]

You definitely need more seniors for proper supervision, but it sounds as if you have some good leads on recruits already.

When I mentioned present seniors, I meant to get their views on what the unit needs, and how some of your innovations (or returns to yesteryear!) are working out.

[WoodlandSARman]

Yeah I am hoping to be able to bring that up Monday.

[WoodlandSARman]

Well the meeting ended up being rather short because there was so much to go over I did not have the chance to bring much up but I do think everyone feels we need to get more seniors in. i found out one of the cadets mother is a current or retired Maj in the ARMY Guard. She is at every meeting doing work stuff.

One of the guys that used to run the squadron is an ARMY CSM now back at Benning, he has been in for I think 34+ years.

I had them do formation PT last night and that seemed to help things a lot, almost no play time.

It seems I will be the Squadron ES officer and GTL soon, was told I will more then likeley get another job on top of that. I hope not hahaha. Our numbers are starting to go back up. We are now back in the number 1 slot of most members in the wing so thats good. We just need more seniors.
We have a few events that are big coming up that I will not be able to make, I have to try and take off this weekend for a SAR eval and took off for NESA and I don't have paid vacation so after this weekend its pretty much meetings only for me for a while. This leaves our commander and one other senior who is VERY busy to do things very activley. I can only see it streching us out more with the more cadets that we keep getting. If it continues I bet we will have enough to have two stong flights by the end of the year.


Any of you in Cadet Squadrons and are seniors? How involved are your seniors? When I was a cadet we had a VERY good cadet staff and the seniors did not have to be involved much. This has all changed because they are ALL gone and its taking years to rebuild I think.  I try not to get involved and try and just watch as best I can. How many sneiors do you guys have and cadets?

[jimmydeanno]

We are a composite squadron.  We currently have 25 active cadets and about 10 seniors.

There is an interesting dicotomy within the senior structure.  When you ask "how many seniors are active," it's hard to explain.

The 'operations' senior members are active "only when needed," so the pilots fly when the pilots are needed, etc.  Now, what I'd consider active are only the seniors that work with the cadet program (DCC, LO, MLO, etc).  The are active in ES, but of all the seniors they are the most 'dedicated.'

[WoodlandSARman]

Well we have a few that are there at least 3 out of the 4 weeks during the month. THats what I consider active.

Composite squadrons are really weird, its almost like for themost part its a cadet squadron and Senior Squadron that have merged hahaha.

Sadly there are a lot of seniors out there that want nothing to do with cadets.  Some do though, one of the guys on my team at NESA this year is out of a senior Squadron in Vegas, he had never even SEEN a cadet untill then and he loved working with them after that.

Everyone needs a mentor in this program if you ask me.

[dwb]

I was a cadet from 97-02ish. The old days compared to now.

Not exactly.  PT for punishment wasn't allowed when you were a cadet, you know.  I'm sorry to say, you are not qualified to speak on "the old days" of being a cadet.

I personally think the "hitting the wall" tradition is stupid.  Smacks of acting like what the military is perceived to be.  I've shared office space with military folks, their day-to-day working environment is nothing like that.

Also, you would do well to spend some time learning how to be a senior member, specifically, how to be a senior member that administers a cadet program.  It's not the same as being a cadet.

[davedove]

Sadly there are a lot of seniors out there that want nothing to do with cadets.  Some do though, one of the guys on my team at NESA this year is out of a senior Squadron in Vegas, he had never even SEEN a cadet untill then and he loved working with them after that.

I think a lot of them are just concerned about working with "a bunch of kids."  They don't realize just how outstanding some of the cadets are.

[WoodlandSARman]

What does not quallify me? Please explain this to me. So since I am no longer a cadet I can't speak a word of it? Just because something is not authorized does not mean it does not happen. I was a cadet from 97-02ish. Saying I am not qualified to speak on that is very insulting to me. Granted there are people that were cadets WAAYYYY before my time like my grandfather. Those were the old days to them, not many of those guys still around though compared to the younger seniors that were cadets in the 90's. Keep in mind most cadets get out and don't go senior from what I have seen and been told by many. You may have been a cadet way before I was, thats the old days to you, we all have out old days.

Everyone has their own views on what punisment is, I don't view PT as punishment but CAP does so I will and DO abide by that. Were there times I was asked to push for a mistake I made when I was a cadet? Yes, was I ever forced? No sir. Did I do it? Yes sir and proud of that! Did it happen much with me or others? No, it was almost allways the fear of disapointing the perople above you that you respect that made you do things right.

I work around and am around former and current millitary every day of the week. In the work inviorment things are differnt yes, I don't consider squadron meetings a work enviorment. If we did then nobody would worry about uniform apperance, saluting, ect ect. Say uou are a crew chief, C&C's go out the door when you are in the hangar and out on the line. Leave those areas and its all back.
Do I tell cadets they need to do all this stuff at a SAR Ex or something like that? No, should they still salute and give respect to the rank with a sir or ma'am when not in the boonies? Yes. I tell my cadets that if we are out in the boonies to not even worry about calling me sir, if you do you do, if you don't you don't as long as you are respectfull.

Some traditions are stupid to some, to others its tradition. When IN wind still had out wing patch my unit creased its wing patch and were the only ones who did. It was tradition.

Please try and word things better next time. I AM trying to learn to be a better senior member, hence me being here asking questions.

davedove, yeah I think a lot of them have not seen the high speed motivated cadets. Some I know are a part of senior squadrons and don't see cadets much at all. You can't really blame them, Its just the way it is haha.
I had one in my team at NESA this year who was a senior squadron guy, had never even seen a cadet before and he was pretty impressed. Most just see the cadets in there area but when they go to the HUGE SAR EX's and national activities they see a lot more good ones and the ones that have been around for a while. I know when i first started some considerd me a kid, and in a lot of ways I was but I had a lot of people help fix that.

[dwb]

Alright, take a deep breath.

When I hear "old cadet days", I have images of hazing and such.  Things that were technically done away with a long time ago.  Maybe you consider "old cadet days" to be five years ago, but that's not how most people interpret the term.

That said, I absolutely encourage you to discuss what you got out of the cadet program, I never said otherwise.  Be careful not to do too much When I Was A Cadet storytelling, because as you get older, cadets will be less and less interested in what some dinosaur did when he was a C/Amn (and by the way, 30 is considered dinosaur by most cadets).

Sorry if I came across as flippant (I think that's the second time I've used that word today).  I just wanted to point out that your time as a cadet is not considered the old cadet days (neither is mine, BTW).

[Stonewall]

Former SWR-OK-002 - Black Knight Command Staff Maroon Beret.

Were you in that squadron that had all these pictures of cadets and I think, a senior or two, wearing black and maroon berets on your website?  I'm pretty sure that's the squadron I've seen but I can't seem to find it now.

If those are the "old days" you speak of, your "old days" aren't that old.  If you were a cadet post 9/11, your days aren't that old.  But again, my days from '87 to '91 aren't that old compared to some folks on this site.

As a young man who turned senior member at age 20 after being a cadet, I will recommend that you don't play a direct role in your squadron's cadet program just yet.  I think Justin Bailey will agree with me that you'll need time to learn the guts of the program from the senior side before taking on roles like Deputy Commander for Cadets, etc.  I wasn't reigned in as quick as I should have been and started teaching cadet patroling techniques as I was an active duty infantryman.  I taught "actions on the objective" at a crash site that looked much like actions on the objective of a search and destroy mission.

As a senior, you should be teaching senior cadets how to teach, lead, conduct PT, plan and execute orders.  You'll have to step in and do things yourself on occasion, but as soon as you think they've got it, lett'em run with it.  Learn the ins and outs of the cadet program administratively first, then put it into action.  Attend TLC, SLS and CLC ASAP.  Especially TLC!

Just some food for thought.

[dwb]

There is a tipping point, where the cadets stop considering you young.  I was discussing this with some folks recently, and we think that once you get to the point where no cadets are left that knew you as a cadet, you're old.

Until that time, you should somewhat limit your involvement in cadet programs, for a variety of reasons.  One is that being a CP senior member is a whole different ballgame than being a senior cadet, and it takes time to learn.  Also, you want the current cadet leadership to establish their authority.  There's nothing worse than an early-20s s'member trying to relive the glory days.

I spend most of my time these days working exclusively with cadet officers.  I'll chat with the cadet NCOs and airmen, but I am first and foremost a trainer of cadet officers, which involves all kinds of indirect leadership and Dale Carnegie techniques to get it right.  I taught a class at my meeting tonight, and I realized I should stop teaching classes, because the cadets look at me like I'm an old fart.

I'm sorry... what was this topic about again?  Also, I should change my user name, or at least add my name in my sig, so people stop calling me Justin.  Dan would be less confusing to me, seeing as that's my name.

Edited to add: +1 for attending a TLC.  They rock.

[Stonewall]

Also, I should change my user name, or at least add my name in my sig, so people stop calling me Justin.  Dan would be less confusing to me, seeing as that's my name.

If someone doesn't use their real name in their sig block or as the username, I don't refer to them as their real name in case they were interested in anonymity.

[ZigZag911]

Some of us really were cadets in the "old days" (is 1970 old enough for you??)

Back then a lot of the silliness mistakenly seen as 'military' (e.g., hitting the wall) did indeed go on.....I rarely if ever recall push ups as punishment except at encampment, and even there it was more likely to demerits, a verbal butt chewing, or both.

I believe experiences may have varied from wing to wing...however my wing (NJ), I've been told through the years, has always been considered one of the more strict in terms of military C & C.

Many of the myths and legends about the cadet program are precisely that -- myths and legends!

[SarDragon]

Some of us really were cadets in the "old days" (is 1970 old enough for you??)

Back then a lot of the silliness mistakenly seen as 'military' (e.g., hitting the wall) did indeed go on.....I rarely if ever recall push ups as punishment except at encampment, and even there it was more likely to demerits, a verbal butt chewing, or both.

I believe experiences may have varied from wing to wing...however my wing (NJ), I've been told through the years, has always been considered one of the more strict in terms of military C & C.

Many of the myths and legends about the cadet program are precisely that -- myths and legends!

I have to agree with Mr. ZigZag here. I was a cadet in NJWG in the 60s, and even back them, the stuff we call hazing these days was not allowed, specifically PT for punishment.

[floridacyclist]

Remember 341s? Lt Floyd found a source for them and wants me to convert them to PDF so she can print them in bulk.

[shorning]

Remember 341s? Lt Floyd found a source for them and wants me to convert them to PDF so she can print them in bulk.

For what purpose?  What do they provide that can't be done in a more appropriate way?

[WoodlandSARman]

Just so everyone knows, I am not mad at anyone, you have to remember some things in my past mean A LOT to me, my cadet life is one of them.

I know and mentioned that my old days are not your old days. My grandfathers cadet years was when like CCapt was as high as you could go and before my dads birth was even a dream! You want to see old stuff I have his aerospace book and one of the orignal CAP blue history books that was printed in like WWII!!!! THATS OLD!!!!!!! I was just stating that everyone has their own old days

Only one yes I said one cadet is still in as a senior member that I was a cadet with, she is the squadron commander. There is another one who is now more of an AF member that helps out that still remembers me but he is not in my wing.


I so far have only directly talked to staff cadets. Thats it. Come late August we will have TWO officers and a few NCO's. Loosing a good NCO and officer. I have told them all that once things get going strong and there is a good command structure that I fully plan on steping back. Right now I am only one foot in and plan to keep it that way.

When I was a cadet untill my very last year or two I only had cadets above me that were horrible leaders. One who now is AF and NBB staff told me and others after he got back from NBB that none of us would ever have a career like his or beret. The last two years I had cadets start to expect a lot out of me and help guide me some. Then all the sudden I am thrown into a command staff position and a year later was forced out of CAP due to school and work (I honestly cried when I had to leave that unit).

Two weeks before that the squadron commander pulled me aside, he is now a USMC bird Col former Ranger now or then commander of a USMC land warfare (or maybe off shore...) school.

He pulled me aside and asked why I was still a CMSGT. I told him I did not want to be an officer and wanted to stay with my men and continue to be a good SNCO. He then told me that he needed more good cadet officers and asked me to test for 2lt. He then had to go out of town and I then had to leave on shot notice and never got the chance to thank him for the best compliment I have ever got in CAP.

I want my cadets to have what I never got untill it was to late. A leader and mentor. Im sure I would have been a spaatz cadet if I had one. People get annoyed at me taking GREAT pried in my honor team at NGSAR 2000 and my maroon beret. Thats all I had on top of my GTL that does not mean as much. The only two big memories I have. I want them to get more then what I got.

Granted I have realized that is a lot of ways I am still a cadet at heart. Some of the cadets see me as a cadet/Senior, yes its my fault and I plan to fix it. I am also by far the youngest senior member there so that hurts me some, not that thats an excuse.

However since I have started things have started to turn around when it comes to C&C and I am very happy with that.

Im just hear to learn from you guys.


On the beret thing, who knows, I doubt it if they were back, Edmond Composite squadron, just north of Oklahoma city, it was never anything offical, not many people got it, when I was with the unit I was maybe 1 of 5 that had one out of like 50 cadets. Never worn outside of our FTX area that we had. We allways had them with us though, I still keep mine in my cargo pocket. It meant and means that much to me.

On the PT thing, just because something is not ok or authorized does not mean it does, or has happend. Some things are myth yes but some things are not.


When you read my posts please keep in mind I am very well known for speaking my mind hahaha. Though I do try and be respectfull about it.

Im just a guy who went from the top to being the little guy on the totem poll and trying to learn

I don't think anyone is to old to teach cadets. When I was one and young we had an LTC Foster, he had to be at least late 80's and was forced by his doctor to retire from CAP. He spoke and we payed attention. He cared about the program and the cadets a lot, he never said it but we could see it and that went a long way.

[WoodlandSARman]

On my spelling and grammar. Everyone please keep in mind I work third shift 10 hour days so my internet time is very limited and I am often in a huge hurry. I will start using spell check when I can.

[jimmydeanno]

Former SWR-OK-002 - Black Knight Command Staff Maroon Beret.

Were you in that squadron that had all these pictures of cadets and I think, a senior or two, wearing black and maroon berets on your website?  I'm pretty sure that's the squadron I've seen but I can't seem to find it now.

Is that anything like Raspberry Berets?  You know, the kind you can find at the second hand store?

[Flying Pig]

I was in CAP as a cadet from 87-93.  I joined the Marines in 93' and in 97' I got out and I came back as Dep Commander for Cadets. 

Being a new Senior Member in a Sq. where you were just a cadet a few months prior can bring with it different challenges.  And what your Sq. "Used to be" doesn't matter.  Those people and that particular motivation is gone.  Your cadets arent going to be motivated by cadets whos names mean nothing to them.

Im sure you have promotion review boards?  If cadets aren't showing up in uniform, have it reflect in their review boards.  If they are continually sitting out for PT, then no promotion.  If a staff member shows up with no uniform, replace them if it becomes an issue.

If your cadet staff has traditions, take a serious look at them and see if they violate CPPT.  But what happens is when your cadets take that "tradition" to some Wing Conference it can make them look silly.    As far as physical punishment?  There really is no place for it in CAP.  In the Marines, while at Infantry School....you bet there is a place for it.  When I was a cadet, I saw cadets physically injured because of some 17 year old who had watched Full Metal Jacket one to many times.   
As far as Seniors inflicting hazing on cadets?  Your going to get your teeth knocked out by some parent someday, and then get contacted by the police for child abuse. It aint worth it. And youll be viewed as a kid who never got to be the guy in charge.

You have cadets trying to get out of PT?  Haa!  Welcome to life.  I work with Deputies Sheriff's who do the same thing!!  When they've been C/Amn's for a year they'll either quit or get it together.

One of the biggest issues I see former cadets dealing with is finding the happy medium from their former lives.  As a cadet, you can be CAP 100% 7 days a week and it is impressive.  The day you become a Senior Member, that makes you a "dork". 

Most of us "seasoned" Seniors have families, mortgages, other hobbies, limited finances, and conflicting work.  You need to sit back for a while and see how the Senior side works.  There is a huge admin side of the cadet program that you need to become familiar with.  The argument of "I didnt promote because I wanted to be a good NCO"....Thats the lamest argument I have ever heard.  Your weren't a military NCO being commissioned to 2Lt.   You stopped in the middle of the program, and thats fine.  A C/2Lt doesn't know less than you, they passed you up.  Whatever your reasons were, they are your own, but don't fall on your sword with that argument.  Everyone sees right through it.

Being that you were a career NCO, Im pretty confident you didnt get into the admin side of CAP all that deep. That is where you now need to be locked on.  Keeping records up to date, mailing forms, knowing how to move around the CAP web site.  Knowing the regs.  God help you if you screw up some cadets 11th hour Mitchell Award because YOU missed something and the week before he/she ships for boot camp and they loose E-3!  It has happened.  The power is in the detail.  If all you have is grand ideas, and a sharp uniform but dont know how the system works, youll find yourself  being just tolerated by your peers.

As a new Senior, you need to do a serious self assessment.   Ask yourslef, What do I really bring to the table as far as being a leader or mentor?  Your answer may be that you need to hang in the shadows for a while.  Ive seen many transitioning cadets who say they want to be "mentors and leaders".  OK, fine, but why weren't you a mentor last week when you were a cadet?   
You talk about LTC Foster, and how everyone listened to him.  There is a reason people shut their mouths when a repected 80 year old man speaks.   As a cop, there are guys I work with whos mere presence on a scene commands respect.  Nobody can really place their finger on it, it just happens.

Its good that we have members with the time and energy to get things put together and think outside the box a little. But be careful in its presentation.  Perception IS Reality.  When you post that you want a "CAP LRP Course" taught by former Green Berets and Rangers teaching long range-extended SAR Ops, hiking 15 miles in the snow, then talk about your beret you still carry in your cargo pocket, its presentation smacks of the age old "Elite Unit" every cadet dreams about, but every Senior knows is unrealistic.

Im not taking  a punch at you, but you made the comment that your beret and NGSAR 2000 were your biggest memories and people get annoyed because you talk about it and still carry your beret?  In law enforcement we call that a clue......Stop talking about it and put that thing in a box.  As long as you dwell on "when I was a cadet" your going to stay a cadet.  You are now a new Senior.  Your in a whole different ball game.  Your a Senior coming from the cadet side.  People will give you a grace period to make the change and they'll be polite.  But in reality, nobody really cares about cadet exploits. 

[Stonewall]

Excellent point Pig.  WoodlandSAR dude, take heed to what 1st Lt Steht said above.  It is absolutely 100% spot on.  It takes a man to do a true gut check, and what he describes above is exactly that.  Pride will need to be swallowed and memories of your cadet days will need to go into the photo album.  You are not old and salty, you are simply a new, fresh, out of the box senior member.  You know about the same as some of your cadets.  You have little to no life experiences to reflect on which may help you teach the cadets or get a point across.

The whole LRP thing, in theory, may be a relevant idea in your mind and in the mind of others.  But in your current standing, as a fresh new [young] senior, you need to throw all that beret and "WIWAC" crap to the side and bury your nose in the regs, sit back and watch some of the seasoned seniors, go to all the professional development courses, do your ECI 13 and step back from direct contact with the cadets.  Trust me, I speak from experience.

It's not that we're throwing punches here, it's because we understand your motivation and desire, but more important than both of those things is maturity and humbleness.  You want things now, tonight, or by next meeting.  But the facts of life are that you'll spend years learning what you need to know and forgetting what you don't. 

Right now, simply show up in a good uniform, make an appearance, maybe become the subject matter expert on a single topic and teach it, but other than that, be the gray man for a while and learn how to be an adult member.

Just food for thought and to echo on what Flying Pig said above.

[Stonewall]

On the beret thing, who knows, I doubt it if they were back, Edmond Composite squadron, just north of Oklahoma city, it was never anything offical, not many people got it, when I was with the unit I was maybe 1 of 5 that had one out of like 50 cadets. Never worn outside of our FTX area that we had. We allways had them with us though, I still keep mine in my cargo pocket. It meant and means that much to me.

I must have skipped over this before.  Yeah, go ahead and throw that beret away or into the closet.  Never speak of it again or tell cadets they have yet to earn it.  It's a joke.  You didn't go to some 3 month school or do any kind of high angle SAR isnertion to earn it.  Its a goofy hat that some are forced to wear and it means next to nothing when compared to the true honor of serving.  As I've always said, PJOC is probably one of the most demanding NCSAs out there and you don't see those dudes sportin' a beret.  They go to PJOC and get a slice of humble pie handed to them.  Again, lose the beret.  If I saw you, as a senior member, carrying around a beret from you cadet days in your cargo pocket, I'd point and laugh.  And that's not hazing cuz you're a senior.

[WoodlandSARman]

This whole topic is not pointless because I am not group staff so no more directly working with cadets.

I went to a SAR EVAl last weekend and talked to a few people. Grew up a lot as a senior member (I was NOT a cadet a few months ago people read my post's). I was hit in the guy a few times and realized how much things have changed and I am a way better senior now.

I put my beret up for my own reasons. Someone saw it and said something but I threw up a good argument and we both left it at that.

I know people that carry stuff on them from tehir cadet years, one is a squadron commander. You never see these things but they have them, some have their former rank on under the collar super guled, most have been senior members for years and one is on GLR staff.

I stoped promoting halfway into the program because I did not have someone to mentor me and help guide me that my now former cadets now have.

I got a lot of respect from a lot of cadets at the SAR Eval that did not know me at all because of some of my actions down there. I am on Group staff because of my actions now and in the past. Nobody knows what all me or anytone has or has not done in the program PERIOD. I could wear a GT bereat right now if I wanted to, I sitll wear my BDU cover. Why? Because it works, looks good and I have had it since I was a basic. Am I going to "throw it away"? No. The maroon beret is sitting on my dresser formed were it will stay. Have a problem with it or what I do with it then please keep it to yourself. I will keep in in my sig, just as everyone has their mitchell and all in their sig. Tell me to drop my beret and everyone drop you mitchells. Rank means NOTHING to me in this program, what I do does.

When did we get on this thing about physical punishmint? I mentioned how a lot us us use to push for mistakes on our own free will. Everyone is acting like I want to go full metal jacket on everyone. If you would have read my posts better you would have realized what I was talking about

To the person that said they would point and laugh at me for my beret because its not hazing because they are a senior.
You try and be a leader but yet you fail and fall flat on your face sir! You insult me and the uniform you wear (thats not hazing "cuz" you are a senior". I am hear trying to learn and ask questions and you tell me you would point and laugh and it would not be hazing?

People get on me about my spelling but we have an LTC that says "cuz" I laugh sir at your leadership.


On the comment about a cadet not getting E-3. I have talked to many recruiters. All have said if you have a few years in the program and don't have it they will give it you you anywase. Most of the time they just put you in with a few others under the buddy system and get you E-3 that way. I know two former Cadets that never got it but went in E-3...........

End of topic, it is not relavent anymore. With my new job I am SUPPOSED to think up of schools and classes ect ect no mater how crazy they are lol. Its apart of the job. I am getting PM's and posts from people that agree with me on the classes and lots of people in the wing and on staff that want it and its pending final aproval for me to start up a ciriculum and has been pre-approved. Its like I said, I don't was to teach search and destroy SHEESH PEOPLE PLEASE READ HAHAHA. If people would have read my posts better this never would have blown up.

Get with it guys, when a person is asking for guidance and help give it to him. Don't laugh at him and shoot him down.

You don't see PJOC grads wearing a beret because NBB is the only national activity were you get a beret. Your point is pointless................ sir.

My last point is many people think some thins are un-realistic. So far no cadet has been asked about my classes. Senior seniors have been and group staff members have been. All have told me to go for it and run with it! So  honestly in the end it does not matter what others think if the command staff in the group or wing want it and tell you to do it and you have poeple show up now does it?

A lot of people think what Hawk teaches is stupid but yet people go every year and wings are starting their own and others wings are allready doing what I want to do, Florida did it not to long ago and it was a huge sucess and all over the news.


PERIOD! Lets stop humiliating the program and let people do their own thing.

[Flying Pig]

 "I could wear a GT bereat right now if I wanted to.."

OK, what is a GT bereat?  The difference with a Mitchell is that is an ACTUAL CAP award.

PERIOD! Lets stop humiliating the program and let people do their own thing

Then don't post with a thin skin.   People wearing maroon berets is what happens when we let people do their own thing.  There are only two types of people who wear maroon berets in an American military uniform.  From what you've posted, you have been neither.

On the comment about a cadet not getting E-3. I have talked to many recruiters. All have said if you have a few years in the program and don't have it they will give it you you anywase. Most of the time they just put you in with a few others under the buddy system and get you E-3 that way. I know two former Cadets that never got it but went in E-3...........


Hmmm, really.  Its nice to see that you can speak for all of the recruiters and vouch that they will "give it to you anywase"

"People get on me about my spelling but we have an LTC that says "cuz" I laugh sir at your leadership."

Its called "slang", it wasnt a misspelling.  And yes, I too would laugh and point at your self imposed maroon beret.  Your the one who said you still carried it around.  Not us.


"So  honestly in the end it does not matter what others think if the command staff in the group or wing want it and tell you to do it and you have poeple show up now does it?"

Ummmm, what?

[jimmydeanno]

I see this getting ugly pretty fast...

what's that saying...nevermind, it'll just stir the pot more...