No More NCC

[lordmonar]

This is what I would like to see in the NCC.

Each WING sends a CG and DT to the week long comp.

Each wing pays it's own way for their teams.

That way NHQ is not spending $130K on the event, more cadets participate in the NCSA on the national level.

Yes....that makes the event that much bigger....but it also makes it that much more of impressive event for the cadets.

That my sound good but Logistically impossible. Just to find a place big enough to house 52 CL and 52 DT along with enough staff the numbers would be astronomical. Lets not forget finding the facility that could remotely hold this. Plus how many members it would take just staff this widespread of event. It would take more than a week for that many people.

No....not impossible....just really really big operation.....any large university could put up 300 participates and staff....easy.  My daughter just went to a thespian camp in Indiana for a week that hosted more then 300 participants.  And as USAFAUX just said the BSA does an even larger event every four years.


As for taking more then a week....I call BS. 
Arrive on Sunday
Written and PT Test on Monday
Tuesday Uniform Inspections
Wednesday Regulation Drill/Regulation CG and Outdoor CG/
Thursday Innovative Drill/Indore CG
Friday one hell of a massive drill down and just having fun...followed by an awards ceremony
Saturday depart.

Just need a large enough venue to run more then one team at a time.....the real hard part will be having enough things for the teams to do while they are waiting their turn.

Again.....not impossible....just big......and that is sort of the point isn't? 

[Eclipse]

300?  That's just a large encampment.

[ol'fido]

I have considered adding a flight to our Advanced Training Squadron at the Illinois Wing Summer Encampment that would train in Color Guard, Drill Team, honor Guard, etc. It would be held within the structure of the encampment and therefore would not require special or additional funding. We have some resources available at wing and I think I can scrape together enough equipment to put one on. I was hoping to lure Ray Hicks or Leon Flowers back from Texas to run it. Unfortunately, LtCol Flower's passing will make that more difficult. I am also thinking of asking Command Chief Dandridge if he can fit it into his busy speaking schedule. This would be a one week activity and would not result in any bling other than a certificate. I had quite enough of the "Dril Team God Complex" here in IL several years ago.

[lordmonar]

oops

So I can't do math.

That's should be 1560 participants.....that's 30 members per wing....10 CG team + alternates and escorts and 20 DT team + alternates and escorts.
Add 200 Staff.....for 1760......again not too hard for most large universities during the summer.

If it really get's too big.....split it up into two venues (one for CG and one for DT)  But that doubles your staffing....which is not really a bad thing.

Again if it gets too big....you can also do it alternating years (CG on odd years and DT on even).  That would make it 520 on CG years and 1040 on DT years.

[Eclipse]

^ Those numbers are probably not practical in today's CAP / post BRAC paradigm.  Just feeding that many people would take a Vegas-level brunch.

However 300 is probably doable in just about every wing, and the smaller wings would not have that many.

The scale is why it should probably stay Wing-level or smaller.  In wings where the majority of the population are in one place, most of the participants could be day-players and incur no lodging cost, and get their own lunch on breaks.

It's when you move outside the Wing that the costs escalate and your ROI starts to move in the other direction, and because the entry cost is so high, that's when the seniors start getting nuts with the uniforms, coaches, team PT gear, etc., etc. Because when you're in it for $10k, what's another $500, right?

Standard, daily-wear uniforms, standard PT gear and civvies, etc., etc.  It's not the Olympics.

[lordmonar]

Then why not just do it at encampment and be done with it?

The point I am trying to make is make a NCSA that is in fact something BIG and has something cool about it.

I never said anything about doing this at a military base......we don't need to go there for something like this.

[Eclipse]

Then why not just do it at encampment and be done with it?

Small training flights or part of advanced squadrons?  Maybe. Properly training cadets in CG techniques is
actually a good idea, maybe it should be added to the required curriculum.

As a large addendum to the activity? No.

Encampments have a mission and purpose, not to mention a pretty significant courseload and structure (now), ES training, etc., etc., tend to pull staff in too many directions, and generally dilute the experience for the basics students, and we do not have the manpower in most wings to run a standard encampment the same week as a large-scale CG academy at the same time.  The broken record of "more people" is salient here as well, but without them, the cup is pretty empty.

The second issue is competing activities.  A large-scale CG academy would compete with encampments and NCSAs, and that's where the cadets belong.

As to venue, military facilities are the only option in a lot of wings because of the scale and the finances.
In my wing, schools that could support the events are increasingly charging for their facilities, and/or increasing their costs.  The only places we can get large-scale billeting and meals is military bases and similar facilities. Most other places are too expensive, too small, or inappropriate for various reasons.

The more we talk this through, the more it becomes evident as to how and why we got to the point where the activity is "paused", and why it is not really a viable activity in today's CAP.

[PHall]

Then why not just do it at encampment and be done with it?

When do you propose to do this at Encampment?  We already have just about every minute available booked already just doing the stuff that is required by National.

[SarDragon]

I think the idea is to be concurrent with the encampment, not a part of it. The '08 GLR-N/MI encampment ran a concurrent RCLS when I was there, and it seemed to work well. The staff worked both events, and everyone use the messing and berthing facilities jointly. I think a CG Academy could work on the same basis.

[a2capt]

In a round about kinda way, NCC in 2012 did run concurrently with OHWG encampment.

Though it was not shared infrastructure/staff, they were on the WSU campus at the same time. I got the feeling the encampment people were not thrilled with us there.

Other OHWG people did make comments about it being a strain on the host Wing, logistics, vehicles, etc. NCC commands the use of a lot of vans as one example.

Of course, a venue where everything is within walking distance and a small motorpool for checking out a vehicle to go to the store, or similar.. would make more sense. But that's not always possible either.

It's a ton of work picking a venue.

[PHall]

I think the idea is to be concurrent with the encampment, not a part of it. The '08 GLR-N/MI encampment ran a concurrent RCLS when I was there, and it seemed to work well. The staff worked both events, and everyone use the messing and berthing facilities jointly. I think a CG Academy could work on the same basis.

Well, since we usually fill every bed we have and end up with a wait list for the CAWG Encampment, I guess we don't have to worry about that.

[NIN]

Don't forget, its on a "strategic pause" for 2014 to allow for re-evaluation and re-engineering, not "abolished forever," gang.

BTW, according to the evidence I've heard (solid empirical data, even!), the NCC program reaches fewer than 1,000 cadets, even counting those who participate at the region and wing levels.  So I guess I need to revise my prior statement about reach to "less than 4%".

[FW]

Spending $130k for NCC is a significant number (about 5% of the current corporate income of CAP).  I would definately look for alternatives to funding, however I would hope this activity would continue.  There are better ways of conducting this activity, and more economical ways of funding it. 

At the local level, it is totally self funded;  no problem here...
At the wing level, it is mostly self funded; no problem here...
At the region level, it is partially self funded; the region funds much of the competition from their operating budget.  There is usually no problem at this level.
That the "NCC program reaches fewer than 1,000 cadets" should not be an issue.  With the proper "support", this program can reach millions thru good "friend raising" activities.  This is one area where "sponsorships" is a good thing...

NCC can not be totally funded by CAP unless there can be a dedicated funding source(s).  This is not a difficult proposition.  Unfortunatly, I don't think anyone as seriously tried to identify a way to do this.  NCC can be a great "branding opportunity". 

I'm happy that 2014 will be an "off year".  CAP needs to reacess this, and other such programs.  There are better ways to do business.  We just need to have the will power to change.
Now I'll go back to munching my popcorn...

[Eclipse]

At the region level, it is partially self funded; the region funds much of the competition from their operating budget.

And where does this "operating budget" come from?

[FW]

At the region level, it is partially self funded; the region funds much of the competition from their operating budget.

And where does this "operating budget" come from?

Region dues are $8/member; every member.   

[Eclipse]

At the region level, it is partially self funded; the region funds much of the competition from their operating budget.

And where does this "operating budget" come from?

Region dues are $8/member; every member.

My point, exactly.

[NIN]

<snippage occurred>
That the "NCC program reaches fewer than 1,000 cadets" should not be an issue.  With the proper "support", this program can reach millions thru good "friend raising" activities.  This is one area where "sponsorships" is a good thing...

Indeed.  That it reaches/impacts fewer than 1,000 cadets puts it on the level of a large NCSA.

But spending that much money on < 1,000 cadets doesn't compute from an ROI standpoint. And anything we're doing should be viewed thru the lens of "Is this cost impacting the largest number of members possible?" and if the answer is "Well, no," then its time to re-evaluate (which is what NHQ is doing).

Certainly, this doesn't inhibit wings & regions from continuing to hold cadet competitions to "keep the edge on the sword," even if said sword won't get used the "The Big Game" for 2014. 

Ideally, in 2014, wings & regions could use this as an opportunity to examine "better competition" practices that lead to a) better participation; b) broader impact to the overall cadet program; c) reduce the "distraction" from "the usual CP" that being a truly competitive team seems to require.  A great opportunity for Wing & Region CPs to use their competitions as a "testbed" for events & strategies for 2015 and see if the desired outcomes are achieved.

[FW]

Darin, I think NCC could be used more to showcase our cadet program to the country.  ROI should be considered as to total effect on CAP.  If NCC is utilized to build support for the organization as a whole, then,I would argue, any funds spent on it would be well used.

[Eclipse]

In the CAP paradigm, if the "whatever" has to be specifically formulated just to have a competition, then we're missing the point, whether that's NCC, a SARComp, whatever.

The USAF doesn't grow and nurture pilots for Red Flag, the best and brightest go there to learn how to perform >mission essential< tasks at the highest level possible.
Pilots and crews are already doing the job as a matter of course and who are simply rising to the top.

So in CAP, that would translate to CG's but no drill teams, grade-appropriate PT, not volleyball, etc., and established teams who are "doing the job" whether or not
any competition exists.

The "final exam" mentality is another reason CAP struggles so much.

Ongoing excellence and programs with knowledgeable staff?  Nah, just cram for the CI and appoint whoever shows up to check the boxes.
Ongoing ES programs that learn from mistakes, make hard choices about resources and function on the plane of reality?  Nah, just keep doing what
we have always done and then brute-force effort the opportunities where chance brings us a real mission.
Concerted recruiting efforts that pipeline members to create cohesion at all levels and bring units and activities together?  Nah, just run everything
as an island and reinvent the process with each new shift.

And of course...Color Guards as a normal part of unit curriculum in order to foster respect for the colors and provide a resource to the community?
Nah, just scramble 2 months before the competition to see if anyone is interested, then forget about it for another year.

((*rinse*, repeat))

[NIN]

Darin, I think NCC could be used more to showcase our cadet program to the country.  ROI should be considered as to total effect on CAP.  If NCC is utilized to build support for the organization as a whole, then,I would argue, any funds spent on it would be well used.

Couldn't agree more, sir!

("Welcome, D&C fans, to the Civil Air Patrol National Cadet Competition. Brought to you by Coca-Cola, Monster and Cessna. Only here on ESPN8, The Ocho!")

Just like the Best Ranger competition basically tests "Ranger skillz" and especially day-to-day Ranger skillz, the NCC should do something similar.

Innovative drill is not something we do day to day. How about a standard drill obstacle course?  Skillfully navigating a flight from Point A to Point B in an orderly fashion while using the correct commands, and having the cadet execute based on those commands, as opposed to doing things by rote, without getting run over is probably far more "cadet-ish" than "dancing." (yes, I know innovative is no longer that, but you get my point)

Obviously quiz bowl & written test are not exactly "sporty events". "Gee, Cotton, those cadets can fill out a form 23 with the best of them!"

But the PT test could be. Volleyball? Meh.  Unless you're an Olympic-level volley ball team, volley ball isn't that much fun to watch.

Inspection?  Another barn-burner of an event that will likely NOT get covered on The Ocho.