Design a new CAP-distinctive Uniform

[BrianH76]

I realize I'm really running the risk of getting flamed here, but I think the efforts to design another corporate uniform will not be successful.  Reading between the lines of the PowerPoint presentation, it appears to me that the Air Force is saying the uniform for CAP is the Air Force uniform.  They want an option for those who don't or can't wear the AF uniform, but not a military-type option.  This suggests that no military-type uniform will be approved by the Air Force, regardless of its color, style, or insignia. 

If CAP is serious about becoming a more uniform organization, it should focus on those uniforms over which it has some control:  the corporate varieties.  We currently have five separate CAP-distinctive uniforms: grey/white with blazer, BBDU, blue flight suit, blue utility uniform, and the polo combination.  While the motivation behind each of these uniforms was good, it has created a total lack of identity for CAP.

Because of this, I think the best way to streamline our uniform closet is to eliminate CAP corporate uniforms, except for two:

Dress/Casual wear:  Grey/White combination with blazer for dress wear (worn on occasions where blues or mess dress are worn)
Casual/Field wear:  Polo/Grey with option for grey BDU pants for field wear  (worn on occasions where BDUs or flight suits are worn) - firefighters, police, and EMTs wear similar clothing for their work, and I think it would work fine for CAP

I would propose a long phaseout period (Dec 2012) for all other remaining uniforms.

Of course, I realize that some members have purchased the other uniforms, but the long phaseout period should allow them to get plenty of wear out of them before switching to another alternative.  Plus, it preserves the two most common CAP-distinctive uniforms in the current closet.  Most members I've seen who do not wear the AF uniform wear either the grey/white or the polo combination.  I've seen very few members wearing BBDUs (only two in three years) or the blue flight suit or utility uniform (none in three years).  There will always be some members who cannot or choose not to wear the AF uniform.  Also, there will always be members who will wear nothing but the AF uniform.  Creating another corporate uniform will not correct this, and will only create less uniformity and make us less identifiable as an organization.  This idea would bring us closer to uniformity while having functional, low-cost alternatives to the AF uniform. 

[wuzafuzz]

I realize I'm really running the risk of getting flamed here, but I think the efforts to design another corporate uniform will not be successful.  Reading between the lines of the PowerPoint presentation, it appears to me that the Air Force is saying the uniform for CAP is the Air Force uniform.  They want an option for those who don't or can't wear the AF uniform, but not a military-type option.  This suggests that no military-type uniform will be approved by the Air Force, regardless of its color, style, or insignia. 

I think you nailed it there.

Because of this, I think the best way to streamline our uniform closet is to eliminate CAP corporate uniforms, except for two:

Dress/Casual wear:  Grey/White combination with blazer for dress wear (worn on occasions where blues or mess dress are worn)
Casual/Field wear:  Polo/Grey with option for grey BDU pants for field wear  (worn on occasions where BDUs or flight suits are worn) - firefighters, police, and EMTs wear similar clothing for their work, and I think it would work fine for CAP

Close, but not quite.  The dark blue polo is not what we should be wearing for real ground team work.  Keep BBDU's for those who can't wear woodland BDU's.  Those with beards or who prefer the boonie cap will thank you.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I realize I'm really running the risk of getting flamed here, but I think the efforts to design another corporate uniform will not be successful.  Reading between the lines of the PowerPoint presentation, it appears to me that the Air Force is saying the uniform for CAP is the Air Force uniform.  They want an option for those who don't or can't wear the AF uniform, but not a military-type option.  This suggests that no military-type uniform will be approved by the Air Force, regardless of its color, style, or insignia.

No flames here, just honest disagreement (in part).

As for BBDU's and the utility jumpsuit, I wear both, and I see the BBDU's around quite frequently.  I strenuously disagree with eliminating those.

If anything, I would eliminate the polo uniform entirely and keep the grey/white.  Members cannot wear ribbons and/or devices that they have earned on the polos, nor do they show rank.

I think that any corporate uniform that uses any distinctive USAF items (including, but not limited to, the USAF flight cap) is going to be vetoed...which was the gist of the problem with the CSU.

I think that anything using metal rank will be vetoed.

As for "military-style"...that can cover a wide variety of styles, including the current grey/white (shoulder epaulettes, chest candy).

I believe that the Prime Directive will be to clearly, visibly and publicly run it by CAP-USAF and secure USAF approval before any kind of ICL is issued, before any pictures are released or any possible items go on sale.

[Angus]

I realize I'm really running the risk of getting flamed here, but I think the efforts to design another corporate uniform will not be successful.  Reading between the lines of the PowerPoint presentation, it appears to me that the Air Force is saying the uniform for CAP is the Air Force uniform.  They want an option for those who don't or can't wear the AF uniform, but not a military-type option.  This suggests that no military-type uniform will be approved by the Air Force, regardless of its color, style, or insignia.

No flames here, just honest disagreement (in part).

As for BBDU's and the utility jumpsuit, I wear both, and I see the BBDU's around quite frequently.  I strenuously disagree with eliminating those.

If anything, I would eliminate the polo uniform entirely and keep the grey/white.  Members cannot wear ribbons and/or devices that they have earned on the polos, nor do they show rank.

I think that any corporate uniform that uses any distinctive USAF items (including, but not limited to, the USAF flight cap) is going to be vetoed...which was the gist of the problem with the CSU.

I think that anything using metal rank will be vetoed.

As for "military-style"...that can cover a wide variety of styles, including the current grey/white (shoulder epaulettes, chest candy).

I believe that the Prime Directive will be to clearly, visibly and publicly run it by CAP-USAF and secure USAF approval before any kind of ICL is issued, before any pictures are released or any possible items go on sale.

But why do that? That would make sense, remember this Come And Pay after all.

[BrianH76]

Close, but not quite.  The dark blue polo is not what we should be wearing for real ground team work.  Keep BBDU's for those who can't wear woodland BDU's.  Those with beards or who prefer the boonie cap will thank you.

As for BBDU's and the utility jumpsuit, I wear both, and I see the BBDU's around quite frequently.  I strenuously disagree with eliminating those.

If anything, I would eliminate the polo uniform entirely and keep the grey/white.  Members cannot wear ribbons and/or devices that they have earned on the polos, nor do they show rank.

My idea of using a modified polo combination as a field uniform was because so many members already have it and because it is a low maintenance uniform.  I think not having to worry about sewing rank, patches, etc. on as a plus.  Since other emergency services organizations use something similar, I thought we could adapt it for field use as well by allowing use of grey BDU trousers as an option.

However, I could also see making either the BBDU or blue utility uniform the choice for field use.  That way, you could wear rank, etc. and still reduce the CAP-distinctive closet to one dress/casual uniform and one field uniform. 

But let's reduce the closet while using what we've already got, what the AF has already approved of, and what's proven to work instead of rolling out another new and expensive uniform. 

[davidsinn]

My idea of using a modified polo combination as a field uniform was because so many members already have it and because it is a low maintenance uniform.  I think not having to worry about sewing rank, patches, etc. on as a plus.  Since other emergency services organizations use something similar, I thought we could adapt it for field use as well by allowing use of grey BDU trousers as an option.

You've never been camping have you? Wearing a polo in the woods is a huge mistake. The agencies you refer do do not spend overnights in the field like we do. The ones that do wear a BDU style uniform. I'm indifferent to the polo but do not take away my BBDU.

[Angus]

My idea of using a modified polo combination as a field uniform was because so many members already have it and because it is a low maintenance uniform.  I think not having to worry about sewing rank, patches, etc. on as a plus.  Since other emergency services organizations use something similar, I thought we could adapt it for field use as well by allowing use of grey BDU trousers as an option.

You've never been camping have you? Wearing a polo in the woods is a huge mistake. The agencies you refer do do not spend overnights in the field like we do. The ones that do wear a BDU style uniform. I'm indifferent to the polo but do not take away my BBDU.

In addition most agencies that use a polo are either doing it at a POD or at a Base.

[RiverAux]

Two issues -- some people do prefer to wear NOMEX for safety reasons, and in some places it is required, so there needs to be some option for corporate versions of that.  I also agree regarding that the polo is not appropriate for real field use.  Personally, the AF might look at the BBDU as more of a police-style than military style uniform due to the solid blue coloration even though the design of the uniform is clearly military. 

[High Speed Low Drag]

OK - Have completed the female variants.  (Only after many hours of photoshop and many beverages)



I did them a couple of different ways - One difference is on the top row is either a long tie vs. a cross-tie.  And a round service cap vs. female service cap.

All items here are off-the-shelf except for the female service cap.  That would need to be custom made (at I don't know what cost).  However, I included it becuse the female focus group I polled stated that they would prefer the female service cap.  But, as the focus group was small, their views may not be indicative of all females.

And, to refresh everyone's memory- here are the male versions.  Also, for comparison sake, I took the CAP Cutouts off the female, left them on the male.  It would be the same final form, but I wanted the "Cut-outs vs. no-cutouts).


Next item to do - I will try and put together an estimated cost list for the uniform items.

[LTC Don]

Thanks for your hard work.  I hope the hangover(s) weren't too bad 

I'm opposed to the grey slacks.  I believe we need to be in all-blue (understanding the shade is now LAPD blue), but I understand the logic of wanting to stay in grey slacks so the heartburn is manageable.

I'm also very opposed to having the cutouts with the grey slides, as there is no logic there (needless redundancy).  If the cutouts stay, then we need to go to metal grade on the epaulets.  If the cutouts go, then my heartburn on staying with the grey slides is much less.


Ultimately, I would absolutely love to see the membership in an all-blue (LAPD-blue) service dress (which would give CAP the latitude to address height/weight/grooming standards as it relates to one uniform for all), and then be able to delete the white/grey combo (and also the deletion of the blue blazer).

Cheers,

[stkgc]

i just thought of some thing what about woodland bdus and the navy polo shirt and boots and a black t shirt

[Cadet Dan]

http://www.armytimes.com/xml/news/2008/08/army_newblueuniform_082008w/081908at_ClassB_male.JPG

how about the blues tucked into boots look?

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

http://www.armytimes.com/xml/news/2008/08/army_newblueuniform_082008w/081908at_ClassB_male.JPG

how about the blues tucked into boots look?

First of all, if it involves the Air Force blue trousers, we won't be able to use those for a CAP-distinctive uniform.

Second, even if it doesn't, the Soldier in the picture is a paratrooper.  The tucked-in trousers are an Airborne tradition (I had a friend in the 101st), as is the maroon beret (worldwide) and I don't think our colleagues in Army Airborne would appreciate us appropriating something which is "theirs."

I had considered the possibility of us using a grey beret with an enamelled CAP crest many years ago until I discovered that Air Force Special Ops Weather Technicians use it.

[NCRblues]

What cyborg said, but also Air Force Security Forces Elite gate guards wear dress blues with pants tucked in to black combat boots with white laces. I think the Air Force would have a small problem with this.

[Hawk200]

http://www.armytimes.com/xml/news/2008/08/army_newblueuniform_082008w/081908at_ClassB_male.JPG

how about the blues tucked into boots look?

As stated above, for Army troops, it's limited to certain qualifications such as paratroopers and Air Assault types.

For the Air Force, bloused blues is usually associated with combat jobs, or something related to it in training or function. None of which CAP has. There is no precedent for us.

[RogueLeader]

http://www.armytimes.com/xml/news/2008/08/army_newblueuniform_082008w/081908at_ClassB_male.JPG

how about the blues tucked into boots look?

First of all, if it involves the Air Force blue trousers, we won't be able to use those for a CAP-distinctive uniform.

Second, even if it doesn't, the Soldier in the picture is a paratrooper.  The tucked-in trousers are an Airborne tradition (I had a friend in the 101st), as is the maroon beret (worldwide) and I don't think our colleagues in Army Airborne would appreciate us appropriating something which is "theirs."

I had considered the possibility of us using a grey beret with an enamelled CAP crest many years ago until I discovered that Air Force Special Ops Weather Technicians use it.

Sorry to bust your bubble, but he is NOT a paratrooper.  HE is AIR ASSAULT.   Air Assault wear the black beret, while Airborne wear the marron beret. Only Airborne, Ranger, Special Forces, and Air Assault Units are authorized to blouse pants into boots. 

I have to do it, and it does not look that good IMHO.

[Gunner C]

What cyborg said, but also Air Force Security Forces Elite gate guards wear dress blues with pants tucked in to black combat boots with white laces. I think the Air Force would have a small problem with this.

Ooooooooo. Eeeeeelite!

[Gunner C]

http://www.armytimes.com/xml/news/2008/08/army_newblueuniform_082008w/081908at_ClassB_male.JPG

how about the blues tucked into boots look?

First of all, if it involves the Air Force blue trousers, we won't be able to use those for a CAP-distinctive uniform.

Second, even if it doesn't, the Soldier in the picture is a paratrooper.  The tucked-in trousers are an Airborne tradition (I had a friend in the 101st), as is the maroon beret (worldwide) and I don't think our colleagues in Army Airborne would appreciate us appropriating something which is "theirs."

I had considered the possibility of us using a grey beret with an enamelled CAP crest many years ago until I discovered that Air Force Special Ops Weather Technicians use it.

Sorry to bust your bubble, but he is NOT a paratrooper.  HE is AIR ASSAULT.   Air Assault wear the black beret, while Airborne wear the marron beret. Only Airborne, Ranger, Special Forces, and Air Assault Units are authorized to blouse pants into boots. 

I have to do it, and it does not look that good IMHO.

I thought it looked ok when I was enlisted.  But when I became an officer, that mohair stripe down the leg goofed it up, It kinda drooped on the outside.  I thought it was a pain.

[NCRblues]

What cyborg said, but also Air Force Security Forces Elite gate guards wear dress blues with pants tucked in to black combat boots with white laces. I think the Air Force would have a small problem with this.

Ooooooooo. Eeeeeelite!

Hey I didn't name them....just saying what the Air Force calls them.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Sorry to bust your bubble, but he is NOT a paratrooper.  HE is AIR ASSAULT.   Air Assault wear the black beret, while Airborne wear the marron beret. Only Airborne, Ranger, Special Forces, and Air Assault Units are authorized to blouse pants into boots. 

OK, first off: I was not in the Army, so I am not well-informed about the distinctions you make above, between Airborne, Air Assault, etc.

Also, my friend (sadly deceased) in the 101st Airborne wore a maroon beret, bloused trousers and a parachutist's qualification badge.

As well, I have seen, either in person or in pictures, troops from Canada, the UK, Australia, New Zealand, Germany and others who wore maroon berets, and they all had one thing in common: they jumped out of/were carried into battle by fixed- and/or rotary-wing aircraft.

So I see maroon beret and think "parachute," as in the UK's "Red Devils" Parachute Regiment.  I know what the Air Assault badge looks like, but the picture provided wasn't close or detailed enough to see that.

And, as I understand it, almost everyone in the Army - Active, Guard and Reserve - now wears the black beret, which was quite a controversial move, since, unlike many other armed forces, berets in the US armed forces denote special status (like Rangers and Green Berets).

So, the problem here is one of nomenclature, and it shouldn't be a problem, since I was going on the information I had available at the time.