Design a new CAP-distinctive Uniform

[High Speed Low Drag]

Is there a commercial source for the gray jacket, flight cap & service cap?

The black flight cap is in use by the Navy for thier new unifrom, the jacket and service hat are LAPD Blue and readily available from public safety suppliers.

If you guys want, I'll develop a cost list

[sfdefender]

I like the general idea of making the Aviator Uniform more like a Service Uniform and also the ideas of adding the following outergarments:

- Black "Class A" Jacket with CAP 25/36 Ligne Buttons (silver) with a WWII style shoulder patch.
- Army Black Windbreaker (the same one formerly authorized with the CSU)
- Army Black, or "commando" Sweater
- Army Black All-Weather Coat
- Black web belt with the silver buckle and tip

IMHO, black on gray looks sharp, especially if you throw in a West Point style stripe down the leg on a set of nice Garbadine Poly Twill Trousers.

If any of you have the black windbreaker or sweater, throw a set of the grey epaulets on it and put it on (over your current white and gray combo) and take a picture. I am curious if it looks any good in real life.



Matt Brewer, Maj, CAP

[arajca]

I like the general idea of making the Aviator Uniform more like a Service Uniform and also the ideas of adding the following outergarments:

- Black "Class A" Jacket with CAP 25/36 Ligne Buttons (silver) with a WWII style shoulder patch.
- Army Black Windbreaker (the same one formerly authorized with the CSU)
- Army Black, or "commando" Sweater
- Army Black All-Weather Coat
- Black web belt with the silver buckle and tip

IMHO, black on gray looks sharp, especially if you throw in a West Point style stripe down the leg on a set of nice Garbadine Poly Twill Trousers.

If any of you have the black windbreaker or sweater, throw a set of the grey epaulets on it and put it on (over your current white and gray combo) and take a picture. I am curious if it looks any good in real life.

Since you asked...
[smg id=87]

A side group is looking at pretty much what you describe - without the wing patch. I am authoring the proposal. once it's ready, I'll post it here.

[SarDragon]

Is there a commercial source for the gray jacket, flight cap & service cap?

The black flight cap is in use by the Navy for thier new unifrom, the jacket and service hat are LAPD Blue and readily available from public safety suppliers.

If you guys want, I'll develop a cost list

That hat really sux, and the fabric doesn't match much of anything we're already wearing.

[Al Sayre]

I know a lot of folks who read this thread think it's some kind of pipe dream that we could design a uniform here and even get it considered by the NB.  I was talking to the boss last night, and it appears that there is at least some interest in what we are coming up with on here.  Based on the number of replies in the "Captalk Members in Command" thread, I would guesstimate that we have a fair number of folks who have the horsepower to get a uniform suggestion/submission straight to our respective National Board members without jumping any chain of command.

Therefore, I would make the following proposal:

Let's see if we can come up with 3 complete service dress uniform combinations (with estimated costs) to replace both the CSU and the Blazer uniform (or keep either or  both of them in the mix if that is what folks here want)  that would be acceptable to us here on CAPtalk. We can do this by poll:

1.) Put up the pics of however many folks come up with, and vote for the top 3. 

2.) Take these back to our squadrons and get our squadron members to vote on their preferences (ranking). 

3.) Then we as squadron commanders & wing staff officers submit the 3 choices with the members rankings to our Wing CC's to take to the winter boards. 

We already know that uniforms are going to be a hot topic, this way the general membership will at least have some input.  We will need to move quickly to get this done

[FlyingTerp]

Therefore, I would make the following proposal:

Let's see if we can come up with 3 complete service dress uniform combinations (with estimated costs) to replace both the CSU and the Blazer uniform (or keep either or  both of them in the mix if that is what folks here want)  that would be acceptable to us here on CAPtalk. We can do this by poll:

1.) Put up the pics of however many folks come up with, and vote for the top 3. 

2.) Take these back to our squadrons and get our squadron members to vote on their preferences (ranking). 

3.) Then we as squadron commanders & wing staff officers submit the 3 choices with the members rankings to our Wing CC's to take to the winter boards. 

We already know that uniforms are going to be a hot topic, this way the general membership will at least have some input.  We will need to move quickly to get this done

I've read the entire thread here and tried to stay out of the conversation as long as I could. I believe if you are going to take something like this to the membership, you need a "none of the above" option.  While I agree that there is a percentage of the membership that sees uniforms as a major issue, there are also members that have had enough of new uniforms, uniform modifications, etc. 

In this climate of budget cuts and other challenges, CAP leadership needs to stay focused on the core mission of emergency services, cadet programs, and aerospace education and not what uniform we wear to perform those missions.  Personally, I believe another round of uniform debate will seriously harm our relationship with the Air Force.  Can we perform our mission with the Air Force uniform options and corporate equivalents?  Absolutely.

I have on my Nomex.  Possibly I need asbestos.  Ready for flame.

[MIKE]

I've read the entire thread here and tried to stay out of the conversation as long as I could. I believe if you are going to take something like this to the membership, you need a "none of the above" option.  While I agree that there is a percentage of the membership that sees uniforms as a major issue, there are also members that have had enough of new uniforms, uniform modifications, etc.

:clap:

[Eclipse]

I've read the entire thread here and tried to stay out of the conversation as long as I could. I believe if you are going to take something like this to the membership, you need a "none of the above" option.  While I agree that there is a percentage of the membership that sees uniforms as a major issue, there are also members that have had enough of new uniforms, uniform modifications, etc. 

The majority of the membership is not involved in this conversation, and is fairly well disinterested in the issue beyond being provided uniform options which fulfill the mission in 100% of the situations, which are consistent with our place in the universe, and non-exclusionary to a large percentage of those involved.

Like every other conversation that raises the bar on our performance expectations, external identity, or mission scope, it will take strong, visionary leaders willing to chart a course (with input) and stay on it, including accepting the potential for membership attrition because of hurt feelings and flat toes.

[Майор Хаткевич]

- Army Black Windbreaker (the same one formerly authorized with the CSU)
- Army Black Sweater
- Army Black All-Weather Coat

^^^ Those are present on the Blues, so an equivalent on the Grays makes sense

[RiverAux]

Based on the number of replies in the "Captalk Members in Command" thread, I would guesstimate that we have a fair number of folks who have the horsepower to get a uniform suggestion/submission straight to our respective National Board members without jumping any chain of command.

You're assuming that those NB members are really interested in hearing yet another uniform idea coming to them. 

[Al Sayre]

Not an assumption.  They aren't a whole lot happier about the uniform mess than the rest of us.  Here is an opportunity for us to do something constructive, in the open with the backing of enough of the general membership to get some traction.  I'm fine with none of the above or keep what we've got as options, but we need to strike while the iron is hot.  The Wing Commanders are listening to the howls of disapproval on the CSU action.  Here is an opportunity for those of us on CAPTalk to "put up or shut up".  We can keep griping about how unfair the decision was and why we don't like it, or we can say "OK, we're all unhappy, but here is what we are doing about it".  If we don't move these proposals forward in a unified manner, they will never be considered, and we'll end up with another fait acompli which is what started this whole uproar in the first place. YMMV

[billford1]

I think in the end they might just end up leaving things alone as they are discovering all the headaches and complaints. I've said it on other posts. After 3 1/2  years what's the point of this. Does someone have a good explanation that they are willing to publish. Did NB really elect to table the discussion until 2011?

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I think in the end they might just end up leaving things alone as they are discovering all the headaches and complaints. I've said it on other posts. After 3 1/2  years what's the point of this. Does someone have a good explanation that they are willing to publish. Did NB really elect to table the discussion until 2011?

It depends on what you mean by "leaving things alone."  I doubt that they'll rescind their decision to do away with (or at least modify) the CSU.

[RADIOMAN015]

Not an assumption.  They aren't a whole lot happier about the uniform mess than the rest of us.  Here is an opportunity for us to do something constructive, in the open with the backing of enough of the general membership to get some traction.  I'm fine with none of the above or keep what we've got as options, but we need to strike while the iron is hot.  The Wing Commanders are listening to the howls of disapproval on the CSU action.  Here is an opportunity for those of us on CAPTalk to "put up or shut up".  We can keep griping about how unfair the decision was and why we don't like it, or we can say "OK, we're all unhappy, but here is what we are doing about it".  If we don't move these proposals forward in a unified manner, they will never be considered, and we'll end up with another fait acompli which is what started this whole uproar in the first place. YMMV

Why don't we just not make ANY changes to uniforms for a 3 to 5 year period, unless it can be proven that the supply of that specific type uniform is no longer available??  IF you don't meet the AF uniform wear standards than you wear the grey/whites and the blue suit coat on the formal side.  Most CAP members aren't loosing any sleep over this!!!

Many of the proposals including the use of other military services clothing (e.g.  Army black jacket/coat), hats etc again will require specific AF (and most likely the other services involved) approval under the provision of AFI 10-2701 para 1.3.4 . 
RM

[Cecil DP]

Let's not design any new uniforms, uniform items, or devices. HAving gone through literally dozens of uniforms over the years, They come in, last 3 years and a new and improved uniform is developed. We've had Guaybara shirts (white and blue), Polo shirts, (white, blue, and red), US CAP tapes (lasted 6 months),  Organizational ties (red, blue, and grey). CAP Mess dress badges, replaced by USAF Auxiliary badges, and reverted back to the original.

STOP, STOP, STOP!!!!!!!
We're beginning to look like the Uniform of the month club.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

OK, let the flames begin.

First, leave the AF-style uniforms alone, except for one change: the brushed silver nameplate with "Civil Air Patrol" that was designed for the CSU.  I don't see any harm in wearing that on the AF service coat, and they would probably be pleased to have something else to distinguish CAP.

The CSU is gone, so let's move on from there.

Eliminate all polo-type uniforms and blazers.

For utility/work dress: BBDU's and/or blue utility jumpsuit, with A2 or blue flight jacket as outerwear.

For more formal occasions: current grey/whites, modified with actual uniform grey trousers
(suggestion: http://www.stationhouse.com/uniforms/liberty/twill_trousers.htm)
Blue AF tie with CAP tie bar
Pullover dark-blue (not AF blue) sweater, with grey epaulettes and grey CAP nameplate
(suggestion: http://www.galaxyarmynavy.com/item-6343.asp)

Cautiously suggesting modified CSU service coat with grey rank slides and no sleeve braid.

Headdress...for informal the current CAP blue ball/BBDU caps would be fine; but for more formal, I don't know...probably something new would have to be created.

Other than that, all of these options use currently existing and available uniforms.

[Hawk200]

First, leave the AF-style uniforms alone, except for one change: the brushed silver nameplate with "Civil Air Patrol" that was designed for the CSU.

That I would support. On the old style service coats, we wore a tag that had the CAP designator on it, don't know why we didn't with the new one.

I would suggest moving the "Civil Air Patrol" script to below the name. On top, it looks wierd to me. Maybe it's just me.

[High Speed Low Drag]

Hawk200 -

Is this something like what you had in mind?

[Hawk200]

Hawk200 -

Is this something like what you had in mind?

Yup. I wouldn't have a problem with it, I'd go buy one without any complaint if it was mandated.

Maybe it's just me, but with CAP on top, it just looks funny.

[Eclipse]

Let's not design any new uniforms, uniform items, or devices. HAving gone through literally dozens of uniforms over the years, They come in, last 3 years and a new and improved uniform is developed. We've had Guaybara shirts (white and blue), Polo shirts, (white, blue, and red), US CAP tapes (lasted 6 months),  Organizational ties (red, blue, and grey). CAP Mess dress badges, replaced by USAF Auxiliary badges, and reverted back to the original.

We haven't had anything but the dark blue golf shirt for at least 8 years, the US CAP Tapes have been on the uniform since 2006 and don't sundown until Mar 2010.

With the exception of the CSU (which itself is three years old), there hasn't been a significant change in the uniform inventory in about a decade.  Everything else has been tweaks, with plenty of lead time to let those who are less "excited" about change wait for things to settle out.

I'm not in favor of unexpected change, either, but let's not characterize this as something it's not.  Anyone referencing Guaybera shirts or  berry boards is just looking to dredge up history no longer relevant to the current leadership (USAF or CAP).