Gray slacks/white shirt uniform

[BuckeyeDEJ]

The CSU is too close in appearance to the AF uniform for my taste. Plus, there's the tired (but relevant) contention that it's an illegal uniform. No one's tried to fix that, as near as I can tell.

Keep the white-and-grays, and save the ax for a few other "uniforms" that aren't the AF blues, the CSU and the white-and-grays.

[Hawk200]

I agree with your disagreeing, Hawk. For seven of the eight years I spent on active duty I was on a shaving waiver because of PFB (ingrown hairs), so I simply had to keep my facial hairs no longer than 1/4 inch in length. I just used (and still use) fine tooth clippers to keep the hairs short, even though now I just wear a well-groomed beard. Getting rid of the grays would be a real problem for people in my position who, medically speaking, would have a problem with the grooming standards required with the CSU and any of the AF-style uniforms, which I seldom ever wear anymore. I'll keep my white shirts and polos with the gray slacks thank you.

Now that I read my post, I'm not certain I was clear, so I'll try to clear it up now.

I think we should eliminate white/grays. I don't see the point of two alternate uniforms. However, I think that beards/longer hair should be permitted with the CSU. There's little valid point to the current restriction. With blues, the restriction is valid. With the CSU, it's not. Allow beards with CSU, just require them to be neat. It's not difficult to do.

Convert the shoulder mark color, to grey, and it will be a deal.

Done. Different nametags and shoulder marks for different uniforms is unnecesary.

We could eliminate the white/grey combo and consolidate a number of things in one fell swoop.

[lordmonar]

No reason we can't keep the gray and polo shirt....or we can really go casual and let our members where any pants with the polo shirt. 

[Major Carrales]

No reason we can't keep the gray and polo shirt....or we can really go casual and let our members where any pants with the polo shirt. 

Polo with grey pants, thought I will likely never wear it, can stay.  As a minimalist uniform for certain activities, it is great.  I would say this, however, since we are not really day to day uniform wearers, the idea of a "dress down" uniform is sort of moot.

[CAP_truth]

Maybe we should drop the AF uniform and just have the CSU. Drop the white/gray and cut down on the number of uniforms that we have. With just the CSU we could lower the grooming standards for the CSU.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

We could eliminate the white/grey combo and consolidate a number of things in one fell swoop.

Actually, not quite. The white-and-grays have more in common with the AF uniform than the CSU -- the nametag is the gray plastic one, just as we wear on the AF blue shirt. The epaulets are the same. You still have to buy two different nametags for coats -- the service coat uses the Air Force brushed-silver nametag while the blazer (basically, the white-and-grays with a tie and coat) has the special tag. That's a small price to pay, versus even the Pineda Suit coat alone, even if the pants are the Air Force pants.

But the CSU has not only the different coat, but different shoulder marks, another set of cutouts, sleeve braid, hat strap, nametags (blue two-line on the shirt and silver two-line on the coat)... sheez, I hear Vanguard's cash registers ringing needlessly.

We'd be better off ditching HWSRN's ego trip than relegating the white-and-grays to the scrap heap of former CAP uniforms, though unfortunately the investment in the Pineda Suit is fairly large.

[Smokey]

Well trimmed beards might be ok for the CSU (although I don't care for beards-never had one, never will) but long hair is a no no.  For you 60's retro folks...clean up your act, the hippe look is dead .

But I'm for dropping the white/greys simply to cut down on the number of uniforms.  Way too many combinations.  We look like we are playing for different teams.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

...I'm for dropping the white/greys simply to cut down on the number of uniforms.  Way too many combinations.  We look like we are playing for different teams.

What says that we don't look like we play for different teams with TWO parallel universes of uniforms instead of the current myriad?

Should there be one dress uniform -- the Air Force uniform -- and a civilian combination (note I didn't say "uniform") that is acceptable but doesn't appear to mimic in any way the Air Force uniform (as the white-and-grays and the CSU do)? Maybe we'd look a lot less rag-tag that way?

Thoughts?

[Hawk200]

We could eliminate the white/grey combo and consolidate a number of things in one fell swoop.

Actually, not quite. The white-and-grays have more in common with the AF uniform than the CSU -- the nametag is the gray plastic one, just as we wear on the AF blue shirt. The epaulets are the same. You still have to buy two different nametags for coats -- the service coat uses the Air Force brushed-silver nametag while the blazer (basically, the white-and-grays with a tie and coat) has the special tag. That's a small price to pay, versus even the Pineda Suit coat alone, even if the pants are the Air Force pants.

But the CSU has not only the different coat, but different shoulder marks, another set of cutouts, sleeve braid, hat strap, nametags (blue two-line on the shirt and silver two-line on the coat)... sheez, I hear Vanguard's cash registers ringing needlessly.

We'd be better off ditching HWSRN's ego trip than relegating the white-and-grays to the scrap heap of former CAP uniforms, though unfortunately the investment in the Pineda Suit is fairly large.

Actually, you've mentioned a few of the things I'd like to consolidate.

Right now, there are six nametags. Why? Reduce it. Both service coats, one nametag .I'd suggest the silver with the CAP, but put CAP below the name for appearance reasons (doesn't look right above the name). One grey tag for seniors, blue for cadets. Eliminating the blazer/white/grey eliminates another. Eliminate the blue "wants to be an Air Force nametag". Not sure about the CSM nametag, can discuss that later.

Epaulets: Simple solution, keep the grey ones. Lose the others.

Cutouts: Personally, I think we could go with CAP ones on both coats. Personal opinion only. US on one, but CAP on the other doesn't show solidarity within the organization. Can't have US on CSU, so go CAP for all.

Sleeve braid: Seems to be a Pineda thing, considering one of the writeups on his new project was a variation of the Army uniform with "lots of braid", and "aide de camps" wore silver cords. Same deal. One braid for both.

Right now, CAP service dress and the CSU look like they could be different organizations due to configurations. And as far as configuration goes, make it the same for both shirts, not the current case of "you can wear it like this on this one, but not on that one".

Yeah, I know it stinks, but do we want to continue looking as one poster put it, "A NATO convention" ? (I think it was Kack). If we all dress more alike, maybe both internal and external opinions will improve.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Right now, there are six nametags. Why? Reduce it. Both service coats, one nametag .I'd suggest the silver with the CAP, but put CAP below the name for appearance reasons (doesn't look right above the name). One grey tag for seniors, blue for cadets. Eliminating the blazer/white/grey eliminates another. Eliminate the blue "wants to be an Air Force nametag". Not sure about the CSM nametag, can discuss that later.

Epaulets: Simple solution, keep the grey ones. Lose the others.

Cutouts: Personally, I think we could go with CAP ones on both coats. Personal opinion only. US on one, but CAP on the other doesn't show solidarity within the organization. Can't have US on CSU, so go CAP for all.

Sleeve braid: Seems to be a Pineda thing, considering one of the writeups on his new project was a variation of the Army uniform with "lots of braid", and "aide de camps" wore silver cords. Same deal. One braid for both.

Right now, CAP service dress and the CSU look like they could be different organizations due to configurations. And as far as configuration goes, make it the same for both shirts, not the current case of "you can wear it like this on this one, but not on that one".

Nametags: Why do we need a two-line service-coat nameplate? Use the Air Force one. Keep the CAP cutouts on the CSU to differentiate it. The "U.S." on the Air Force uniform signified the Air Force's welcoming of CAP into the fold, so let's leave that one alone.

And there is nothing wrong with the gray epaulets, except that there should be a service coat variation without the stripes.

Doesn't anyone think the CSU is really nothing more than a former national commander's personal statement? If the guy spent less time designing uniforms, CAP could have been better served. Phase-out date, please?

[billford1]

What I wonder is how many Wing Commanders are on this forum? How many folks on this forum know a wing commander who would be in favor of doing away with the gray & white uniform? After all the prior talk about doing away with the gray slacks aviator shirt uniform among other changes that were thought to be forthcoming yet at the Winter NB the whole thing was radio silent. I'd love to know who put the kibosh on it.

[IceNine]

Drop the gray pants altogether.  Let the Polo shirt be worn with the blue AF pants.

Or Not!!

Khaki's...

[Always Ready]

Actually, you've mentioned a few of the things I'd like to consolidate.

Right now, there are six nametags. Why? Reduce it. Both service coats, one nametag .I'd suggest the silver with the CAP, but put CAP below the name for appearance reasons (doesn't look right above the name). One grey tag for seniors, blue for cadets. Eliminating the blazer/white/grey eliminates another. Eliminate the blue "wants to be an Air Force nametag". Not sure about the CSM nametag, can discuss that later.

*insert the rest of what you said*

I agree with you on everything except the nametags. Lets just have one for both service coats and shirts, like the cadets do. Keep the blue one for the cadets and use the gray one for us SMs. No silver tags, no extra bells and whistles. One nametag style for everyone (including the Blazer combo). This way we have the same nametag style as the cadets and same rules for wear. We would actually look like one organization at that point...scary

[SarDragon]

FWIW, the blazer nametag has the longest history, going back to at least 1968. Back then, minus the rank insignia, it was the standard name tag style for all members. The surface finish was textures, instead of today's smooth style, but from a distance, they are almost indistinguishable.

[jimmydeanno]

Regarding the grooming standards...

Do we really have that many people with long hair and untrimmed beards?  In all honesty I can't even remember the last time I saw a CAP member with one.  Maybe it's just where I live, but beards and men with ponytails aren't that prevalent. 

Are we arguing over something that is actually of high value, or is this another pregnant, unwed cadet thing where we'd be creating a policy that would only pertain to .00005% of our members?

[Al Sayre]

I know at least 1 WG/CC with a beard who wears the Grey & Whites.  BTW I would really like to see Khaki pants allowed for the Polo Shirt Uniform.  In my area, it's hard to find a standard shade of grey in anything other than polyester blend dress pants, which are not a real practical light work uniform. 

[SaBeR33]

The CSU is too close in appearance to the AF uniform for my taste. Plus, there's the tired (but relevant) contention that it's an illegal uniform. No one's tried to fix that, as near as I can tell.

Keep the white-and-grays, and save the ax for a few other "uniforms" that aren't the AF blues, the CSU and the white-and-grays.

+!

The CSU does look entirely too similar in appearance to the AF uniform, especially since most of its components are from said uniform. The addition of the flight cap only adds to this opinion.

[Hawk200]

Nametags: Why do we need a two-line service-coat nameplate? Use the Air Force one.

OK, I can get on board with that. I suggested the "Civil Air Patrol" one as distinctive to us, we wore one with whole spiel on it before on the older service coats (Although I always felt it didn't look quite right). I honestly don't care which one, as long as it's just one for both. No reason for two different ones.

Keep the CAP cutouts on the CSU to differentiate it. The "U.S." on the Air Force uniform signified the Air Force's welcoming of CAP into the fold, so let's leave that one alone.

I can appreciate the viewpoint, but I think our uniforms need far more common insignia. The two coats have far more different rules that really aren't needed. Asking the Air Force to put "CAP" back on our service coats would probably be a delicate subject. Getting approval to wear "US" on the CSU would probably be difficult as well. Tough choice. But two different collar insignia is unnecessary.

And there is nothing wrong with the gray epaulets, except that there should be a service coat variation without the stripes.

Not sure I follow. I think that the grey epaulets should be the only ones our seniors wear. I don't like the wear of Air Force epaulets on our uniforms. Did Pineda do it as an intentional end run around the Air Force? I cannot honestly say with any proof that he did. Do I think so? Yes, I do.

Doesn't anyone think the CSU is really nothing more than a former national commander's personal statement? If the guy spent less time designing uniforms, CAP could have been better served. Phase-out date, please?

I think so. Some would disagree, but it's still a matter of opinion. As to time on designing uniforms, I'd agree.

As far as phase out, CAP is kinda stuck, especially considering that many people have spent a great deal of money acquring it, and others are still obtaining it. Even though Pineda left in disgrace, he still left behind a legacy that everyone can see. Difficult subject.

[Hawk200]

Khaki's...

Got my vote. I'd even think about a polo, if that was an option.

[Hawk200]

I agree with you on everything except the nametags. Lets just have one for both service coats and shirts, like the cadets do. Keep the blue one for the cadets and use the gray one for us SMs. No silver tags, no extra bells and whistles. One nametag style for everyone (including the Blazer combo). This way we have the same nametag style as the cadets and same rules for wear. We would actually look like one organization at that point...scary

Personally, I think cadets ought to wear the same silver nametag, but theirs was authorized as a cost saving measure for cadets; in good conscience, I have to agree. It would be nice if it was issued to them, it can cost a few dollars.

On the service coat, the blue cadet one looks OK. Back during the transition period when the nametag was approved, I have seen grey ones on the service coat. It doesn't look right.

Now that I think about it, I could handle a blue one for seniors, just like in the past. I don't think that it would look bad with our grey epaulets, but there would be confusion, insignia wise, for a SMWOG. Don't know how to deal with that. The only difference, as far as insignia goes, would be the hat device.