What Uniform Changes Would You Like To See?

[DogCollar]

Looks better and most people have several pairs of khakis.

Really? What's your source for that? I don't own any! Brown isn't a good color for me.

Well the hospital were I work, there is a plethora of khaki trousers on doctors, admin, and chaplains like me...maybe only healthcare is keeping the khaki color alive??

Now, I happen to like the golf shirt combo.  One of the main reasons is that our squadron meets on Thursday nights and I am on-call for the hospital.  If I have to leave the meeting to go back to the hospital it is better to do so in something similar to what I wear everyday then to arrive and do pastoral care in my BDU's.

Also, I am one of those persons required to have both a pager and a cell phone on my  person when on-call.  When at CAP functions I usually put the pager in my pocket.

[0]

So then ditch the golf shirt combo which has many uses and create another uniform that doesn't look professional at all.

No need to create any more uniforms there are plenty of options already.

I was going for sarcasim.  Unfortunately didnt' translate to well.

No changes for the BDUs until we switch to ABUs. Let us wear warmer coats with the blues.

It'll be a real long time before CAP changes over to the ABUs.  Not even all of the USAF have been issued them yet (maybe all of the Active Duty but there are ALOT of National Guard Units that do not have ABUs).

It's going to be sooner than you think.  While yes most of the Air Force isn't in them, those that are in the ABU aren't turning in their BDU which is where we get a lot of ours from.  Phase in will start probably 2010 maybe late next year. 

[davidsinn]

Makes sense to me to hold-off on the uniform reg. rewrite till the ABU's come out. t sounds like they are still long ways off but still closer than we all might think.

I think that even if you change nothing the 39-1 rewrite is several years over due. We have an entire uniform that exists solely in ICL's which per regs are emergency use only and valid for only 90 days. That rewrite is very important. Changes...not so much so.

[rebowman]

It's going to be sooner than you think.  While yes most of the Air Force isn't in them, those that are in the ABU aren't turning in their BDU which is where we get a lot of ours from.  Phase in will start probably 2010 maybe late next year. 

They probably don't turn in their BDUs because they don't realize that they can.  They probably think that noone would want them.  It has been widely advertised to Army & Air Guard personnel in my state that if they don't want their BDUs that they can donate them to CAP.  My squadron has received alot of BDUs this way.  Some are even fairly new.

[RiverAux]

I would favor not making any changes at all to the BDU uniform.  Go ahead and fix whatever other issues are out there, but the liklihood of change to ABU in the not so distant future makes me just want to put everything on hold for the BDU, especially if we decide to follow the minimalist patch strategy as the AF has with that uniform.

[DNall]

I'm fairly certain that BDUs are frozen in place pending introduction of ABUs.

I don't know for sure, but I think the uniform cmte currently revising 39-1 is also working on a configuration for ABUs, however, the timing of implementation is up to the AF & dependent on their supply chain. I think you'll agree, it is prudent of us to already have an approved configuration ready to roll out when they give us the word. I can't really say about the initially authorized date, but I believe the final wear out date on BDUs will be no later than 2013. I actually expect ABUs to be authorized NLT 2010 & possibly before that.

I don't know what exposure yall have to AF personnel, but most of the ANG/AFRes personnel I see on an almost daily basis are in ABUs. The transition is moving along rather quickly at this point.

[Stonewall]

I don't know what exposure yall have to AF personnel, but most of the ANG/AFRes personnel I see on an almost daily basis are in ABUs. The transition is moving along rather quickly at this point.

My wing is only at about 25% with ABUs.  Of them, they were only issued one set.  So I imagine that's fairly across the board in the ANG/AFRES.  Just because you see an airman in ABUs does not mean they have 4 sets.  I was issued one set but that's just because I was on orders for a month earlier this year.  Most, and I'd say it's closer to 90%, of the traditional guardsmen in my squadron (close to 70 people) do not have ABUs.

[NAYBOR]

Well, without reading through all the threads, here is my wish list:

--Leave everything alone, except:

1.) Remove "CAP" cutouts from the CSU coat for CAP officers and NCOs [keep for cadet officers].  The CSU coat uses CAP-specific buttons, which is all that is needed by law.  Since the coat design, buttons and color is not used anywhere else in the US military (AF authorizes color 1625 for pants still, but NOT for service coat), CAP cutouts are redundant and unnecessary IMHO.  Taking the CAP cutouts off permanently also allows for more versatility in uniforms, such as suggestion #3 below, and reduces cost.

2.) Allow MEMS badge earned from SGAUS (http://www.sgaus.org) to be worn with CSU (if not already authorized).  Ask for permission for wear on AF-style CAP uniform (if not already authorized--unknown because some SDFs allow wear on the AF service dress within their state).  CAP members are allowed to earn this badge through SGAUS (see the weblink to the SGAUS site for the how-to).

3.) Make a "mess dress" version of the CSU coat incorporating AFROTC hard boards on the epaulettes, same silver braid as used on the sleeves, bullion rank devices on the boards, and replace the Hap Arnold button of the AFROTC board with the same-size bright CAP button.  The boards would look almost exactly like AF mess dress boards, except that the boards would be black, not blue, and the boards would be pin-on, not "snap on" like mess dress boards.  These proposed CSU "mess dress" boards would match the CSU coat sleeve braid like the AF boards match AF mess dress coat sleeve braid.  The proposed CSU "mess dress" would also have a black bow tie (in contrast to the AF blue bow-tie), tux shirt, and black button studs and links (links optional--black studs and links would be in contrast to the silver studs and links on the AF mess dress, and thus the black rank boards, tie, and studs would all match).  Hard-rank would not have to removed from the CSU epaulettes to put the boards on--the boards could be pinned on over the hard-rank already on the CSU coat epaulettes, and the hardboards could be removed after the formal function without having to pin the hard rank back on the CSU epaulet.  Mini medals and badges would be worn instead of large badges and ribbons over the left welt pocket of the CSU.  The brushed silver name tag would also be removed for the CSU "mess dress".  I propose only having the mini badges and mini medals on the coat--with all other badges removed--due to the more formal nature of a CSU "mess dress" (in contrast to the CSU "semi formal" uniform aready authorized), but that's just my preference--however, all else about the CSU (specialty track badges, etc) could remain the same, thus minimizing need for constantly removing and changing those items for formal occasions, if that is what is decided for the mess dress.    Again, NO CAP CUOUTS on the CSU "mess dress" due to the more formal nature of this uniform (and, as stated, I'd like to see the CAP cutouts removed from the CSU entirely--doesn't fit with the cut of the coat, IMHO, and is redundant--the coat, buttons, and devices worn on it are already CAP-destinctive). 

I had sent a proposal of this CSU "mess dress: to LtCol White a while back, but need to send an updated proposal with updated pictures now since I have some mini-medals and the appropriate bullion rank to update the CSU "mess dress" rank board pictures I made using the AFROTC hard boards.

4.) I like the idea of removing the "CAP" embroidered on the gray epaulettes for AF-style uniforms that someone else suggested previously in this thread.  Keep the gray epaulletes for the AF-style uniforms, and the blue for the CSU--no "CAP" embroidered on either, it would keep the AF-style uniform as destinctive (with gray epaulettes and no hard rank), and AF-style blue officer rank epaulette slides are already available.  I agree that it would save some money on embroidery and cost for the gray boards, too.

5.) I know some people may hate it, but KEEP THE SILVER BRAID ON THE CSU.  It is dinstictive from the AF service dress, and makes the CSU what it is--a CAP-specific service dress.  I think using AF-blue commissioning braid on the CSU may confuse some people due to the similar blue uniforms and hard rank used on the CSU.

6.) Allow non-subdued sage green cloth rank on the AF-style flight suit.  Plastic rank is becoming much harder to come by.

7.) Allow navy blue, non-subdued nametapes, "Civil Air Patrol" service tapes and rank on the BBDU and BBDU accessories.  I think the the ultramarine looks AWFUL on the BBDU.

8.) When the ABU is authorized for CAP, use the same color schemes, rank devices, etc. for CAP as the AF uses.  The only difference should be a "Civil Air Patrol" service tape.  This reduces costs and availability of rank devices for members.  If this is impossible, use ultramarine thread for CAP ABU nametapes, rank, etc. instead of the midnight blue that AF uses for the ABU nametapes, rank, etc.  All else on the ABU for CAP should be the same as AF.

In summary, I don't want to see hard rank or blue epaulet slides taken away from the CSU.  The CSU is clearly a destinctive uniform in and of itself--no other service or auxiliary, or even SDF, uses any uniform similar to the CSU of CAP.  I think the above suggestions, other than the "mess dress" (which would be optional anyways) would help to reduce uniform costs within CAP and streamline the uniforms (AF and CSU) with each other--both the AF-style and CSU would have true "mess dress" equivalents.  Except for the changes suggested above, I'd leave everything else alone!

[AlphaSigOU]

Some good suggestions, NAYBOR, but there are also some that could use improvement. Here are my suggestions:

1.) Leave the CAP cutouts where they are on the corporate service dress jacket. The CAP-specific buttons are hard to tell from a distance. The price of cutouts are not that expensive.

2.) No problem with the SGAUS MEMS badge.

3.) With the exception of the shoulder boards, I like the corporate mess dress suggestion. For economic's sake, instead of creating a new set of shoulder boards, why not use the standard AF mess dress shoulderboards? When worn with the corporate jacket, the distinction shown by the cut of the coat, buttons and CAP cutouts are such that there should be no mistaking a CAP member from an AF member at a formal occasion. Design the boards so that they can be easily slipped on and off the epaulet. You'll still have to remove the hard rank to slip them on, though. I wouldn't have a problem with silver studs or the AF-blue bow tie either. As for badges, we should follow the AF example: either regular, mid or mini size, but don't mix or match them unless there is no equivalent in that size. In this case, the cutouts can go.

4.) I'd rather see 'CAP' come back to the AF blue shoulder marks. I haven't seen it yet (others may have) but I wouldn't be surprised if someone slips blue shoulder marks on AF-style.

5.) Agreed.

6.) Agreed. Also allow wear of cloth name badges on the flight suit made to a specific CAP wing or region approved design or a standardized national color design.

7.) Agreed. We already have dark blue background grade insignia, so why not the tapes on the BBDU?

8.) Agreed.

One thing I would like to see is to eliminate the name tag schizophrenia. Dump the gray three-line nameplate and keep the blue. And get rid of the two-line blue. I don't have a problem with the brushed silver corporate service nametag, except I'd like to see it worn with AF style service dress instead of the RealAirForce® version.

Open to comments, suggestions but no flames.

[JohnKachenmeister]

I agree with dark blue nametapes on the BBDU.  The UM blue looks faded in comparison to the darker blue shirt and looks like they need to be replaced even when brand new.

Can you post a pic of the Mess-dress CSU?  (CMDU?)

[NAYBOR]

AlphaSig, I suggested the AFROTC-type board for CSU mess dress boards because they can be pinned on.  I don't know how the AF mess dress boards could be attached to the epaulettes of the CSU coat.  But, yes, if they could be attached somehow to the CSU coat, by all means, I'd rather use the AF mess dress boards.  Then use blue bow tie and silver studs and links, just like the AF mess dress.  And yes, I forgot the cloth nameplates--absolutely as you suggested.  They were approved by the NB I understamd--just need to be implemented.  I also agree with just one, blue name tag, and one brushed silver.  I'd like to see it last name on the first line for both, though.  Forgot that change I'd make too.

Kach, I will post pictures as soon as I can.  Still working on the updated "CMDU" proposal pictures.

[AlphaSigOU]

AlphaSig, I suggested the AFROTC-type board for CSU mess dress boards because they can be pinned on.  I don't know how the AF mess dress boards could be attached to the epaulettes of the CSU coat.

I don't see a problem with Vanguard making a mod to the attachment of AF mess dress boards. If I remember correctly - I don't own a mess dress, so someone correct me if I'm wrong - there is a flap of cloth under the board; the tailor attaches a couple of strips of cloth on the jacket's shoulders to allow the board to slide on. A snap under the button secures it in place. I'm thinking that's how the Squiddies do it with their boards.

[Eclipse]

In answer to the actual posting.

The golf shirt stays, and if anything should be more encouraged to match the wear of other agencies, which are increasingly performing their tasks in "agency polos".  A base staff comprised of dark blue golf shirts is more professional than everyone doing their own thing.

There is no issue with cel phones.  The language is complete now, and nowhere does it indicate that GT's have to choose between one device and another.  Anything required in the course of your duties is already authorized by the regs.  Anyone with common sense can carry a cel phone, HT, and other necessary devices without looking like Batman.

[AlphaSigOU]

Just Google it... attached is the full specification for USAFA cadet hard shoulderboards and shoulder marks.

It looks like either a thin leather or vinyl strap is attached to the bottom of the board.

[afgeo4]

AlphaSig, I suggested the AFROTC-type board for CSU mess dress boards because they can be pinned on.  I don't know how the AF mess dress boards could be attached to the epaulettes of the CSU coat.

I don't see a problem with Vanguard making a mod to the attachment of AF mess dress boards. If I remember correctly - I don't own a mess dress, so someone correct me if I'm wrong - there is a flap of cloth under the board; the tailor attaches a couple of strips of cloth on the jacket's shoulders to allow the board to slide on. A snap under the button secures it in place. I'm thinking that's how the Squiddies do it with their boards.

The officer mess dress jacket has built in attachment loops for shoulder boards. The enlisted doesn't since chevrons are worn on sleeves.

The USAF/CAP mess dress shoulder boards don't attach to regular epaulets.

[Pylon]

2.) Allow MEMS badge earned from SGAUS (http://www.sgaus.org) to be worn with CSU (if not already authorized).  Ask for permission for wear on AF-style CAP uniform (if not already authorized--unknown because some SDFs allow wear on the AF service dress within their state).  CAP members are allowed to earn this badge through SGAUS (see the weblink to the SGAUS site for the how-to).

It's not already authorized on the AF-style uniforms.  State-level awards are allowed for wear on the AF uniforms when those Guard members are working for the state.  When they become "federalized" they have to remove any state shenanigans (including ribbons). 

CAP has already clarified that, since CAP members are not working for their respective states, that state awards are not authorized for wear on the AF-style uniforms.

[JAFO78]

I feel that CAP needs to trim down the number of uniforms that they have. Just trying to keep up with what we can and can not wear is enough to drive anyone over a cliff, or jump of a hanger roof.

Keep It Simple Sir......or Mame.

[NAYBOR]

We could ask for permission to wear the MEMS badge on the CSU then.  IF the AF won't give special permission for CAP members to wear it on the AF blues, that is absolutely their domain to do so, and we will respect  and obey those orders.  But CAP NHQ can give permission for wear of the badge on the CSU combos.  Couldn't hurt to ask for specific permission to wear on both AF and CS uniforms.  The worst that can happen is we'll get a "no" from both parties (AF and CAP).  Did CAP specifically say "no" to the MEMS badge for both CSU and AF-style uniforms in their clarification? Did AF?  Has any one officially asked for specific permission to wear the MEMS badge?

[PHall]

CAP does not allow any state awards to be worn on any CAP uniform, corperate or USAF style.

[Eclipse]

We could ask for permission to wear the MEMS badge on the CSU then. 

And, once approved, the number wearing it would be statistically zero.